2014 FIFA World Cup

[flere-imsaho]

That's a good point, ISiddiqui. I think there can be a tendency, when one has a player like Messi (or Ronaldo) to make decisions a certain way based on a feeling that the superstar will save you regardless, or will have an undue effect on your team.

Tevez had a good year for Juve, too, right?

[ISiddiqui]

19 goals, IIRC. 3rd highest in Serie A. And, of course, Juventus won the league as well.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

In hindsight, Sabella's issues with Carlos Tevez may very much have cost Argentina a World Cup.

Or to flip it round, it's just as accurate to say Tevez's general attitude may have cost his country a World Cup

[ISiddiqui]

It seems to me that it was Sabella that was holding the grudge there.

Tevez had been underperforming since the 2010 World Cup, up until this last season, where he seemed to have turned it all around. I think Tevez's form should have warranted a place in the side.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Katon

. . . and apart from matchwinning moments against Iran, Bosnia, and Switzerland (though he wasn't great for most of those matches), and apart from being one of the best players on the pitch against Belgium.

Messi had a fine tournament up through the quarterfinals, and would've been a plausible Golden Ball candidate if the tournament stopped there, it's just that Germany and the Netherlands shut him down completely. Di Maria going down really hurt because none of the other Argentine attackers did anything to draw attention whatsoever.

Good points, perhaps I'm being too harsh. I didn't mean to say he played horrible, 'invisible' just summed up how little he seemed to be in play. He did have that one moment against Bosnia-Herzegovina and against Iran. Perhaps expectations were so high, it was near impossible to live up to those?

[whomario]

Messi seemed tired all tournament and the tactic seemed designed to ease his workload as much as possible. I don´t know how it compares to his normal numbers, but he logged a quite low number of kilometers run in the tournament iirc.

He has basically played year round for such a long time now, it was bound to affect him at some point. (Heck, by now i think it was a blessing in disguised that basically all the important german players played comparably few games this season due to injury)

I think it was pretty obvious that the argentine team tried to use him as sort of an ace-in-the-hole and also as sort of a decoy rather than a constant playmaker (which has not really worked for Messi in the argentina squad i think)

He played much more agressively and on the ball against Germany imo and ran out of gas at about the 60 minute mark.

The men in blazers podcast mentioned that it seems to get harder and harder for brilliant players to influence play to a degree where they can decide games consistently, much less dominate them. Messi managed to basically decide 4 games and he dictated the other teams tactics throughout the tournament (even though germany did not man-mark him like the dutch, the did heavily gravitate to him and made some key adjustments in their defensive and offensive positioning to not let him drift into open spaces)

Other than James (and he disapeared for long stretches as well), Neymar and Robben (who is just so noticeable because of his incredible condition to make run after run) i don´t think there really was a dominant offensive player.

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, Robben had a motor that just wouldn't quit. Late in games, he was making sprinting runs, when everyone else on both teams were gassed.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

It seems to me that it was Sabella that was holding the grudge there.

Tevez had been underperforming since the 2010 World Cup, up until this last season, where he seemed to have turned it all around. I think Tevez's form should have warranted a place in the side.

My point is regardless of ability, if you've got a bad apple in the squad, it can easily destroy morale. Look at the Dutch and French in recent years, and in the latter case Nasri definitely deserved a place at least in the squad if not the team, but was omitted as Deschamps felt that if he was not playing every game he would be a cancer to the squad.

That's what Tevez is: on ability, without question a good player, as a squad member, if he doesn't get his way he is a liability.

[ISiddiqui]

I feel the entire "bad morale" thing is simply an excuse used by many managers to exercise grudges they have against a particular well known player.

[Critch]

There have been a few rumors that it's Messi who has issues with Tevez, not Sabella.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I feel the entire "bad morale" thing is simply an excuse used by many managers to exercise grudges they have against a particular well known player.

on the other hand, there are multiple examples where "bad morale" absolutely sunk a team. You can go ahead and say things like "it was overblown because they lost" but there were definitely teams where those things mattered (and as said, the french and dutch have been notorious for that in the past)
A manager has to trust his players and the players need to get along. So while i agree that the line between "grudge" and "concern" is a fine one, i can accept that a manager has to choose the team he thinks works best as a group. I mean, for Germany Low basically nominated a couple designated cheerleaders and repeatedly left out players who did not follow what he set as the standard of behaviour within the team circle. The german press cried and cried about this being the reason that there were no "leaders" left, but no one is crying now after the "nice guys" won the title.

[MIJB#19]

Interesting how the World Cup 1990 and Euro 1996 have given Oranje such a bad name. Rightfully so for those two particular selections, they were arguably the two squads in history that actually were favorites to achieve something, but instead fell apart over internal conflict and since 1974 were arguably the worst tournament results, aside from 1980 (weak generation), 2012 and the few missed tournaments.

In that regard, it makes sense to leave a player like Carlos Tevez (with his bad boy reputation) out of the squad to increase the team spirit and chance to achieve something.

[ISiddiqui]

On the other hand, that sort of thinking would lead to Italy leaving Mario Balotelli out of the squad in 2012 Euro or the 2014 WC (2014 WC was disapointing, but in the 2012 Euro, Italy was in the finals)

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

On the other hand, that sort of thinking would lead to Italy leaving Mario Balotelli out of the squad in 2012 Euro or the 2014 WC (2014 WC was disapointing, but in the 2012 Euro, Italy was in the finals)

Although Italy reached the final in 2012, it was more luck than skill. They won just one of their first four games (although I think it's fair to count the 0-0 and penalties vs. England as a win), peaked against Germany in the semi's, then finished the tournament with the biggest defeat of the tournament resulting in a negative goal difference over six games.

The difference between Balotelli and Tevez is that Italy has no other options, while Argentina has several. When you have Aguero, Higuain and that Messi dude as the other options, it makes for a much easier decision. Heck, Palacio wasn't a bad alternative either...

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Although Italy reached the final in 2012, it was more luck than skill. They won just one of their first four games (although I think it's fair to count the 0-0 and penalties vs. England as a win), peaked against Germany in the semi's, then finished the tournament with the biggest defeat of the tournament resulting in a negative goal difference over six games.

That is more than a 'tad' harsh - you don't get to the final of a major International soccer tournament by luck ... yes they weren't a free scoring team in the tournament and somewhat ground their way through, but 'luck' no ...

You're also forgetting that while they lost the final heavily they managed to draw against Spain in the group stage.

[MIJB#19]

I didn't say it was all luck, surely Balotelli and Pirlo had their moments, but I think they were luckier than most teams that reach some sort of final. At least that's what I remember from Euro2012.

[whomario]

Dunno what is the right thread but figure it relates more here. Germany captain Phillip lahm retires from the national team, at age 30 ...

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by whomario

Dunno what is the right thread but figure it relates more here.

There's a 2014-15 soccer thread kicking about where most of us have moved on.

Germany captain Phillip lahm retires from the national team, at age 30 ...

A great way to go out.

[flounder]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

There's a 2014-15 soccer thread kicking about where most of us have moved on.

You can't really blame him for lingering in this thread, though.

[flere-imsaho]

Haha, of course not!

[Alf]

Originally Posted by whomario

Dunno what is the right thread but figure it relates more here. Germany captain Phillip lahm retires from the national team, at age 30 ...

Owww. Someone really needs to convince him not to do that.