The Trump Presidency – 2016

[JPhillips]

The GOP is a white nationalist party.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by I. J. Reilly

I see you’re an optimist, assuming this is a clear political winner for the Dems.

The sad part is that this statement is so on point. Regardless, Miller is a piece of shit whose views have no place in modern politics, yet he seems as entrenched as anybody in Trumps inner circle.

[Thomkal]

Defense rests in Roger Stone case after playing about 50 mins of Stone testifying to the House. No witnesses and no Stone testifying after his attorney said at one point he would definitely testify.


Rick Gates testified the Stone was the one who was the go-between with Wiki-Links and he was in a car with Trump when Stone called him to talk about it. Closing arguments tomorrow.

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Defense rests in Roger Stone case after playing about 50 mins of Stone testifying to the House. No witnesses and no Stone testifying after his attorney said at one point he would definitely testify.


Rick Gates testified the Stone was the one who was the go-between with Wiki-Links and he was in a car with Trump when Stone called him to talk about it. Closing arguments tomorrow.

#LOCKHIMUP

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The GOP is a white nationalist party.

As a long time member (although likely to jump to independent since the party rarely represents my interests any more), this is not true, and you should be careful about making statements like that.

What it is is a party which has a certain portion of its base that are definitely white nationalists, and for reasons besides white nationalism, it happened to fall into a Presidential candidate in 2016 who caters to those beliefs (and may hold them himself) for political power reasons. His election and white natiomalist leaning decisions have encouraged that element of the party to be more bold, and the rest of the cowardly and hypocritical elected leaders of said party are too afraid of not being re-elected or of losing power to the Dems to challenge him.

The GOP is not a white nationalist party. It is a sad sack hypocrtical party which has sold out its values to stay in power.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

As a long time member (although likely to jump to independent since the party rarely represents my interests any more), this is not true, and you should be careful about making statements like that.

What it is is a party which has a certain portion of its base that are definitely white nationalists, and for reasons besides white nationalism, it happened to fall into a Presidential candidate in 2016 who caters to those beliefs (and may hold them himself) for political power reasons. His election and white natiomalist leaning decisions have encouraged that element of the party to be more bold, and the rest of the cowardly and hypocritical elected leaders of said party are too afraid of not being re-elected or of losing power to the Dems to challenge him.

The GOP is not a white nationalist party. It is a sad sack hypocrtical party which has sold out its values to stay in power.

So it's not a white nationalist party. It just elects white nationalists who staff their administration with white nationalists and have everyone else in the party defend the white nationalist who's main policies are aimed toward white nationalists.

Your argument would have merit if the non-white nationalists in the party were speaking up about this stuff.

If it walks like a duck.....

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

The GOP is not a white nationalist party. It is a sad sack hypocrtical party which has sold out its values to stay in power.

The gop could speak out against white nationalism but they have made the conscience choice not to. Therefore, they support white nationalism, which is probably why they are being called a white nationalist party. A more accurate thing to say would be, they a white nationalist supporting party. A party that is truly not supporting white nationalism would be demanding trump to get rid of people like Stephen Miller.

[RainMaker]

Remember when Gorka wore a Nazi medal to the inaugural ball?

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Remember when Gorka wore a Nazi medal to the inaugural ball?

Checks calendar....nope, it's not 1939. WTF happened to our timeline? Gorka, Miller and Barron Harkonnen (Steve Bannon), I'll trade them any time to get Prince, Tom Petty and Alan Rickman back.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So it's not a white nationalist party. It just elects white nationalists who staff their administration with white nationalists and have everyone else in the party defend the white nationalist who's main policies are aimed toward white nationalists.

Your argument would have merit if the non-white nationalists in the party were speaking up about this stuff.

If it walks like a duck.....

Indeed. It is, at best, a party which tolerates white nationalism. But when you have a party that tolerates white nationalism and it's President is a white nationalist whom no one will speak too forcefully against (well until they leave), well then that's not much of a distinction.

[Chief Rum]

I don't disagree with really any of you. It's an utter shitsjow on that side of the aisle. And that's why I'm checking out of that party. I'm just pointing out it's not as simple as "it's the white nationalist party" and saying so akin to making racist generalized statements about nearly half of the country, ironically.

Considering how the Dems are fighting so hard (correctly) against that sort of label, I thought it might be a good time to point out your hypocrisy.

