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Old 05-29-2023, 05:11 PM   #451
RainMaker
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Her dad doesn't go to church and previously hated churches as an organization, but now supports the church and considers him self religious. I could go on and on with their shit in viewpoints just since 2016.

This feels like a common thing when people become bigots. They don't care about religion and clearly don't live by the Bible, but it's their way of excusing their bigotry.
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Old 05-29-2023, 06:13 PM   #452
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This feels like a common thing when people become bigots. They don't care about religion and clearly don't live by the Bible, but it's their way of excusing their bigotry.

And somehow the part where Jesus is a bigot continues to evade me, apparently they have a deeper understanding than me....
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Old 05-29-2023, 07:54 PM   #453
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Trump divided the U.S. Biden poured fuel on the fire and now it will rage out of control in 2024.

What could Biden have done differently? How has he contributed to this divide?

He actually governs for everyone. Infrastructure helps red states. CHIPS act creates jobs for both parties. When Florida got pounded with a hurricane he didn't hold them hostage for aid because they voted Trump.

The right will NEVER give him a win because they have been conditioned the left are the enemy. Just look at all the rhetoric that comes from them about civil war, MTG talking about seceding, etc...

Honesty, how has Biden been divisive at all other than talking about domestic terrorists which he is 100% right about.
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Old 05-29-2023, 08:21 PM   #454
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I can't believe how blind some people are to the issues this administration have created in the last 2 or 3 years. But that is politics. Total lack of empathy for the view of the other team.

Totally agree with the points made about gay rights and guns. But those issues were a problem for the U.S. many years ago. But right now you have a stack of cultural and economic issues you didn't back then.

I find the mention of disinformation chucklesome. That's on this government. Weaponising the dollar leading to its current predicament. Trump divided the U.S. Biden poured fuel on the fire and now it will rage out of control in 2024.

LGTBQ rights actually hadn't been much of an issue until 2016. Everything had been moving in the right direction there until 2016. They weren't ideal, but trending better than at any point in our nation's history.

Racial tensions had also been headed in the right direction until a guy living here in Gig Harbor decided to make up the term CRT and create a culture war that's spread to nearly all aspects of our life under the guise of "woke".

Guns have also become more of an issue since 2016 because of the weaponization of the Supreme Court and laws that encourage people to go around shooting one another.

Really, what a lot of our problems come down to is hate. Hate crime has been steadily on the rise, again, since 2016. But tell me how that's Biden's fault.
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Old 05-29-2023, 09:15 PM   #455
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References to political empathy sound laughably disingenuous when talking about DeSantis, whose entire campaign is literally built around "destroying leftism"
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Old 05-29-2023, 09:24 PM   #456
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References to political empathy sound laughably disingenuous when talking about DeSantis, whose entire campaign is literally built around "destroying leftism"

He's the guy that literally said (paraphrasing) I may have won 51% of the vote but I wield 100% of the power.
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Old 05-29-2023, 10:49 PM   #457
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What could Biden have done differently? How has he contributed to this divide?

Too many non-white guy judges.
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Old 05-30-2023, 05:42 AM   #458
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I would say the crazies on the far right AND left are what is bringing the country down.

One side literally stormed the Capitol building, attempting to overthrow an election with violent force while the other *checks notes* wants people to stop banning books in schools. Totally the same.

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Old 05-30-2023, 08:00 AM   #459
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One side literally stormed the Capitol building, attempting to overthrow an election with violent force while the other *checks notes* wants people to stop banning books in schools. Totally the same.



Says the crypto-bro.

Remember when the left took over a square block in Seattle or when they tried to set a federal courthouse on fire? Good times.
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Old 05-30-2023, 08:12 AM   #460
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Remember when the left took over a square block in Seattle or when they tried to set a federal courthouse on fire? Good times.

Are "the left" the only side that was protesting George Floyd's murder and police brutality? I'm always curious at that being assigned strictly to the left. Especially when many of these incidents that conservatives complain about were verifiably incited by white supremacists.

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Old 05-30-2023, 08:15 AM   #461
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And I didn't see a single person here or anyone in power condone setting fire to a court house, nor did Biden pardon anyone.

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Old 05-30-2023, 09:28 AM   #462
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Says the crypto-bro.

Sounds like someone is still in the matrix!
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Old 05-30-2023, 10:25 AM   #463
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Are "the left" the only side that was protesting George Floyd's murder and police brutality? I'm always curious at that being assigned strictly to the left. Especially when many of these incidents that conservatives complain about were verifiably incited by white supremacists.

