The Pence Presidency-2016

[stevew]

(reserved)

[panerd]

Starting last year? Though I am sometimes mistaken as a Trump supporter I am far from one of his fans. However I like to also see the reality of the situation. You will spend at least the next four years (Hopefully only 4) if not 8 hoping for an impeachment/resignation that never happens. Since you seem to be on team D look at how dumb the people on team R looked from 2009-2016 waiting for the "scandalous" Obama impeachment/resignation.

And no it is not different this time. You are just on the other side.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by panerd

Starting last year? Though I am sometimes mistaken as a Trump supporter I am far from one of his fans. However I like to also see the reality of the situation. You will spend at least the next four years (Hopefully only 4) if not 8 hoping for an impeachment/resignation that never happens. Since you seem to be on team D look at how dumb the people on team R looked from 2009-2016 waiting for the "scandalous" Obama impeachment/resignation.

And no it is not different this time. You are just on the other side.

You're right in some regards that the over reaction has been the same, however there's no way a black man gets away with the same behavior and language that Trump gets away with. And if he did, and he got this far, with trashing Fox news publicly as fake, and the appearance of being totally compromised by the the Russians, you'd damn near have calls for lynch mobs to get him out of office, let alone resignation.

[Young Drachma]

lol at team d

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

You're right in some regards that the over reaction has been the same, however there's no way a black man gets away with the same behavior and language that Trump gets away with. And if he did, and he got this far, with trashing Fox news publicly as fake, and the appearance of being totally compromised by the the Russians, you'd damn near have calls for lynch mobs to get him out of office, let alone resignation.

There is no doubt in my mind Obama would be in serious trouble had he pulled even half of what Trump has at this point and I'm not part of team anything.

This Russia stuff fascinates me to no end. In 2012 Romney called Russia our biggest geopolitical foe. He warned multiple times to not get too cozy with the Russians.

The dems roasted him. I mean, they openly mocked him. Obama, Biden, Hillary, Kerry and MSNBC made fun of the guy. Quotes like "1980's are calling to have their foreign policy back" "he just wants to do what Reagan did" "He must have his view of Russia from watching Rocky IV" It was a train wreck so bad that very few Republicans stepped up to defend the comments.

Oops. Not only were these guys wrong, they were spectacularly wrong. Yet I've seen very few people analyzing this situation bringing that up. Team D vs. Team R. My team does no wrong, your does no right.

This would actually be quite comical if it wasn't so frightening.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by panerd

Starting last year? Though I am sometimes mistaken as a Trump supporter I am far from one of his fans. However I like to also see the reality of the situation. You will spend at least the next four years (Hopefully only 4) if not 8 hoping for an impeachment/resignation that never happens. Since you seem to be on team D look at how dumb the people on team R looked from 2009-2016 waiting for the "scandalous" Obama impeachment/resignation.

And no it is not different this time. You are just on the other side.

You think Obama had this same level of scandal one month into his Presidency?

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

You think Obama had this same level of scandal one month into his Presidency?

No, not even close. Anyone who says he did is blinded by the right in a big way.

I think Obama is a good guy who tried to do right by the country. I say that even though I have deep, deep issues with some of the things he did and the methods he used to do them.

But comparing Obama to Trump in terms of scandal? No way. Just no way.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

You think Obama had this same level of scandal one month into his Presidency?

I guess I don't classify most of this as scandal. Take for example DeVos... as a teacher I hope she doesn't accomplish any of her agenda but just because she has a far right view on a topic that I have a far left view on doesn't make it scandalous. I think most of the news organizations are left leaning so they tend to play everything that is going on as a major crisis/scandal but I would say his only scandal thus far has been the Flynn thing and even then I think the media hype is a bit bigger than the actual story. (My opinion clearly and I admit I could be wrong but I just can't get worked up over Trump playing golf, or Trump appointing people with far right viewpoints, etc)

[panerd]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

You're right in some regards that the over reaction has been the same, however there's no way a black man gets away with the same behavior and language that Trump gets away with. And if he did, and he got this far, with trashing Fox news publicly as fake, and the appearance of being totally compromised by the the Russians, you'd damn near have calls for lynch mobs to get him out of office, let alone resignation.

