World Politics

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Absolutely they should IMO. The people who stand with Israel, including our President, should also do so while condemning their mistreatment of the Palestinians, the illegal settlements, and so on. And they aren't doing that either.

In my view, anybody who looks at this conflict, and is fine saying 'I support X side' without qualification fits into one of two categories:

- They need to be educated on the basic facts of the situation. Many, many people know a lot more than I do, and I can't see it that way.

- They're willing to ignore the atrocities committed by the side they support. IMO, this position is unconscionable.

Well said.

[Edward64]

The IDF clearly states the baby atrocity story is true. See starting at about 2:30.

Yes, one can still dispute the IDF account as propaganda/lies, and I'd still want a more independent report (e.g. western reporters). But for me, this has moved the dial some clicks towards being true.

https://x.com/IDF/status/1712282365924343910?s=20

[RainMaker]

It might have happened but Biden did lie about seeing photos.

[CrimsonFox]

Still annoyed that any news story involving "babies" is somehow worse. It isn't. It's more a troll to get people "madder" as if killing a baby is worse than killing anyone else. It isn't.

[GrantDawg]

I don't know, man. Beheading a baby is a special kind of sickness. There are levels of evil when it comes to murder. A soldier who has been through many conflicts and witnessed many deaths would still balk at that. It would be hard to get a reasonable person to do that.
There is still the fair contention that Israel is killing babies as well, just with bombs. That is still on the evil scale. Sadly, we accept collateral deaths in war because it is almost impossible to prevent.

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[Edward64]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Still annoyed that any news story involving "babies" is somehow worse. It isn't. It's more a troll to get people "madder" as if killing a baby is worse than killing anyone else. It isn't.

I will respectfully disagree with you, it is much worse. People should get "madder".

There is always degree, scale & context to a "crime". Using 2 extremes ... intentionally killing and beheading an Israeli baby is far worse than killing an Israeli soldier in combat.

I'm a both sides person. So yes, I agree we should always look at/evaluate both sides in degree, scale & context.

[Edward64]

Hate to say it, but I agree with Bernie in principle.

I won't say I agree with it being a war crime (need to read up more). Although cutting off food, water & fuel will degrade the Hamas' combat effectiveness some, IMO that benefit is far outweighed by the cons to the innocent Palestinians.

Maybe if there was an escape valve (e.g. Egypt), or it was clearly short term at the start of the offensive (e.g. < 1 week?), or there are UN delivered provisions to non-combatants etc. But as far as I know, none of those are realities right now.

“The targeting of civilians is a war crime, no matter who does it. Israel’s blanket denial of food, water, and other necessities to Gaza is a serious violation of international law and will do nothing but harm innocent civilians,” Sanders (I-Vt.) said in a statement Wednesday.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Edward64

The IDF clearly states the baby atrocity story is true. See starting at about 2:30.

Yes, one can still dispute the IDF account as propaganda/lies, and I'd still want a more independent report (e.g. western reporters). But for me, this has moved the dial some clicks towards being true.

Okay, nvm then.

Israeli official says government cannot confirm babies were beheaded in Hamas attack | CNN

The Israeli government has not confirmed the specific claim that Hamas attackers cut off the heads of babies during their shock attack on Saturday, an Israeli official told CNN, contradicting a previous public statement by the Prime Minister’s office.

“There have been cases of Hamas militants carrying out beheadings and other ISIS-style atrocities. However, we cannot confirm if the victims were men or women, soldiers or civilians, adults or children,” the official said.

[Edward64]

I've created below. Thought it was time for a dedicated thread.

No problem if you want to continue using this Politics thread. I can delete the new one.


Israeli-Hamas War (Oct 2023) - Front Office Football Central

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Just another day killing people in the name of histories #1 cause of death and destruction.

Exactly!

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I don't know, man. Beheading a baby is a special kind of sickness. There are levels of evil when it comes to murder. A soldier who has been through many conflicts and witnessed many deaths would still balk at that. It would be hard to get a reasonable person to do that.
There is still the fair contention that Israel is killing babies as well, just with bombs. That is still on the evil scale. Sadly, we accept collateral deaths in war because it is almost impossible to prevent.

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This is just a way to excuse one side from committing the same crime. You view dropping a bomb as "cleaner" because the pilot doesn't get dirty when the child is obliterated. I'm sure Hamas would prefer bombing people if they had the military capability.

Whether it's by knife, gun, bomb, etc, killing children is abhorrent and there isn't really a scale of acceptable ways to do it vs unacceptable ways.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

This is just a way to excuse one side from committing the same crime. You view dropping a bomb as "cleaner" because the pilot doesn't get dirty when the child is obliterated. I'm sure Hamas would prefer bombing people if they had the military capability.

