WTH? Youth baseball team kicked out for being too good?

[Blackadar]

Fucking pitiful...

HIT THE SHOWERS, BOYS
Youth baseball team ousted from league for being 'too good'
Published: Friday, June 17, 2005
NEWS 01D
By Kirk D. Richards
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH
No one misbehaved. No one broke any rules.

But after only a few games, the Columbus Stars have been kicked out of a recreational youth baseball league in Canal Winchester.

The players, ages 11 and 12, were deemed too good.

On May 9, the Stars beat the Red Sox, 18-0. Two weeks later, the Stars also beat World Harvest, 13-0. But the biggest blowout occurred on May 27, when the Stars defeated Sugar Grove II, 24-0.

Sugar Grove I lost to the Stars the next day, 10-2.

"After hearing and seeing the scores from that group, I called up the league office and said, 'No way are we going to play them,' '' said Terry Morris, who coaches one of three teams from Bloom-Carroll schools in Fairfield County. "I wasn't going to subject my players to that.''

Other teams started complaining. And canceling. The Stars were pulled from the league schedule. The team appealed to the league's commissioner, Joe Bernowski, to no avail.

Stars coach Jerry Glick said the ouster is unjustified. He thinks his team should have been credited with wins for the forfeits.

"I've been in amateur sports for 35 years,'' said Glick, 55. "This isn't something I've had to deal with before.''

Michael Mirones, board chairman for the Canal Winchester Joint Recreation District, returned the Stars' $150 entry fee.

He said it would be wrong for other teams to bolt from the decade-old recreational league when, in his view, the Stars should play in a travel league against better teams.

"They were just beating the rec kids up,'' Mirones said. "It's no fun for the kids that are losing.''

Darla and J.R. Perry, parents of R.J., a Stars player who is 11, said the team feels wronged because it is too late to join another league.

"Our boys went into this with a good attitude,'' Mrs. Perry said. "It's turned into a disaster.''

Since April, the boys have been honing their skills on a field outside the Zion Lutheran Church on Obetz Road. They practice 2 1/2 hours a day, four days a week.

Some have been playing together for four or five years, though not the entire team.

"I don't think it's fair,'' said Michael Allston, 12, a catcher and pitcher for the Stars. "We always played our best, and we were just winning games.''

Teammate Matthew "Boomer'' Hufferd, 12, who plays second base, said he thinks overprotective adults are to blame.

"If they learn at their age that they can forfeit on things they don't want to do, it's quitting,'' Hufferd said.

The Stars haven't played a league game since June 6, when they beat the Cardinals, 17-6.

"One team told us they didn't want their boys' self-esteem battered,'' said Trina Cochran, mother of Mario, a Stars player who is 11.

During the team's brief stay in the Canal Winchester league, opponents complained that the players were too big for their ages. R.J. Perry is 155 pounds. Michael Allston is 5 feet 8. Mrs. Perry resorted to carrying copies of each boy's birth certificate to games to avoid a disqualification.

In addition, some accused the coach of plucking talented players from across Columbus to form an all-star team. The team then supplied addresses to the league showing that all but one of the 14 players live in the 43207 ZIP code.

Kris Hutchins, coach of the Yankees in the Canal Winchester league, said the parents of his players unanimously decided not to engage such a fearsome squad. It was an issue not only of competitiveness but also of safety, Hutchins said. "We didn't want one of our kids to get hit in the face with a ball, not being able to defend himself.''

The Stars would not have had a game this week, but their parents arranged a scrimmage on the West Side against Georgian Heights, which plays in another league. The teams had met earlier in the year during a preseason Teays Valley tournament. The Stars had won, 9-8.

Georgian Heights Coach Ken Carius said his team, which has a 24-1 record, was eager to avenge its only loss.

Players from both sides swatted liners and deep balls on Wednesday night, and defenders fielded grounders and made catches on the run. Fans leapt for joy when one of theirs got a base hit or scored.

In the end, the Stars won, 7-3.

[Gary Gorski]

Pathetic....

Why don't they just stop keeping score all together in the league - that way everyone is a winner and nobody ever has to be not the best just like in real life

[Lathum]

Well on the surface it seem like BS, but there is usually 2 sides to every story.

