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Old 12-10-2018, 02:44 PM   #651
JonInMiddleGA
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Originally Posted by Butter View Post
Considering he was in baseball for 72 years, yes.

That was my first thought too, but then I looked it up. Comparing to the guys Logan mentioned (and adding 3 other HOF'ers)

Smith 4x in 18 seasons
Rivera 3x in 19
Hoffman 2x in 18
Eck 2x in 12 (as reliever)
Fingers 3x in 17
Gossage 3x in 21 (as reliever)
Sutter 5x in 12
Wilhelm 0x in 19

In that regard, his ratio of leading the league is on par or better than all but one
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Old 12-10-2018, 03:31 PM   #652
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It's really weird... I'll admit that I don't follow baseball nearly as much as I used to. I buy the MLB package every year and watch quite a bit of baseball, but I don't really get deep into it like I used to. But am I crazy that baseball coverage seems to be dying out? Is this another example of ESPN setting the agenda like they did with the NHL 10-15 years ago? I know ESPN dumped their nightly Baseball Tonight show and laid off a bunch of baseball writers. Now baseball seems out of sight, out of mind.

My point is, I had no idea this first round of old timer HoF voting was happening, nor was I aware that the winter meetings started today. And I had to google it to find out - I just knew the winter meetings usually happened between Thanksgiving and Christmas.

You are not alone with this one.
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Old 12-10-2018, 03:41 PM   #653
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Another one is the Goldschmidt trade. If I didn't follow a bunch of baseball people on Twitter, I'm not sure I would have known about it for a couple of days.
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Old 12-10-2018, 04:15 PM   #654
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Another one is the Goldschmidt trade. If I didn't follow a bunch of baseball people on Twitter, I'm not sure I would have known about it for a couple of days.

It was on the top 3-4 headlines on espn dot com for at least 12-24 hours after it was announced. Similar with the Baines & Smith news, that was top 1-2 items for at least a night once it hit the wires.

My point being simply that if they were trying to bury it entirely then that wouldn't seem likely to be the case.

I suspect the difference in perception here may come from online vs on-air.
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Old 12-10-2018, 06:05 PM   #655
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I think it has more to do with where online I get my news nowadays. I haven't visited ESPN.com (or any other sports news sites) in at least 5 years. All scores I get on my phone app and news is usually on Twitter which is hit or miss depending on when I'm on. I get push notifications for teams I follow but I try not to get overwhelmed with all sorts of league notifications. Years ago MLB Rumors was a go-to site but I just don't use the web like that anymore.
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Old 12-11-2018, 09:02 AM   #656
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In my own day to day "universe", the current MLB topics are definitely getting a lot of play and I'd say even beyond the NBA. That's probably because the Mets are being active, the Yankees are being quiet (which is news), and the top names both in terms of FAs and trade candidates feel more high profile than usual. Think any differences are just driven by how you consume it.
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Old 12-11-2018, 09:07 AM   #657
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Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA View Post
That was my first thought too, but then I looked it up. Comparing to the guys Logan mentioned (and adding 3 other HOF'ers)

Smith 4x in 18 seasons
Rivera 3x in 19
Hoffman 2x in 18
Eck 2x in 12 (as reliever)
Fingers 3x in 17
Gossage 3x in 21 (as reliever)
Sutter 5x in 12
Wilhelm 0x in 19

In that regard, his ratio of leading the league is on par or better than all but one

Interesting.

I stand by the joke.
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Old 12-11-2018, 10:33 AM   #658
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Smith makes sense solely from the standpoint of "representation" of his position. Edgar Martinez, if he doesn't get voted in, will eventually get in for the same reason, although he has the stats to back it up and should already be in.

I think what we're going to see is an over-reaction to the lack of 80s/early 90s players in the HoF. That era is under-represented. I'm not sure that is what the HoF is about, though. Harold Baines, Fred McGriff, Dave Steib, etc., were all big names at the time, but that doesn't necessarily translate to HoF-worthy.
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Old 12-11-2018, 11:48 AM   #659
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Interesting.
I stand by the joke.

