Report: Memphis to vacate Final Four

[kcchief19]

Report: NCAA to strip Memphis of wins in '08 - NCAA Basketball - SI.com

Sounds like they are getting nailed for Derrick Rose cheating on the SAT. They will have to forfeit all their games -- will that make them the first NCAA basketball team to go in the books as 0-40?

This is the second time that both Calipari and Memphis have had to vacate a Final Four appearance.

Wonder if the NCAA will hammer Calipari at Kentucky too? They've got to figure out a way to stop the guy. He's making a mockery of the NCAA and their enforcements if they don't punish him too.

[The Jackal]

The NCAA would have been a great Czar.

[Lathum]

Memphis cheated!!??

In other news, Lance Bass is gay.

[Groundhog]

Poor Mario Chalmers will have to surrender all memories of his last-second shot to send the Kansas-Memphis game to OT.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Poor Mario Chalmers will have to surrender all memories of his last-second shot to send the Kansas-Memphis game to OT.

I think he killed those braincells at the rookie symposium.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I think he killed those braincells at the rookie symposium.

Even so, sounds like he'd out-SAT Derrick Rose regardless.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Even so, sounds like he'd out-SAT Derrick Rose regardless.

That's not saying much

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Wonder if the NCAA will hammer Calipari at Kentucky too? They've got to figure out a way to stop the guy. He's making a mockery of the NCAA and their enforcements if they don't punish him too.

NCAA doesn't punish big names.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Pretty impressive feat by Calipari. He's the first and only coach to ever have two final fours vacated at two different schools. Odds on Kentucky making it a third?

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

NCAA doesn't punish big names.

Restrictions followed Sampson to Indiana.

[GoldenEagle]

My issue is the lack of consistency in enforcing the rules. Darrell Authur was proven to have had transcripts changed. Kansas did not have to forfeit anything and was given no sanctions. Rose is rumored to have had someone take the test for him (no real proof) and Memphis has to vacate everything.

The NCAA is making a mockery of itself.

[NewIdentity]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Restrictions followed Sampson to Indiana.

Really, I don't remember Rick Neuheisel ever getting punished for any of the cheating he has done in college football. The programs always got hammered, but he always seemed to leave one year early.


I seriously doubt they punish Calipari; it would be justice, but I have never seen it happen.

[RedKingGold]

Oh noes don't take away my banners! It's as if 2008 never happened!

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by NewIdentity

I seriously doubt they punish Calipari; it would be justice, but I have never seen it happen.

There is speculation that the reason Cal took the UK job is because he knew he would be 'protected'.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by NewIdentity

I seriously doubt they punish Calipari; it would be justice, but I have never seen it happen.

He really could not be punished unless it is proven he was somehow involved or knew the test was faked, or played Rose after they found out the test was faked. Cal is really off the hook personally on this one, because the testing agency is responsible for verifying id for testers, and the NCAA clearinghouse is responsible for declaring athletes eligible.

Same reason Cal had no sanctions re: Camby. He was later found to have been ineligible because of agent contact prior to their participating in the final four. The wins were 'vacated' even though noone employed by UMass was found to have done anything wrong.

Rick Neuheisel has never been caught cheating has he?

[NewIdentity]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Rick Neuheisel has never been caught cheating has he?

In 2002 the Colorado Buffaloes were placed on two years probation due to 53 NCAA violations. 51 of them were occurred while Neuheisel was their head coach (1995-1998) and many of them were recruiting violations.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by NewIdentity

In 2002 the Colorado Buffaloes were placed on two years probation due to 53 NCAA violations. 51 of them were occurred while Neuheisel was their head coach (1995-1998) and many of them were recruiting violations.

Ahh, he left four years ahead of the storm.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

My issue is the lack of consistency in enforcing the rules. Darrell Authur was proven to have had transcripts changed.

Darrell Arthur was proven to have transcripts changed *in high school* not at KU

SI

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Darrell Arthur was proven to have transcripts changed *in high school* not at KU

SI

Right. Just as Rose allegedly had someone else take his entrance test before coming to Memphis. Both players cheated the system (if you assume Rose is guilty) to get into school. Why is Memphis vacating the season but Kansas is not?

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

Right. Just as Rose allegedly had someone else take his entrance test before coming to Memphis. Both players cheated the system (if you assume Rose is guilty) to get into school. Why is Memphis vacating the season but Kansas is not?

