Game of Thrones on HBO

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

It's been brought up here before with particular individual incidents, and the last episode was a bit of a respite, but after re-watching a few recent episodes: this show really suffers from 'Rocky' disease when it comes to one-on-one combat. There's seemingly a dozen bad-ass warriors on the show, who come with some story of amazing skill and bravery that happened off-screen, yet when it comes time to actually fight the aforementioned bad-ass looks completely over-matched by any random foe, for 95% of the fight, only to win with some sort of lucky flourish or deus ex machina.

Similarly cliched relics of Hollywood groupthink seem to occasionally pop-up when the show is filling in the blanks, which gives me a little bit of trepidation about the show as it gets further and further away from the written material, and the writers are left to their own devices.

I agree with the sentiment on the action, though I do think there has been some well-established fighters.

The opposite example, which I loved, was Jorah's first pit fighting scene where he was wearing the mask and completely destroyed the 4-5 other pitfighters. Completely outclassed them as you'd expect a supposedly elite fighter (albeit aging) to dispatch with common thugs. But then fast forward to his second pitfight scene, and he looks like a broken old man who needs luck to survive. These 2 scenes are just confusing as I'm not sure why he had to get lucky in the 2nd scene other than we needed to see that Dany cares for him and didn't want to see him get hurt (though did nothing to interfere prior to his luck).

Another good example is the big red-haired wildling dude who goes apeshit on everybody. I buy that this guy is a warrior and a badass. So his scene where he pretty much pummels the other wildling and goes unchallenged really makes sense to me.

Brienne is a good example of well-established fighter. This girl sparred with Jaime (when he was still a good fighter) and took out the Hound by herself. She is possibly the most established badass on the show, perhaps short of the Mountain.

But then there is Stannis. The lone survivor of his area of the fight, yet we haven't seen this guy do anything physical to suggest he is still that kind of warrior in his older age. Just made it too convenient and cliche for me. I go with it because I have to, but I don't like it.

Robb Stark is another example similar to Stannis. He's winning battles and all but I never felt convinced of his warrior skills or his battle commander skills, even though I was supposed to.

So a bit hit & miss for me. We always hear (and we all kind of agree) they are so constrained by time with only 10 episodes per season but then they can waste our time with Ramsey Snow torturing Theon for 5 minutes per episode in S2(?), pointless Sansa rape scenes, pointless Arya minutiae, etc. when they could have spent a couple of minutes establishing the credentials of certain people better and efficiently.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

He actually wanted a total of 3 seasons for AFFC and ADWD combined, which is fairly reasonable to me. If the show treated Dorne well and introduced the Iron Islands (which it seems they'll do next season), they could have at least done 2 seasons of the 2 books.

I don't know the books at all, so this is purely based on the show.

But it seems to me that 2 more seasons is not adequate to wrap this story up in any sort of satisfying way. It feels like it will have to be hurried through really, really big plot points in order to get through it. And perhaps worst of all, would be an unsatisfactory conclusion where we don't learn about all of the magics, religions, gods, dragons, special powers, etc. which seem to be more prominent now than they were in the first season or 2. That would be very unsatisfactory for me.

[Edward64]

I'm good with 2 more seasons. There's only so much further you can drag this on.

I'm betting on spin-off series though.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

But it seems to me that 2 more seasons is not adequate to wrap this story up in any sort of satisfying way. It feels like it will have to be hurried through really, really big plot points in order to get through it. And perhaps worst of all, would be an unsatisfactory conclusion where we don't learn about all of the magics, religions, gods, dragons, special powers, etc. which seem to be more prominent now than they were in the first season or 2. That would be very unsatisfactory for me.

Well yes. The show will seemingly continue the shock point to shock point narrative it is doing so it can run through plot points. They've already kind of put all the magic, religion, gods, dragons, special powers stuff in the "this just happens now" category already - and may be like, if you want to know more, there are these books you can read (they've already shaved off a bit of magic stuff already - probably because they didn't want to resolve that it may lead to).

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

He actually wanted a total of 3 seasons for AFFC and ADWD combined, which is fairly reasonable to me. If the show treated Dorne well and introduced the Iron Islands (which it seems they'll do next season), they could have at least done 2 seasons of the 2 books.

I disagree. It would have been too boring. Too much talk, not enough stuff happening. Even if they did Dorne and the Iron Islands right.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I disagree. It would have been too boring. Too much talk, not enough stuff happening. Even if they did Dorne and the Iron Islands right.

There is actually a ton of scheming in AFFC and ADWD. People were just looking for action-action-action, a la ASOS and got disappointed. I'm re-reading AFFC and there is a bunch of great stuff - heck the Dorne and Iron Islands plots could have been a season to themselves.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

There is actually a ton of scheming in AFFC and ADWD. People were just looking for action-action-action, a la ASOS and got disappointed. I'm re-reading AFFC and there is a bunch of great stuff - heck the Dorne and Iron Islands plots could have been a season to themselves.

Well, I still think a lot of the Dorne stuff can happen, or if not as set out in the books, the political machinations of Doran Martell will start to come to light.

And it seems we're getting the Iron Islands stuff, just later than people thought.