Whether it's by knife, gun, bomb, etc, killing children is abhorrent and there isn't really a scale of acceptable ways to do it vs unacceptable ways.

A person targeting a missile to hit an enemy does not have in his purpose to kill a baby. A person with a knife in his hand will only kill the baby if he has that purpose. It is a special kind of psychopath that would be able to do that to a baby. Even harden killers would balk at such. There is even in legal terms escalators to the charge of murder based on the how and who.
It also doesn't justify the same crime at all, just as nothing Israel has done justified it happening to the baby. It does prove Hamas is a terrorist organization, and anyone cheering them on has blood on their hands.

[miked]

Let's not forget that Hamas uses children as human shields as well. They routinely conduct military operations from schools and hospitals and use children to shield their conduct. They also have no problems with strapping bombs to children as well (when they are not teaching them to hate and kill Jews).

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

A person targeting a missile to hit an enemy does not have in his purpose to kill a baby. A person with a knife in his hand will only kill the baby if he has that purpose. It is a special kind of psychopath that would be able to do that to a baby. Even harden killers would balk at such. There is even in legal terms escalators to the charge of murder based on the how and who.
It also doesn't justify the same crime at all, just as nothing Israel has done justified it happening to the baby. It does prove Hamas is a terrorist organization, and anyone cheering them on has blood on their hands.

Incredibly naive to think the bombs leveling residential neighborhoods would somehow avoid children. They know exactly what they're doing and they know people in the West will downplay it because it's done from a distance. You're just compartmentalized which methods of murdering children is acceptable.

Its like saying what Timothy McVeigh did was more acceptable than Adam Lanza. Both are unrepentant psychopaths who had different means at their disposal.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Incredibly naive to think the bombs leveling residential neighborhoods would somehow avoid children. They know exactly what they're doing and they know people in the West will downplay it because it's done from a distance. You're just compartmentalized which methods of murdering children is acceptable.

Its like saying what Timothy McVeigh did was more acceptable than Adam Lanza. Both are unrepentant psychopaths who had different means at their disposal.

I condemn the acts of Israel. I do believe they go too far in their actions against the Palestine people. I have no problem in doing that. I just believe most reasonable people can see beheading a baby as a level of extreme that is beyond the pale.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by miked

Let's not forget that Hamas uses children as human shields as well. They routinely conduct military operations from schools and hospitals and use children to shield their conduct. They also have no problems with strapping bombs to children as well (when they are not teaching them to hate and kill Jews).

Lets not forget that's a common excuse used by the West when bombing civilians. Each time the US would drone strike a hospital, they'd conveniently excuse it as enemies using human shields.

It's 2 million people stacked in a 25 mile radius. There aren't a lot of places that don't contain civilians.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I condemn the acts of Israel. I do believe they go too far in their actions against the Palestine people. I have no problem in doing that. I just believe most reasonable people can see beheading a baby as a level of extreme that is beyond the pale.

I think imprisoning people with little to no access to basic resources or clean water is a level of extreme that is beyond the pale. Rationing out how many calories they are allowed and blackmailing them into providing intelligence to get basic health care for their children is depraved. Then getting blown to smithereens whenever Israel decides it wants to.

The beheading story is abhorrent if true (not sure why people like Biden felt the need to lie about it). But the conditions in Gaza over the past 20 years is some of the most depraved shit we've seen since the Holocaust. Seriously, you should read about what life is like in Gaza from one of the reporters who have had access (even the ones that were murdered for reporting on it).

[GrantDawg]

I agree.

Edit: Just to add that I don't believe that in anyway justifies terror. Hamas is a terrorist organization that should be torn down. I also believe in the necessity of a Jewish state and there should also be a Palestinian free state.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Not sure he lied about it as CNN is showing photos now. They are bad. I do agree that any type of war killing of civilians is bad and having dropped bombs personally from a B52 during Desert storm I am unfortunately an expert.

His staff came out and said he lied about it right after.




[GrantDawg]

Argentina just elected Javier Milei, an "Anarco-Capitalist" who promises to slash the Federal government to nothing. A "Libertarian" that is for banning Abortion and curtailing the press.


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[miami_fan]

The first time I saw that guy, I though Boris Johnson has gone undercover into hiding in Buenos Aires.

[MIJB#19]

Early exit polls in the Netherlands are pointing to a landslide extreme right victory in the elections that will lead to our new government. Personally, I can't understand why we're doing this to our own country. Kind of gutted am I at the moment.