Arthur's was cheating to get eligible for one game in high school, Rose's to get into college. It's a pretty important distinction when you're talking about sanctions by the NCAA, I would think. Arthur's high school already vacated their high school title because he played in that game.

SI

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Darrell Arthur was proven to have transcripts changed *in high school* not at KU

SI

"Compliance doesn't sell tickets."

-KU Athletic Director Al Bohl to a KU NCAA compliance director

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

"Compliance doesn't sell tickets."

-KU Athletic Director Al Bohl to a KU NCAA compliance director

Yeah, not a huge fan of him, either. But that still doesn't address Arthur- just some usual MBBF cheap shotting, I guess.

As an aside, looking up NCAA infractions: "Since the SMU case, there are only three instances where it has seriously considered imposing it against a Division I school; it imposed it against Division II Morehouse College's men's soccer team in 2003 and Division III MacMurray College's men's tennis team in 2005."

Way to go after the big boys with that one...

SI

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Yeah, not a huge fan of him, either. But that still doesn't address Arthur- just some usual MBBF cheap shotting, I guess.

I just have a hard time taking the word of a school that is in the top 5 all time amongst Division I schools in major violations. Judging from KU's history in that regard, if they say it's nothing of note, it's probably something of note. They're about as reliable as Calipari in that regard.

[GoldenEagle]

There is some speculation that the NCAA was going to drop the banhammer on Memphis if Calipari would have stayed at the program. In other words, he was leaving no matter what. He knew if he had stayed at Memphis, the sanctions would have been much more harsh than just vacating. Since Josh Pastner was not even on the staff at the time, the NCAA took it easy on Memphis.

I don't know if it is true or not, but it does make some sense. I guess he was going to Arizona or the NBA if UK did not come calling. I wonder if Cal disclosed the seriousness of the NCAA allegations before accepting the UK job.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Arthur's was cheating to get eligible for one game in high school, Rose's to get into college. It's a pretty important distinction when you're talking about sanctions by the NCAA, I would think. Arthur's high school already vacated their high school title because he played in that game.

SI

But if that grade was not changed, he would not have gotten through the clearing house, correct? I could be wrong.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

But if that grade was not changed, he would not have gotten through the clearing house, correct? I could be wrong.

I got the impression from the stories I read that it was a short term grade, not a long term one- you know how you got grades for like 6 week periods in high school and you added three of those up to get a semester. But i don't know that for sure.

SI

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Report: NCAA to strip Memphis of wins in '08 - NCAA Basketball - SI.com

Sounds like they are getting nailed for Derrick Rose cheating on the SAT. They will have to forfeit all their games -- will that make them the first NCAA basketball team to go in the books as 0-40?

This is the second time that both Calipari and Memphis have had to vacate a Final Four appearance.

Wonder if the NCAA will hammer Calipari at Kentucky too? They've got to figure out a way to stop the guy. He's making a mockery of the NCAA and their enforcements if they don't punish him too.

Vacating wins are is fucking ridiculous. What the hell is this, Men In Black? I hate the NCAA.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Vacating wins are is fucking ridiculous. What the hell is this, Men In Black? I hate the NCAA.

Can I depend upon your support against the NCAA for vacating my dadgum games buddy?

[sterlingice]

I still like that penalty because it's the only time in the history of the NCAA that the "vacating wins" joke has teeth.

Anyone going to forget that Memphis was in the Championship game in 2008?

SI

[molson]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Vacating wins are is fucking ridiculous. What the hell is this, Men In Black? I hate the NCAA.

They need to have more a spine about punishing the present team. I'm tired of hearing about the innocence of the current players. If you want to make sure you have a chance to play in the NCAA tournament - don't go play for coach Cal, and don't play for Memphis. That's the best way to deter violations.

[larrymcg421]

I'd rather stronger penalties on the coaches, to make them equal of what their prior team got. For example, Dennis Erickson left Miami when the violations were about to come out. Miami lost a bowl game the next year and a ton of scholarships. Now, let's say when he decided to come back , he had to suffer the same consequences. Whatever tema hired him would miss their next bowl game and lose a ton of scholarships. If they did that, maybe coaches would be a bit more adamant about running a clean program.

