Future of Education

[AENeuman]

My school district, San Jose Unified, has recently been embracing online and software learning for its high school students. I teach at a high school/jr. college hybrid program and we have been given lots of new programs and computers for students to take several of their core classes.

After doing some trainings, and seeing the results, I think this is where education is heading. The ability to adapt to the specific needs of a student and engage them in a way impossible at regular comprehensive classroom is hard to beat.

Of course this shift will replace teachers with technical assistants. But I think it's old fashion thinking that a teacher with 40 plus kids, several language levels and many learning styles/needs is effective.

While it's not here yet i can see an open ended program (GTA) having a greater ability to encourage and teach a student based on their needs, style of learning and strengths.

This is not to say the loss of classroom human interaction is insignificant, but it almost is today. If the classroom became that only which the programs cannot do, i think a classroom experience would be much more enriching, more college like

Ok, just a thought...

[Cringer]

Don't forget armed guards in every classroom.

[Dr. Sak]

Anyone else laughing at the thread title?

[Mustang]

I also see that the futrure of education is to start using more R's.

Must be that whole readin' ritin' rithmatic' thing.

[AENeuman]

My funny. need a better program to tell me i'm dumb

[JonInMiddleGA]

The one thing I can predict pretty comfortably (after watching it happen for several decades now) is that if this is the direction California is going, then Georgia (and quite a bit of the Southeast best I can tell) will adopt the model ... in about 6-10 years.

If, in the unfortunate event it turns out to be a dud after you've had time to analyze the results, we will then need another 6-10 years to unscrew ourselves.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

The one thing I can predict pretty comfortably (after watching it happen for several decades now) is that if this is the direction California is going, then Georgia (and quite a bit of the Southeast best I can tell) will adopt the model ... in about 6-10 years.

If, in the unfortunate event it turns out to be a dud after you've had time to analyze the results, we will then need another 6-10 years to unscrew ourselves.

Or you could be like Wake County and decide to pioneer a new technique and combine it with an old technique that has failed in most other parts of the country that together rips families apart and buses kids 19+ miles to school, despite it being proven time and again that the key to education is parental involvement and that you need to build community relations to improve underperforming schools. Not that I'm bitter about having to spend $10K per year ($20K once my son hits kindergarten) to ensure my kids have a stable school assignment and are on the same calendar at a school near our house or anything...

[gottimd]

I'm interested to here other FOFC'ers thoughts on this mainly because the company I work for is helping provide the programs that AENeuman talks about in the first post. I know when I was in school in the 80's and 90's, stuff nowadays obviously wasn't available at all.

[Barkeep49]

I agree with AENeuman, that customization is the direction that education seems to be headed. However, I think you're looking much more at a bifurcated model than what has been suggested. You are going to see districts of modest/limited means adopt technology as the answer. At the same time I think you're going to see private schools/well off public schools offer this same level of personalization but through time intensive teacher interactions.

[MacroGuru]

Actually, I promote and encourage a blended learning environment.

However, the classroom envrionment is still needed to help with interpersonal and soft skills as well as having an expert in what the kids are learning about.

This type of environment allows for short bursts/doses of learning that students tend to retain better than a total all day environment.

[MacroGuru]

Dola,

I am currently in the process of studying the best education and teaching practices in all facets. So this is also a thread I am interested in hearing others thoughts and opinions on.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by MacroGuru

Actually, I promote and encourage a blended learning environment.

However, the classroom envrionment is still needed to help with interpersonal and soft skills as well as having an expert in what the kids are learning about.

This type of environment allows for short bursts/doses of learning that students tend to retain better than a total all day environment.

How many classrooms really have an "expert" in the subject? Too few is my contention.

[gottimd]

What about the use of technology to more or less join the teaching community? I know teachers can go to workshops to learn these things, but what if it was easily accessible to all teachers to see effective ways to help students learn materials? Post grades, assign homework, give parents real time updates, text messages to students and parents for alerts, textbooks all online, exams, form study groups online, etc. The possibilities are endless.

