Werewolf XX - Of Demons and Elementals (Humans Win!)

[Poli]

Vote Grammaticus

At least for right now.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by saldana

ok, so i defended you yesterday, and now you are voting for me today because i didnt include what appeared to me to be obvious in my original 50+ line post. do you realize how blatantly stupid it would have been for me to say anything if i was being anything but completely honest....i have had no attention cast at me all game and could have continued to allow all of you to have no clue what happened last night. Instead i intentionally brought everyones attention on myself in an effort to give you all some information about what was going on, and in doing so admitted that I DONT have any concrete information.... I called out WVUFAN before i made any statements about what happened last night, and because my paraphasing of CW's insanely bizarre writing style doesnt match with what you wanted to hear, you are now voting for me.


talk about taking one for the team

Saldana, i appreciate you backing me yesterday...and i know in doing so you cast doubt on WVU...thats what i dont get...when your a wolf, you dont kill the person calling you out...you kill the person calling a villager out so the person he was calling out gets killed next...WVU WACTHED BARKEEP AVOID KILLING ME ALL GAME DESPITE ME CALLING HIM OUT, AND THAT WAS WVU'S FIRST GAME...WVU KNOWS HOW TO PLAY WOLF IF HE IS AGAIN, AND TO KILL YOU WOULD GO AGAINST EVERYTHING HE LEARNED LAST GAME...sorry, i trusted you, but thinking from a wolf perspective it doesnt make sense for wvu to try and kill you, and your story just helped...think about it, be open...if you were wvu, why would you attack saldana?? YOU WOULDNT

[saldana]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Saldana, I've gone through Post #362 a couple of times. Can you restate why you think WVU more strongly than Cronin? You have listed both as suspicious and lumped some behaviors as common across both. Is the quiet nature of WVU the deciding factor for you choosing between those two with your vote today or is there another factor that I'm missing?

i am actually pretty even in my suspicions right now...i started on WVU after he voted for Blade on day one,because even randomly, i dont like that vote from someone who has seen first hand that blade can be a very helpful player (except for the last 15 minutes apparently), and he has said nary a word all game except for one quick post here and there, which is exactly what barkeep and i told him to do last game when he was a wolf with us.

cronin drew my attention when he did exactly the opposite for most of the first day, and continues to today, when he posts a bunch of times with out actually making any contributions...it seems to me that he just wants to make it known that he is around so no one can say he is being too quiet, but he isnt doing anything along the lines of helping us.

the other thing that i am holding against them is that they are both new enough to have fallen for the bait i laid last night to try and get attacked. i did this because my role told me i would know something about my attacker, only it didnt work out this way because of the mystical powers that intervened.

i will be out for about an hour....i will try to get back on before i leave for work around 4

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

Saldana, i appreciate you backing me yesterday...and i know in doing so you cast doubt on WVU...thats what i dont get...when your a wolf, you dont kill the person calling you out...you kill the person calling a villager out so the person he was calling out gets killed next...WVU WACTHED BARKEEP AVOID KILLING ME ALL GAME DESPITE ME CALLING HIM OUT, AND THAT WAS WVU'S FIRST GAME...WVU KNOWS HOW TO PLAY WOLF IF HE IS AGAIN, AND TO KILL YOU WOULD GO AGAINST EVERYTHING HE LEARNED LAST GAME...sorry, i trusted you, but thinking from a wolf perspective it doesnt make sense for wvu to try and kill you, and your story just helped...think about it, be open...if you were wvu, why would you attack saldana?? YOU WOULDNT

I can think of a reason. We know that one side recieved favor from the elementals - perhaps that favor was the reveal that saldana had a secret identity? If the demons thought saldana was a witness or a seer or a bodyguard, they would go after him, wouldn't they?

[hoopsguy]

Blade, I agree with you on some of the inconsistencies with the Saldana story. And I had started to type a post that went after some of them. But I stopped heading down that path as I considered what he would have to gain as a demon by making this play. Which is basically where I changed gears and posted #371 saying that I are pretty confident that Saldana was on the up and up.

For what it is worth, Saldana was not in any kind of trust zone for me before that - I probably had him in lower third, although obviously subject to all kinds of movement since trust (particularly early trust) in this game is so fluid.

I think it would be a very sophisticated play to be a demon and fake the bard role with significant holes in the story. The demons should have a fairly good accounting of what took place last night between their PMs and CW's post. If they were going to fake a role today, when they don't really have to, I think their alibi would be pretty air-tight.

But, like you I am trying to understand the follow-through on WVUFan. The votes are starting to collect on him and I don't think there is a preponderance of evidence at the moment. Doesn't mean WVU isn't a demon, just means I want to understand the movement.

Gram, I concur with several of the others that a elemental bard would be pretty imbalanced - would take 3 attempts to kill by night, 2 attempts to kill by day. Plus have the power to kill one. Very over-the-top powerful, at least from my view.