[Ksyrup]

It was an issue not only of competitiveness but also of safety, Hutchins said. "We didn't want one of our kids to get hit in the face with a ball, not being able to defend himself.''

[Young Drachma]

Ugh, I hate when stuff like this happens.

[Ksyrup]

BTW, I don't necessarily have a problem with them doing this - only because this isn't the same kind of league I assumed it was, where people sign up and are assigned to teams randomly. They probably should be playing traveling teams if they are that good. But honestly, just call it like it is, don't make up some BS excuse about safety concerns.

[Radii]

They practice 2 1/2 hours a day, four days a week.

Sounds like they probably should be a travelling team playing against more serious competition. That's just goofy. Every rec league I was ever in or heard of had equal practice times carved out for each team.. it's a recreation league for a reason.

[Gary Gorski]

Seems to me the rec league is inviting this kind of thing though if you allow people to sign up entire teams - when I played little league each kid signed up as an individual and the coaches drafted players at that age group.

The bottom line is that its BS - the league left itself open to this by allowing people to form their own teams so they should live with it for a year and then stop allowing full teams to enter the league in the future. Its not the kids fault that they are good and put together a good team and did everything by the rules.

[cuervo72]

Yeah, if this is a league like I was in growing up (like GG describes) for a township or something, I can see were there might be a problem. It doesn't sound like that's exactly what it was though, allowing full teams to sign up. It seems like the league has to go one way or the other...

(and what kind of a team name is 'World Harvest', anyway??)

[rkmsuf]

I blame the coach of the good team too though. I mean they knew what kind of league they were signing up for. Why would he even want to put his team in that league in the first place.

Also, there is no reason on earth to beat someone 18-0 and 24-0. Ever heard of not sending the runners.

Obviously the league is poorly run too not to be aware of the teams they are admitting to the league. They must know these people.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Well on the surface it seem like BS, but there is usually 2 sides to every story.

True... with these stories, there is about a 75% chance that a follow-up story will emerge that will present an alternative slant to the original issue...

[Balldog]

In addition, some accused the coach of plucking talented players from across Columbus to form an all-star team. The team then supplied addresses to the league showing that all but one of the 14 players live in the 43207 ZIP code.

The 43207 ZIP code is the Columbus ZIP code. From everything I have heard this is correct, but this is basically a hand picked all-star team.

Around here we have rules, such as a lottery to assign players to teams rather than allowing coaches to hand pick (or recruit) their teams.

I don't agree with the decision, but what good does it do for these kids to win every game with ease?

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Balldog

The 43207 ZIP code is the Columbus ZIP code. From everything I have heard this is correct, but this is basically a hand picked all-star team.

Around here we have rules, such as a lottery to assign players to teams rather than allowing coaches to hand pick (or recruit) their teams.

I don't agree with the decision, but what good does it do for these kids to win every game with ease?

Thats what I saw. Winning is fun, but is winning by 10x every game fun?

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Also, there is no reason on earth to beat someone 18-0 and 24-0. Ever heard of not sending the runners.

Never understood that. I can remember in all of my traveling games, and high school games where we'd be slaughtering the other team the coach would try to stop the runners, but we're playing a fucking baseball game not a game of let's not hurt the other team's feelings. No one should ever ask someone to stop playing their hardest just because they are winning. Even when we were getting slaughtered I would hate it when on a base hit to center they would stop the runner at third preventing me from trying to make the throw to the plate. If you can't handle getting beat, don't play a sport. And believe me, I've been on teams that have been slaughtered more than we slaughter other teams, it's just a loss where the game ends sooner because once you're losing whether it's by 7 or 50 I could care less. Let the kids play, and let them steal bases, let them run the bases, let them hit the ball, don't make them hold back.

And one of the biggest reasons I believe in this was because we were down to one of the best teams in the conference 11-0 going into the top half of the fifth (where the 10 run rule comes into effect), all of a sudden we score 3 runs to go to the sixth. At the end of the seventh we won 16-11, why? Well we hit the ball really well, but the other coach would have his kids stop, not advance a base, not score off a basehit, and it ended up costing them the game.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

Never understood that. I can remember in all of my traveling games, and high school games where we'd be slaughtering the other team the coach would try to stop the runners, but we're playing a fucking baseball game not a game of let's not hurt the other team's feelings. No one should ever ask someone to stop playing their hardest just because they are winning. Even when we were getting slaughtered I would hate it when on a base hit to center they would stop the runner at third preventing me from trying to make the throw to the plate. If you can't handle getting beat, don't play a sport. And believe me, I've been on teams that have been slaughtered more than we slaughter other teams, it's just a loss where the game ends sooner because once you're losing whether it's by 7 or 50 I could care less. Let the kids play, and let them steal bases, let them run the bases, let them hit the ball, don't make them hold back.

