RPI-Fan's Law School Admissions (Hopefully!) Dynasty

[RPI-Fan]

So, from a thread or two on the main forum, some of you may or may not know that I am in the process of applying to law school. While I went from completely waffling on whether I wanted to go several months ago, at this time I am really committed to going to the best place I can and earning my J.D. with as good grades as possible, and figuring things out from there (whether it be industry, firm, consulting, graduate school, or medical school). So, I am in the process of finalizing my materials that go through the central law school processing cartel (errr... service) known as LSAC.

Actually, LSAC is quite useful. Even though they charge fees, the fact that they manage your LSAT score, your transcripts, your recommendations, essays, and your applications is quite useful. Basically, you have to fill out one "full" application and the rest are extraordinarily easy to get out the door. In addition, they give you the option of furnishing your LSAT scores to universities, which can be remarkably helpful (more on this in a bit).

So, anyways, I know exactly two things about what decisions I will make for law school at this time...

1) I will go to Yale if I am admitted.
2) I will go to Harvard if I am admitted and not admitted to Yale.

Other than that, it is sort of wide open. Fortunately, the schools have been helping me a lot recently to narrow things down. One and a half months ago Duke sent me a fee waiver and invitation to apply; normally they wouldn't have been on my list for whatever reason, but after this offer and thinking about their location and the fact that I could probably play club hockey or soccer there, and that I relatively like the South, I decided I would definitely apply there, and in fact they moved toward the top of my list. In the following month, I've gotten about a dozen or so fee waiver offers. Some of them are junk law schools, but some of them are quite Ok. The notable ones are (in roughly chronological order) Illinois, Texas-Austin, UCLA, Indiana, and just recently Columbia. The Columbia waiver is quite a surprise and again is another place I'll now apply that I hadn't planned on.

So anyways, basically the purpose of this dynasty is to jot down thoughts on the variety of options and basically track the timeline on my decision-making process. I'm not sure, but I think I have a chance to get into Yale and Harvard despite my LSAT and GPA only being at the 25th percentile of their enrolled students. The reason for this is the fact that I have an engineering background, specifically civil engineering, which frankly isn't all that common of a major. I've read that engineering is kind of given a GPA "boost" by default when applications are reviewed, so my GPA may not be as troublesome as it appears. So between the GPA boost, my reasonable LSAT score, and my unique academic background (I also have a letter of recommendation from the New York State Attorney General's Office from a unique internship position that I work(ed) in), I have a remote chance of getting into Harvard and Yale.

Now, that isn't to say my odds are good. I'd give myself about a 10% chance of Yale, and a 20% chance of Harvard. But if you multiply those together, that means I have a 28% chance of getting into one of the two, which is certainly not laughable. And beyond that, I give myself about a 75% chance of Columbia, 80% chance of Duke, and 90+% chance anywhere else I desire.

So at this point I think my list is:

1) Yale
2) Harvard
3) Duke
4) Columbia
5) ???

(5) will probably be filled by whichever of the highly-ranked state schools can make me some kind of enticing offer, financially or what they have for club athletics or otherwise. Columbia would be ahead of Duke on my list except for the fact that I absolutely hate living in big cities. In fact, it should probably be lower on the list for this reason. But it isn't, for now. I suspect that will change once I get a better idea what is going on with the land-grant highly-ranked state schools.

More shortly, if anybody reads!...


Application Tracker

Yale (?)
Stanford (?)
Harvard (?)
Duke (IN - November 2, 2007)
Virginia (?)
Michigan (IN - December 3, 2007)
Cal (?)
Cornell (IN - December 24, 2007)
Vanderbilt (IN - December 3, 2007)
Texas (IN - December 6, 2007 [$7k/year & in-state tuition])
Illinois (?)
Notre Dame (IN - December 15, 2007 [$15k/year])
George Washington (?)
Wisconsin (?)
Northwestern (?)
NYU (IN - December 21, 2007)
UPenn (?)

[st.cronin]

How do you get them to waive the fee?

[RPI-Fan]

As I mentioned, the LSAC cartel coordinates the LSAT test and gives the option of having them make your score available to law schools. Having assumed that fee waivers were probably one consequence of this (and the worst case scenario is I'd get some junk mail from school that I won't consider), I gladly accepted this option.