[thesloppy]

I suppose that's a matter of whether you think "White nationalist party" means a party that is 100% made up of white nationalists, or the party that 100% of white nationalists belong too. The former might not be entirely accurate, but the latter seems practically correct.

[JPhillips]

I stand by the GOP is a white nationalist party.

But I agree that not all GOPers are white nationalists.

They faced a choice after the 2012 election, expand their appeal or motivate those with high racial resentment while doubling down on voter suppression. The choice they made is obvious.

[Edward64]

Proposed definition of white nationalism.

White nationalism - Wikipedia

White nationalism is a type of nationalism or pan-nationalism which espouses the belief that white people are a race[1] and seeks to develop and maintain a white racial and national identity.[2][3][4] Its proponents identify with and are attached to the concept of a white nation.[5] White nationalists say they seek to ensure the survival of the white race, and the cultures of historically white states. They hold that white people should maintain their majority in majority-white countries, maintain their political and economic dominance, and that their cultures should be foremost.[4] Many white nationalists believe that miscegenation, multiculturalism, immigration of nonwhites and low birth rates among whites are threatening the white race,[6] and some believe these things are being promoted as part of an attempted white genocide.[6]

Analysts describe white nationalism as overlapping with white supremacism and white separatism.[7][4][6][8][9][10] White nationalism is sometimes described as a euphemism for, or subset of, white supremacism, and the two have been used interchangeably by journalists and analysts.[8][11] White separatism is the pursuit of a "white-only state"; supremacism is the belief that white people are superior to nonwhites and should dominate them,[6][8][9] taking ideas from social Darwinism and Nazism.[12] White nationalists generally avoid the term "supremacy" because it has negative connotations.[13][14]

Proposed definition of Nationalism.

Nationalism - Wikipedia

Nationalism is an ideology and movement that promotes the interests of a particular nation (as in a group of people)[1] especially with the aim of gaining and maintaining the nation's sovereignty (self-governance) over its homeland. Nationalism holds that each nation should govern itself, free from outside interference (self-determination), that a nation is a natural and ideal basis for a polity,[2] and that the nation is the only rightful source of political power (popular sovereignty).[1][3] It further aims to build and maintain a single national identity—based on shared social characteristics such as culture, language, religion, politics, and belief in a shared singular history[4][5][page needed]—and to promote national unity or solidarity.[1] Nationalism, therefore, seeks to preserve and foster a nation's traditional culture, and cultural revivals have been associated with nationalist movements.[6] It also encourages pride in national achievements, and is closely linked to patriotism.[7][page needed]

"White nationalism" is associated with white supremacy/racism. If that's the definition we are using here, I do think its an over generalization of the GOP.

I offered the definition of "nationalism" because that is what I think the GOP gravitates towards, not "white nationalism".

But yeah, Trump has 100% of white nationalists rooting for him.

[JPhillips]

White nationalism is a type of nationalism or pan-nationalism which espouses the belief that white people are a race[1] and seeks to develop and maintain a white racial and national identity.[2][3][4] Its proponents identify with and are attached to the concept of a white nation.[5] White nationalists say they seek to ensure the survival of the white race, and the cultures of historically white states. They hold that white people should maintain their majority in majority-white countries, maintain their political and economic dominance, and that their cultures should be foremost.[4] Many white nationalists believe that miscegenation, multiculturalism, immigration of nonwhites and low birth rates among whites are threatening the white race,[6] and some believe these things are being promoted as part of an attempted white genocide.

Literally all of this comes from the WH, GOPers in congress, and state level elected GOPers.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I suppose that's a matter of whether you think "White nationalist party" means a party that is 100% made up of white nationalists, or the party that 100% of white nationalists belong too. The former might not be entirely accurate, but the latter seems practically correct.

A+

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I don't disagree with really any of you. It's an utter shitsjow on that side of the aisle. And that's why I'm checking out of that party. I'm just pointing out it's not as simple as "it's the white nationalist party" and saying so akin to making racist generalized statements about nearly half of the country, ironically.

Considering how the Dems are fighting so hard (correctly) against that sort of label, I thought it might be a good time to point out your hypocrisy.

If it's not about white nationalism, what is it about? They haven't been fiscally conservative in 4 decades now. Oppose free trade now. Shit on that whole family values bit the fake Christians were running with. Don't care much about law and order.