Obama was a media darling and a hero of Western Europe based on personality and not policy. He basically continued the war mongering of the United States and won a Nobel Peace Prize for it. So yes I think Obama got a lot of free passes.

Again as stated earlier I am appalled this country elected Trump and I would take Obama seven days of the week over Trump but let's not act like the attacks on Obama were coming from anywhere but Fox News and several smaller conservative media outlets back in 2009.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by panerd

Take for example DeVos... as a teacher I hope she doesn't accomplish any of her agenda but just because she has a far right view on a topic that I have a far left view on doesn't make it scandalous.

Uh... the scandal there was that she obviously had no idea about the basics of public education. There are more than a few questions that the Senate asked her, where she completely whiffed. That isn't 'news organizations' - that's on the public record.

And the Russia thing is a massive concern and major issue, but let's not pretend that that was it. I mean just last week, Trump flippantly said he'd be fine with a one state solution between Israel/Palestine!! I mean WTF?

[panerd]

Originally Posted by TroyF

There is no doubt in my mind Obama would be in serious trouble had he pulled even half of what Trump has at this point and I'm not part of team anything.

This Russia stuff fascinates me to no end. In 2012 Romney called Russia our biggest geopolitical foe. He warned multiple times to not get too cozy with the Russians.

The dems roasted him. I mean, they openly mocked him. Obama, Biden, Hillary, Kerry and MSNBC made fun of the guy. Quotes like "1980's are calling to have their foreign policy back" "he just wants to do what Reagan did" "He must have his view of Russia from watching Rocky IV" It was a train wreck so bad that very few Republicans stepped up to defend the comments.

Oops. Not only were these guys wrong, they were spectacularly wrong. Yet I've seen very few people analyzing this situation bringing that up. Team D vs. Team R. My team does no wrong, your does no right.

This would actually be quite comical if it wasn't so frightening.

It really is unbelievable what people can allow the media/politicians to work them up about in this era of advanced technology where everything is on the record and can be easily searched with a computer and internet connection. I mean we have Obama saying "ISIS is the JV team", "Bush raising the debt ceiling is a failure of leadership" We have Trump in the past saying the media's job is to hold the president in check and far too many other ridiculous quotes to even list. Yet people are still going to go out and argue left vs right, in power vs not in power. It's really astounding.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

And the Russia thing is a massive concern and major issue, but let's not pretend that that was it. I mean just last week, Trump flippantly said he'd be fine with a one state solution between Israel/Palestine!! I mean WTF?

I guess I just look at Russia and what they do and think "What would I do if I were a Russian?" I mean these wars and countries at war within hundreds of miles of their border. This would be like Russia meddling in a bunch of wars in Central America, Mexico, and Canada. Not really anything to do with Trump but I don't find any of Russia's foreign policy particularly perplexing and/or evil. It actually seems quite logical to me.

[larrymcg421]

It's amazing the amount of stuff people claim didn't get covered by the biased media that I only know about because I saw it being covered by the biased media.

[HomerSimpson98]

Stop blaming the fucking news media. So tired of that shit.

[HomerSimpson98]

Originally Posted by panerd

Though I am sometimes mistaken as a Trump supporter I am far from one of his fans.

And damn, you sure do say this alot - and then defend like Gary Payton used to.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by panerd

Obama was a media darling and a hero of Western Europe based on personality and not policy. He basically continued the war mongering of the United States and won a Nobel Peace Prize for it. So yes I think Obama got a lot of free passes.

Again as stated earlier I am appalled this country elected Trump and I would take Obama seven days of the week over Trump but let's not act like the attacks on Obama were coming from anywhere but Fox News and several smaller conservative media outlets back in 2009.

This is spot on. Well stated.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by panerd

I guess I don't classify most of this as scandal. Take for example DeVos... as a teacher I hope she doesn't accomplish any of her agenda but just because she has a far right view on a topic that I have a far left view on doesn't make it scandalous.

Nominating someone with literally no background in a field, and a history of actively working against that field, to be in charge of that field is scandalous.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Uh... the scandal there was that she obviously had no idea about the basics of public education. There are more than a few questions that the Senate asked her, where she completely whiffed. That isn't 'news organizations' - that's on the public record.