I took the LSAT in June, got my score in July, and Duke gave me the first fee waiver in late July (they e-mailed me with the offer... Duke is interesting because they also said they will answer my application within 1 week). Then a while with only non-waiver material from relatively shitty schools, but in the past month I've gotten the other waivers mentioned above. I have no clue if more will keep coming or not. I suspect the wave (no pun intended) is almost passed.

I have to say, I was shocked when I got the waiver from Duke. Then, when I got the Columbia waiver today, I was absolutely floored.

[st.cronin]

So its based just on them seeing your LSAT score? Nothing else?

[lcjjdnh]

RPI-Fan:

Good luck, I'll definitely be reading. As I mentioned in the other thread, I took the LSATs this June, but after thinking about it, I'm going to take a few years off before applying. Judging from the schools you are considering and the fee waivers you've been granted, we're in similar situations, so I'll be interested to see how things turn out.

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

So its based just on them seeing your LSAT score? Nothing else?

As far as I know, yes. LSAC does have some other data of mine (undergrad school, unofficial GPA, major, etc.), but I suspect that law schools don't look at that.

From my readings, I get the impression that maybe 80% of law school admisions are based on "numbers" (LSAT and GPA). Of that estimated 80%, 75-90% is LSAT, the other 10-25% GPA. So basically, LSAT is very important in admissions (and in fact better predicts grades than any other factor for any other type of school, including GPA).

Note, I think that they only look at LSAT for the fee waivers. When it gets to the actual admission process, the "factor" breakdown is as described above.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

As far as I know, yes. LSAC does have some other data of mine (undergrad school, unofficial GPA, major, etc.), but I suspect that law schools don't look at that.

From my readings, I get the impression that maybe 80% of law school admisions are based on "numbers" (LSAT and GPA). Of that estimated 80%, 75-90% is LSAT, the other 10-25% GPA. So basically, LSAT is very important in admissions (and in fact better predicts grades than any other factor for any other type of school, including GPA).

Note, I think that they only look at LSAT for the fee waivers. When it gets to the actual admission process, the "factor" breakdown is as described above.

Yes on admissions being pretty much wholly based on numbers. Unless you've won the Nobel Peace Prize or discovered a cure for AIDS, don't expect to get in based on extracurriculars.

With fee-waivers, you'd be surprised how many law schools are willing to waive their fees simply by asking. More prestigous schools will want to see numbers, but more applications is always a good thing for law schools (higher turn-down rate).

As I told you before, I'll be pulling for you down the stretch and following along, RPI!

[Icy]

I'm not familiar with USA colleges admisions so i'm curious. What does that waiver fee mean? that they are offing you like a scholarship? it will be totally free for you to attend the school?

[finketr]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

So at this point I think my list is:

1) Yale
2) Harvard
3) Duke
4) Columbia
5) ???

Columbia would be ahead of Duke on my list except for the fact that I absolutely hate living in big cities. In fact, it should probably be lower on the list for this reason. But it isn't, for now. I suspect that will change once I get a better idea what is going on with the land-grant highly-ranked state schools.

More shortly, if anybody reads!...

cough...

harvard is only 3 miles from boston, ma.. that's a pretty big city.

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by finketr

cough...

harvard is only 3 miles from boston, ma.. that's a pretty big city.

Right, but Boston is more tolerable than most for me for a variety of reasons and Harvard is, well, Harvard, so I'd make exception for that.

[RPI-Fan]

Small update today...

LSAC received my 2nd letter of recommendation (but it is the one that I probably won't really use); my 3rd should be received next week and 4th the following week (I talked to my last recommender yesterday and he said he will send by a week from today).

I still need to write my personal statement and essay(s), but I have some ideas for these after speaking with a professor (the writer of my 4th recommendation). I'm hoping to get to that this weekend; said professor said he'd be happy to review the essays for me which I will certainly take him up on.

Also, received a fee waiver from _The_ University of Michigan Law School, so add another one to the list for applications. Michigan is cool because it's beautiful and nice location, and perhaps I'd be able to play club soccer there. I'd say they move into 4th on my list now, right behind The Duke University. Columbia now in 5th...