[Coffee Warlord]

Fast and furious. The count as of now...

0 - hoopsguy
1 - Blade
1 - TazFTW
3 - WVUFAN
1 - dacman
1 - saldana
1 - Grammaticus

If a Rhino charges you, make sure it doesn't have a trout.

(The (OTHER) thing was nothing more than a typo, I might add. I did some of that writeup before I had all the sacrifices in, and it was a placeholder in the copy.)

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I can think of a reason. We know that one side recieved favor from the elementals - perhaps that favor was the reveal that saldana had a secret identity? If the demons thought saldana was a witness or a seer or a bodyguard, they would go after him, wouldn't they?

on the stretch thats true, i could see that....but on the flip side bodyguards almost always protect themselves on day one as the night kill is still pretty random too...if i was a wolf and knew there was a chance he was the bodyguard i would attack someone else...

The other thing, is coffee said favor only last for a certain amount of time, making me think role reveals is not one...thats a permanent thing...i would think favors are not of that nature

[Poli]

I thought I read somewhere that one, neither, or both sides could possibly receive the favor(tm).

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by saldana

cronin drew my attention when he did exactly the opposite for most of the first day, and continues to today, when he posts a bunch of times with out actually making any contributions...it seems to me that he just wants to make it known that he is around so no one can say he is being too quiet, but he isnt doing anything along the lines of helping us.

Believe me, if I could be more helpful I would be. Last werewolf game I was lynched on day 1 - prior to that I had been pretty chatty, but I don't think I was especially helpful. I assure you I am human, on the side of good, not a demon or elemental. Whatever secret role I may have, I don't even know about it yet.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

(The (OTHER) thing was nothing more than a typo, I might add. I did some of that writeup before I had all the sacrifices in, and it was a placeholder in the copy.)

A likely story, hater.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

A likely story, hater.

Vote AE

My votes count for 500.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Blade, I agree with you on some of the inconsistencies with the Saldana story. And I had started to type a post that went after some of them. But I stopped heading down that path as I considered what he would have to gain as a demon by making this play. Which is basically where I changed gears and posted #371 saying that I are pretty confident that Saldana was on the up and up.

For what it is worth, Saldana was not in any kind of trust zone for me before that - I probably had him in lower third, although obviously subject to all kinds of movement since trust (particularly early trust) in this game is so fluid.

I think it would be a very sophisticated play to be a demon and fake the bard role with significant holes in the story. The demons should have a fairly good accounting of what took place last night between their PMs and CW's post. If they were going to fake a role today, when they don't really have to, I think their alibi would be pretty air-tight.

But, like you I am trying to understand the follow-through on WVUFan. The votes are starting to collect on him and I don't think there is a preponderance of evidence at the moment. Doesn't mean WVU isn't a demon, just means I want to understand the movement.

Gram, I concur with several of the others that a elemental bard would be pretty imbalanced - would take 3 attempts to kill by night, 2 attempts to kill by day. Plus have the power to kill one. Very over-the-top powerful, at least from my view.

The couple reasons i still have quite ingrained involve WVU being a good villager role...there was a fight, with swords and all that, and saldanas bard role doesnt fit with the fight description...wvu isnt around to reply, but right now im honestly wondering if WVU isnt the bodyguard or witness or something...a role where the wolves know him and he knows the wolves...it would then make sense for saldana to make up a bard role(instead of claiming to be a bodyguard role since someone else for sure has it) and try to get WVU killed...especially if he is bodyguard...id reckon this happened, so follow with me for a bit:

WVU is the bodyguard, and protected himself on night 1 like almost all bodyguards...saldana accused him during the day, and did the night kill on wvu to finsish off someone who played a wonderful game last time and could be a secret villager role this time...nobody would link saldana to it, since he thought wvu was a wolf and wvu thought i was a wolf...if anything it would link me. He shows up but wvu is ready for him and they fight to a draw. Saldana knows he attacked WVU(or st cronin and wvu was protecting him)...now that saldana knows the bodyguard hes going to try and get him killed...

Takes some liberties, but it makes more sense to me then saldanas play

[Poli]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Vote AE

My votes count for 500.

Your vote doesn't count. It's not in bold.