Regardless, there weren't enough plot points in those two storylines, IMO, to sustain the show for two more seasons. Maybe one, not two.

And nod to the book (he's not in the show, so I think I am safe saying his name...), I would have loved to have seen Wyman Manderly make an appearance.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Well, I still think a lot of the Dorne stuff can happen, or if not as set out in the books, the political machinations of Doran Martell will start to come to light.

And it seems we're getting the Iron Islands stuff, just later than people thought.

Regardless, there weren't enough plot points in those two storylines, IMO, to sustain the show for two more seasons. Maybe one, not two.

And nod to the book (he's not in the show, so I think I am safe saying his name...), I would have loved to have seen Wyman Manderly make an appearance.

Yes, maybe one season can be done with both, if fully realized. However, all the stuff they left on the cutting room floor could have done 1.5, if not 2. And I'm not even talking about the long Tyrion boat ride, but the entire Faith Militant stuff could have been done better - from the first time we see them in the book (while Brienne is going north to find Sansa) until when they basically manipulate Cersei into giving them powers (as opposed to the other way around - Cersei comes across more like an idiot in the show, while in the books she has very little choice).

[Chief Rum]

I definitely agree on the Faith Militant stuff. They come off as even more of a force in the book than they do in the show.

[ISiddiqui]

In addition, they focus on how much the smallfolk have been fucked over by all these wars. They aren't just some random nutters who have bought into some charismatic guy - they are thousands of people who are turning to the Faith because their Lords have failed them in protection. And lands have been burned and destroyed. It's basically the smallfolks' way of revolution.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

In addition, they focus on how much the smallfolk have been fucked over by all these wars. They aren't just some random nutters who have bought into some charismatic guy - they are thousands of people who are turning to the Faith because their Lords have failed them in protection. And lands have been burned and destroyed. It's basically the smallfolks' way of revolution.

To be fair, they can still build to that. I think they have fairly well established that the Faith Militant are a new force in King's Landing at the very least, and I don't think it will take much next season to make it even more clear the impact they are having everywhere (or at least north of Dorne and south of the Neck).

[ISiddiqui]

I actually don't think they can build up to nearly as much you think they can build up to. They can't build up to the Dornish arc - that ship has sailed (literally). They can't build up to the Faith Militant being a product of profound smallfolk dissatisfaction because they've already given them another reason for existence.

The show is simply ignoring those parts and moving on... leading to action at the expense of depth. And they especially aren't going to be "building to that" if they are on a 2 more seasons timetable.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I actually don't think they can build up to nearly as much you think they can build up to. They can't build up to the Dornish arc - that ship has sailed (literally). They can't build up to the Faith Militant being a product of profound smallfolk dissatisfaction because they've already given them another reason for existence.

The show is simply ignoring those parts and moving on... leading to action at the expense of depth. And they especially aren't going to be "building to that" if they are on a 2 more seasons timetable.

But you see, that's the point. To their target audience, that stuff is boring, or repetitive or both (the small folk discontent).

It reads better in the book because there is so much room to do that stuff and to go into detail. Even that said, AFOC is by far the worst of the four books.

I understand the depth you would like to see it go, but I just don't think that's a realistic view for a TV show, especially one which has chosen to limit itself to 10 hours per year.

The Faith Militant didn't exist at all before this season and yet were a critical and present element to what occurred throughout. I have a very good idea the showrunners could quickly ramp up the level to which their impact is measured across the whole of Westeros.

As for Dorne, yes, the specific machinations of Doran in the book can't happen, but the concept of him as a political ingénue has not been removed, and they could devise new schemes and approaches next season which will show this off. And since I believe that Dorne will play a key roll in the end in Martin's books, I am fairly certain they will in the show as well.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

But you see, that's the point. To their target audience, that stuff is boring, or repetitive or both (the small folk discontent).

It reads better in the book because there is so much room to do that stuff and to go into detail. Even that said, AFOC is by far the worst of the four books.

I understand the depth you would like to see it go, but I just don't think that's a realistic view for a TV show, especially one which has chosen to limit itself to 10 hours per year.

The Faith Militant didn't exist at all before this season and yet were a critical and present element to what occurred throughout. I have a very good idea the showrunners could quickly ramp up the level to which their impact is measured across the whole of Westeros.

As for Dorne, yes, the specific machinations of Doran in the book can't happen, but the concept of him as a political ingénue has not been removed, and they could devise new schemes and approaches next season which will show this off. And since I believe that Dorne will play a key roll in the end in Martin's books, I am fairly certain they will in the show as well.

The show has decided their "target audience" is the tits and violence crowd. There is plenty of room for a build up of the Faith Militant. In fact the show in earlier season did do a lot of build up - of course they also put boobs in the background (hence "sexposition"), but still. Just as they have done with other dangling threads, they'll just ignore them and hope you won't ask questions. This isn't major stuff - the issue is that the showrunners decided in their mind that they are doing 7 seasons (even though HBO would be more than happy for 10) and decided to make book 3 into 2 seasons itself (or 1.75 seasons).