[Barkeep49]

I'll be following along. I really need to get off my own butt and apply to grad school myself so this should be a good motivator to do so.

[RPI-Fan]

Got a fee waiver from The Northwestern University today. So add that to the list of possible applications. My big city aversion has me not too keen on them, though. The University of Iowa has contacted me about three times, never offering a fee waiver, so I finally e-mailed them back inquiring about that possibility. They simply responded that fee waivers are only granted on a need-basis, so I will simply forget about them.

As far as document statuses -- I have all my transcripts in and processed, and all but one letter of recommendation in. The letters I have right now are two professional, one academic (and one professional one isn't particularly flattering). So I am waiting on my last academic one, which last I knew was getting sent out late last week. Need to talk to the professor about that, but before I do I want to show him a personal statement for review.

Speaking of which, once this week clears up a bit I need to write an initial draft of a personal statement. If all goes well, I will be submitting applications starting next week (week of October 22).

~rpi-fan

[Barkeep49]

Northwestern is next to a big city. My brother also hates big cities but is planning on moving to Evanston after he graduates college because it has many of the big city pluses without many of the minuses and Evanston is less of a big city than say Ann Arbor, though of course Ann Arbor isn't right next to a major city.

[RPI-Fan]

The hard thing for a place like Northwestern, NYU, Penn, Columbia is that they are roughly equal to Duke and Michigan. So it's hard for me to really see the advantages moving to a big city, which I may very well hate, when I have just as practical options in much more appealing places (Duke in particular because I could probably play hockey there...)

[lcjjdnh]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Northwestern is next to a big city. My brother also hates big cities but is planning on moving to Evanston after he graduates college because it has many of the big city pluses without many of the minuses and Evanston is less of a big city than say Ann Arbor, though of course Ann Arbor isn't right next to a major city.

I may be wrong, but I think Northwestern Law School is actually in Chicago, not Evanston.

[RPI-Fan]

Yep, I think NU is in some sort of Chicago campus (unfortunately).

[RPI-Fan]

Well, I just submitted my Duke and Michigan applications. Duke says they will get back to me within a week of receiving my completed file (they allege this takes two to three weeks... that seems a bit long to me).

Thank you for your interest in Duke Law School! We have received your registration for our Priority Track application process. When your application becomes complete it will receive an immediate, comprehensive review and we will mail a response within seven days. Please remember that your application must be complete before we can begin the Priority Track review. A complete file includes your LSDAS Law School Report, two letters of recommendation, your resume, and a personal statement. We will request your LSDAS Law School Report soon after you submit your application, but it generally takes two to three weeks for us to receive the report in the mail from the Law School Admission Council. Your application fee will be waived automatically if you use the LSAC electronic application service; if you submit a paper application please include a copy of your Priority Track invitation letter in lieu of the fee.

...

I want to write an essay before I apply to Yale so that will hold off for now. Next up on the fee-waiver cash-in list are Vanderbilt, UVA, and UT-Austin. I'll hope to get to them this week, and then move on down the list as we go on.

Regardless, it looks like I'm WAY ahead of the curve with regard to these applications (see: http://www.deloggio.com/how&when/appflow.htm).

~rpi-fan

[RPI-Fan]

Oh, oh I almost forgot. There is a (rather weak) grad school fair at RPI tomorrow, but THE University of Michigan will be there so of course I will be stopping in to talk with them.

[RPI-Fan]

Harvard, Vanderbilt, and Berkley applications have been submitted. I have to send Texas and Stanford via USPS so that will wait until this weekend. I've figured out an outline for my Yale essay so hopefully that will go this weekend as well. Michigan was pretty weak at the grad school fair; lady did not demonstrate any interest in telling me about the school at all.

So, the next applications are Yale, Stanford, Texas (in that order). Then, more fee-waiver freebies... UCLA, Notre Dame, Wisconsin, Alabama, Illinois next up.

On my LSAC information page it says that Duke & Harvard have already had their law school report requests processed. If that means what I think it means, Duke has an obligation to get back to me within one week of when that stuff arrives in the mail, which should be early next week. So hopefully I'll hear from them by early November!

[MrBug708]

RPI - Did you submit your tax information in to get the fee waivers?