And one of the biggest reasons I believe in this was because we were down to one of the best teams in the conference 11-0 going into the top half of the fifth (where the 10 run rule comes into effect), all of a sudden we score 3 runs to go to the sixth. At the end of the seventh we won 16-11, why? Well we hit the ball really well, but the other coach would have his kids stop, not advance a base, not score off a basehit, and it ended up costing them the game.

I share you're thoughts at the professional level. I love and encourage running up the score. For youth and recreational levels I'm against it. You are actually trying to teach kids some life lessons here. Humility is a good thing.

Again, once fine...teams get hot. To repeatedly rub it in the face of clearly inferior competition just doesn't sit well with me.

[ISiddiqui]

And what does it do to the players on other teams getting the snot kicked out of there. There is getting beat, there is getting beat bad, and then there is this.

[Ksyrup]

In my youth leagues, I was on both ends of an ass-whipping several times. I can recall pitching a 1-hitter and beating some team 30-0 in 5 innings when I was 10 years old. We were the best team in the league, but we still only won 15 of 20 games, so we were beatable. Just not on that day.

[JonInMiddleGA]

They're playing within the rules, they're being punished for excellence & hard work (apparently no rule stopped the other teams from putting in the hours of practice).

In short -- typical modern-day America.

God forbid we dare allowing excellence & acheivement to go unpunished.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

They're playing within the rules, they're being punished for excellence & hard work (apparently no rule stopped the other teams from putting in the hours of practice).

In short -- typical modern-day America.

God forbid we dare allowing excellence & acheivement to go unpunished.

This really misses the mark for a youth recreational league comprised on 11 and 12 year olds.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

They're playing within the rules, they're being punished for excellence & hard work (apparently no rule stopped the other teams from putting in the hours of practice).

In short -- typical modern-day America.

God forbid we dare allowing excellence & acheivement to go unpunished.

IIRC, the mercy rule was in place years and years ago and isn't in place now. Was that typical old day America punishing excellence and achievement?

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

They're playing within the rules, they're being punished for excellence & hard work (apparently no rule stopped the other teams from putting in the hours of practice).

In short -- typical modern-day America.

God forbid we dare allowing excellence & acheivement to go unpunished.

So why didn't they just sign up for a traveling all-star league instead of this puny rec-league? You don't really prove excellence and achievement unless you do it against the best possible competition.

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

This really misses the mark for a youth recreational league.

Really? It sounds like every rec league I've been involved with for the past few years. You try to create a league for the kids to have fun, and some jackasses with no life and no sense of self-worth outside of sports creates a "super team" to beat up on players that barely know how to play. That'll make you feel like a real man.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

This really misses the mark for a youth recreational league.

I disagree. Competition is not the place for a great deal of touchy-feely concerns - it's win or lose, do or die, acheive or fail. There's not a great deal of "holding back" in the real world in competitive situations & it isn't a destructive lesson that should be taught on the playing fields of America either AFAIC.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

So why didn't they just sign up for a traveling all-star league instead of this puny rec-league? You don't really prove excellence and achievement unless you do it against the best possible competition.

Maybe they didn't want to travel? Maybe they had underestimated themselves?
(All the practice in the world, you really don't know what you've got until the competition goes live).

I don't know, and I really don't care -- if they acted within the rules, then they have done nothing to deserve punishment.

It's not like this is a situation I'm totally unfamiliar with -- my miserable coaching experience last summer included a team of ringers that sound about like the team in this story. The difference is that the rules didn't allow for teams to come in as a unit ... basically one guy just sort of let them come in "incognito" at the last minute in spite of the rules. And that makes a world of difference in my p.o.v.

