Matrix War Games

[Senator]

A friend of mine was telling me he really enjoyed The Operational Art of War.

He also said he liked the Steel Panthers General Edition. I never played these types of games on PC. Do any of you have any history playing them and are they worth the effort? Maximum Football is the worst game ever made, and so Matrix games make me a little skittish. Asking for opinions.

I guess I could play The Campaign for North Africa!

It is only a 7-foot mapsheet. 1,800 counters and 1,500 hours to play!

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by Senator

A friend of mine was telling me he really enjoyed The Operational Art of War.

He also said he liked the Steel Panthers General Edition. I never played these types of games on PC. Do any of you have any history playing them and are they worth the effort? Maximum Football is the worst game ever made, and so Matrix games make me a little skittish. Asking for opinions.

I guess I could play The Campaign for North Africa!

It is only a 7-foot mapsheet. 1,800 counters and 1,500 hours to play!

I think Steel Panthers itself has become Freeware.
hxxp://www.steelpanthersonline.com/

What you are getting at Matrix Games is some massive campaigns for it.
You should be able to test the game and see if you like it first.

[larrymcg421]

Many of the games weren't developed by Matrix, but by Talonsoft, which was acquired by Matrix. The games themselves are pretty damn good, but the problem you get with Matrix is awful customer service.

[Galaril]

I have bought a bunch of games from Matrix but I find there prices at least on the fairly recent last few years games to be not too great 49.99-59.99 and up!

[DaddyTorgo]

yeah - steel panthers itself is freeware. i've always been meaning to DL and check it out, but have never gotten around to it

I need to DOSBox my ass and get back to playing Panzer General & Allied General

[Senator]

I guess my question is, "are they fun"? I always hear people reference them but not sure if they are exciting and don't feel dated.

[gstelmack]

Steel Panthers can get tedious, especially with an artillery barrage going on, but I've played a ton of it in the past. My biggest beef is that I prefer real-time tactical games; Close Combat was the end of my Steel Panthers days. Just something about moving your guys one at a time and getting hit with opportunity fire that is so 1980s...

Operational Art of War is a very good strategic-level wargame, set up as a wargame builder kit so that there are a variety of eras represented and lots of available scenarios. I played a lot of it back in the day as well.

[Sweed]

I played TOAW back around 01-03 and enjoyed it. I still play the Tiller Campaign Series using the updated Matrix versions.

Are they exciting, well not like a first person shooter where you need quick reflexes. But they can be when the strategy you spent time setting up ends up creating a breakthrough and your armor starts a blitz. Or if moving to cut off a peninsula trapping an entire army is up your alley then yes it can be very enjoyable.

[johneh]

Have you tried the Football game Matrix published?
It's fun to the max!

I think there is a thread on this board where it's discussed.

[Icy]

Originally Posted by Senator

I guess my question is, "are they fun"? I always hear people reference them but not sure if they are exciting and don't feel dated.

Graphics are dated as are old games, but we are talking about "tabletop like" wargames, so it's not that graphics do matter a lot. In fact some are so simple (symbols) as are also the ones used by real military when planning battles.

About fun or not... it depends on if you like deep turn based wargames or not.

Steel panthers is squad size while TOAW is on a bigger size (divisions maybe?). I like steel panthers more, as i prefer to play with each squad, study each weapon, know each soldier by his name, etc while in TOAW it's more abstracted to the whole division fire power for example. In Steel Panthers you feel more in the war field, while in TOAW you fel more like the general deciding the strategies in the war room.

In the past i got really really addicted to steel panthers, to the point that i ended deleting it from my PC to stop playing it. But i must admit i'm a WWII freak and love anything related to it, from books, movies, games etc.

I bought the game from Matrix as it came with a lot of historical campaigns that were more fun to me than playing random generated ones, specially if you like history. I also purchased some extra campaigns, like the "brother in arms" one that is based on the historical facts on what the TV serie was based on. Those huge campaigns released by Matrix are a must have for WWII fans, as the details put into them is incredible, with all the historical battles, units, weapons, etc perfectly explained even with real WWII videos.

I think they have for sale now the "general edition" that has all the separated campaigns in one pack.

If you are into WWII and deep and realistic turn based wargames, steel pathers is realy really fun, botth he free version and the Matrix ones with all the extra campaigns.

Try the free version, and if you like it, buy the generals edition and enjoy the deep historical campaigns. OF course say bye to your real life, as those campaigns will take real life months to end.

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Steel Panthers can get tedious, especially with an artillery barrage going on, but I've played a ton of it in the past. My biggest beef is that I prefer real-time tactical games; Close Combat was the end of my Steel Panthers days. Just something about moving your guys one at a time and getting hit with opportunity fire that is so 1980s...

Operational Art of War is a very good strategic-level wargame, set up as a wargame builder kit so that there are a variety of eras represented and lots of available scenarios. I played a lot of it back in the day as well.

Same here.

[BradS]

A Premier site you may want to check out.