[RPI-Fan]

No I just got them from the LSAC Candidate Referal Service. Basically, you can allow LSAC to distribute your LSAT, GPA, and undergraduate major and places will solicit you with these fee waivers.

[Barkeep49]

You mention sending Texas and Standford via USPS. How do you send the others?

[RPI-Fan]

Electronically, through the LSAC website. It literally takes about 10-20 minutes at this point to do any new applications have them completely sent out.

[RPI-Fan]

Applied to Wisconsin, UVA, Notre Dame, and Illinois tonight.

I need to do Texas via USPS and write a stupid essay for Alabama, then write a more important essay for Yale, mail in a certification letter for Stanford, and I am DONE (I already talked to the Dean of Students about the Stanford DOS certification).

In neater form, I need to:

-write essay for Alabama and submit electronically
-write essay for Yale and submit electronically
-fill out Texas app and mail it in (already have it printed); Print out fee waiver e-mail and drop in envelope with rest of application; buy extra stamp for overweight mail and drop in the mailbox
-mail in Stanford certification letter (already have it printed)
-mail in Wisconsin certification letter (need to print)

I hope to be able to do all these things from my office tomorrow. I'll be there from 10am-6pm so I think I have a good chance of wrapping them up.

So, most things are out of my hands at this point. It will be nice to cross those last 5 things off the list. Then the waiting game begins. Fortunately, I'm supposed to hear from Duke in short order (middle of November at the latest, I imagine). Hopefully others will follow soon after. I don't expect to hear from Yale, Harvard, or Stanford until March or so.

To anyone who has been through this: what kind of timeline did you have once you submitted all your applications?

[RPI-Fan]

For record-keeping purposes, the final list of apps will be (unless I have a change of heart and decide to apply to UCLA, Temple, Columbia, or Northwestern; all of which would be free):

(in some rough order of preference...)

-Yale
-Stanford
-Harvard
-Duke
-Virginia
-Michigan
-Cal
-Cornell
-Vanderbilt
-Texas
-Illinois
-Notre Dame
-George Washington
-Wisconsin

[RPI-Fan]

Updated the application list & tracker with Cornell & George Washington...

Have filled out completely applications for Georgetown and NYU, but no fee waivers as of right now so I'm probably not going to send those unless I get such a waiver.

[Eaglesfan27]

I'm following along with interest as well, now. In your first post, you mentioned med school as a possibility after law school. I'm sure you probably know this, but that is becoming a more common choice and there are even a few combined JD/MD programs in the country. Also, about a half dozen of my classmates back in 96 already had their JD when they entered medical school with me, including 1 who is one of my best friends. Good luck!

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

I'm following along with interest as well, now. In your first post, you mentioned med school as a possibility after law school. I'm sure you probably know this, but that is becoming a more common choice and there are even a few combined JD/MD programs in the country. Also, about a half dozen of my classmates back in 96 already had their JD when they entered medical school with me, including 1 who is one of my best friends. Good luck!

Don't want to do the joint degree because the application process for med school is SO much more intensive and I don't have any of the general requisites needed to start studying for the MCAT's. I'm sure I will go back to engineering school at some point so if I do I might be able to sneak in the chemistry/biology-type classes then so I am more ready for the MCAT's and the MD application process in general.

If I go back to school to get Master's in engineering it should only take me 1 year or so.

Thanks for the kind words!

[RPI-Fan]

Wooooooooooo!

hxxp://www.termdictionary.com/downloads/audio/duke_is_duke.mp3

Not the worst way to start a weekend, eh?

[RPI-Fan]

Officially got into the MA/JD joint degree program at Duke (via e-mail/web). Still no hard copies of anything from them, I'd anticipate it'll come sometime in the next two weeks. Other acceptances could start any time, but I'm not banking on anything until December. I really need to learn more about the joint degree program as I do not want to do it if I'd need to sacrifice my summers. You can make a lot of money in the summer and it is the best way to find your biglaw job for when you graduate.

My guess on who I'll hear from next: UT-Austin

[RPI-Fan]

Oh, also, have an alumni interview for Northwestern in the city on the day before Thanksgiving. Will be interesting because I am really definitely interviewing them more than the other way around.

[Izulde]

Congrats on your first acceptance!

[Barkeep49]

Congrats indeed on your acceptance to a fine fine school.