But if the only reason the team in the story was booted was because they were simply better than the rest, that's just horseshit plain & simple AFAIC and I pity the kids from the other teams for the lack of parenting they're getting.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I disagree. Competition is not the place for a great deal of touchy-feely concerns - it's win or lose, do or die, acheive or fail. There's not a great deal of "holding back" in the real world in competitive situations & it isn't a destructive lesson that should be taught on the playing fields of America either AFAIC.

This thinking saddens me to some degree and is a major to contributor to the destruction of youth sports in many, many places.

I guess accepting that kids must operate as adults from the go is the norm nowdays.

God forbid a league exists for the purpose of having fun, learning the game and fostering interest in baseball/team sports growing up. If you don't practice the majority of the hours of the day and win you are shit.

I can't even imagine what type of people we are dealing with in this league that wants to intentionally humiliate 11 and 12 years old 3 times a week. I'll bet they don't even both to shake hands and just walk off laughing at the other team and that's ok. They put the work in...fuck them for not having OUR skills.

I'd really love to have a conversation with this "coach".

Real coaches and real teams understand things like competitive spirit and respect. Even our travelling team which is approached very seriously won't run up a score ever and if facing clearly inferior competition would play the scrubs in spite of the risk.

This isn't even tournament play here.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

This is how those liberal socialists will destroy our american way of life. Not through fire but through assimilating and weakening our society.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

IIRC, the mercy rule was in place years and years ago and isn't in place now. Was that typical old day America punishing excellence and achievement?

Hmm ... I think we have an age difference conflict on that one.

When I played, there was no formal mercy rule,just a loose one for all but one season -- basically the losing coach could ask for the game to be ended, subject to the umpire's discretion. Playing baseball from age 5 to 13, I can only remember a couple of occasions where that actually happened though, and that was from poorly coached league doormat.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

This thinking saddens me to some degree and is a major to contributor to the destruction of youth sports in many, many places.

And your approach saddens me the same way. Funny though, yours seems to be the dominant attitude toward the game today, and participation & interest is at an all-time low in many areas. Can't help but make you wonder.

And that general attitude is why my son is being kept as far away from what passes for "organized athletics" this year as possible.

... and if facing clearly inferior competition would play the scrubs in spite of the risk.

Then you're cheating the kids, encouraging mediocrity, teaching them some damging lesson, and you have no business being involved in a competitive environment AFAIC.

[QuikSand]

Hmmm. My first thought was that Sugar Grove just needs to be re-assembled into one team.

[ISiddiqui]

God forbid a league exists for the purpose of having fun, learning the game and fostering interest in baseball/team sports growing up. If you don't practice the majority of the hours of the day and win you are shit.

Yep... it's things like this that turn off a great deal of potential baseball fans, so it's also bad for the future of the professional game.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Hmm ... I think we have an age difference conflict on that one.

When I played, there was no formal mercy rule,just a loose one for all but one season -- basically the losing coach could ask for the game to be ended, subject to the umpire's discretion. Playing baseball from age 5 to 13, I can only remember a couple of occasions where that actually happened though, and that was from poorly coached league doormat.

When I played in the early 90s, coaches couldn't even do that. You played until the end.

Funny though, yours seems to be the dominant attitude toward the game today, and participation & interest is at an all-time low in many areas. Can't help but make you wonder.

Dominent attitude?! You've got to be kidding me! The dominent attitude is win at all costs and it doesn't matter if the kids have any fun!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Dominent attitude?! You've got to be kidding me! The dominent attitude is win at all costs and it doesn't matter if the kids have any fun!

If you can find me a league like that within reasonable distance, let me know.
All I can find around here are one of two bad choices: a) the "oh we don't keep score" leagues or the b) "We already know who will win each game since we pick the umpires & make sure they work the games their relatives (kids/nephews/etc)
are playing in" leagues.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Then you're cheating the kids, encouraging mediocrity, teaching them some damging lesson, and you have no business being involved in a competitive environment AFAIC.

Though it can be said that if you are beating up on scrubs while avoiding real competition, you are teaching the kids mediocrity by not challenging them. You also give them a false sense of their true abilities.

It is akin to giving the kids a cream-puff curriculum in school, and then later wondering why their standardized test scores are still low...