I think the right is by far more prone to incite crap like this, but let's be fair and balanced here. A lot of the good that could have come from the George Floyd situation, as an example, was undermined by opportunists looting and in general creating chaos, for no other reason, than to create chaos. Was it all left leaning people, no, but it still doesn't change the fact that people that protest on that side are not incapable of violence.

And Seattle was a complete shitshow, which I blame on city leadership as much as anyone.

And I am not a "both sides" guy, it's just the truth. I see a lot of the machinations of the far right a lot more dangerous for our country than anything the left is doing, but neither extreme gets a pass when it comes to protest violence.

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Old 05-30-2023, 11:40 AM   #464
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I think the right is by far more prone to incite crap like this, but let's be fair and balanced here. A lot of the good that could have come from the George Floyd situation, as an example, was undermined by opportunists looting and in general creating chaos, for no other reason, than to create chaos. Was it all left leaning people, no, but it still doesn't change the fact that people that protest on that side are not incapable of violence.

If it wasn't all people on the left, then it is disingenuous to say that "the left" did it. It was people. Not a political group.

Trying to compare that to obvious right wing extremism is not intellectually honest.
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Old 05-30-2023, 04:16 PM   #465
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If it wasn't all people on the left, then it is disingenuous to say that "the left" did it. It was people. Not a political group.

Trying to compare that to obvious right wing extremism is not intellectually honest.
This. People looting were not making a political statement, they were taking advantage of a situation.
And yes, the Seattle thing was the far left run amok, but noticed how that did not become the identity of the Democratic party, wasn't ran on by politicians (who pretty universally condemn it), nor was there any promise of Presidential pardons made. It is not even in the realm of the same thing.
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Old 05-30-2023, 04:19 PM   #466
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Extreme is extreme and should be condemned regardless as it's also pretty disingenuous to state that every time there is political chaos, if it's a left leaning issue/protest there must be infiltrators from the right and if its the a right leaning protest it's all them.

We can split hairs on what percentage of xxxxx is actually people on the other side of the aisle all we want, but people that are uncompromising in the belief in their narrative are all capable of this crap.

The big difference is the right's agenda is more dangerous at this point
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Old 05-30-2023, 04:21 PM   #467
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Just to add, there was a federal officer that was killed in Oakland during the George Floyd protest. Who was that again? Oh, yeah. A right-wing extremist.

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Old 05-30-2023, 04:23 PM   #468
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Extreme is extreme and should be condemned regardless

It is.

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as it's also pretty disingenuous to state that every time there is political chaos, if it's a left leaning issue/protest there must be infiltrators from the right and if its the a right leaning protest it's all them.

Nobody stated that every time that's the way it is and will be. These cases were looked at individually. That determination was made based on actual facts in each.

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We can split hairs on what percentage of xxxxx is actually people on the other side of the aisle all we want

100% of the people involved in the Jan 6th insurrection were right wing extremists carrying out a politically motivated violent attack.

None of that is true for the counter-examples. None. It's not splitting hairs.

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Old 05-30-2023, 04:24 PM   #469
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Extreme is extreme and should be condemned regardless as it's also pretty disingenuous to state that every time there is political chaos, if it's a left leaning issue/protest there must be infiltrators from the right and if its the a right leaning protest it's all them.

We can split hairs on what percentage of xxxxx is actually people on the other side of the aisle all we want, but people that are uncompromising in the belief in their narrative are all capable of this crap.

The big difference is the right's agenda is more dangerous at this point
That's not what we said. There definitely were right wing infiltrators that did do something, but the looters were just opportunist. They were not doing it in the name of a political movement. They were doing it because they could.
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Old 05-30-2023, 04:31 PM   #470
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Jesus Christ, it's not about keeping score, it's about the future of this country. Extremism is bad, period. And yes the Dems don't condone it, which still doesn't prevent it, and yes the GOP does, which only encourages it.

My grandkids have to grow up in this political shithole and that's my concern, for both their safety and sanity.
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Old 05-30-2023, 04:36 PM   #471
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That's not what we said. There definitely were right wing infiltrators that did do something, but the looters were just opportunist. They were not doing it in the name of a political movement. They were doing it because they could.

And I disagreed with that where? Of course J6 was 100% political, my overlying point is neither side has clean hands in this countries problems over the last few years, GOP is just gone beyond dirty hands to fully covered in mud.
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Old 05-30-2023, 04:37 PM   #472
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Fact: The BLM protests were bad, damaging, and was a mix of the left, right, and opportunists. It's hard not to put most of the blame on the left, but they weren't acting alone. Yes, something like 99% of the protests were peaceful, but it doesn't excuse damage and destruction done in the other 1%.