[RPI-Fan]

For the record (in case anyone desires to reference this in the future in similar endeavors to my own), I got into Duke's JD program on November 2. They then forwarded my app to the graduate school who let me into the MA/Economics program on November 15.

[RPI-Fan]

Got the acceptance package in the mail today; nothing special.

[RPI-Fan]

Some positive updates (though slightly outdated...).

Got in at Michigan and Vanderbilt on Monday. Both of their packages arrived a couple of days later -- Vandy's had some impressive material in it (a well-written guide to the school and Nashville, etc.). On Thursday, I got a (slightly unexpected, given the lack of a status checker update) to UT-Austin. There was no financial information included which I thought meant I wouldn't get any.

But, then, on Friday (one day later), I got another letter from them with a scholarship offer of $7,000 per year and in-state tuition. The $7k isn't a huge deal (though nice) but the in-state could be quite critical. That drops tuition from about $33k per year to $20k per year. So if you add the in-state and the money together it's about $20k per year, on an already relatively inexpensive law school (most schools, are over $35k or even $40k per year, compared to UT at $33k). This will certainly be something to mull over, but I still have 13 other schools to hear from (the majority of which could greatly affect my final decision).

~rpi-fan

[MrBug708]

Must be nice Kyle..

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Must be nice Kyle..

The early part of the "cycle" (as they call it) is the easiest -- rejections/waitlists don't start coming out until the new year, and even then typically not until March.

Thanks for the note, though.

[Barkeep49]

Well even if/when the rejections start coming at least you've got in to some well regarded schools and even have an attractive aid package at one. I'd say you've done quite well for yourself. Congrats!

[MalcPow]

Just found this thread... good luck, I went through this process a few years ago and ended up deferring and then falling into a good new job (and now will probably just go to b-school). You should feel great about having these early acceptances in the bag, makes everything much easier. If you end up getting into/visiting Harvard, let me know. My wife is a 3L there and very involved, I'm sure she'd be happy to answer any questions you had.

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by MalcPow

Just found this thread... good luck, I went through this process a few years ago and ended up deferring and then falling into a good new job (and now will probably just go to b-school). You should feel great about having these early acceptances in the bag, makes everything much easier. If you end up getting into/visiting Harvard, let me know. My wife is a 3L there and very involved, I'm sure she'd be happy to answer any questions you had.

So, uh, can she pull strings in the admissions office?

[RPI-Fan]

In at Notre Dame with a 40% tuition scholarship (basically unconditional). Excited to get in with a sizable scholarship, but as much as I LOVE Notre Dame, its tradition, and most of all alumni network, I would need basically a free ride to convince me to go there I think. Certainly will be another to keep in mind. But in the end, hard to imagine passing up UT's ~$14k tuition (after scholly) for ND's $20k tuition (after scholly).

[RPI-Fan]

In at Illinois with a 75% scholarship (basically unconditional). Not really under consideration. The only decision I really somewhat anticipate in the next week or two MIGHT be Cornell but if that's not certain to come. Aside from that, it'll be a month or two before I really get any news again (and at that point, it's going to be the rejections from YLS, HLS, SLS, etc.)...

[finketr]

let me know if you go to champaign.

[RPI-Fan]

In at NYU!

[RPI-Fan]

In at Cornell! Last one for a while, I think...

[Izulde]

Congrats on the most recent string of acceptances!

[molson]

Great news - there's really nothing in life like the excitement of waiting for the mail every day, looking forward to the next acceptance.

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by molson

Great news - there's really nothing in life like the excitement of waiting for the mail every day, looking forward to the next acceptance.

Thanks! Where did you go, if I may ask? Actually, I really, really wanted to go to UIdaho just for its location -- I guess Cornell comes the closest to matching it (but is still way off) -- but practical considerations ruled out that idea.

When I got the mail today (I've been getting it everyday for the past month or so, of course), there was no big packages. I saw the letter from Cornell and it was a razor-thin envelope, so with this being the very last day to hear from them about Early Action I was thinking it was a deferral. Alas, it turned out to be an acceptance with an offer to apply for a Dean's scholarship. If I somehow managed to trick them into giving me that scholarship CU would be awfully hard to pass up.