[Balldog]

From a friend from the area:

Some are missing the boat here. This isn’t about teams getting beat 20 to 0. It’s about a team that is coming out of a community that should be fielding 5 or 6 teams. I believe they are division III in football with 271 boys in their high school. The team in question is a hand picked team, the other towns in this RECREATIONAL league are lucky to get 2 teams together some have to scrape to get 1.

[rkmsuf]

Jon I get your point but it's not for me.

I do a little coaching and at the beginning of the season I offer 3 things to parents. One is that the goal is to have fun and be excited about playing baseball. Second, to become better players and third I require effort and participation from everyone...including parents.

No place do I say we will win or be the best team ever.

My worst players many times take the most out of a season through building self esteem and little successes. While they will never play high school baseball they benefit 10 fold from the experience.

That's the purpose as I see it...every kid should come away with something and that's my goal.

Maybe that's ideallistic and laugh if you will but IMO that's the purpose of 8-12 year old youth sports...building skills and self esteem.

How destroying your competetion in a league you don't belong in contributes to either of those things I have no idea.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Though it can be said that if you are beating up on scrubs while avoiding real competition ...

The competition is whatever is on the field at the time & place of the contest.
You can't always pick & choose, and based on the info provide by Balldog's friend in the area, they are facing the correct competition in their area.

Damned if I can understand penalizing the team or the kids for working harder & being better.

[Huckleberry]

A youth league without a mercy rule is asking for it. Mercy rules are actually helpful, and not a sign of "weakness" or whatever stupid catch-word people want to use. They allow the superior team to play their hardest, try their best, and obtain victory.

With no mercy rule, the game would last too long, increasing the chance of injury. With 11-12 year olds, the risk of a fight is also high.

I've been on both sides. I lost a football game 56-0. I was winning a baseball game 33-0 after the top of the 1st inning once, hitting for the cycle in a single inning. Destroying an inferior team does nothing to improve the superior team, period. They would be better served having an intrasquad scrimmage as far as skill improvement is concerned.

[illinifan999]

Also, parents stop trying to "help" your kids. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see any kids from any of the teams besides the Stars getting asked what they thought. Parents think kids care if they win or lose, there a few but mostly at that age it's just about being somewhere with a group of friends playing a sport, if ya win great, if ya lose oh well you got to talk about the latest video game, or who's gonna win the Cubs game that night. Parents think it's some complex thing but it's 2+2=4. Kids just want to play the game they wanted to play. I've been playing baseball for over 10 years now, and I've still got one more year of high school baseball left, and until you get to the playoffs, or the championship you're just there to play, you win great, you lose oh well life goes on.

So the world will be a much better place when parents stop trying to "help" their kids with things like this. Go outside, play catch with your kid, help his skills, don't worry about what is going on with the other team.

Now if the kids on the Stars were up there throwing high 80's, with a breaking pitch that breaks off the table, then maybe I can see it, but even as a 13 year old we played some team from Chicago that had a kid that threw low 80's with a curveball, and we got slaughtered but it helped us get better because we played someone better.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

No place do I say we will win or be the best team ever.

RK, any coach who guarantees those things is a fool.
But ... any coach who doesn't strive for those things, or at least being the best they can possibly be, is far worse IMO.

... in a league you don't belong in contributes to either of those things I have no idea.

Show me where this team doesn't "belong" in this league & I'll consider that argument. But from what's been pieced together, this looks like some sort of old-school league with teams based on geography (from the zip code blurb & the comment Balldog's friend contributed) -- if so, and they're within the confines of the rules, then they DO "belong" in this league.

[MikeVick7]

Originally Posted by Radii

Sounds like they probably should be a travelling team playing against more serious competition. That's just goofy. Every rec league I was ever in or heard of had equal practice times carved out for each team.. it's a recreation league for a reason.

Exactly. This quote here makes it sound like they really shouldn't have been in that league.

"They were just beating the rec kids up,'' Mirones said. "It's no fun for the kids that are losing.''

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

Now if the kids on the Stars were up there throwing high 80's, with a breaking pitch that breaks off the table, then maybe I can see it, but even as a 13 year old we played some team from Chicago that had a kid that threw low 80's with a curveball, and we got slaughtered but it helped us get better because we played someone better.

So what you played them once? How about one a week?