They've kind of screwed their own pooch and its become more of a wham, bam, here is a shock, here is a death type of show, rather than a flowing narrative. Basically they've started to True Blood it.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

The show has decided their "target audience" is the tits and violence crowd. There is plenty of room for a build up of the Faith Militant. In fact the show in earlier season did do a lot of build up - of course they also put boobs in the background (hence "sexposition"), but still. Just as they have done with other dangling threads, they'll just ignore them and hope you won't ask questions. This isn't major stuff - the issue is that the showrunners decided in their mind that they are doing 7 seasons (even though HBO would be more than happy for 10) and decided to make book 3 into 2 seasons itself (or 1.75 seasons).

They've kind of screwed their own pooch and its become more of a wham, bam, here is a shock, here is a death type of show, rather than a flowing narrative. Basically they've started to True Blood it.

I'm probably more in line with the masses then, because I love the way they have gone about it. I find myself agreeing with far more of their decisions than disagreeing.

[ISiddiqui]

And I think they've started to fuck up pretty royally. This was undoubtedly the worst season of the show, and mostly for things they decided to write up themselves, and as they depart from the source material more, I can't imagine they'll get any better.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

And I think they've started to fuck up pretty royally. This was undoubtedly the worst season of the show, and mostly for things they decided to write up themselves, and as they depart from the source material more, I can't imagine they'll get any better.

Possibly. I still enjoyed this season a lot, even if the middle of the season was kinda dreck.

Just thinking of the different storylines (and spoilering because of possible book references)...

Spoiler

Arya-- I am fine with how this has gone, even if her kill of Meryn Trant was more than a little cartoonish

Sansa-- Like everyone, I couldn't stand the rape scene. And Littlefinger more or less disappearing the last half of the season was disappointing. But the switch they made from the books? Much better. Linking Theon and Sansa made for a more true storyline, IMO.

Dorne-- We have talked enough about this. I think we can all agree they went off the reservation here and it was fairly ridiculous throughout. But I think the main point to introduce Dorne and Doran was done, and that we will see this end develop better going forward.

Stannis-- I agree with you that they removed a lot of what makes Stannis terrific in the book, but I also think they lacked the time to really make him as nuanced as he should be. The Shireen scene was shocking and terrible to see, but supposedly not necessarily different from what Martin has planned (he was the one who suggested that scene to the showrunners). I don't know where either Martin or the showrunners are going with this storyline (in case Brienne didn't kill him), but I find it possible that this itself will become a very interesting redemption story involving Stannis, Brienne, Davos and the Wall. How about this? If Theon and Sansa meet up with Stannis, Brienne and Podrick, how great would it be for Stannis to decide to redeem himself in attempting to return the Starks to their rightful place in the North? Toss in a little Davos side venture to get Rickon...

The Wall-- There was a lot left out of the Wall from the books, but I generally think it was an improvement. The decision alone to show Hardhome made this storyline a show success, and they hit the major plot points they needed to. They even got Melisandre back to the Wall in time.

King's Landing-- I know you disagree, but I think they hit the major points here and got the storyline along the same course as in the books.

Dany/Tyrion/Jorah/Varys-- They did a lot of piece shifting and role changing here, and I am very disappointed to see Ser Barristan gone. But they got Tyrion to Mereen and it was every bit as great as expected. Again, this storyline is more or less where we expected it to be, and actually even further along, since Tyrion (and Varys!) are ruling Mereen.

Iron Islands-- I was never a big fan of this storyline in the books, but now that it's clear it is happening, I'm actually excited to see this next season. I am glad to not see another storyline war with what we already had this season.

Bran-- This is a terrible storyline for TV. I was also glad to see it moved to next season, where the pieces are in place for Bran to be a more active participant.

Jaime-- Of course, he is more tied in with the Dorne storyline, but I think what he is going through remains a key point of the story. Myrcella's possible death (it seems assumed, but actually she was not shown dead on screen, you know) gives his character more dramatic heft and I am intrigued to see what happens with him in his return to King's Landing. He frankly went off the reservation abit in the books, and disappeared, and this show needs as much Jaime as it can get.

[MrBug708]

Seems like the people "over" the show tend to be the ones upset that Dorne hasnt been as fantastic as they imagined it to be.

[ISiddiqui]

My main issue is more about how they fucked up Stannis. Though the reason folks focus on the Dorne storyline is because it was an example of the showrunners making up a story out of whole cloth (everything else is related to something that happens in the book to some extent) and they really, really told a crappy story.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

The show has decided their "target audience" is the tits and violence crowd. There is plenty of room for a build up of the Faith Militant. In fact the show in earlier season did do a lot of build up - of course they also put boobs in the background (hence "sexposition"), but still. Just as they have done with other dangling threads, they'll just ignore them and hope you won't ask questions. This isn't major stuff - the issue is that the showrunners decided in their mind that they are doing 7 seasons (even though HBO would be more than happy for 10) and decided to make book 3 into 2 seasons itself (or 1.75 seasons).

They've kind of screwed their own pooch and its become more of a wham, bam, here is a shock, here is a death type of show, rather than a flowing narrative. Basically they've started to True Blood it.

The show remains great. They haven't started to turn it into True Blood. Give me a freakin' break. I watched all of True Blood. I know the difference. Trust me.