Seriously, what do these non-white nationalists stand for that they get out of today's Republican party? Because that party has flipped on a lot of issues they used to tout and seems much more like a cult of personality at this point.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I don't disagree with really any of you. It's an utter shitsjow on that side of the aisle. And that's why I'm checking out of that party. I'm just pointing out it's not as simple as "it's the white nationalist party" and saying so akin to making racist generalized statements about nearly half of the country, ironically.

Considering how the Dems are fighting so hard (correctly) against that sort of label, I thought it might be a good time to point out your hypocrisy.

It's been a white nationalist party since Nixon made the conscious decision to pursue the "Southern Strategy" and place the grievance politics of white Southerners at the heart of his bid for the Presidency.

What it hasn't been is overtly white nationalist until, oh, the last 17 years or so.

The dog whistle's been blown with regularity, but it wasn't until post-9/11 that the really virulent strain of white nationalism that currently infects the party as a policy matter began to rear its head.

Now, as others have pointed out, the GOP being, essentially, a white nationalist party doesn't mean all of its members are, themselves, white nationalists - but to the extent members remain who don't explicitly believe in that ideology, it's because they're wrapped up in defining themselves in opposition to Democrats; unable to see what's become of the party in the last 18 years; or unwilling to see.

Trump has repeatedly shown us that he approves of white nationalist ideology, even if he hasn't thrown up the Nazi salute and started singing the Horst Wessel song. He's shown us with the things he's retweeted, the people he's appointed, and the policies he's pursued.

The GOP has enabled that at every step, either because they ALSO approve, or because they're terrified of the response of Trump's supporters if they cross him.

To the extent that their enabling behavior is a terror response, that is an implicit admission that the base is ALSO substantially white nationalist.

There isn't a third option there. There is no world in which they disapprove of the President's policies, decline to try to thwart those policies, AND have no fear of political blowback from his base.

The party is what it is. The adherents who remain who are not, themselves, white nationalists have some soul searching to do, and it's not clear that they're willing to do it.

[Chief Rum]

So you all acknowledge that not every member of the GOP is a white nationalist?

[Chief Rum]

Not every black kid from the ghetto is a gangbanger.

Not every Mexican immigrant is here illegally.

Not every welfare recipient is a freeloader taking advantage of a social good.

You all would agree with these statements, yes?

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

So you all acknowledge that not every member of the GOP is a white nationalist?

I'll just repeat what I said in my last post:

to the extent members remain who don't explicitly believe in that ideology, it's because they're wrapped up in defining themselves in opposition to Democrats; unable to see what's become of the party in the last 18 years; or unwilling to see.

The GOP is a white nationalist party. Whether everybody who self-identifies as a Republican is also a white nationalist is...not relevant to the larger context.

They vote for people who either actively support white nationalist policy goals; for people who may not actively say YEAH! but are nonetheless okay with those goals; and for people who are afraid of the political consequences of trying to thwart those goals.

Those are the folks in power within the party, and those are the folks rank-and-file Republicans prefer to any given Democrat. Comes the moment when what you do speaks louder than what you claim to be.

You say you're leaving the GOP because you no longer see your ideals reflected in it. Good for you. I mean that honestly, with no sarcasm. That's one of the most difficult things anybody can come to grips with.

But on your way out the door, look at the smoldering wreck you're leaving behind. Really look at it. See it for what it is. That doesn't mean you're a white nationalist, or that Republican friends and family are white nationalists...but white nationalists are the people who hold the reins in that party, and there doesn't seem to be any real appetite from the base for the fight necessary to eradicate those termites from the GOP's foundation.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

So....which is it?



1) This is fantastic. People made shitloads of money and the market is fantastic and there is nothing anyone can say to take that away. He deserves all the praise because without him, there is nothing, and we're all poor.


2) He cut taxes for all of these companies resulting in massive bull market deficits. Massive. Like, the kind of deficit the last president got crushed for, during a massive recession. All this is just make believe, because when this bubble bursts, there's no way it's not going to be a difficult recovery.





No president has ever handed out trillion dollar stimulus packages during bull market economies. None. So yeah, live it up, take your cut, but that doesn't impact everyone. If you've got money, you're making tons more right now. It's easy, but those lazy poor people who work 2 jobs to pay rent and can't invest get nothing. Except, when the bust happens. Then they lose everything and the people with the money come in, buy it all up again, and resell it back to them when they get on their feet, if they're not homeless or dead.