There's no way you can convince me the coach picked his guys and was SURPRISED at where they were skill wise.

And don't even say they suddenly improved. It's bush league.

They should just let like Florida St. play UNH every week and beat them 120-0.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

God forbid a league exists for the purpose of having fun, learning the game and fostering interest in baseball/team sports growing up. If you don't practice the majority of the hours of the day and win you are shit.

There's no problem with a league existing purely for fun - that's a great thing but the league is the one who screwed up here. Surely someone had to realize that if you let full teams enter the league that someone is going to bring in a stacked all-star team. The team in question appears to have done nothing wrong in forming this team and they are getting punished because nobody else in the league had the foresight to see this coming?

If they want it to be a fun and learning league then they should not allow people to just bring in their own teams. Why ban these kids from playing now? Its fair to them that now they can't be in any league if its too late to join others? They should have to waste a summer playing practice games?

Coaches who run up the score at this level suck and are teaching poor sportsmanship but what is being taught to these kids by the parents and coaches of the other team? If a challenge is too great in life its best to quit and whine about it before you even try? You might get slaughtered even if the other team isn't running up the score but at least you can say you tried your best.

I think it sucks that the parents and coaches are taking away that opportunity for their sons. Losing sucks - getting blownout sucks more and is embarassing but its a hell of a lot better than having your parents and coach basically tell you that you can't compete with someone else so we're not even going to bother to try.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

They allow the superior team to play their hardest, try their best, and obtain victory.

And at no point have I criticized mercy rules as they're used today. Or at least, I haven't meant to (they were brought up in a slightly different context).

But this league didn't apply a mercy rule -- they simply killed the best team in the league completely. Hence my specific pissed-offness at the situation.

On a different tangent, something that just hit me that hasn't been mentioned -- I wonder if anyone knows how this particular league is funded? If there's tax dollars involved (as it almost always the case with "Rec Leagues" in Georgia at least), I'm wondering if they can legally dismiss this team from the league if they have broken no rules.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

RK, any coach who guarantees those things is a fool.
But ... any coach who doesn't strive for those things, or at least being the best they can possibly be, is far worse IMO.

So where did I suggest otherwise?

Striving is not the argument here. That's a function of effort. I never said I tried to lose.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

There's no problem with a league existing purely for fun - that's a great thing but the league is the one who screwed up here. Surely someone had to realize that if you let full teams enter the league that someone is going to bring in a stacked all-star team. The team in question appears to have done nothing wrong in forming this team and they are getting punished because nobody else in the league had the foresight to see this coming?

If they want it to be a fun and learning league then they should not allow people to just bring in their own teams. Why ban these kids from playing now? Its fair to them that now they can't be in any league if its too late to join others? They should have to waste a summer playing practice games?

Coaches who run up the score at this level suck and are teaching poor sportsmanship but what is being taught to these kids by the parents and coaches of the other team? If a challenge is too great in life its best to quit and whine about it before you even try? You might get slaughtered even if the other team isn't running up the score but at least you can say you tried your best.

I think it sucks that the parents and coaches are taking away that opportunity for their sons. Losing sucks - getting blownout sucks more and is embarassing but its a hell of a lot better than having your parents and coach basically tell you that you can't compete with someone else so we're not even going to bother to try.

That's reasonable but I don't fault the league for admitting their mistake and taking actions for the greater good of the league. I think the situation is so obvious here and if you saw a game you might think differently.

Shame on the league but shame on this all star team too. That would be like making our Minor League Little League team play the All Star travelling team once a week.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

So what you played them once? How about one a week?

There's no way you can convince me the coach picked his guys and was SURPRISED at where they were skill wise.

And don't even say they suddenly improved. It's bush league.

They should just let like Florida St. play UNH every week and beat them 120-0.

We actually played them 3 times during that summer because our coach wanted us to improve and the only way you can improve is if you play teams that are better than you. Sorry but facing your average everyday little league pitcher that throws 40-50 MPH isn't going to help you at all. Facing that pitcher 3 times during the summer helped us and by the 3rd game we still lost, but at least we didn't get slaughtered.

And it doesn't really matter if he went out and got the best team possible. The point is that kids had their season ripped away from them by parents who think that their kid's success in a sport reflects on them.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

I never said I tried to lose.