They are doing the best they can with what they are given. It's no surprise - AT ALL - that the weakest season of the show - this season - which was LARGELY pretty damn great (I'd say we got 7-7.5 good to great episodes and 2.5 - 3 middling ones), with some missteps along the way - covers the events that happen in the two weakest books of the series so far.

The show still has a strong narrative. The show still is very complex for TV. There is still a massive cast and it asks a lot of its viewers.

It's not as complex or nuanced as the books, because it simply can't be. Not enough time and we're talking to very different mediums.

Again, they've done a remarkable job with this TV show. As a fan of this series for the last 16 years, I couldn't have ever asked or expected better treatment of the source material in either TV or movie form. What we've been getting for the past five seasons is damn impressive and downright amazing.

I am not too worried. The show is still wildly popular. They will still be making more episodes. If they can keep doing what they've been doing for the better part of the last give years, I will be happy.

As for those that aren't? That's a TP not a MP!

[ISiddiqui]

My answer to that remains the same, but perhaps this author (Matt Yglesias - yes he does pop culture stuff too) can more succinctly state the issue while more agreeing with some of your background points about the show doing a good job, etc, etc:

Game of Thrones needs to refocus on the actual Game of Thrones - Vox

The more the story leans into spectacle rather than world-building, the more one is inclined to simply root for death and destruction. It's almost like we're watching a B-grade disaster film.

I hope that as Game of Thrones shifts into season six, we'll get a renewed focus on exploring what's really going on. But I fear that what bothers me just reflects the sensibilities of the showrunners, and that as the story diverges further from the books, we're going to see more and more catastrophes of the week and less and less of the actual game of thrones.

Point being that early on in the series, the TV show was far more about political scheming and that's what people liked. It wasn't about as being complex and nuanced as the books - it was about focusing on the politics. Even big fans like Yglesias are realizing that they've kind of abandoned the politics for the big spectacle (like they are addicted to the "Red Wedding" response).

[Logan]

Maybe I'm just off on this because, having never read the books, I'm not following some of the spoiler tagged comments...but I still see plenty of politics being displayed:

- Cersei arming the Faith Militant for her own personal reasons, and that coming back to bite her in the ass.
- Littlefinger's entire arc this season of getting Sansa to the Boltons and using that to leverage what he wants out of that entire North battle from Cersei, basically no matter who wins.
- Probably too much politics here with Dany and everyone trying to get her to focus on leading and accomplishing her goals, aided better by Tyrion at the end.
- And the biggest, Jon Snow knowing that he needed to cast aside how his own people felt about him and go after the Wildlings because he knew what they could offer and how important they would be. We saw what that got him.

And isn't it pretty clear that we are gearing up to the politics and the fighting over the throne not really mattering much? Because those crazy hundreds of thousands of MFers up north haven't exactly shared their thoughts on this yet and don't seem like they'll care.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

My answer to that remains the same, but perhaps this author (Matt Yglesias - yes he does pop culture stuff too) can more succinctly state the issue while more agreeing with some of your background points about the show doing a good job, etc, etc:

Point being that early on in the series, the TV show was far more about political scheming and that's what people liked. It wasn't about as being complex and nuanced as the books - it was about focusing on the politics. Even big fans like Yglesias are realizing that they've kind of abandoned the politics for the big spectacle (like they are addicted to the "Red Wedding" response).

Yeah, I think this is the most salient point he makes from that same article:

... that the source material for this season is much worse in terms of feeling overstuffed and tedious. Despite some misjudgments (Dorne), David Benioff and D. B. Weiss did an overall stellar job of streamlining a messy plot and getting us from point A to point B with a reasonably compelling rhythm.

I think a problem is that the books themselves - the source material - veer away from this. The most compelling political scheming involved the War Of The Five Kings. That's what the first three books focused on and the first four seasons of the show. That war is over. There really isn't much life. You had Stannis up north and... Everyone else pretty much dead.

Yes, there were political schemes going on with the Ironborn, but the problem with that whole plot line is that it's pretty dull, seems like a total sideshow with very little relevance to anything, and largely involves characters that range from boring to annoying to terrible, but not in an interesting way. I don't find any of the Ironborn all that compelling or interesting. I would love to care about them, but I just don't. It's hard to get emotionally invested in a bunch of characters that do little for you.

There is stuff going on in the Vale. I liked that more than the Greyjoy stuff, but, again it seemed like a sideshow and lacked characters that were interesting.

I really liked Doran Martell in the books and his machinations. I loved how everyone perceived him as weak, feeble and pretty much a bitch to everyone north of Dorne, while in reality he was just very patience, smart, while he sat in his Angry Chair fuming over what had happened. Maybe we get some of this/more of this next season. I certainly hope so.

The main conflict seems to have moved on from the politics of men to a massive, ancient conflict between The Others and R'hllor/dragons, or Ice vs. Fire. That's always how I saw the progression of the story.

I think one of the big issues with books 4 & 5, for me at least, was that there seemed to be a lack of really cool, interesting characters. The first three books were full of them. Even looking past the major characters - you had smaller characters like Syrio Florel, Jaqen H'gar, The Tickler, The Mountain, The Blackfish (oh how I miss him), Bronn, Dolorous Ed, Grenn, Pyp, Donal Noye, Yoren, Halfhand, Tormund Giantsbane, many others I'm sure I'm forgetting, who were interesting and compelling, both in good ways and bad.