The Great Recession was the biggest transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich. This is just setting us up for round two. How are trillion dollar deficits in an expanding, but slowing economy alright?


The market is still ripping along. I'm up almost 25% on the year, but the gdp is slowing. It's not even going more than 3% right now, and it never hit 5%. Obama had good returns too, so all this is still pimped from the stimulus. Obama couldn't even get a 200b stimulus passed when the economy was still trying to recover because the R's were all over his shit about the deficit. Now how are they?



The market is going to tank when trump loses because it knows what is coming. The end is near, and if he loses the next leader will have some very different ideas on how we should be handing out money to businesses and corporations. The whole point before was to avoid the instability and create stability that people could count on. The next crash is just going to prove that point all over again.

I assume Edward since you ignored this you agree with Pilotman’s points?

[Flasch186]

Accidentally the Dems are trying to give the GOP a way to save their party. If they lose the impeachment fight and Trump remains and god forbid wins in the fall of next year, the GOP party becomes even more drained of anything pre-Trump. The vestiges of anything that which the GOP party was before is gone for good... perhaps a viable 3rd party pops up in what used to be the GOP as we knew it. If they do meet in a closet somewhere and determine that this path way to wrestling control of the GOP back to that which it was perhaps some GOP senators will vote to impeach him.

If that thought process and conspiracy formulation doesn't occur, the Senate does not vote to convict and GOP can rot in its hole. The Grand Ole Party as it's been known to stand for, is dead.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Galaril

I assume Edward since you ignored this you agree with Pilotman’s points?

Busy doing a proposal response right now, will read more carefully and respond later.

BTW - up 25% is pretty impressive. I checked and stock gains is about 17% for me this year (overall more because of 401k contributions though).

[JPhillips]

You need a Ph.D. in right-wing conspiracies to understand the GOP questions to Taylor.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

You need a Ph.D. in right-wing conspiracies to understand the GOP questions to Taylor.

Or be a Fox News viewer

I'm following through 538. It seems the GOP doesn't really have a defense for Trump. They're just throwing shit against the wall to make it look like they're trying.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Or be a Fox News viewer

I'm following through 538. It seems the GOP doesn't really have a defense for Trump. They're just throwing shit against the wall to make it look like they're trying.

You can definitely tell who studied for the test.

[kingfc22]

Jim Jordan is a clown.

All he does is try to talk as fast as possible while presenting zero arguments.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

I'll just repeat what I said in my last post:



The GOP is a white nationalist party. Whether everybody who self-identifies as a Republican is also a white nationalist is...not relevant to the larger context.

They vote for people who either actively support white nationalist policy goals; for people who may not actively say YEAH! but are nonetheless okay with those goals; and for people who are afraid of the political consequences of trying to thwart those goals.

Those are the folks in power within the party, and those are the folks rank-and-file Republicans prefer to any given Democrat. Comes the moment when what you do speaks louder than what you claim to be.

You say you're leaving the GOP because you no longer see your ideals reflected in it. Good for you. I mean that honestly, with no sarcasm. That's one of the most difficult things anybody can come to grips with.

But on your way out the door, look at the smoldering wreck you're leaving behind. Really look at it. See it for what it is. That doesn't mean you're a white nationalist, or that Republican friends and family are white nationalists...but white nationalists are the people who hold the reins in that party, and there doesn't seem to be any real appetite from the base for the fight necessary to eradicate those termites from the GOP's foundation.

Equivocate all you want but the vast majority of the GOP membership are not white nationalists. A poll conducted by the University of Alabama by a professor with decades of experience in demographics set the percentage of white non-Hispanic Americans which hold predominantly alt-right views at 5.64% of some 198 million. Even allowing that every one of those 5.64% are Republicans, that is still at best 10% of the GOP voter base. While that is scsry enough, it falls well short of calling an entire section of the country whitw nationalists.

I suppose it's only not okay to throw out massive racist generalizations when your GOP. For Dems, they're allowed to do it.

[Chief Rum]

I hate the GOP establishment clowns. They really are the worst shills of all time. And they do it for, of all people, perhaps the worst person ever to be elected to office (much less President).

[Lathum]

Listening to the republicans cross examination. I had no idea Hunter Biden was on trial for impeachment.

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Listening to the republicans cross examination. I had no idea Hunter Biden was on trial for impeachment.