She knows what she needs to know to largely dismantle a department that's past its usefulness.

Trump flippantly said he'd be fine with a one state solution between Israel/Palestine!!

I missed that, but if it means what I think I means (lacking context, having missed it) then I'm LOL'ing over here so as flippant remarks go it was a good one.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by HomerSimpson98

And damn, you sure do say this alot - and then defend like Gary Payton used to.

Shouldn't be hard to find a paper trial on here of me backing Ron Paul and then Gary Johnson in both presidential elections. Also about 100+ posts of me saying Hillary Clinton is a much preferable candidate to me since Gary Johnson will not win the election. I think TroyF or somebody said in another thread more eloquently what I will try and say here that I don't really want somebody coming back at me with a Democrat talking point when I am just poking holes in their line of thinking and not offering the Republican's point of view as an alternative so I say I am not a Trump supporter to try and avoid that.

EDIT: Probably not needed as much on here since panerd is sort of known as the annoying Libertarian around here but I guess I am so used to disclaiming my thoughts on other internet sites that I do it here.

[larrymcg421]

Can I make fun of this or is it exactly like an Obama speech I didn't criticize 8 years ago?

[albionmoonlight]

Trump will stop being president when/if he loses the support of both his base and congressional Republicans. The two events are correlated, of course.

I have seen no indication that he is losing support from either group.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

It's amazing the amount of stuff people claim didn't get covered by the biased media that I only know about because I saw it being covered by the biased media.

It's our fault. It really is. How many people challenge themselves to look at the other side of a position and truly think about it? The media is biased. They are also horrible. During the election season Politifact ran something on how often each of the cable news medias pundits and paid panelists told the truth.

The leader at "mostly true" or "true" facts? CNN at 57%. MSNBC came in at 33%, Fox News 21%. Before Republicans jump in here, I understand Politifact has also been accused of being biased in their fact checking, but lets just say they are 100% true.

Think about how horrible those numbers are for just a second. People who form their opinions from watching Fox or MSNBC are going to be right between 20% and 33% of the time. That is truly, truly frightening. Nothing can be done. It's up to us to try to change it. Just like it's up to us to demand politicians that don't have so many skeletons in their closet it makes them easy targets for election swings.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Can I make fun of this or is it exactly like an Obama speech I didn't criticize 8 years ago?

You can bash whoever and whatever you want.

Trump is EASY to bash and I think he's a complete jack ass. I think he's horrible for this country.

But if you don't criticize the other side of the aisle and try to justify it when they make mistakes or lie, I won't take you seriously. Now, me taking you seriously means NOTHING. I highly doubt you lose a second of sleep wondering if TroyF agrees with your position on immigration. If you do, I feel incredibly sorry for you.

FWIW, I don't dislike you. I disagree with some of the points you make. I'd damned well like to see you bash your own party when they make obvious mistakes. I doubt we'd be on the same side on some major issues. (though you might be surprised at some of the things we would agree on) I've yet to see you call me a racist because I've disagreed with one of your points. I've yet to see you resort to "you are an idiot" type jack assism either.

The speech above is horrible by the way. Horrible on just about every level. it wasn't presented well, the points suck and show a complete lack of understanding of just about anything and some of the comments are insulting to me. "we saw her uncles wonderful exhibit and he certainly deserves that" (you didn't know that before today? Ugh.)

It's pretty much what I expect out of this president.

[tarcone]

Scandalous is such a subjective term. I think what the Ds think is scandalous is what the people who voted for Trump want.
The people out protesting are just fueling the Trump supporters fire. At this rate, there is no way Trump loses in 2020.

[Butter]

So this spread into 2 threads. Sweet.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by tarcone

I think what the Ds think is scandalous is what the people who voted for Trump want.

Well, at least a lukewarm variation of it.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by tarcone

At this rate, there is no way Trump loses in 2020.

Except the fact that they were the minority this time around and he continually chips away at his base with some of his policy.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Butter

So this spread into 2 threads. Sweet.

Yeah it is basically just the Trump presidency thread now. However I not sure bumping a 5 day old thread off the front page is really going to bug anyone either.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by TroyF

You can bash whoever and whatever you want.