I know it grows our dependency on the virtual world to create a classroom for students and limiting interpersonal relationships, but I don't think it would necessarily get rid of the location of a school/classroom. I think it gives the classroom a chance to reach further into the home instead of just the school property. Sounds like a terrible idea if you are a K-12 student in their minds, but as a parent, its gotta sound pretty good.

Not to mention this same technology described above today can help secure schools a little better (Video Surveillance, Door Access, Text Messaging Alerts, etc) so that these "bad seeds" or threats can be caught earlier before any destruction happens. I am not saying it is a 100% guarantee or to start profiling students, but it does help out or at least decrease those chances more than just putting a metal detector in.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by gottimd

I'm interested to here other FOFC'ers thoughts on this mainly because ...

From a consumer standpoint? Or a parental standpoint? Or an educational standpoint? All of these?

[ColtCrazy]

Our school seems to be the pilot school for the school district when it comes to a lot of the new software programs. Our school uses Accelerated programs for Reading and Math. They are structured so that students can work on their own individualized goals and learn at their levels. It's a good program, but does not replace teaching. In fact, the teacher can pretty much make or break the program depending on how they do on the mini-lessons and book talks.

I don't see education going away from teachers. However, a new teacher needs to be tech savvy. It's funny how I've taught long enough to have heard the word "clustering" as a bad thing and now I'm starting to hear it as a solution to the varying needs of the student. What goes around comes around.

The real focus that education needs to improve is to have tougher qualifications for teachers. Test us, keep training us, push us, and quick letting tenured teachers rest on their laurels. Then, we need programs to educate parents. I bet out of my class of 5th graders, 30% of their parents can't help them in any subject because they don't know it. I was reviewing homework the other day with a student. Based on the answers that were partially erased the student would have got 19 out of 20 correct. Instead, they got 14. After we reviewed it, the student told me..."Mom checked those" Without educating parents, teachers are constantly taking 2 steps forward and two steps back with children. And a bad teacher gets no where with them. There are far too many of them out there.

[gottimd]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

From a consumer standpoint? Or a parental standpoint? Or an educational standpoint? All of these?

All of them. Pros and cons. Is there a difference between the consumer and the parent/student/school?

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by ColtCrazy

Our school seems to be the pilot school for the school district when it comes to a lot of the new software programs. Our school uses Accelerated programs for Reading and Math. They are structured so that students can work on their own individualized goals and learn at their levels. It's a good program, but does not replace teaching. In fact, the teacher can pretty much make or break the program depending on how they do on the mini-lessons and book talks.

AR is OK for what it is, but too many schools use it for things it's not meant to be and so I think it is a net negative in the world of education. AR has become a replacement for teaching independent reading at too many schools. And far too teachers take the time to use the program to the full advantage, by adding in tests for other books, for instance.

The real focus that education needs to improve is to have tougher qualifications for teachers. Test us, keep training us, push us, and quick letting tenured teachers rest on their laurels.

So we make it tougher for teachers to become teachers, and then what? I would love teaching to regain the sort of professional attitude that doctors and layers have, for instance. But the need for teachers is greater than the need for doctors or lawyers. I agree that many many teachers are not people I would want teaching my child, but making it harder to become a teacher, and let's not kid ourselves it's harder to become a teacher now than it was 10 years ago, doesn't mean that you get better teachers.

[gottimd]

I takes a certain somebody to want to strive to be a teacher. Not that I have any vested interest at the moment, but I think teachers should get paid a hell of a lot more than they do now. Unless you have a passion for teaching and are willing to accept the lower salary than most of your peers, not many are attracted to the field itself.

It think a teaching career is rewarding career and makes a difference in peoples lives. But most people look at like a hedge fund manager who makes a few billion a year and want to become that, out of greed. But to get back on topic, I think the future of education and the technology available should help improve the quality of teachers and teaching. Not to say that any teacher is horrendous, but I don't see any negatives in joining that community together to help identify areas of improvement.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by gottimd

All of them. Pros and cons. Is there a difference between the consumer and the parent/student/school?

Yeah, there's probably some differences.