Fact: J6 was entirely the right. There's no evidence of anyone else being involved unless you want to jump down a rabbit hole of fringe websites and russian disinformation


Both were bad. It doesn't matter if one was worse than the other or anything else.

The left needs to accept their role in the BLM protests and the Right needs to accept what J6 really was.

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Old 05-30-2023, 04:38 PM   #473
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Fact: The BLM protests were bad, damaging, and was a mix of the left, right, and opportunists. It's hard not to put most of the blame on the left, but they weren't acting alone. Yes, something like 99% of the protests were peaceful, but it doesn't excuse damage and destruction done in the other 1%.

Fact: J6 was entirely the right. There's no evidence of anyone else being involved unless you want to jump down a rabbit hole of fringe websites and russian disinformation


Both were bad. It doesn't matter if one was worse than the other or anything else.

The left needs to accept their role in the BLM protests and the Right needs to accept what J6 really was.

Thank you, stated much better than I was attempting to do
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Old 05-30-2023, 04:42 PM   #474
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Fact: The BLM protests were bad

How so? You said yourself 99% of them were peaceful. This statement, which you emphasized was a fact, doesn't seem consistent with that at all. I would agree that the 1% that was looting and rioting was bad, but that's a totally different statement. Again, I do not think it is in any way honest to say "The BLM protests were bad."

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Old 05-30-2023, 04:54 PM   #475
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"I know you are attempting to murder Democracy, but some people stole some sneakers, so both sides!"
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Old 05-30-2023, 05:21 PM   #476
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"I know you are attempting to murder Democracy, but some people stole some sneakers, so both sides!"

It's not a both sides are equally bad thing, it's the fact that the left seems to becoming less and less inclined to accept its faults because the right is worse.

I agree the right is a serious threat to the country, but something like 25 people died in the George Floyd protests. Plus you had somewhere in the neighborhood of $1-2 billion in damages, which some want to write off as not a big deal because insurance companies foot the bill. However, the economic damage to communities carries on for years. LA was estimated to suffer around $4 billion in economic decline in the years after the '92 riots.
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Old 05-30-2023, 05:33 PM   #477
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It's not a both sides are equally bad thing, it's the fact that the left seems to becoming less and less inclined to accept its faults because the right is worse.

Because the damages from riots associated with the George Floyd protests are not a result of *anything* to do with "the left."

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I agree the right is a serious threat to the country, but something like 25 people died in the George Floyd protests.

Which, again, were not based on leftist ideologies, promoting leftist views, or basically anything to do with the politically left. Being against police brutality is not a leftist view. And it wasn't extreme leftism that escalated some of the protests to violence and/or rioting. In fact, it was often white supermacists/right wing extremists inciting it.

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Old 05-30-2023, 05:37 PM   #478
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The Right-wing media has done such a good job of making protestors equal looters that is obvious that many people can't tell the difference.

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Old 05-30-2023, 05:39 PM   #479
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Both Atocep and myself are acknowledging the far right is a threat to democracy and worse than the left, but to gloss over the fact that the violence that broke out in those protests as 'a few sneakers' is ridiculous. Innocent people died, some protecting their stores and it cost small business millions of dollars and millions more in damage to personal property and government/city buildings.

But yeah, equate that to Nike having to write off a few thousand dollars for their sneakers getting stolen. Bad is bad, it doesn't have to be eye for an eye.
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Old 05-30-2023, 05:42 PM   #480
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The left needs to accept their role in the BLM protests and the Right needs to accept what J6 really was.

I think this gets to the crux of the issue. Who, on the left, is the spokesperson who should publicly accept responsibility for the BLM protests? It's certainly not a political party. What occurred was not organized by the Democratic party and the violence that came out of it was, by almost all party leaders, state and federal, condemned. Is there some entity that organized the summer protests? Antifa is not even an organization - it's a decentralized group of far left militants. And I'm not aware of the Democratic party approving of or encouraging Antifa protests that resulted in violence. And I'd love to see someone tell me, in any particular riot, which ones were "antifa" and which ones were the same types of hooligans who rioted in LA after the Rodney King incident.

By contrast, J6 was entirely a GOP/right wing political event. It was not a spontaneous protest; it was planned months in advance by fringe radical groups and Trump-stoked "patriots" with what appears to be some "wink wink nod nod" assistance and encouragement from party affiliates and who appeared with and received support from many people in the GOP apparatus. And of course, after the fact, the entire thing was downplayed and multiple party leaders (including the top 2 candidates to be the 2024 nominee) are talking about pardons to this day.