[molson]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I'd rather stronger penalties on the coaches, to make them equal of what their prior team got. For example, Dennis Erickson left Miami when the violations were about to come out. Miami lost a bowl game the next year and a ton of scholarships. Now, let's say when he decided to come back , he had to suffer the same consequences. Whatever tema hired him would miss their next bowl game and lose a ton of scholarships. If they did that, maybe coaches would be a bit more adamant about running a clean program.

There definitely needs to be some kind of strict liability with coaches. It's just too easy to hide behind the staff. If there's a violation on your watch, it should be your violation. It's beyond ridiculous that Calipari can rape and pillage and cash checks and leave carnage in his wake wherever he goes.

[BishopMVP]

Any Duke fans want to defend the difference in punishment re: Maggette/Coach K vs. Camby/Calipari?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Anyone going to forget that Memphis was in the Championship game in 2008?

Tomorrow? Nah.

10-15 years from now when you have to look up stuff online to remember who played who what year? Depends on whether they site footnotes the absence.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Tomorrow? Nah.

10-15 years from now when you have to look up stuff online to remember who played who what year? Depends on whether they site footnotes the absence.

I don't think anyone but the NCAA honors the vacating of wins in terms of record keeping. Occasionally you get an asterisk:

List of the NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament Final Four participants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I wonder what else, if anything, the vacating really means. Do they have to remove reference to those wins from school publications and websites? Are they forbidden to tell a recruit that "we've been to two final fours"?

[DaddyTorgo]

it means nothing. it's a sackless pussified punishment. the punishments need to follow the coaches AND the schools. then we'd see real reform. cheating motherfuckers.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by molson

I wonder what else, if anything, the vacating really means. Do they have to remove reference to those wins from school publications and websites? Are they forbidden to tell a recruit that "we've been to two final fours"?

UMass still has the Final Four banner hanging in the Mullins Center, fwiw.

Originally Posted by Daddy torgo

the punishments need to follow the coaches AND the schools. then we'd see real reform. cheating motherfuckers.

Coming from a BC fan, irony.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Any Duke fans want to defend the difference in punishment re: Maggette/Coach K vs. Camby/Calipari?

Had to refresh my memory on this cases -- I didn't even recall the Maggette deal with Myron Piggie and sadly as a Missouri fan I didn't even remember we had to vacated our 1994 Elite Eight appearance because of Jevon Crudup.

I won't necessarily defend it but say that all four of these cases are different:

Maggette got $2,000 from Myron Piggie before he went to college. Maggette signed his paperwork assuring Duke and the NCAA he had never received any money. In this case, the player committed a violation but Duke was not found to have any knowledge before hand and no reason to know of it.

Jevon Crudup signed with an agent in the middle of NCAA tournament. Big time no-no. Since Missouri had already been hit before by the NCAA, vacating the Elite Eight appearance and the conference title were the only real hits. No wins forfeited.

Camby something like $40,000 or more from agents while in school. The NCAA determined that UMass should have known, and there were other violations as well.

Rose cheated on his SAT and there is every indication that he may have done it with help from the university. The NCAA seems to think that. If Memphis takes the punishment and doesn't fight, we'll know that there was probably much more to the case. Again, as a repeat offender (both Memphis and Calipari), the punishments are harder.

I think the NCAA is doing a better job of punishing the people involved and not people who had nothing to do with it. There's no reason to punish the new team at Memphis for what Calipari did.

But I sure hope they follow the Sampson model and smackdown Calipari. We all know who Calipari is -- let's not be naive. He's Jerry Tarkanian -- I don't think there is a college coach today that operates more outside the rules than Calipari. All we've talked about with Memphis the last few years is how Calipari has been able to get kids into Memphis would coudn't go to another DI school. We all know why.

I don't want to see Kentucky punished but at the same time they knew who they were hiring. I think the NCAA should punish Calipari like Sampson -- making it easy to fire him but not get the school in any trouble.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Let's be honest, I don't think much of Memphis or Calipari. Didn't before this announcement, don't after it. And it sure wouldn't hurt my feelings to see him land UK on super double public triple probation in the next couple of years either.

That said though, the only way I could get behind smacking him for the Rose incident is if they've got proof that he knew what was going on. The head coach is not the only person at a university that could have knowledge of/be complicit in something like this.

Now as I'm typing this, I decide to go back & read the latest version of the wire copy & since I read it last a few hours ago this has been added.