There just haven't been the same types of characters in the last couple of books. There have been a few, but most of the new characters just don't do much for me. They are largely bland, forgettable, or a bit annoying.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Yeah, I think this is the most salient point he makes from that same article

I knew you'd pick that one quote from the article to ignore all else. The reason I linked Ygelsias is that he has your opinion on Books 4 and 5, but is scared to death that the showrunners are moving even further away from the politics in those books to "big scenes".

I think a problem is that the books themselves - the source material - veer away from this.

That's not entirely true, however, and it has been pointed out how the show has stripped away the political from various plot threads in Books 4 and 5 - from the origins of the Faith Militant to the entire Dornish plot to what is really behind the mutiny of the Night's Watch. Not to mention the stuff in the Iron Islands.

Yes, there were political schemes going on with the Ironborn, but the problem with that whole plot line is that it's pretty dull, seems like a total sideshow with very little relevance to anything, and largely involves characters that range from boring to annoying to terrible, but not in an interesting way. I don't find any of the Ironborn all that compelling or interesting. I would love to care about them, but I just don't. It's hard to get emotionally invested in a bunch of characters that do little for you.

I think one of the big issues with books 4 & 5, for me at least, was that there seemed to be a lack of really cool, interesting characters. The first three books were full of them. Even looking past the major characters - you had smaller characters like Syrio Florel, Jaqen H'gar, The Tickler, The Mountain, The Blackfish (oh how I miss him), Bronn, Dolorous Ed, Grenn, Pyp, Donal Noye, Yoren, Halfhand, Tormund Giantsbane, many others I'm sure I'm forgetting, who were interesting and compelling, both in good ways and bad.

There just haven't been the same types of characters in the last couple of books. There have been a few, but most of the new characters just don't do much for me. They are largely bland, forgettable, or a bit annoying.

I basically disagree with all of this. The Damphair, Euron, and Victarion from the Iron Islands are some of the most fascinating and interesting characters in the entire series, and obviously they have an important role, which may or may not be included in the show.

In Dorne, you had Arianne Martell, who may one of the best characters in the series, Arys Oakheart, a competent Doran Martell, Sand Snakes who aren't just incompetents, an Areo Hotah who does something, the Darkstar.

And yes, I love the Griffs, both of them - Connington is a bad ass, and even Young Griff though he is a Mary Sue. In addition, you get to learn quite a bit of the history of Westeros through that story - I wonder if the show will even bother with mentioning the Blackfyre Rebellion. I doubt it (though it'd be a great spin off show).

Meereen's characters were dull, but Dany's storyline has usually been a little bit dull (aside from one really, really cool stretch in Book 3/Season 4), so not surprising.

If anything Books 4 and 5 had tons of interesting new characters, it just had to go back to heavy exposition to develop them (a la, the beginning of Book 1) instead of throwing them right into the fray.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Well, I-Squiddi, I have to say I am jealous that you found all of that stuff so interesting and liked those characters! I wish I did and could enjoy it all a lot more than I did.

I like liking things. I try my best to give things the benefit of the doubt and get into them - especially things I like/love - but try as I might, I just couldn't do it for large portions of the last two books and for many of the characters presented.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

The show is simply ignoring those parts and moving on... leading to action at the expense of depth. And they especially aren't going to be "building to that" if they are on a 2 more seasons timetable.

This was the best quote to build off of... I'm still enjoying the show, but I really question why they felt the need to hurry things so much. Splitting Book 3 into 2 seasons made perfect sense, and I would've hated if they took time off or completely slowed things down to a crawl, but there was easily enough material for 2 seasons there (plus my pipe dream of a standalone miniseries based on the Blackfyre or Robert's Rebellion).

I also really like most of the streamlining of existing material the showrunners did, but am scared that the stuff they came up with on their own has zero subtlety and seems to focus too much on shock value, tits and violence.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

This was the best quote to build off of... I'm still enjoying the show, but I really question why they felt the need to hurry things so much. Splitting Book 3 into 2 seasons made perfect sense, and I would've hated if they took time off or completely slowed things down to a crawl, but there was easily enough material for 2 seasons there (plus my pipe dream of a standalone miniseries based on the Blackfyre or Robert's Rebellion).

I also really like most of the streamlining of existing material the showrunners did, but am scared that the stuff they came up with on their own has zero subtlety and seems to focus too much on shock value, tits and violence.

It's an interesting balance. For example, I heard a lot of people complaining about Arya's story this season because it wasn't connected to the overall plot and "nothing much happened."

Take The Walking Dead, for example. People complain all of the time that the show moves too slowly, they don't move things along quickly enough, etc. And that's a show where there really is NO over arcing plot. It's just basically a story of survival in that world.

I think the vast majority of viewers would go crazy and complain very loudly if things moved "too slowly." If the show spent hours in the Vale or with the Ironborn and all of that, man would be people complain. Not only would be people think the show is stalling or adding filler, but they'd also complain about too many new characters and the like.

It's a very difficult balancing act.