[Tim Tellean]

Matrix doesn't make any games they only distribute, I've bought half a dozen games and find the customer service from Matrix good and the forums that are specific to a game can be a great help if you need game specific help.
The latest release is Close Combat: The Longest Day and I really like it.
Matrix Games have won a ton of awards from the Wargame community and it reminds me alot of SSI in the variety of wargame, time periods, depth and detail, Max FB not withstanding, they also hosted PureSim which I think we can agree is a decent baseball game.
To borrow a line I see used here is YMMV.

[DaddyTorgo]

i want to try TOAW - i need a quality strategic-level wargame to replace my old SSI games

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Tim Tellean

The latest release is Close Combat: The Longest Day and I really like it.

I am going to break down one of these days and grab one. Do you know if they fixed the AI cheat where AI tanks would "know" you had guys in a building and shoot just that building, killing the bazooka team that was hiding in it trying to ambush you? That one drove me nuts during the Market Garden one. It was really my only frustration with Close Combat.

As for Matrix, they got a bad rep around here when they tried to defend the Maximum Football fiasco in the thread here.

[Senator]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

As for Matrix, they got a bad rep around here when they tried to defend the Maximum Football fiasco in the thread here.

Exactly my point. MAX FOOTBALL turned me off to the whole group, but some of these games intrigue me, I just don't know which one is the best to try.

[Icy]

Originally Posted by Senator

Exactly my point. MAX FOOTBALL turned me off to the whole group, but some of these games intrigue me, I just don't know which one is the best to try.

Don't get confused by the MAxfootball thing, Matrix is a really solid company specialized in wargames, their big mistake was to take MaxF fiasco under their umbrella.

[JPhillips]

My problem with Matrix is price. I'd love to buy some of their games, but I'm very unlikely to spend 50 or 60 dollars on any game for any platform. I can find something just as entertaining at 1/2 to 2/3 that price.

As for TOAW, I played the hell out of that when it was newer. I love operational level wargames and at the time nothing was better. I couldn't tell you how many times through Overlord I played.

[DaddyTorgo]

is there anything better now J? I'd be really curious - I used to play a lot more operational-level things on boards, and would love to play some now - particularly WWII, Cold War, or anything that's open enough where there's a ton of user-created scenarios covering lots of time periods + conflicts

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

My problem with Matrix is price. I'd love to buy some of their games, but I'm very unlikely to spend 50 or 60 dollars on any game for any platform. I can find something just as entertaining at 1/2 to 2/3 that price.

It looks like they are charging around $40 for electronic download (no CD), but I haven't checked out their electronic download setup.

I did check out the Steel Panthers thing Icy mentioned, and that's $70 which is WAY too steep for me. I'll spend $40 on one of the Close Combats soon, though, I'm pretty sure.

[Apathetic Lurker]

Originally Posted by Senator

A friend of mine was telling me he really enjoyed The Operational Art of War.

He also said he liked the Steel Panthers General Edition. I never played these types of games on PC. Do any of you have any history playing them and are they worth the effort? Maximum Football is the worst game ever made, and so Matrix games make me a little skittish. Asking for opinions.

I guess I could play The Campaign for North Africa!

It is only a 7-foot mapsheet. 1,800 counters and 1,500 hours to play!

No, MF is not the worst game ever made..But its close.......

Matrix games doesnt actually program and develop the games for the most part. They do help even out the bumps and help with the playtesting.

Campaign for North Africa is fun, in a anal-retentive way..I have over 1000 hours logged into it......

Matrix games are definately worth the money. But then it depends on how much you want to spend getting to know them. You aint jumping in and playing. Prepare some time to read the manual. Some of their games actually have physical manuals that are old school... No two pages folded over and called a manual.

[Apathetic Lurker]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Many of the games weren't developed by Matrix, but by Talonsoft, which was acquired by Matrix. The games themselves are pretty damn good, but the problem you get with Matrix is awful customer service.

Customer service is fine..Maybe you had a bad experience but my issues went smoothly. It might not be from their end but DR's or the developers



Direct download is smooth .. I get both a physical copy and the download.. Over 20 games and not one problem.

[Sgran]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

I am going to break down one of these days and grab one. Do you know if they fixed the AI cheat where AI tanks would "know" you had guys in a building and shoot just that building, killing the bazooka team that was hiding in it trying to ambush you? That one drove me nuts during the Market Garden one.

Is it actually possible to win Market Garden? Is it assumed then that you've broken Hitler's back and march to Berlin?

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

It looks like they are charging around $40 for electronic download (no CD), but I haven't checked out their electronic download setup.

I bought both Tillers Campaign Series and Advanced Tactics WWII using Matrix digital download. You want to make sure to burn the install files to a cd\dvd as you can only d'load from them for one year from purchase. IIRC you can give them an additional fee (can't remember how much but ~$5-$10) to be able to re-download for three(?) years, or something like that.

However you are not limited to how many times you can install. You get a code to input to confirm purchase and can even store the code in a member account at Matrix. When my computer died two months ago installing the games on my new box was as simple as getting out the dvd I burned with the files, no muss no fuss. All in all a good experience.