I mean, as a taxpayer you're a "consumer" of public education whether you like it or not, you're paying for it after all.

From a student standpoint I imagine a shift to more home-based/computer driven would probably go over like a lead balloon with at least 4 out of 5 kids, as would anything that cut back on the socialization time.

As a parent, I'm all for it. Admittedly my feelings are colored by personal experiences but I've long considered all of what MacroGuru described as the "soft skills" to be the least valuable part of the standard K-12 experience & a significant part of the problem when it comes to teaching the more concrete stuff.

From the consumer standpoint I'm probably even more in favor of it. Anything that will help reduce the overwhelming cost of brick-and-mortar and improve the bang for the buck I'm probably going to favor, especially when it at least has the possibility to improve on the current incredibly broken model.

Keep in mind too, however, that this is coming from the perspective of someone who gets to read headlines like this one: According to the unofficial results, only 20 to 30 percent of Georgia's sixth- and seventh-graders passed the state social studies exam. In math, about 40 percent of eighth-graders could be held back because they failed the test.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

San Jose Unified

Huh...you mean this isn't a soccer team?

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

How many classrooms really have an "expert" in the subject? Too few is my contention.

I agree with you here. It's part of the reason Charter Schools and Private Schools do so well, they have the ability to bring in the "expert" to teach the subject at hand.

One of these days, I will post my idea of a Business/Technology Focused Charter School.

[gottimd]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

From a student standpoint I imagine a shift to more home-based/computer driven would probably go over like a lead balloon with at least 4 out of 5 kids, as would anything that cut back on the socialization time.[/i]

Do you really think that the software or whichever learning tool is chosen will replace the classroom? I was thinking more of being able to extend it, not get rid of it. I don't think that is what future holds unless there are so many budget cuts that having a physical location of a school is too much money. Paranoia over recent events may drive more students to online learning from home, but not all of them.

What about those students who are taught from home already? This could bring the classroom to them, no?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by gottimd

Do you really think that the software or whichever learning tool is chosen will replace the classroom? I was thinking more of being able to extend it, not get rid of it.

Eventually? Yeah, to at least some extent. That's a logical extension of what you're talking about I think, just as the efficiencies & benefits of telecommuting have given it a certain popularity in the workplace. I doubt it would ever be fully implemented if for no reason other than it would remove the government subsidized daycare program that public schools provide.

What about those students who are taught from home already? This could bring the classroom to them, no?

I don't really see it trending that way. At least not as far as public schools are concerned. For many who have taken the home school route there are issues that extend beyond physical presence on campus or even teachers themselves. Even if you improve the method (hypothetically say, improving the tailoring of how/what is taught by shifting to something computer driven) there are still enough issues remaining that I wouldn't foresee a great deal of movement back toward the institutions, simply because this wouldn't address all of the issues.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

All of this talk makes me extremely thankful that we've settled in an area with a great public school system.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I agree with AENeuman, that customization is the direction that education seems to be headed.

Maximum Education 2.0!

[cartman]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Maximum Education 2.0!

Make sure your frame rate is high enough to See Spot Run.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

All of this talk makes me extremely thankful that we've settled in an area with a great public school system.

So did we. They're doing a pretty good job of destroying it, though. Elections for the school board next year will be the key...

To expound a bit, we bought a house that was assigned to an elementary school that has won the President's Blue Ribbon Award twice. Our subdivision was built 17 years ago, and the western edge of it is across the street from this school. New subdivisions have gone in nearby, and now the school is a bit overcrowded. So, they built a new school farther away from us, but instead of the new subdivisions going there, they decided to move half of our neighborhood to the new school. When the parents complained, they decided to move the ENTIRE neighborhood to the new school (and this is not the first time, the played games a few years back with another set of parents that complained about assignment policies). Mind you, while this was about 25% of the student population of this school, it was roughly HALF of the PTA. The new school is year-round, the old school traditional. While we have no inherent objection to year-round, the middle school is funneled from both these elementary schools, so when our oldest goes to middle school, our youngest would still be in a year-round elementary, meaning we'd have different school calendars for the two kids. Plus, the plans for the new school did not take into account construction going on right next to it, and so that school will be overcrowded soon and they'll be pushing kids back out again.