I don't love every decision the show has made (nor do I love every decision Martin has made). I do feel like they go over board with the sex/nudity at times, though the sexposition was definitely more of a season 1/2 issue. The violence - rape aside of which there has been more than enough of - doesn't bother me too much. It's a violent, bloody world. It is known.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

This was the best quote to build off of... I'm still enjoying the show, but I really question why they felt the need to hurry things so much. Splitting Book 3 into 2 seasons made perfect sense, and I would've hated if they took time off or completely slowed things down to a crawl, but there was easily enough material for 2 seasons there (plus my pipe dream of a standalone miniseries based on the Blackfyre or Robert's Rebellion).

I also really like most of the streamlining of existing material the showrunners did, but am scared that the stuff they came up with on their own has zero subtlety and seems to focus too much on shock value, tits and violence.

I would wet myself if HBO decided to do a 6-10 ep miniseries of the Blackfyre Rebellion. Also, its a way to keep the GoT viewership going after the series ends, right? HBO reallllly wants 10 seasons of GoT, so even if the showrunners want to stop at 7, no reason to hire another crew to do a miniseries, which would be quite a bit different in tone.

[Arles]

As someone who hasn't read the books, I don't think the issue with this season was a lack of political scheming, it was that we were (in essence) doing "homework" in Dorne, with Arya and Dany's quagmire in Mereen. I think, long term, it was needed for future payoffs. But, most of my complaints were with the slow-moving plots listed above. Looking back, this seems like a prerequisite from the books in order to move forward.

Honestly, I think the showrunners have done a pretty good job overall.
Most of the real compelling aspects of this season:

Spoiler

(Jon Snow and the battle with the walkers/wights, the whole Stannis-Shereen debacle, Littlefinger/Sansa/Theon and the Boltons, Jorah and Tyrion going through Valyria, Dany and Drogan in the fighting pits, Jon helping the wildlings being the reason for his stabbing)

were either not in the books or glossed over from what I've seen from readers. I think the worst thing Benioff and Weiss could have done was to be completely true to the books. I'm sure some hardcore readers would have enjoyed it, but it would have bored the masses to death. It appears this season was about getting people to different locations and setting up a big payoff down the line. The fact that the show did the required connections in a manner that was entertaining is a credit to the writers/showrunners.

[ISiddiqui]

Anyway, another good article calling for the show to get back to politics (and do better with character arcs as well as going to the spirit of the books and taking about the aftermath of carnage):

How To Fix What’s Wrong With Game Of Thrones

Some highlights:

This, in part, represents Martin’s obsession with the horrors of war. Lots of authors convey that war is hell, but fewer of them spend time showing that the aftermath of war can be even worse. After war ends, everyone is traumatized but there’s no longer the sense of glorious purpose to carry you forward, and there are always people who won’t admit the war is over. (E.g. Stannis.)

In some ways, Game of Thrones season five tries to keep up the format of A Storm of Swords, which proved so buzz-worthy in seasons three and four. What’s this year’s Red Wedding? This year’s Purple Wedding? Etc. etc. Hence the endless parade of character deaths, shocking turns, and terrible surprises.

It would have been a bolder, riskier choice to spend more time dwelling on the scars that previous events left behind — but it might have felt more emotionally satisfying, even if the story was still condensed to fit into one season.

But a lot of the major political developments this season happen off-screen, and the show doesn’t fully use its major advantage over the books — the ability to depict scenes that happen when the books’ POV characters aren’t present.

The bottom line is, Game of Thrones excelled at showing how the sausage was made, in previous seasons. There were scenes where we got to see more political machinations, and we saw the conflicts in a society where power is based on inherited titles, military power, and money.

My gut feeling is that at least some of the complaints about excessive violence and a reliance on “shocking” turns of events this season came from the fact that we weren’t seeing enough of the context to make those situations feel grounded.

I guess the unifying thing about all of these situations is that they’re about servicing plot development, rather than character development. The show needs Daenerys, Tyrion, Jaime and Sansa to get from A to B, in order to set up plot developments, and so they’re being pushed around the board. Some of this comes from Martin’s books, but a lot of it comes from the show’s own exigencies.

In general, I’m still incredibly excited for Game of Thrones season six — this show has the best cast on television, and when the characters are allowed to grow in ways that feel logical, it’s also one of the best political dramas ever made.

But as Thrones gets further and further away from whatever George R.R. Martin is doing in his next book, it needs to pay even more attention to adhering to the things that made Martin’s saga so great in the first place.

[bronconick]

My original (admittedly vague, I haven't read the books in 3-4 years and ADWD turned me off) idea was that ASOIAF was originally a political drama of the "game of thrones" during a war while "ice" (Others/white walkers) and "fire (dragons, red witches) are threatening the future of humanity.

Martin has been on that 2nd act for 15 years. The show needs to move on to the 3rd act, not join them with endless political debate until the Walkers show up in King's Landing. (Unless that's how this is supposed to end)

[stevew]

Ok, I get bored and think and my guess is that Theon and Sansa used to do Winterfell drift jumps as children since they essentially were raised as brother and sister. I also think Brienne left Stannis alive to do her duty, which is to protect Sansa. Maybe Stannis recovers to join the nights watch.