Cool by me.

Was just one of those things where I had no idea what I'd find until looking it up & figured since I'd done that part I might as well share.

fwiw (which ain't much) I was fine with Smith going in, rolled my eyes about Baines.
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Old 12-11-2018, 12:11 PM   #660
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I can't believe Harper is going to get such a big contract. I read an article today that I think summed it up pretty well.

He's not as good as Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays so why is he going to get the biggest contract in MLB history. I know he and Machado will fight over that but still...

He's not good enough to warrant the contract he is going to get.

EDIT - Just another thought, Harper's not even close to being the best player in the game. You can't even debate it. So, why such a big contract? I don't get it.
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Old 12-11-2018, 12:17 PM   #661
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I am OK with Lee Smith, he was one of the pioneers for the closer role and still ranks 3rd in saves in MLB history. He also routinely pitched 80-100 IP in that role - something unheard of now. If you compare him to the current active leader (Craig Kimbrel), you would see that they both averaged 68 games per 162 game average. Kimbrel, however, pitches just 67 IP in those 68 games, while Lee Smith averaged 85 IP in the 68 games. There weren't many 1-2 out saves in Smith's time, so he had a lot more wear and tear on his arm.

As for Baines, his election is just crazy. He averaged .289, 22 HR and 93 RBI over his career (while playing DH). His career totals are 2800 hits and 384 HR. His best year was .304-29-94 with a WAR of 4.3. Last year alone, 40 guys had a WAR of 4.4 or better including such HOF shoe-ins as Aaron Hicks, Jed Lowrie, Mitch Haniger and Andrelton Simmons. It's a joke we have a baseball Hall of Fame with Harold Baines, but no McGwire, Bonds or Clemens. Heck, Carlos Delgado had 473 total HRs, an average season of .280-38-120 and five seasons with WAR values between 4.5 and 7.3. I don't think of him as a Hall of Famer and his numbers destroy Baines.
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Old 12-11-2018, 01:30 PM   #662
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I am OK with Lee Smith, he was one of the pioneers for the closer role and still ranks 3rd in saves in MLB history. He also routinely pitched 80-100 IP in that role - something unheard of now. If you compare him to the current active leader (Craig Kimbrel), you would see that they both averaged 68 games per 162 game average. Kimbrel, however, pitches just 67 IP in those 68 games, while Lee Smith averaged 85 IP in the 68 games. There weren't many 1-2 out saves in Smith's time, so he had a lot more wear and tear on his arm.
Also worth noting that he was striking out guys at a high rate before that became common. Back in his era having a K per IP was rare even for relievers. Not so much these days. I wonder how much more dominating he would have looked had he been pitching currently.
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Old 12-11-2018, 01:59 PM   #663
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I think it was a given that Lee Smith was going to end up in the HoF at some point.

Baines blows my mind, but this is likely a case of La Russa and Reinsdorf looking out for one of their guys.

The committee is a joke and the entire Veteran's Committee or Eras Committee or whatever they want to call it in future has long outlived its usefulness. The initial concept was a sound idea. Get the guys that slipped through the cracks as our understanding of the value of players increased. Keeping it together as an annual voting body at this point serves no purpose other than to make sure committee member agendas are met.
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Old 12-11-2018, 01:59 PM   #664
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I don't know how many of you subscribe to The Athletic (if you're a sports fan, you really should) there's a great article looking at the shift and presenting compelling arguments for why that's not the real issue that should be addressed:

https://theathletic.com/703736/2018/...s-strike-zone/

If you don't subscribe, the super-condensed summary is data shows shifts don't seem to be impacting the rate of balls in play falling in for hits; the real issue with pace of play and hit frequency is strikeouts, and the best solution is to raise the bottom of the strike zone.
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Old 12-11-2018, 02:03 PM   #665
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I don't know how many of you subscribe to The Athletic (if you're a sports fan, you really should) there's a great article looking at the shift and presenting compelling arguments for why that's not the real issue that should be addressed:

https://theathletic.com/703736/2018/...s-strike-zone/

If you don't subscribe, the super-condensed summary is data shows shifts don't seem to be impacting the rate of balls in play falling in for hits; the real issue with pace of play and hit frequency is strikeouts, and the best solution is to raise the bottom of the strike zone.