You can also order a copy on disk with printed manual for $10 more which also lets you go ahead and download the digital copy so you can start playing today.

I did check out the Steel Panthers thing Icy mentioned, and that's $70 which is WAY too steep for me. I'll spend $40 on one of the Close Combats soon, though, I'm pretty sure.

Yeah, after reading his post I went to Matrix to check it out. I'm almost glad it was $69. If it had been $39 I probably would have ordered it Hell, I don't have enough time to devote to the games I play now

I'm also fighting off the feeling that it might be fun to pick up TOAW III

[DaddyTorgo]

is TOAW the best out there for operational-level?

[path12]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

is TOAW the best out there for operational-level?

I'd poke around wargamer.com a bit. There's got to be a newer operational level game since TOAW (which I found kinda bland FWIW).

[DaddyTorgo]

cool

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by path12

I'd poke around wargamer.com a bit. There's got to be a newer operational level game since TOAW (which I found kinda bland FWIW).

man that website blows - i can't even figure out how i can look for operational-level turn-based games by any sort of "review" mechanism or anything

[path12]

I'd give suggestions but hell, I just started playing Kingmaker by Avalon Hill on Dosbox again.

[DaddyTorgo]

hehehe

[Icy]

Shit guys, i thought i had passed my wargaming addiction after a year not playing any... but you had to start this thread to remind me how i liked it.

I'm thinking on purchasing the new CC5 "The longest day" now... and i better do not start to search for my DVD with all the steel panthers campaigns... and i better do not start to re-watch "Save Private Ryan" or the "Band of brothers" series or "Enemy at the gates" again... damn you guys!

[BradS]

Wet your appetite with one of many maps--graphic heavy.

[BigDPW]

Is there a demo for any of the newer Close Combat games? or TOAW?

[Eilim]

Damn, you guys got me to download SP:WaW and MBT again. They got me in a Grognard mood, so I starting searching around for any new wargames that might grab my interest.

While close.. I held off picking up the new Close Combat remake and ended up grabbing an old game cheap off of steam, "Take Command: Second Manassas", and now am completely hooked. Nice Pseudo 3d graphics, easily moddable, and one of the best takes on chain of command I've seen (CotA from Matrix spoiled me on such things.), makes this a must grab for fans of tactical warfare with older weaponry. Some really nice mods out there as well.

Pretty active forums if anyone wants to check it out : Mad Minute Games .

[gstelmack]

Any idea if Take Command runs on Vista64? Guess I should check the forums. Could not tell from the web site if it was real-time or turn-based. I put Sid Meier's Gettysburg on my system and it ran pretty well, except that the map scroll speed was way too fast, and opening preferences to edit it crashed, but I remembered how much I loved their approach to real-time tactical games (and the command interface remains a notch above the Total War series as it's easier to line my guys up). Would love a similar game that ran better on my system.

[Eilim]

Not sure about vista. The game is real time, but pausable. I do get slightly annoyed at times that you can not issue orders while paused when playing the upper echelon commanders. Although, given the way the game plays out, its not a game breaker for me. Especially as I currently love playing the lower ranks in command of a regiment following orders (most of the time ) in the bigger battles. I think I mentioned my love of the way they have the chain of command set up?

[Icy]

Eilim, has it a long campaign mode? or is it just about small battles? I like wargames with deep campaigns where you can upgrade your troops etc

[Icy]

I like it's concept of being able to be just a brigade officer and to receive orders.

Any other wargame with such feature? i would like to feel part of a big war or battle but only managing an small group of guys instead of the whole army.

[Icy]

John Tiller's Campaign Series seems something interesting too on the platoon level that like.

[Eilim]

Eilim, has it a long campaign mode? or is it just about small battles? I like wargames with deep campaigns where you can upgrade your troops etc

While I haven't played the campaign mode yet, from what I've read it doesn't seem to have the depth of some other games. It appears to be linked battles with troop numbers determined partially by previous results. Some of the custom user scenarios seem to take it a bit further, but am not really sure. Troops and officer stats seem to be at fixed numbers based on the OOBs, but the author has mentioned that something he hope to expand in future versions giving the campaigns a more dynamic feel.

I like it's concept of being able to be just a brigade officer and to receive orders.

Any other wargame with such feature? i would like to feel part of a big war or battle but only managing an small group of guys instead of the whole army.

Not that I can think of off hand. This is one of the main things that has really grabbed me in the game. I love setting up huge battles in open play then taking control of a junior calvary officer and doing my part.

I hope to run through a self created "dynasty" of sorts, starting off as as junior officer and possibly working my way up to general based on battle ratings. Just need to create some new OOBs for my little alternate universe as I'd like to create a fictional country having a civil war for story purposes as not to break my immersion when the battle results disconnect from reality.

John Tiller's Campaign Series seems something interesting too on the platoon level that like

Never tried his campaign series, but was absolutely hooked on his Squad Battles series, especially the post-WWII based releases.