[stevew]

-or- does Stannis ride south and align himself with the faith of the 7, as the only legitimate heir to the throne(and get involved in the Zombie Mountain thing)

[Ryno]

Originally Posted by bronconick

The show needs to move on to the 3rd act, not join them with endless political debate until the Walkers show up in King's Landing. (Unless that's how this is supposed to end)

I wouldn't hold your breath. They just killed off the only two leaders who had any concern about the White Walkers. The idiot Night's Watch let in a whole bunch of Wildings, and then killed the only person keeping the Crows from being slaughtered.

Meanwhile, there are a very limited amount of Valyrian steel swords. You have the one dragon who is either very injured or going through petulant teenager years. The other two haven't flown for how long?

It seems like the only defense is to hope that the wall holds and the sea doesn't freeze. Given that, I expect we won't see the Others again until late in the season. Well, that or everyone where Winter has touched is going to die. Maybe that's why Dorne has been showcased. If they have to retreat out of the capital, that seems as good a place as any to relocate.

[claphamsa]

just my 2C here...i love the show, and tried and tried but found the books to be horribly written garbage. so whatever they are doing is working for me..... also the hardhome scene was well worth it.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by bronconick

Martin has been on that 2nd act for 15 years. The show needs to move on to the 3rd act, not join them with endless political debate until the Walkers show up in King's Landing. (Unless that's how this is supposed to end)

It's a 7 book series. If there is 3 acts, arguably the last two books are them. The show jumped ahead to the 3rd act before the 2nd act was really done in that narrative.

Secondly, I do think that your final statement is part of the point - the elites are playing their Game of Thrones while screwing over the common people and ignoring the big threats to the realm (which btw is a political issue in and of itself).

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

the elites are playing their Game of Thrones while screwing over the common people and ignoring the big threats to the realm (which btw is a political issue in and of itself).

I thought this was the main point of the entire story.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Secondly, I do think that your final statement is part of the point - the elites are playing their Game of Thrones while screwing over the common people and ignoring the big threats to the realm (which btw is a political issue in and of itself).

And I still don't understand why you think this hasn't been addressed on the show. It was the central mission of the most important character of the season, and he paid for it with his "life".

[Coffee Warlord]

Sources have told io9 that Kit Harington — whose character Jon Snow seemingly perished in the recent season finale — has been seen in Belfast with several other members of the cast. Belfast, of course, is home to much of the show’s filming for scenes set in the North and at The Wall. Production is already preparing to start on Game of Thrones’ sixth season, so our source speculates that Harington could be making appearances as Snow — either flashbacks, or scenes showing that he survived the seemingly fatal mutiny of the Night’s Watch.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Logan

And I still don't understand why you think this hasn't been addressed on the show. It was the central mission of the most important character of the season, and he paid for it with his "life".

Because it hasn't. The show has not shown the first part of my statement - apparently by focusing only on the later, you are ignoring it as well. It hasn't shown the common people having to suffer while the elites are playing their game. It doesn't show the devastation of the Riverlands, which Martin shows in every single chapter when someone goes through them. It doesn't show the Kingdom wide turn to militant faith groups. It doesn't even show conversations where the reason Stannis is willing to sacrifice people to the flames is because of the hundreds of boys and girls in the realm who will benefit from an end to the war, and if it requires the death of one boy, it may be worth it.

Saying that, the politics in Books 4 & 5 are still kind of fun - I'm re-reading Feast for Crows and the chapter where Kevan turns down being Hand of the King he gets in as many good one liners as any Tyrion has said (it's really fun), while also indicating how he knows how to run the realm well while Cersei does not (and because its the first Cersei POV chapter, you get to see how paranoid she actually is).

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Because it hasn't. The show has not shown the first part of my statement - apparently by focusing only on the later, you are ignoring it as well. It hasn't shown the common people having to suffer while the elites are playing their game. It doesn't show the devastation of the Riverlands, which Martin shows in every single chapter when someone goes through them. It doesn't show the Kingdom wide turn to militant faith groups. It doesn't even show conversations where the reason Stannis is willing to sacrifice people to the flames is because of the hundreds of boys and girls in the realm who will benefit from an end to the war, and if it requires the death of one boy, it may be worth it.

Saying that, the politics in Books 4 & 5 are still kind of fun - I'm re-reading Feast for Crows and the chapter where Kevan turns down being Hand of the King he gets in as many good one liners as any Tyrion has said (it's really fun), while also indicating how he knows how to run the realm well while Cersei does not (and because its the first Cersei POV chapter, you get to see how paranoid she actually is).

ISiddiqui, you're way more into the books than I am, so I think that's the root of this next statement for me. I just think you want something different from the show than some others here do.

We're not happy with all show changes from the book, but I get the sense that more people than not are pretty happy with the adaptation. That definitely describes me. I don't think I am misrepresenting the general sentiment either.

I believe you're looking for a show which follows more closely to the books, in the end, and for various reasons, that's just not happening. I view the two forms this story is coming in as entirely separate tellings of a similar story.

I enjoy the detail and political machinations of the books and will continue to do so when Martin finishes them. But I love the visualization and, yes, "shock" moments that the showrunners put in place, even if you can begin to question their approach to those in general. I think the cast is great, the effects and sets are very well done, the dialogue is usually top notch. While they have moved away from the political intrigue of the first few seasons, they continue to show a plotted show moving forward, with plenty of action happening, and consequences as a result of it. I'm still very excited to see how this goes, and I view it as an opportunity to enjoy a similar story in two very different ways.