Yeah, as I said, I'm not sure an outright ban of the shift is the best approach. I do think the shift is having an unhealthy impact on the game and as we get more accurate and easily attainable batted ball data it's only going to get worse.

I just find it somewhat amusing many of the same people bemoaning the increase in strikeouts and all or nothing approaches of hitters don't want anything done about shifts.

"Learn to do something different" isn't the answer. If it were that easy to do these things we'd have a hell of a lot more elite level professional athletes.
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Old 12-11-2018, 02:15 PM   #666
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I think Corcoran puts forward a good argument for why the bottom of the strike zone should be raised.

That said, there's a more fundamental issue he doesn't talk about which is that folks have figured out that swings with more loft to them are more valuable. The tradeoff in more strikeouts and less contact is outweighed by the increased value of the hits they get. I think it's a given that raising the bottom of the strike zone would result in fewer K's and more walks, hits, home runs and scoring overall. The question is whether that's the goal that the game wants to work towards. There's also the question of what other potentially unintended consequences would result. I know a lot of fans - myself included - are really tiring of the trend towards bigger and bigger bullpens and more frequent pitching changes, and anything that drives even more scoring would likely push this trend even further.

I really don't know what the best overall approaches are to improving the game, but I do know that my interest level in baseball is much less than it used to be. I used to watch the playoffs and World Series every year; now, I pretty much never watch a game that isn't the Mariners, and even then I don't watch the M's nearly as much as I used to.
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Old 12-11-2018, 02:38 PM   #667
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but I do know that my interest level in baseball is much less than it used to be.

Contract at least 2 (if not 4) teams & improve the quality of pitching across the board, that'd go a fair way toward restoring my interest.

It's not just about "increased bullpen use", it's that a lot of those pitchers being used simply aren't major league caliber pitchers.

But instead they'll continue to dumb down a once-great game & do whatever they can to cater to the short-attention span / homerun derby crowd
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Old 12-12-2018, 03:55 PM   #668
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3 years for Cutch seems like 1 year too long. I love him, he plays a lot of games. I guess something like 2.5/2/1 WAR would make him worth the deal? I bet he gets salary dumped at some point
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Old 12-12-2018, 08:02 PM   #669
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Tony La Russa calls Harold Baines detractors weak

Based on La Russa's response I'm going to say getting Harold Baines in the Hall of Fame was something he had an emotional investment in.

Quote:
"Harold Baines is a Hall of Famer and it's a shame that he's being looked at as not right," La Russa said. "In the '80s and '90s, almost all of the stats that people trust, he was in the top five -- for 20 years. He drove in 100 runs late in his career and he drove them in early. Game-winning RBIs, he's up there with the best of them. He had a very distinguished career."

At one point Russo brought up Al Oliver, who had similar career statistics to Baines (and a higher career WAR, 43.7 to 38.7).

"Al Oliver is not better than he is, no disrespect to Al Oliver," La Russa responded. "I used to watch you because I thought you knew the game. I'm going to start calling you clueless."
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Old 12-12-2018, 08:02 PM   #670
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I've never thought to myself....Harold Baines is a Hall of Famer. Nope.
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Old 12-12-2018, 08:06 PM   #671
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I've never thought to myself....Harold Baines is a Hall of Famer. Nope.

I distinctly remember there was some panic setting in with sportswriters in the late 90s and early 2000s because Baines was approaching 3,000 hits and that means automatic induction into the HoF in everyone's eyes. The problem was Baines obviously wasn't a HoF caliber player and this was going to cause of HoF crisis of sorts.