Add to that they have started using Free and Reduced Lunch percentages as a way to institute a diversity policy, and so despite the fact that Davis Drive Elementary is already 40% minority, they took the opportunity to assign roughly 100 kids from one of southeast Raleigh's poor neighborhoods roughly 45 minutes to Davis Drive. Move 300 kids out to relieve overcrowding, bus in 100 others from halfway across the county to balance F&R numbers. This just kills any shot at parental involvement for these 100 kids, not to mention killing budgets in this age of rising gas prices.

So we're in a county that wants to bus kids across the county to balance out economic populations, does not believe in neighborhood schools (the chairwoman is quoted as saying we have "county schools"), does not believe in keeping families on the same school calendar, and does not believe it's important to let kids stay at an elementary school once they start there, we've opted for private school. And we're not alone; Wake County has 18% of its student-age children in options other than public schools (either private/parochial or homeschool), while the national average is somewhere around 8%. And Wake County's numbers are rising. It actually bit the school board this year in their budget talks, as last year's budget was predicated on a certain student population based on their growth projections, and they fell 2500 students shy. It's been fun listening to them try to protect the budget by claiming the numbers were actually a multi-year prediction, which is a bald-faced lie based on their own documents.

The next election cycle for the school board should be interesting. They've been slowly working these policies in over the last decade, and may have finally hit the tipping point of ticked off parents that may enable a change in the makeup of the board.

[gottimd]

So a great school system means one without online and software learning? I don't understand the correlation between the two. I would think that great school systems would be more inclined to move in this direction. It would be the "not so" great ones that would have trouble affording systems.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by gottimd

So a great school system means one without online and software learning? I don't understand the correlation between the two. I would think that great school systems would be more inclined to move in this direction. It would be the "not so" great ones that would have trouble affording systems.

I would indeed argue that poorer schools are more likely to substitute a computer for teaching than affluent schools. The richer school is more likely to use a computer for more generally as a tool to accomplish a task, and more specifically for creative purposes. But that's not substituting a computer for a teacher it's substituting a computer for a pencil or a calculator or a posterboard or some other tool or material. Conversely, programs like AR are often used in lieu of other instruction (sometimes for good reasons and sometimes not).

[ColtCrazy]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

AR is OK for what it is, but too many schools use it for things it's not meant to be and so I think it is a net negative in the world of education. AR has become a replacement for teaching independent reading at too many schools. And far too teachers take the time to use the program to the full advantage, by adding in tests for other books, for instance.


So we make it tougher for teachers to become teachers, and then what? I would love teaching to regain the sort of professional attitude that doctors and layers have, for instance. But the need for teachers is greater than the need for doctors or lawyers. I agree that many many teachers are not people I would want teaching my child, but making it harder to become a teacher, and let's not kid ourselves it's harder to become a teacher now than it was 10 years ago, doesn't mean that you get better teachers.

I'll agree with you on the AR point. I know many teachers just make it silent reading time and really don't do anything with the kids to enhance their comprehension of the material. It becomes a strive for points, not reading for enjoyment.

I see your frustration on the 2nd part, and we both know there are many teachers out there that simply don't belong in the classroom. Some city districts near where I live hire non-teachers because they are so strapped for help. Sure, you could bring in better teachers if you'd pay them more and balance it with tougher restrictions, but we know they won't raise teacher pay. We need something, though, to weed out the ones that can't teach. A bad teacher can really wreck a classroom. For years I had an absolutely useless teacher in the grade below me. It was almost like starting over when I got her kids the following years...they picked up habits they didn't have the year before.

[CamEdwards]

gstelmack,

Have you considered running for the school board? It sounds like you can actually articulate not only what you consider to be the problem, but also a solution. That's pretty rare from my experiences with school board candidates.