That or Obama "whispering" to a Ukrainian President two years before Crimea was invaded.

Or Adam Schiff and his staff having some super secret conversations with the whistleblower.

R's strategy is just to throw as much shit up in the air to confuse the conversation.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Equivocate all you want but the vast majority of the GOP membership are not white nationalists. A poll conducted by the University of Alabama by a professor with decades of experience in demographics set the percentage of white non-Hispanic Americans which hold predominantly alt-right views at 5.64% of some 198 million. Even allowing that every one of those 5.64% are Republicans, that is still at best 10% of the GOP voter base. While that is scsry enough, it falls well short of calling an entire section of the country whitw nationalists.

I suppose it's only not okay to throw out massive racist generalizations when your GOP. For Dems, they're allowed to do it.

I'm not a Democrat. I was a lifelong Republican until the party left me behind in the aftermath of 9/11, and went somewhere I wasn't willing to follow.

But, sure, keep playing the tribalist games instead of recognizing the GOP for what it is.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

That or Obama "whispering" to a Ukrainian President two years before Crimea was invaded.

Or Adam Schiff and his staff having some super secret conversations with the whistleblower.

R's strategy is just to throw as much shit up in the air to confuse the conversation.

It really is amazing.

They have zero defense for what Trump did so they will continue to attack the process and the witnesses.

How can anyone watch this and not see it for what it is? How can you watch this performance from the republicans and be like, yeah, I get what they are saying and agree.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Lathum

It really is amazing.

They have zero defense for what Trump did so they will continue to attack the process and the witnesses.

How can anyone watch this and not see it for what it is? How can you watch this performance from the republicans and be like, yeah, I get what they are saying and agree.

1000% agree with you. They know they can't defend trump one bit, so they are playing it up for their voting base and trying to 'win' by appealing to the Court of Public Opinion. Fox 'news' will show clips of Gym Jordan spewing some garbage and then claim that he proved trump's innocence because no one could answer his asinine questions. They are playing their voters like a fiddle and their voters are all lining up like fish waiting to be fed more and more. And they do this because they know it works and gets them re-elected.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Equivocate all you want but the vast majority of the GOP membership are not white nationalists. A poll conducted by the University of Alabama by a professor with decades of experience in demographics set the percentage of white non-Hispanic Americans which hold predominantly alt-right views at 5.64% of some 198 million. Even allowing that every one of those 5.64% are Republicans, that is still at best 10% of the GOP voter base. While that is scsry enough, it falls well short of calling an entire section of the country whitw nationalists.

I suppose it's only not okay to throw out massive racist generalizations when your GOP. For Dems, they're allowed to do it.

What do these non-white nationalists see in Trump? Like I said, he is the opposite of all the stuff the party pretended it stood for.

It's been the party of white nationalism since the Southern Strategy. People in the party have outright admitted who amd what they are targeting.

[cartman]

So if Hunter Biden was getting $50k/month working in Ukraine, he'd have to work 100 years to get the same amount that Manafort got from Ukraine.

[spleen1015]

It's all about winning. Somehow with politics in this country it is all about winning.

I have many friends who are Republican and support everything this clown does. These are smart, successful people. People I love and respect a great deal.

It all comes down to one thing. The Dems can't win.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What do these non-white nationalists see in Trump? Like I said, he is the opposite of all the stuff the party pretended it stood for.

It's been the party of white nationalism since the Southern Strategy. People in the party have outright admitted who amd what they are targeting.

They are still the party of deluded self-interest. If you think you're eventually going to be rich and are happy to sell out your current self in order to protect the assets you think you will inevitably have in the future, then the GOP is for you. Likewise, they're still there for folks who value their own gun rights above other people's lives.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

It's all about winning. Somehow with politics in this country it is all about winning.

I have many friends who are Republican and support everything this clown does. These are smart, successful people. People I love and respect a great deal.

It all comes down to one thing. The Dems can't win.

The problem is where does a Republican who disagrees with how Trump is doing things go?

Voting for the Democrats who probably differ from you on a lot of issues is not a good option. Let's not forget, this is the same party of people that is calling you an idiot and a fool for voting how you did. Also, you are not voting in your best interest because you did not vote how they wanted you to vote.

Do you vote for a third party? A party that does not have a lot of power and may or may not agree with you on important issues? What are your top 3 issues, does this party agree or disagree with you on those issues? Does this party agree with how international negotiations should take place? Is the party isolationist or not?