[RainMaker]

I think there is some understandable backlash to NATO and the Ukraine War in some of these Western European countries. Italy, Finland, and Sweden already went to the right. German polls are looking like we'll see similar results.

Fighting proxy wars from the other side of the globe is easier than when you live right next to it.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think there is some understandable backlash to NATO and the Ukraine War in some of these Western European countries. Italy, Finland, and Sweden already went to the right. German polls are looking like we'll see similar results.

Can you explain why you think the Russian invasion of Ukraine would in any way make people feel like siding with Russia or voting "right"? Or did you mean the opposite here?

For example, the general public here in the Netherlands sees the NATO as being overrun and dictated by the USA, with the perception of the USA being a country with only right wing politics (yes, even the Clintons, Obamas and Bidens). Voting anti-NATO would mean a shift to the left, no?



What I'm sensing is that people in the Netherlands (in particular, I just have no idea how it is in Finland or Sweden or Italy) are sick of hearing how we need to solve the climate change problems all by ourselves, the general public feels (spearheaded by Wilders) it is time that big countries like the USA and China stop sabotaging things and start being part of the solution. Which makes it kind of weird that the social media established in those 2 countries help(ed) popularity of the right wing politics with their own algorithms.

A large group of people have voted for anti-EU sentiments, sick of us being a EU sponsor, while extreme right wing lead countries like Poland and Hungary get that money. Which makes it super weird that the Hungarian president is happy about the right wing move here, he should count his money better and actually pray for the left wing in the Netherlands. Not to mention the migration problem (which has been cause to fall of the government and requiring new elections only 2 1/2 years after the previous elections), which is big issue in the entire EU.

And in particular in the Netherlands, there's some local stuff going on that helped shake things up. The traditional establishment in the Netherlands has been caught backstabbed a popular hard working politician (Omtzigt) shortly after the previous elections in 2021, trying to politically eliminate him, right after during the campaigns proclaiming to stop being backstabbing politicians. He's still standing strong now, having the 4th biggest party from out of nowhere, while those parties got the judgement from the electorate.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Can you explain why you think the Russian invasion of Ukraine would in any way make people feel like siding with Russia or voting "right"? Or did you mean the opposite here?

For example, the general public here in the Netherlands sees the NATO as being overrun and dictated by the USA, with the perception of the USA being a country with only right wing politics (yes, even the Clintons, Obamas and Bidens). Voting anti-NATO would mean a shift to the left, no?

Rainmaker can speak for himself but I would say that voting anti-NATO is more of a right wing talking point than a left wing one here in the U.S. I also saw that Wilders's position on Ukraine is "the Netherlands should stop providing arms to Ukraine, because it needs them to protect itself." Again more of a right wing though that has begun to change recently. Now I am not saying there are not those that voted in a manner to side with Russia. But I know from talking to family and friends in Germany and Italy there are people who are voting for not being forced to side with Ukraine.

[Edward64]

According to wiki, we are friendly with Guyana. No idea what that would translate to if Venezuela got too touchy-feely.

Essequibo: Venezuelans approve takeover of oil-rich region of Guyana in referendum | CNN

Venezuelans voted by a wide margin Sunday to approve the takeover of an oil-rich region in neighboring Guyana – the latest escalation in a long-running territorial dispute between the two countries, fueled by the recent discovery of vast offshore energy resources.

It’s unclear what steps the Venezuelan government would take to follow through on the result, and any attempt to assert a claim would certainly be met with international resistance.

Still, the escalating rhetoric has prompted troop movements in the region and saber-rattling in both countries, drawing comparisons from Guyanese leaders to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Many residents in the predominantly indigenous region are reportedly on edge.

[albionmoonlight]

Post by @groguspeaknyc

View on Threads

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

The least racist guy in Poland.

[Edward64]

No idea if this will work, but interesting economic experiment.

Argentina on Tuesday announced a sharp devaluation of its currency and cuts to energy and transportation subsidies as part of shock adjustments new President Javier Milei says are needed to deal with an economic "emergency."

Economy Minister Luis Caputo said in a televised message that the Argentine peso will be devalued by 50% from 400 pesos to the U.S. dollar, to 800 pesos to the dollar.

"For few months, we're going to be worse than before," he said.

It comes two days after the libertarian Milei was sworn in as president of the second largest economy in South America, and immediately warned of tough measures.

Milei said the country didn't have time to consider other alternatives.

[Edward64]

Ecuador is #6 for Best Places to Retire 2024

Best Places to Retire in 2024: The Annual Global Retirement Index


Bad timing all things considered.

Ecuador declares war on gangs after TV attack
Masked men threaten journalists in a newsroom as the government moves against crime groups.