[johnnyshaka]

As an employee in the Technology Department of a school district I am constantly baffled by the expenditures of the district relating to technology. In fact, my boss and I routinely have "discussions" about how assinine their "plans" are. The latest one, happened this morning, was about their plan to put laptops in front of every teacher in the district...in place of their current desktops...and to have a projector and/or smartboard in every classroom.

On the surface it sounds like a step forward...in the right direction...right? Teachers have been forever complaining about not being able to work from home so giving them laptops was a logical solution to facilitate that need. Huh?? Teachers are already overworked and underpaid...now you are going to give them tools to work MORE?? No, that won't lead to strike action in several years...

No thought has been put into security with every staff member running around with wireless enabled gear. When the mention of a budget for software and hardware that need to be in place for such an environment you always get a blank stare. They seem to put their heads in the sand and figure that none of the bad things that they read about in the news will ever happen here.

Just because we've put all this technology in front of staff and students who says they know how to put it to good use? Keep in mind that a teacher with 20 years of experience started teaching before they ever saw a personal computer. How do you expect an entire generation of teachers to learn how to best use something so foreign to them and continue to evolve as fast as things change in the IT world? Sure, it's easy to say that they HAVE to adapt but what if they don't? I've met my fair share of teachers who think they already know everything there is to know about teaching and feel like they don't need to learn anything else. No offense to any teachers in the crowd, but I get this WAY more often than I'd care to admit.

Personally, I think it's a slippery slope. I love technology but at the same time I think it has its place in schools and education as a tool, and not as a solution. As a parent of a 2-year old, I haven't had to deal with the public school system as a "parent" yet but when the time comes I definitely don't want to hear that my kid is being plunked in front of a computer for half the day. I like to consider myself an active father and I would like to know that teachers are reinforcing the values (respect, responsibility, etc...) that we are trying to instill at home during the couple of hours a day that we get with our kid after school and before bedtime. I don't think sitting in front of a computer does that. As much as we like it or not, kids spend just as much or more time at school that they do at home and therefore teachers have a hand in raising our kids.

Assuming my child's school has all the latest and greatest software and hardware available to man, I still think that a good teacher who demands respect and honesty and knows how to effectively discipline kids is far more beneficial than technology will ever be.

[AENeuman]

we all know standardized testing is becoming the primary method of determining the success of students and teachers.

therefore, teaching becomes doing the greatest good for the greatest number of students. it makes no sense spending hours with a few students to raise their score a couple of points, from very bad to just bad. while that time could be spent raising the majority of the class from passing to good.

i think it is because of this testing movement individualize instruction is slipping away. and i think technology can make up this difference.

today's classrooms are inclusive in ways never before. no longer is there a "special" room or wing. each teacher is faced with a wide range of language, emotional, and learning needs. while it would be nice to have specialist, it is impossible.

embracing a technology that can be a specialist to the needs of students seems to be the best answer. even if that means elimintaing some teachers.

So I'm ready, just tell me where to type in "catalog"

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by ColtCrazy

I see your frustration on the 2nd part, and we both know there are many teachers out there that simply don't belong in the classroom. Some city districts near where I live hire non-teachers because they are so strapped for help. Sure, you could bring in better teachers if you'd pay them more and balance it with tougher restrictions, but we know they won't raise teacher pay. We need something, though, to weed out the ones that can't teach. A bad teacher can really wreck a classroom. For years I had an absolutely useless teacher in the grade below me. It was almost like starting over when I got her kids the following years...they picked up habits they didn't have the year before.

You're going to get no disagreement that a bad teacher can really wreck a class. The good news is that a good teacher can normally coax more than a year's worth of improvement out of a student, so one bad apple doesn't spoil the barrel. The problem is when you have a few bad apples. Your example illustrates, perfectly, the sort of ways I feel technology is going to impact education. You already have districts that are forced to hire unqualified teachers and this doesn't begin to approach the problem of bad teachers who are "qualified". It is these sort of situations where I see technology playing an increasing role of being the delivery mechanism of instruction. There will be less teachers, as AEN suggests, and that's just fine since the instruction will be more consistent across the board and the floor will be much higher on the instruction.