Trump is EASY to bash and I think he's a complete jack ass. I think he's horrible for this country.

But if you don't criticize the other side of the aisle and try to justify it when they make mistakes or lie, I won't take you seriously. Now, me taking you seriously means NOTHING. I highly doubt you lose a second of sleep wondering if TroyF agrees with your position on immigration. If you do, I feel incredibly sorry for you.

FWIW, I don't dislike you. I disagree with some of the points you make. I'd damned well like to see you bash your own party when they make obvious mistakes. I doubt we'd be on the same side on some major issues. (though you might be surprised at some of the things we would agree on) I've yet to see you call me a racist because I've disagreed with one of your points. I've yet to see you resort to "you are an idiot" type jack assism either.

I get what you're saying. If I preached against Republicans lying, I'd be a major hypocrite because I've taken a fairly cynical "politicians have to lie" position and have defended Clinton and Obama for that. If I criticize a Republican for doing something that I think is okay for a Democrat to do, then that would be hypocritical. And if I've done that, then call me out for it. But here's what bugs me:

1) False equivalence between every right/left situation (such as panerd's initial response to this thread).

2) Being held responsible for everything a Dem has done. Just because a Dem argued the opposite of something I argue today doesn't make me a hypocrite. Hold me accountable for what I say.

3) Fake facts to create a middle that doesn't exist. For example, you argued that Obama wanted refugees without vetting and that was the source of his standoff with Republican Governors. This allows you to claim a middle with a refugees with vetting position, except it's not true at all.

I actually am well aware that we agree on many policy positions. (see #3 where we totally agree, but you seem to disagree that we agree). I think our source of disagreement is more on methods, in which I'm now a win-at-all-costs person, because I no longer thing the "morally pure" approach is a realistic way to be successful in politics.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I get what you're saying. If I preached against Republicans lying, I'd be a major hypocrite because I've taken a fairly cynical "politicians have to lie" position and have defended Clinton and Obama for that. If I criticize a Republican for doing something that I think is okay for a Democrat to do, then that would be hypocritical. And if I've done that, then call me out for it. But here's what bugs me:

1) False equivalence between every right/left situation (such as panerd's initial response to this thread).

2) Being held responsible for everything a Dem has done. Just because a Dem argued the opposite of something I argue today doesn't make me a hypocrite. Hold me accountable for what I say.

3) Fake facts to create a middle that doesn't exist. For example, you argued that Obama wanted refugees without vetting and that was the source of his standoff with Republican Governors. This allows you to claim a middle with a refugees with vetting position, except it's not true at all.

I actually am well aware that we agree on many policy positions. (see #3 where we totally agree, but you seem to disagree that we agree). I think our source of disagreement is more on methods, in which I'm now a win-at-all-costs person, because I no longer thing the "morally pure" approach is a realistic way to be successful in politics.

1 - When people are at each others throats with a win at all cost mentality (see your #3), this is the way things get debated. Win at all costs means you paint your opponent to be a jack ass. You say they are racist. You say that if the roles were reversed you'd be crucified or your party would win. It's the very definition of the approach "win at all costs"

2 - See #1. Why should you be any different than anyone else? I don't even have a party and if I say that Hillary did something wrong, I am a piece of garbage who loves the other side. Do to a party and say you think Edward Snowden is a traitor and deserves to spend the rest of his life in prison. I give it 2 minutes before someone calls you a Trump lover. This IS a winner take all mentality now and winning means your side, at all costs. Issues? LOL.

3 - I don't think enough vetting was taking place. I've read the reports on what was happening and I don't think it was nearly enough. I just don't. I still don't think that's the case. Now we aren't vetting, we are just being douche bags. I think Obama handled immigration miserably his entire time in office and is a HUGE reason we have the guy in office we have today.

You say your for win at all costs. I'm not. For starters, there isn't a party that holds a super majority of my beliefs to win at all costs. While I think some Republican policies are damaging and hurtful to this country, I feel the same thing exists on the other side.

I guess that's what makes my position easy for me to operate under, because I don't think one side is right. In truth, I think both sides are simply horrible right now. I don't use the term loosely either. We could go all day on the Republican side, especially with Trump. Gay marriage, birth control, and the build the wall policies are beyond frightening and we haven't even started on the economic policies they want.