You have your right to your perspective, but I think that if you don't come to some understanding with where the show is going, you may not get nearly as much enjoyment out of it as you could. But that's your choice of course.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

We're not happy with all show changes from the book, but I get the sense that more people than not are pretty happy with the adaptation. That definitely describes me. I don't think I am misrepresenting the general sentiment either.

I believe you're looking for a show which follows more closely to the books, in the end, and for various reasons, that's just not happening. I view the two forms this story is coming in as entirely separate tellings of a similar story.

Even regardless of this, a lot of people who share the view that the adaptation is a good one are not altogether happy with what the showrunners have done with this past season and are frightened for what it may lead to - both the Vox and i09 articles are similar in that regard. The issue is not necessarily books vs. show for those authors, but that the showrunners are taking the wrong sort of lessons from the reaction to the Red Wedding and are seemingly moving into a direction where that sort of buzz is what they are more looking for rather than telling something more narratively consistent and satisfying.

I mean, I may be close to moving into "hatewatch" territory with the show, but those who I'm linking to are definitely not. And their points are good ones, which seem to be poo-poohed as "oh, you just want the books slavishly adapted" (which I really don't - I really enjoyed the adaption choices of Seasons 1-3, for the most part, for instance).

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Even regardless of this, a lot of people who share the view that the adaptation is a good one are not altogether happy with what the showrunners have done with this past season and are frightened for what it may lead to - both the Vox and i09 articles are similar in that regard. The issue is not necessarily books vs. show for those authors, but that the showrunners are taking the wrong sort of lessons from the reaction to the Red Wedding and are seemingly moving into a direction where that sort of buzz is what they are more looking for rather than telling something more narratively consistent and satisfying.

I mean, I may be close to moving into "hatewatch" territory with the show, but those who I'm linking to are definitely not. And their points are good ones, which seem to be poo-poohed as "oh, you just want the books slavishly adapted" (which I really don't - I really enjoyed the adaption choices of Seasons 1-3, for the most part, for instance).

I agree with the viewpoint that the showrunners are moving away from the books and emphasizing shock moments, and like others, I have my issues with it. But still my overall take is one of positivity. I still enjoy the show and find it entertaining. I have no idea why anyone would even consider "hatewatching" a show.

[ISiddiqui]

Welcome to the internet?

Heck, that was the only reason people watched glee for the last... well at least 3 seasons .

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Welcome to the internet?

Heck, that was the only reason people watched glee for the last... well at least 3 seasons .

Just saying, there are better things to do with one's life than to hatewatch a show.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Just saying, there are better things to do with one's life than to hatewatch a show.

Heck, there are better things to do than get into arguments on a message board... yet we do it everyday anyway .

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Heck, there are better things to do than get into arguments on a message board... yet we do it everyday anyway .

Lot less investment in that.

[ISiddiqui]

Is there?

(edit: I mean we're comparing 10 hours a year to at least that much each month, if not every two weeks)

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Is there?

(edit: I mean we're comparing 10 hours a year to at least that much each month, if not every two weeks)

I don't know about you, but I definitely don't spend 10 hours per year arguing on the Internet.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Even regardless of this, a lot of people who share the view that the adaptation is a good one are not altogether happy with what the showrunners have done with this past season and are frightened for what it may lead to - both the Vox and i09 articles are similar in that regard. The issue is not necessarily books vs. show for those authors, but that the showrunners are taking the wrong sort of lessons from the reaction to the Red Wedding and are seemingly moving into a direction where that sort of buzz is what they are more looking for rather than telling something more narratively consistent and satisfying.

I mean, I may be close to moving into "hatewatch" territory with the show, but those who I'm linking to are definitely not. And their points are good ones, which seem to be poo-poohed as "oh, you just want the books slavishly adapted" (which I really don't - I really enjoyed the adaption choices of Seasons 1-3, for the most part, for instance).

I read both of those articles. They raise some fair points, but what a lot of people seem to be missing here is that the source material for this season - books 4 and 5 - have A LOT more issues in terms of narrative than this show. There could be very similar pieces written about "how to fix" the books than the show.

To put it succinctly:

The difference in quality between books 1-3 and books 4-5 >>>>>>>>>>>>> the difference in quality between seasons 1-4 and season 5.

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I have no idea why anyone would even consider "hatewatching" a show.

A thousand times this. I know it's popular on the internets to say you're hatewatching something - for reasons that elude me - but I don't get this at all.

If I hate something, I tend to take as many steps as I can to avoid it. For example, I fucking hate eggplant, so I don't eat anything eggplant in it. I certainly don't "hateeat" shit with eggplant in it just because... I want to eat something that I hate and is gross to me so then I can keep telling everyone how much I hate eggplant and how gross it is? I guess that's why people do this? I guess?

I know some people say they continue to watch shows they hate because they feel like they've already invested so much time in a show that they want to see what happens. Given the ubiquity of summaries on the internet, I don't quite follow that either. It especially would seem odd here, given that if you really want to know what happens just read the books.