Personally my ideal vision, one I have espoused on here before, is a model where the classroom teacher is supported more by a "master teacher" who acts as a front line supervisor. Technology could also definitely play a role in this sort of structure.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

gstelmack,

Have you considered running for the school board? It sounds like you can actually articulate not only what you consider to be the problem, but also a solution. That's pretty rare from my experiences with school board candidates.

Of the 9 school board members, we have one sane one. He's in my district. We're pushing to find candidates in the other ones, plus there is a plan afoot to push for some at-large seats (likely 5 districts + 4 at-large, so everyone gets to vote for a majority of the board), but the Democrats in the county delegation to the state legislature are against it (which means it never comes up for vote at the state level), so we may have to push them out first

[gottimd]

From what it seems like, the general consensus is that software (aka e-learning) and computers is a way to replace teachers and the classroom? I don't think of it as a replacement, but an enhancement to our current methods and styles of teaching. It is a way to reach students in a manner that they are and have moved toward to begin with...the "internets".

I wasn't thinking that each class would be a computer lab, or you would have HAL teaching each class from home, but merely a way to reach out to students and parents. But I see the points people are making. I have a biased opinion though, but I am also thinking about when I was in grade school, high school and College, if I had the tools that were available today, it would be so much easier. (ie Homework given out online, study groups formed online, discussions about topics in class on line). It kinda sucks for the student because that would pretty much be the end of the Spicoli type student (for the most part), because if you skipped class or missed it, all you would have to do is sign on and find out what you missed and get those assignments.

I can see tons of benefits to both sides (parents and students), expecially joining the communities together in a much more efficient way. It seems like however some people are stuck on the notion that the computers will eventually replace teachers and the classroom, but I was thinking more of they would be used as tools to enhance learning.

[Barkeep49]

Gottimd: I think computers will be used, and are already being used, the way you describe, but only in affluent schools. This is part of the divide I see in education that is only going to grow.

[johnnyshaka]

Gottimd, I think you are giving kids way too much credit. What do you think most 14 year olds are going to do while sitting in front of a computer if they don't have somebody looking over their shoulder? I'll tell you...they are going to be looking for a way to get around filters so they can sign on to their MySpace page. Trust me, I see it each and every day.

I think you also have to keep in mind the costs behind integrating so much technology into every facet of education. I work in a school district that is primarily made up of rich, white kids and we get the shaft when it comes to funding from the province. Sure, all the kids have the latest and greatest hardware at home but that doesn't really help us in the district. To be able to setup, maintain, and use technology like you are suggesting takes a lot of "know how" (which doesn't come cheap), hardware (which doesn't come cheap), and 100% uptime (which also doesn't come cheap). With a limited budget where teachers and administrators get the first chunk it doesn't leave much for support staff and technology.

And here's another thing to think about...there are students who don't have the luxury of having a computer at home or high speed internet. Or maybe they have one computer but 3 kids who need to use that computer every night...how is everybody supposed to get their homework done or participate in an online discussion if they can't get online? Do these kids just fall through the cracks or is the state/province responsible for providing them hardware and internet access from home so they aren't at a disadvantage?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by gottimd

I wasn't thinking that each class would be a computer lab, or you would have HAL teaching each class from home, but merely a way to reach out to students and parents.

I can only figure from this that it isn't already being done consistently across the country. And while it's been common since pre-K at both the private schools we've dealt with, it's also already pretty common already at one of the more backasswards, backwoods, underperforming rural public schools in Georgia as well as a roughly average public school system also in Georgia. So I guess I'm a little surprised that it apparently isn't considered fairly common already.

Homework assignments available online, study guides available online, downloadable & printable flash cards (for lower grades) online, links to pertinent homework resources online, regular emails from both teachers & administrators (to varying degrees by school) ... all of that already exists at every school I'm familiar with, public or private.

But when it comes down to it, I see it as a convenience for people who already gave a damn about those things and virtually meaningless to those who didn't. I just can't picture uninvolved parents (or disinterested students) suddenly become model participants in the education process simply because the info is online. Either you is or you ain't, the rest is just procedural.