Calipari was not penalized because he was never included in the original notice of allegations, Dee said. He did, however, stress that vacating the record books carries with it an implied punishment.

If they stand by that statement later (i.e. did the chairman of the COI say what he meant to say about Calipari & was he speaking off the cuff and actually indicted him without meaning to) then the coach is definitely skating by on a technicality of the paperwork and UK ought to take a serious look at whether this would qualify as a breech of his contract and the governor of the state might need to revise his comment about "I'm not worried about it because they have never said Coach Cal did anything wrong at all".

So today, if you're Memphis then you ought to be thankful it wasn't worse. Anyone who doubts that someone there knew Rose didn't belong at the university as a student is pretty naive. If you're Kentucky, be afraid, be very afraid. And if you aren't connected to either of the schools then there's really not much here that we didn't already know in our hearts already.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Rose cheated on his SAT and there is every indication that he may have done it with help from the university.

That is not the case. The issue is that the NCAA informed Memphis right before the final four that Derrick Rose might have had someone else take his test. The school administration allowed Rose to play and the NCAA says they should have benched him.

The sanctions were more than just vacating the wins. Memphis also have to give up all money received and is on probation for three years.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

The issue is that the NCAA informed Memphis right before the final four that Derrick Rose might have had someone else take his test.

Umm ...

Memphis originally received the notice of allegations on Jan. 16 and appeared before the committee in June.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Restrictions followed Sampson to Indiana.

Sampson wasn't a huge name. Also, Indiana got off with a slap on the wrist. If the stuff they pulled was at an Eastern Michigan, the school would have been hit much harder.

The NCAA will not punish any major program outside of probations that mean nothing and losing wins in previous years that no one cares about.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Maggette got $2,000 from Myron Piggie before he went to college. Maggette signed his paperwork assuring Duke and the NCAA he had never received any money. In this case, the player committed a violation but Duke was not found to have any knowledge before hand and no reason to know of it.

Camby something like $40,000 or more from agents while in school. The NCAA determined that UMass should have known, and there were other violations as well.

Why should UMass have known, but not Duke?

Originally Posted by NYT

The Courant reported today that Camby had admitted accepting $1,000 from Spears after the season as well as "a couple of thousand" dollars from John Lounsbury, another agent. Camby said he also accepted a diamond necklace worth $3,471.75 and later a Cuban-link chain worth $1,829 from friends. (Camby's friend) Murray, in today's interview, said he had given a necklace to Camby but never told Camby where he got it. Murray contended that Camby was not made aware of the payments and received no money from Spears until after the season.

If there were other violations, please list them, because UMass wasn't punished for any.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Why should UMass have known, but not Duke?

Wouldn't that be because Maggette's offense occurred before he was at the school while Camby's occurred while he was at the school?

[RainMaker]

Sampson got 5 years for making phone calls to recruits against the rules. Calipari gets nothing for allowing an ineligible player to play half the season.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Wouldn't that be because Maggette's offense occurred before he was at the school while Camby's occurred while he was at the school?

Yes, but it mostly occurred in Hartford and after the season. If before school is the question, then let's go back to Rose's case.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Calipari gets nothing for allowing an ineligible player to play half the season.

So, in all seriousness, is that really Cal's call to make? Is their no institutional control of a head coach that could have ordered otherwise since they were notified in January? So either he had too much influence on the decision (which isn't his fault beyond arguing for a bad decision in the first place) or there were people in position to overrule him who failed to exercise their responsibility and that one definitely isn't his fault.

Keep in mind that I'm in favor of doing away with scholarships for at least the revenue generating sports (or at least give the players the option) at the D1 level and making the players all paid employees of the university marketing department.

But until that happens I really don't see the failure here being the coach's even remotely as much as the institution's (presuming the whole SAT scam wasn't Calipari's idea in the first place)

[RainMaker]

It seems Calipari knew he was ineligible from reports. All I'm saying is that if this was John Doe coaching at Florida A&M, he would have been banned from coaching for years and the school would have lost scholarships and postseason eligibility.

Different rules for different schools.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Different rules for different schools.

IF anyone bothers to catch them at all.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Umm ...

If this is true, then Memphis was notified in Jan 2009, after Rose was long gone from the school. I think Memphis was notified that he might have had someone take the test for him right before the Final Four. The official word came down in Jan 2009.