They never seemed to realize or acknowledge you simply had to not vote for him if you didn't think he was a HoF caliber player. 3,000 hits or not.
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Old 12-12-2018, 09:16 PM   #672
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""In the '80s and '90s, almost all of the stats that people trust, he was in the top five -- for 20 years."

That's just patently false.
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Old 12-12-2018, 09:23 PM   #673
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I was listening to that interview and it was painful. I love Maddog, he didn't relent. TL came off sounding like an out of touch old fart
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Old 12-12-2018, 09:55 PM   #674
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I’d have Franco or Vizquel ahead of Baines if we wanted the HOF to be full of long term meh guys.
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Old 12-21-2018, 03:38 PM   #675
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The Rangers, A's, and Rays have a three team deal where the centerpiece is Jurickson Profar going to the A's. He was considered untouchable for trades three or four seasons ago.
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Old 12-21-2018, 06:06 PM   #676
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Kemp, Puig, and Wood to the Reds for Homer Bailey and prospects.

I'm guessing Harper is going to be a Dodger.
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Old 12-21-2018, 06:07 PM   #677
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Also the Dodgers made a deal with a few guys you may have heard of that can't be viewed in any other lens other than making room for Harper.
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Old 12-21-2018, 06:16 PM   #678
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Id have Franco or Vizquel ahead of Baines if we wanted the HOF to be full of long term meh guys.
I don't think Vizquel is meh. I don't know if he's a hall of famer but he was truly elite in one aspect and has a claim as the best defensive shortstop ever (though most would go with Ozzie, and most ESP.N announcers with Jeter). Harold Baines is just utterly forgettable.
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Old 12-21-2018, 06:16 PM   #679
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Sounded like the Dodgers were just going to cut Bailey?
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Old 12-21-2018, 06:24 PM   #680
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Also the Dodgers made a deal with a few guys you may have heard of that can't be viewed in any other lens other than making room for Harper.

Could make deals for Kluber, a different OF, and a catcher
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Old 12-21-2018, 06:33 PM   #681
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I don't think Vizquel is meh. I don't know if he's a hall of famer but he was truly elite in one aspect and has a claim as the best defensive shortstop ever (though most would go with Ozzie, and most ESP.N announcers with Jeter). Harold Baines is just utterly forgettable.

There really isn't any data that backs up Visquel being elite though. He was solid, but the hype was entirely based on the eye test.

Ozzie had 10 years worth 4 or more WAR. Visquel had 2. Visquel made 3 all star teams. Ozzie made 15.


Jay Jaffe breaks it down thoroughly:

JAWS and the 2019 Hall of Fame Ballot: Omar Vizquel | FanGraphs Baseball

Quote:
Baseball-Reference credits Vizquel as being 129 runs above average for his career defensively, via a combination of Total Zone (+80 runs through 2002) and Defensive Runs Saved (+49 from 2003-12). Ultimate Zone Rating credits him as 47 runs above average as well for the latter period. The combined total doesnt blow the doors off the shrine, ranking 18th all-time among shortstops, better than 12 of the 20 Hall of Famers at the position.
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Old 01-09-2019, 01:40 AM   #682
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Someone should get creative with Machado or Harper. Give them sometging like 10/300 with another 100 in escrow. If the player wants to opt out at any point, he forfeits a certain percentage of the escrow. If the team wants to move on for an obvious non injury skills decline they can release the player with 1 years severance and the remaining escrow. Something like that.
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:20 PM   #683
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The Royals are very busy in the off-season......playing Mario Kart on the Jumbotron.

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Old 01-15-2019, 08:24 PM   #684
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John Wetteland arrested on child sex abuse charges. Allegedly had a child perform sex acts on him intermittently starting over 10 years ago when the child was 4.
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Old 01-15-2019, 08:57 PM   #685
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John Wetteland arrested on child sex abuse charges. Allegedly had a child perform sex acts on him intermittently starting over 10 years ago when the child was 4.

Hang the f***er.
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Old 01-16-2019, 04:13 AM   #686
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Hang the f***er.

Trial by jury, first.

Then hang him, sure. By the scrote.
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