But the democrats? The people who want to deem anything against them as hate speech while they scream that I'm a racist because I have issues with immigration control? The group who wants to ban any speaker who disagrees with them and then calls everyone else fascists? (need to look up the definition of that word boys and girls) And hell, I haven't even started on their economic policies which seem to evolve around gigantic social programs that we can't afford to pay for.

The big, big problem with the win at all cost mentality is that you won't always win. Even after Trump, a republican you don't like is going to get in office again someday. He gets to do what your side does when he/she is in power. Your position is correct by the way. I know it is. You vs Jon, Left vs Right, My team vs Your Team. There isn't a lot of room left for me. it's why I spend less and less time in political threads and less and less time reading/talking about politics.

[Atocep]

I still don't know how much more we can do to vet. We have the most extreme vetting of any 1st world country. Talk to people that have either gone through it themselves or have family members go through it. Contrary to what some believe it is difficult to get into the country.

If we want to have foreign policy that's going to piss off certain groups of people (unavoidable) then we either accept the fact that bad guys get in every now and then or we just keep everyone out. Trying to achieve complete safety in a free society is an unachievable goal.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Atocep

we just keep everyone out.

Which is why the halting & insufficient half-measures taken to this point are really not encouraging to some supporters either.

[larrymcg421]

I think you're missing what I'm saying about win at all costs. I'm talking about politicians using negative campaigning, superPacs, and lies to win elections. In a vacuum, I'm against all of those things. In reality, it would've done no good for gay people if Obama come out in favor of gay marriage in 2008 and loses the election to McCain (who is STILL against marriage equality and the DADT repeal).

1- That has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. The whole digression in this thread started because panerd tried to claim that Trump's first month is a normal first month for a President, so we're just as crazy as what Obama did. You agreed that was ridiculous.

2- Again, I've done none of that to you and I haven't seen anyone on this forum do that to you. If they have, bring it up with them when it happens.

3- That is a far cry from what you said earlier:

As far as the process goes, a lot of people are simply for bringing them in without much, if any vetting. It was a key argument in a lot of governors minds when the issue first came up. Obama gave them a middle finger and said take em. It's the entire reason this ever became an issue in the first place.

That is not even close to an accurate description of the situation. 18-24 months vetting isn't enough? Then what is? I've yet to see a single person who wants "extreme vetting" say how much vetting is enough, or outline the extra steps they think should be taken.

But the democrats? The people who want to deem anything against them as hate speech while they scream that I'm a racist because I have issues with immigration control? The group who wants to ban any speaker who disagrees with them and then calls everyone else fascists? (need to look up the definition of that word boys and girls) And hell, I haven't even started on their economic policies which seem to evolve around gigantic social programs that we can't afford to pay for.

And see this paragraph here. Filled with blanket assumption and wild distortions. That's exactly what I'm talking about. That doesn't describe me at all (except for the part about social programs).

[Chief Rum]

Do we really need a second fucking thread for this bullshit partisan arguing? Go back to the Trump thread and do this crap.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Do we really need a second fucking thread for this bullshit partisan arguing? Go back to the Trump thread and do this crap.

Thank you

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by TroyF

3 - I don't think enough vetting was taking place. I've read the reports on what was happening and I don't think it was nearly enough. I just don't. I still don't think that's the case. Now we aren't vetting, we are just being douche bags. I think Obama handled immigration miserably his entire time in office and is a HUGE reason we have the guy in office we have today.

Out of interest what reports have you read and what do you believe is inadequate about them?- as an immigrant who has been through such things, coming from a relatively safe country in England I was thoroughly investigated and the entire process took around a year, I'd imagine people from less trusted countries are even more thoroughly vetted (I've heard times involved range from 18-24 months minimum for the 'banned' countries).

What do you think is going to change to improve this side of things exactly?

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Do we really need a second fucking thread for this bullshit partisan arguing? Go back to the Trump thread and do this crap.

You seem really upset. Have you not been around FOFC for 15 years? And particularly the last 5 or so? We can make any thread partisan. Go team go!