So when you talk about the "left" and the "right" taking responsibility, you are absolutely equating BLM with the Democratic party as having the responsibility to speak for the entire "left," as if they had the same role in the Floyd protests that the GOP had in J6.
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Old 05-30-2023, 05:42 PM   #481
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The Right-wing media has done such a good job of making protestors equal looters that is obvious that many people can't tell the difference.

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Anyone paying attention absolutely sees the difference. Anyone paying attention also doesn't dismiss the millions and millions of dollars lost as no big deal. Or is that just casualties of war?
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Old 05-30-2023, 05:42 PM   #482
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Dola: which is exactly why the police largely ignored looters and spent all their manpower attacking protestors. This sentiment is exactly what the police were hoping for.

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Old 05-30-2023, 05:45 PM   #483
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No big deal? Condemned is the words that we both agreed was done. No one was saying it was right or good. We are saying they were not "leftist" or "protestors." You are trying to make them the same thing.

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Old 05-30-2023, 05:59 PM   #484
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Anyone paying attention also doesn't dismiss the millions and millions of dollars lost as no big deal. Or is that just casualties of war?

You keep equating saying it's not the left's responsibility is the same as saying it's no big deal. Read this carefully: the protests, rioting, and looting were not a product of left wing politics or ideals. The politically left do not need to take responsibility for it. It was not motivated by left wing politics nor largely carried out by "left wing extremists."

You've been conditioned to equate George Floyd protests with the politically left. They weren't. I have many conservative friends who went to them. Basically just as many as leftist friends. The escalation from protest to riots and violence was often instigated by demonstrably non-leftist people.

This is silly.
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Old 05-30-2023, 06:15 PM   #485
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There absolutely was extremist leftist at those riots and that's not conditioning it's fact. I never said it was a leftist platform, it had an extreme left element, that definitely engaged in the rioting, as did opportunists and people from the right causing chaos. Antifa had a FB group here in AZ that was planning on causing problems at protests here.

Again, you are trying to totally distance anyone on the left from this bullshit and that's just not the case.

Again, the right was 100% behind J6, 100% political, period.

The protests over injustice got much more support from the left then the right, it was a resonating democrat issue, so yes, it would draw democrats to the protests. Since neither you, or I can produce exact numbers on political leanings it's silly to keep discussing. Take your dub, the left had nothing to do with looting and violence.
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Old 05-30-2023, 06:56 PM   #486
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There absolutely was extremist leftist at those riots

Sigh. Straw man.

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that definitely engaged in the rioting

How many? How do you know?

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as did opportunists and people from the right causing chaos. Antifa had a FB group here in AZ that was planning on causing problems at protests here.

Antifa is just people. It's not only not a left leaning group, it's not even a group. Stop equating Antifa with left.

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Again, you are trying to totally distance anyone on the left from this bullshit and that's just not the case.


No, that's what you need me to be doing in order to ignore what I'm saying.

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The protests over injustice got much more support from the left then the right.

The protests aren't the issue. Everyone should have been involved in those, frankly.

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it was a resonating democrat issue, so yes, it would draw democrats to the protests. Since neither you, or I can produce exact numbers on political leanings it's silly to keep discussing. Take your dub, the left had nothing to do with looting and violence.

More straw-manning

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Old 05-30-2023, 07:00 PM   #487
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LOL, we agree on 75% of the issue, so this 25% is not worth the energy, with the usual requests for numbers and proof and everything you didn't provide either, because as I said neither of us can do that.

Carry on
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Old 05-30-2023, 07:14 PM   #488
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LOL, we agree on 75% of the issue, so this 25% is not worth the energy, with the usual requests for numbers and proof and everything you didn't provide either, because as I said neither of us can do that.

Carry on

What numbers was I asked to provide, and why?
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Old 05-30-2023, 07:17 PM   #489
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He said good day!
It is fine, BYUfan. We will agree to disagree on this one.

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Old 05-30-2023, 07:26 PM   #490
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He said good day!
It is fine, BYUfan. We will agree to disagree on this one.

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Sorry, just don't like being accused of running from a claim or whatever.
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Old 05-30-2023, 07:51 PM   #491
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I think the big thing that gets ignored in comparing the two is the WHY.

BLM was born of a frustration by a marginalized and historically mistreated group and there supporters. Absolutely bad actors inserted themselves.