Or, do you hold your nose, vote for the current Republican in office and hope for the best?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

They are still the party of deluded self-interest. If you think you're eventually going to be rich and are happy to sell out your current self in order to protect the assets you think you will inevitably have in the future, then the GOP is for you. Likewise, they're still there for folks who value their own gun rights above other people's lives.

His base are older people who have to know they're never going to be billionaires.

As for gun control, every candidate running had the same beliefs. Most with much longer track records. Heck, Trump was calling for background checks and other things the NRA hates just a few years before running.

So why latch on to the white nationalist instead of the others?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

The problem is where does a Republican who disagrees with how Trump is doing things go?

Voting for the Democrats who probably differ from you on a lot of issues is not a good option. Let's not forget, this is the same party of people that is calling you an idiot and a fool for voting how you did. Also, you are not voting in your best interest because you did not vote how they wanted you to vote.

Do you vote for a third party? A party that does not have a lot of power and may or may not agree with you on important issues? What are your top 3 issues, does this party agree or disagree with you on those issues? Does this party agree with how international negotiations should take place? Is the party isolationist or not?

Or, do you hold your nose, vote for the current Republican in office and hope for the best?

He won a primary against a dozen or so other Republicans. He has a 90% approval rating among Republicans. These people you're talking about are a tiny minority.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

The problem is where does a Republican who disagrees with how Trump is doing things go?

Voting for the Democrats who probably differ from you on a lot of issues is not a good option. Let's not forget, this is the same party of people that is calling you an idiot and a fool for voting how you did. Also, you are not voting in your best interest because you did not vote how they wanted you to vote.

Do you vote for a third party? A party that does not have a lot of power and may or may not agree with you on important issues? What are your top 3 issues, does this party agree or disagree with you on those issues? Does this party agree with how international negotiations should take place? Is the party isolationist or not?

Or, do you hold your nose, vote for the current Republican in office and hope for the best?

That's me and I know where I am going. I am voting Democrat in the next presidential election because he's unfit for the office. This country is better off with a Democratic president then it is with him.

So, I will vote Dem and hope for the best. Living in Indiana, it likely won't matter but at least I'll know I did the right thing.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

I'm not a Democrat. I was a lifelong Republican until the party left me behind in the aftermath of 9/11, and went somewhere I wasn't willing to follow.

But, sure, keep playing the tribalist games instead of recognizing the GOP for what it is.

You weren't the only one saying it. And labeling a group of people for the views of a minority is still racist. Keep up that hidden ball trick bud.

Or you know acknowledge overgeneralizations like that are wrong. Which I know you won't do.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

So....which is it?

Don't think these 2 are mutually exclusive and I don't agree with every thing in each paragraph.

1) This is fantastic. People made shitloads of money and the market is fantastic and there is nothing anyone can say to take that away. He deserves all the praise because without him, there is nothing, and we're all poor.

Agree with first 2 sentences, not on the third. Market is cyclical, he deserves some credit for "extending" the Obama run up (although I'm pretty surprised how well the market has done considering how he has caused so much uncertainty).

2) He cut taxes for all of these companies resulting in massive bull market deficits. Massive. Like, the kind of deficit the last president got crushed for, during a massive recession. All this is just make believe, because when this bubble bursts, there's no way it's not going to be a difficult recovery.

Companies and Top 1% (who own a very large chunk of the market). I certainly don't think this is make believe, the strength of the economy and stock market (they are related but not the same) from everything I've read is pretty good.

So how I would put it is ...

The strength of the economy & stock market - he gets substantial credit but not near all. The Fed obviously has a role, the tax cut has some role, his friendly policies towards big business etc.

To the Trump diehards. It looks good now but its not all played out and its not as if he is that much greater than other recent Presidents. Trump and China could easily rock the economy and stock market. The article says Trump could fall out of the top 4

To the never Trumpers. Give him some credit. Yes, its at a cost to the deficit and debt but can you realistically say a Hillary would not have run up the deficit and debt either?

No president has ever handed out trillion dollar stimulus packages during bull market economies. None. So yeah, live it up, take your cut, but that doesn't impact everyone. If you've got money, you're making tons more right now. It's easy, but those lazy poor people who work 2 jobs to pay rent and can't invest get nothing. Except, when the bust happens. Then they lose everything and the people with the money come in, buy it all up again, and resell it back to them when they get on their feet, if they're not homeless or dead.