[Edward64]

Good luck in your elections tomorrow, Taiwan. You basically have to pick being your own country or move towards China.

Either way, you are going to be less important to the US and rest of world in about 20+ years when you won't have the monopoly on chips & foundries. So, figure it out.

Taiwan votes for a new president against a backdrop of growing China threats | CNN

Tsai’s current vice president, Lai Ching-te, is hoping to win a third term for the ruling DPP, which champions Taiwan’s de-facto sovereignty and separate identity from China. That would be unprecedented in the island’s nearly three decades of democratic history and represent a further rejection by Taiwanese voters of Beijing’s strongarm tactics.

Hou Yu-ih, a mayor and former police chief, is the candidate for the main opposition party Kuomintang (KMT), which traditionally favors closer cross-strait ties. A victory for the KMT would be welcome to Beijing and signal that voters might want to deescalate tensions.

The third contender, Ko Wen-je, hails from the Taiwan People’s Party (TPP), which he founded in 2019 to challenge the island’s political duopoly. Ko also favors closer ties with China but says he will be less deferential to Beijing than the KMT.

[Edward64]

The DPP incumbent party is leading in the presidential elections. So more tense relations with China.

Right now DPP, KMT and TPP are 41% - 33% - 25%.

[Edward64]

Iran-Pakistan increased tensions are interesting. Never knew about the tension at the border area.

Iran missile attack: Pakistan condemns deadly strike on its territory as tensions spike across region | CNN

Pakistan has strongly condemned an Iranian airstrike inside its borders that killed two children, calling it an “unprovoked violation of its airspace” and warning of retaliation.

Iran said it used “precision missile and drone strikes,” to destroy two strongholds of the Sunni militant group Jaish al-Adl, known in Iran as Jaish al-Dhulm, in the Koh-e-Sabz area of Pakistan’s southwest Balochistan province, according to Iran’s state-aligned Tasnim news agency.

Shia vs Sunni stuff.

Koh-e-Sabz — about 50 kilometers (31 miles) from Pakistan’s border with Iran — is known to be the home of Jaish-ul-Adl’s former second-in-command Mullah Hashim, who was killed in clashes with Iranian forces in Sarawan, an Iranian region adjacent to Panjgur, in 2018.

Last month, Iran accused Jaish al-Adl militants of storming a police station in the Iranian province of Sistan and Baluchistan, which resulted in the deaths of 11 Iranian police officers, according to Tasnim.

Jaish al-Adl, or Army of Justice, is a separatist militant group that operates on both sides of the border and has previously claimed responsibility for attacks against Iranian targets. Its stated goal is the independence of Iran’s Sistan and Baluchistan province.

[GrantDawg]

Pakistan has responded by bombing inside Iran with missiles and planes. Who had shooting war between Iran and Pakistan on your bingo card for 2024?

[Edward64]

This should be interesting. No idea who to root for.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Edward64

This should be interesting. No idea who to root for.

Pakistan has its problems, but Iran has been the chief destabilizing force in the region for decades. Likely this goes no where further than a couple of air raids (hopefully), but remember that Pakistan is a nuclear power and I don't think they would be as hesitant to use nukes if really provoked.

[Ghost Econ]

Country relations are so weird. Like I watched the 50 over Cricket world cup last year that was held in India. Since Pakistan was in it, their games had to be held near the border for safety reasons. Like it just seems weird that relations are so hostile that cricket players aren't safe in the other country. And to think that could have possibly been avoided if a bunch of tea drinking cousin fuckers hadn't hastily drawn an arbitrary line on a map 75 years ago.

[Edward64]

Basically, the Myanmar military junta has been experiencing defeats on the battlefield. Won't be surprise if it all collapses.

Myanmar belongs to China's sphere of influence and I've read in other articles that China has been somewhat supporting the rebels. The US doesn't really have much strategic interest. No idea what a post-junta will look like.

Myanmar's army is losing - and facing fire from a militant monk


And just for some comic relief, if you haven't seen the video yet ...

[Edward64]

NPR had a clip about Mexico elections in June. Essentially, only a small % of legal/illegal immigrants in the US vote in the Mexico elections. And they could impact elections if they voted in greater numbers.

Looks like current party will win the Presidency. Article polling shows big double digit leads right now. She'll be the first female President.

Poll Tracker: Mexico's 2024 Presidential Vote | AS/COA

The frontrunner for López Obrador’s governing Morena coalition, Let's Keep Making History (Seguimos Haciendo Historia/SHH), is former Mexico City Mayor Claudia Sheinbaum.

[Edward64]

Have no idea who to root for, no idea who is the lesser to two evils. I don't think either are that friendly to the US.