No, but I equate being as good as you can possibly be with an emphasis on winning as much as possible.

But that's not what you stated as your priorities.

One is that the goal is to have fun and be excited about playing baseball. Second, to become better players and third I require effort and participation from everyone...including parents.

Depending on the age group, "having fun" can equate (and often does) with watching cars pass by on the accesss road while a fly ball takes aim on the button on top of your cap.

"Better" is not "as good as you can be", it's just better than you were when you got in.

What's lost in this, most likely, is the reality that winning is fun.
Giving a damn about winning is what makes it interesting.
Otherwise, they might as well be running around in non-concentric circles,
it's actually more exercise than the average youth baseball player gets from practice & games combined.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

And it doesn't really matter if he went out and got the best team possible. The point is that kids had their season ripped away from them by parents who think that their kid's success in a sport reflects on them.

That I would agree with. I have nothing against the kids.

I'm sure you've seen it many times.

I got cursed out and yelled at by a parent in front of the whole attendance in a minor league little league all star game as a result of the umpires mistake. Honestly felt like just quitting and not coaching but just turned around and walked away.

[Blackadar]

I'm a bit saddened by them kicking out this team, probably because of a personal experience about 25 years ago.

The Game of the Century

I played in a House League soccer team when I was 12 or 13 - that was the general "anyone can play" league. We dominated that year - we kicked the crap out of every other house team. At the end of the year, we were moving up to become a traveling team and we were invited to the Annandale Select tourney. Annandale hosted this tourney each year. They were an extremely well funded 13-14 traveling team. We were the only House team invited. Everyone else was an All Star or traveling team.

We drew Annandale the first game. They killed us. 7-0. And it probably wasn't that close. They were much bigger (a head taller than we were), faster, stronger, crisper, etc. It was the most embarassing and lopsided defeat I've ever been involved in. The whole game is just a blur of them running by us, over us, through us and firing shots at the goalie. They played dirty and I do remember that they never let up.

Demoralized, we had to play 3 more games. Everyone thought we'd fold. We didn't. We managed to somehow squeak by 2 All-Star teams and another Select team for the next 3 games. We won all 3 games by 1 goal each and made it into the 2nd round. We were the first House team to ever make Round 2. Everyone thought we were a joke, so they screwed with the brackets and they put us against Annandale again in the semis. They wanted us out of this tourney.

Hold the story so you can relate to the above baseball teams getting crushed. We were in the same situation.

Except we were pissed. It was probably one of the closest, dirtiest, meanest, roughest games I've ever played. For every elbow they threw, we tossed one back. Every kick in the shins was met with a cleat in the calf. We played one of the best games we had ever played to that point. It was my own personal version of the Russians vs. USA in hockey. Totally outclassed, outsized, outmanned and on THEIR field, we fought for every inch. And came out the victors, 2-1.

Postscript: Annandale was so pissed that they tried to change the rules of the tourney so they could have a rubber match. Our coach was pissed and we left that night. So Annandale got to play the Championship game, where they were soundly beaten by a team they had previously defeated. Of course, they knew they didn't deserve to be there and were beaten before they ever took the field.

So back to the original story. I remember much of that game, even 25 years later. By throwing out this really great team, other kids won't have the same opportunity to try to do what I was part of 25 years ago - overcome seemingly insurmountable odds to pull off an upset. I feel badly that they've essentially told the other kids that they're not good enough to compete, so we had to eject the other team. What kind of message is that?

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

No, but I equate being as good as you can possibly be with an emphasis on winning as much as possible.

But that's not what you stated as your priorities.



Depending on the age group, "having fun" can equate (and often does) with watching cars pass by on the accesss road while a fly ball takes aim on the button on top of your cap.

"Better" is not "as good as you can be", it's just better than you were when you got in.

What's lost in this, most likely, is the reality that winning is fun.
Giving a damn about winning is what makes it interesting.
Otherwise, they might as well be running around in non-concentric circles,
it's actually more exercise than the average youth baseball player gets from practice & games combined.

Well we'll just agree to disagree then. I've seen more joy in a kid's eyes from making a great play, blocking a ball or being praised irregardless of whether it was in a "winning" effort.

You always try to win but self worth and value is not solely derived from the final score. It's important but not always the defining factor.