1/6 was born from a bunch of crybabies who lost an election and can't cope with the fact the nation is evolving. They were spurred on by their cult leader who would rather destroy the nation then admit defeat. The capitol was attacked for the first time since the civil war.

There is no comparison.
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Old 05-30-2023, 09:05 PM   #492
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Originally Posted by Ksyrup View Post
I think this gets to the crux of the issue. Who, on the left, is the spokesperson who should publicly accept responsibility for the BLM protests? It's certainly not a political party. What occurred was not organized by the Democratic party and the violence that came out of it was, by almost all party leaders, state and federal, condemned. Is there some entity that organized the summer protests? Antifa is not even an organization - it's a decentralized group of far left militants. And I'm not aware of the Democratic party approving of or encouraging Antifa protests that resulted in violence. And I'd love to see someone tell me, in any particular riot, which ones were "antifa" and which ones were the same types of hooligans who rioted in LA after the Rodney King incident.

By contrast, J6 was entirely a GOP/right wing political event. It was not a spontaneous protest; it was planned months in advance by fringe radical groups and Trump-stoked "patriots" with what appears to be some "wink wink nod nod" assistance and encouragement from party affiliates and who appeared with and received support from many people in the GOP apparatus. And of course, after the fact, the entire thing was downplayed and multiple party leaders (including the top 2 candidates to be the 2024 nominee) are talking about pardons to this day.

So when you talk about the "left" and the "right" taking responsibility, you are absolutely equating BLM with the Democratic party as having the responsibility to speak for the entire "left," as if they had the same role in the Floyd protests that the GOP had in J6.


I see what you mean and mostly agree. Maybe a better way of putting is the left needs to stop marginalizing or downplaying it. You had a couple dozen people die, a billion plus in damage, and untold costs down the line.

99% of protests were peaceful ignores the costs some of the communities paid.

It's not a both sides or a scoreboard thing. You can accept that J6 was one of the lowest points in our countries history, that the violent Floyd protests were also a dark point, and try to make sure both never happen again without saying they were equal and constantly directly comparing the two.
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Old 05-30-2023, 09:35 PM   #493
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Maybe let's take this conversation to one of the many political threads. What about Twitter and the Musk?
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Old 05-30-2023, 09:40 PM   #494
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Maybe let's take this conversation to one of the many political threads. What about Twitter and the Musk?

Is that you Edward?
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Old 05-30-2023, 09:47 PM   #495
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Nah, I don't want to be that guy that jumps into a discussion without doing my due diligence to make sure I understand what's being discussed and the POVs.

It's a good idea though, I would actually propose the Biden thread.
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Old 05-30-2023, 09:59 PM   #496
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Although I don't like it, I'm not going to blame Musk for doing what he has to do to continue propping up, growing etc. Tesla. At this point, Tesla doing well is also good & strategic for the US.

But I can see a time in the next 5-10 years where Chinese (and US) competitors are much closer on true EVs, and the US is well on its Infrastructure push, and so much closer to reduced dependence on ME heavy crude. At that time, hopefully the US won't need Tesla near as much to lead the way.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/30/tesl...expansion.html
Quote:
Elon Musk met with China’s Foreign Minister Qin Gang on Tuesday as Beijing pushed to show it is open to foreign business and the Tesla CEO reportedly signaled further expansion in China.

The meeting between Musk and Qin comes at a time of continued tensions between the U.S. and China over technology.

Tesla opposes “decoupling” and is willing to continue to expand its business in China, according to a statement from the Chinese foreign ministry.
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Old 05-30-2023, 10:13 PM   #497
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I mean, I'll grant that it's not nothing. But this $1-2B is estimated by insurance companies, right? I'm sure there was no padding of stats there.

It was also spread out over a good number of sites I'd imagine. But all told, it's what, not even a state-of-the-art ballpark? More like a condo building or two. Or a few years of payouts for police misconduct.

(Damage inflicted again by...opportunists. Criminals and anarchists, not the "left.")
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Old 05-30-2023, 10:40 PM   #498
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Originally Posted by cuervo72 View Post

(Damage inflicted again by...opportunists. Criminals and anarchists, not the "left.")

Why aren't they "the left"?
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Old 05-30-2023, 10:47 PM   #499
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Why aren't they "the left"?

because they aren't doing it based on some political ideology. Everyone who stormed the Capitol did so based on the fact they wanted to overturn the election. Everyone who looted during BLM did so because they wanted fee sneakers and TVs.
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Old 05-30-2023, 10:52 PM   #500
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There were plenty of BLM supporters that were saying "Looting is just a form of reparations"

Black Lives Matter Chicago activist looting as reparations comments
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