Pakistan election: Final results give Khan-backed candidates lead

The final results in Pakistan's general election have put independent candidates backed by jailed ex-PM Imran Khan's PTI party in the lead.

Independents won 101 of the National Assembly seats. BBC analysis shows 93 of them went to PTI-backed candidates. That puts them ahead of ex-PM Nawaz Sharif's PMLN who won 75 and it is unclear who will form a government.

As wrangling continues, independent candidates who did not win have flooded courts with vote-rigging allegations. Both the PTI, which was blocked from taking part in the election, and Mr Sharif's PMLN say they want to form the next government.

If guess this shows it was a relatively free & fair election?

The result was a surprise as most observers had expected Mr Sharif's party - widely seen as having the powerful military's backing - to win given Mr Khan had been jailed on charges ranging from corruption to having married illegally and his party was barred from the ballot sheet.

[Edward64]

Assuming the opposition is more moderate, good news for Turkiye. Erdogan seems to have moderated some from several years ago, but yeah, dictator for life isn't good for a NATO member.

Turkey election results: Opposition to retain key cities in blow to Erdogan | AP News

Turkey’s main opposition party retained its control over key cities and made huge gains elsewhere in Sunday’s local elections, preliminary results showed, in a major upset to President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who had set his sights on retaking control of those urban areas.

With more than 80% of ballot boxes counted, incumbent Istanbul Mayor Ekrem Imamoglu, of the Republican People’s Party, or CHP, was leading by a wide margin in Turkey’s largest city and economic hub, according to the state-run Anadolu Agency. Mansur Yavas, the mayor of the capital, Ankara, retained his seat with a stunning 25-point difference over his challenger, the results indicated.

In all, the CHP won the municipalities of 36 of Turkey’s 81 provinces, according to Anadolu, making inroads into many strongholds of Erdogan’s party. It gained 37% of the votes nationwide, compared to 36% for the president’s party, marking the CHP’s greatest electoral victory since Erdogan came to power two decades ago.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Have no idea who to root for, no idea who is the lesser to two evils. I don't think either are that friendly to the US.

Pakistan election: Final results give Khan-backed candidates lead

If guess this shows it was a relatively free & fair election?

It was a rigged election. They locked up Khan on bogus charges and banned a large number of candidates. Violent assaults on political gatherings and making it really tough to vote in certain areas. Plus, there is a thing called a Form 45 which is essentially the results from each poling location that were put online and showed PTI winning a large majority of the seats.

The whole thing was a mess because Pakistani military didn't think Khan and PTI had a shot to win. Locking everyone up and spreading a ton of propaganda seemed to secure victory. But Khan and his party had a strong presence online and with younger people that they didn't expect. It's why after the results started leaking, they shutdown the internet. The Intercept did great reporting on it and got their hands on the Form 45s from election day showing Khan and PTI winning.

The United States supported and helped facilitate the coup. They are on the side of the Pakistani military, ISI, and the new dictator. Khan is pretty moderate and not really a bad guy for America, but it came down to Ukraine. America loves democracy so much that they have to install dictators in certain countries to preserve democracy in the white country that isn't even really a democracy anymore either. At some point they'll explain what the actual goal is here I'm sure (it's making defense companies money).

[NobodyHere]

Do we know that the charges against Khan are bogus?

[RainMaker]

The United States sent a cypher to Pakistan asking the military to remove Khan from power. Khan simply told everyone about the cypher and that the US was trying to have him illegally removed. They claim him referencing that cypher compromised intelligence or whatever. All absurd since he was the acting Prime Minister. The western media got a hold of an internal ISI document saying it was total bullshit.

They're trying to tack on some other stuff like saying his marriage violated Islamic law because he didn't wait long enough to marry his wife (he got 7 years I think for that). They also went after him and his wife for selling a watch and not declaring it. Although the person they claim bought the watch denies he ever bought the watch.

In a nutshell, Khan was the democratically elected leader of the country and America had him removed from power by the military because he wasn't subservient enough for us on Ukraine. There's some other shit about us covering for a billion dollar IMF loan as payment for his removal, but it just gets real complicated.

[RainMaker]

I don't care for Khan or anything but he was the choice of the people and if we're going to pretend to care about democracy, we should abide by that. He also really wasn't bad or anything. He's pretty moderate for Pakistan.

[Edward64]

Indian elections, planned to take 44 days to finish.

My pure guess is Modi will win a third term.

India election 2024: A visual guide to voting in the world’s largest democracy | CNN

Voting begins on Friday, April 19, and will continue through June 1, with results announced on June 4.