I don't agree with everything you stated but I agree with the general sentiment. I agree, the rich did get richer, poor didn't benefit much other than maybe low unemployment rates, middle class benefited some but not as much as the rich (e.g. 50+% are in the stock market in one way or another).

How are trillion dollar deficits in an expanding, but slowing economy alright?

Its not alright. Two points.

1) We need to discuss the debt in context. I propose % of GDP. In chart below, debt exceeds 100% whereas it was < 70% 10+ years ago. But note the years and the shared blame.

2) Same question as above, do you think Hillary would have reduced the deficit/debt? An argument could be made that she would not have increased it as much as Trump or would have done it for more "worthwhile" causes (e.g. healthcare) but I don't think she would have reduced the debt.

So the problem remains. We do not have GOP, Trump, Dem politicians in place that is willing to make the hard decisions to get this monster under control.

400 Bad Request.

The market is still ripping along. I'm up almost 25% on the year, but the gdp is slowing. It's not even going more than 3% right now, and it never hit 5%. Obama had good returns too, so all this is still pimped from the stimulus. Obama couldn't even get a 200b stimulus passed when the economy was still trying to recover because the R's were all over his shit about the deficit. Now how are they?

I agree, Trumps market returns are solid and if it continues upward it'll be great but I don't think we can really make full judgement (e.g. better than Obama, Clinton etc.) until the end of his term whenever that is.

I also agree that GOP are hypocritical on fiscal constraint.

* * * * *

I think the basic point you are trying to make is (1) yes the stock market and economy as a whole is doing well so far but there are many people left out, many people hurt and (2) we are mortgaging our/kid's future with debt ... and therefore is it worth it?

(1) is debatable based on our personal circumstance and beliefs. For (2), its clearly a no for me but the question is there any candidate/political party that you truly believe will realistically reduce the debt and/or increase grow the economy/GDP to significantly reduce the ratio we have now?

I honestly don't see a solution for (2) with who we have to consider in 2020.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

You weren't the only one saying it. And labeling a group of people for the views of a minority is still racist. Keep up that hidden ball trick bud.

Or you know acknowledge overgeneralizations like that are wrong. Which I know you won't do.

It may qualify as generalizing, but it certainly isn't racist. Nationalists and Republicans aren't races and nobody is being criticized simply for being white

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

I'm not a Democrat. I was a lifelong Republican until the party left me behind in the aftermath of 9/11, and went somewhere I wasn't willing to follow.

But, sure, keep playing the tribalist games instead of recognizing the GOP for what it is.

Oh what the hell some other points.

As to your political affiliation... walks like a duck, talks like a duck, yadayada. Just own it for once. You have espoused your leaving the Republican Party card about a million times now. You really think I'm unaware of that? You wear it like its some sort of ridiculous proud badge of honor.

Second, I hate the GOP nearly as much as Dems now. Not about tribalism for me. It's about right and wrong. It's wrong to label an entire group of people for the actions of a few. Sorry if my shining a spotlight on the hypocrisy of some of the posters here disturbs you.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

It may qualify as generalizing, but it certainly isn't racist. Nationalists and Republicans aren't races and nobody is being criticized simply for being white

Is it not still wrong?

And everyone knows the vast majority of the Republican Party is white. Don't pretend race isn't a part of this discussion.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

That's me and I know where I am going. I am voting Democrat in the next presidential election because he's unfit for the office. This country is better off with a Democratic president then it is with him.

So, I will vote Dem and hope for the best. Living in Indiana, it likely won't matter but at least I'll know I did the right thing.

Me too. Of course in CA that's just one more drop in the bucket.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

As to your political affiliation... walks like a duck, talks like a duck, yadayada. Just own it for once. You have espoused your leaving the Republican Party card about a million times now. You really think I'm unaware of that? You wear it like its some sort of ridiculous proud badge of honor.

This is an ironic statement. Walks like a white nationalist party, talks like a white nationalist party, yadayada.

Everyone in it doesn't have to be a white nationalist if the leadership is. It's like saying well, I'm not a Communist so you can't call Maduro's party in Venezuela (named the United Socialist Party of Venezuela) a Communist Party because I'm a member, even if the leadership is Communist.

It seems so defensive for no real reason other than you want to deny that the leadership of the Republican Party are white nationalists.