[dacman]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

Your vote doesn't count. It's not in bold.

pwnd

[SnDvls]

dacman
since I see you are around now. any insight into this WVU-Saldana thing?

unvote dacman

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

The couple reasons i still have quite ingrained involve WVU being a good villager role...there was a fight, with swords and all that, and saldanas bard role doesnt fit with the fight description...wvu isnt around to reply, but right now im honestly wondering if WVU isnt the bodyguard or witness or something...a role where the wolves know him and he knows the wolves...it would then make sense for saldana to make up a bard role(instead of claiming to be a bodyguard role since someone else for sure has it) and try to get WVU killed...especially if he is bodyguard...id reckon this happened, so follow with me for a bit:

WVU is the bodyguard, and protected himself on night 1 like almost all bodyguards...saldana accused him during the day, and did the night kill on wvu to finsish off someone who played a wonderful game last time and could be a secret villager role this time...nobody would link saldana to it, since he thought wvu was a wolf and wvu thought i was a wolf...if anything it would link me. He shows up but wvu is ready for him and they fight to a draw. Saldana knows he attacked WVU(or st cronin and wvu was protecting him)...now that saldana knows the bodyguard hes going to try and get him killed...

Takes some liberties, but it makes more sense to me then saldanas play

I just don't see how saldana's play makes any sense for a demon; dubbs play in the last game made sense, because the numbers were in his favor. Isn't it too early in the game, though, for the demons to be pulling a fake reveal? If it turns out that WVUfan is innocent, then saldana goes to #1 suspect in most peoples eyes.

One thing I do find disquieting about saldana's reveal is that it is so very, very vague, giving him an out no matter what is true and what transpires.

[dacman]

My gut tells me saldana is lying. My head tells me he doesn't have a good reason to lie. I'm having a really hard time deciding which way to go.

I will say it seems to me some people are trying to make reads based on who voted for who. That rarely leads to anything significant when doing it so early. We are voting nearly blind right now. The lack of concrete info in this particular game makes that doubly true. I'm not going to vote based on prior voting patterns yet so I really have no other candidates at this point.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I just don't see how saldana's play makes any sense for a demon; dubbs play in the last game made sense, because the numbers were in his favor. Isn't it too early in the game, though, for the demons to be pulling a fake reveal? If it turns out that WVUfan is innocent, then saldana goes to #1 suspect in most peoples eyes.

One thing I do find disquieting about saldana's reveal is that it is so very, very vague, giving him an out no matter what is true and what transpires.

The whole point is if WVu spotted him(like a witness role)...if he didnt make this move, WVU would call him out and he would die...if WVU spotted him, hes going to die today or tomorrow...his move ensures its not today, and by not flat out saying it was WVU he can fall back on that when WVU is good and say, oh...that was just my best guess...if a wolf is spotted by witness, what does he do...he tries to get the witness killed before he dies...thats what i think is happening here, but with what WVU role im not sure

[Poli]

Blade, that's some good thinking there. Hmmmmm.

[path12]

Has anyone noticed WVU here today at all? I'm very interested in what he has to say at this point.

[Poli]

And to be honest, I've thought of this myself. I still don't see proof that the demons gained favor last night...so I don't see how the elementals would be involved at all.

[saldana]

i will try one last time to explain why i am pushing on WVU.....I DONT HAVE ANY EVIDENCE...I should have gotten some last night when they tried to kill me but was prevented from getting it by what i believe to be elemental favor. I dont have anything concrete, just the same suspicions i started with and the belief that he is still a new enough player (and assumedly doesnt have the kind of coach he had in Barkeep that helped him play such a great game last time) that he could have fallen for my trap. Blade you seem to be ignoring that point, that i intentionally drew attention to myself before the night action...and i am enjoying the fact that when your story (totally made up to fit what you want it to be) has holes it in, you can jump them, but when my story has a hole in it because i didnt include something in my initial post, that makes me a demon.

As far as Dacman's statement goes, what purpose does lying at this point serve me if i am a demon...if WVU goes down tonight, i follow close behind tommorow whether i am human or not, i die just for being wrong if he is a human, because no one will believe me (understandably) if i am wrong. so do you really think if i were a demon, i would make a 1 for 1 trade on day 2? that basically might be the worst idea the bad guys ever had in one of these games.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by path12

Has anyone noticed WVU here today at all? I'm very interested in what he has to say at this point.

The other reason i think hes good...last game, when he was a wolf, he was also very quiet....but i always saw him in thread(he was always around it seemed)....this time hes not around at all, which makes me think hes not a wolf.

[saldana]

dola, i am out again, i will try to stay up to date while at work, but depending on how busy the day was i may be too busy.

[Passacaglia]

It seems like a statement from WVUFAN would clear up a lot of this. Blade has some good reasoning, and saldana's case is helped by the fact that WVUFAN isn't here to defend himself. And I smell a rat. I thought it was pretty obvious that our sacrifice got favor, not the wolves. I don't understand how the wolves could have gotten favor.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by saldana

i will try one last time to explain why i am pushing on WVU.....I DONT HAVE ANY EVIDENCE...I should have gotten some last night when they tried to kill me but was prevented from getting it by what i believe to be elemental favor. I dont have anything concrete, just the same suspicions i started with and the belief that he is still a new enough player (and assumedly doesnt have the kind of coach he had in Barkeep that helped him play such a great game last time) that he could have fallen for my trap. Blade you seem to be ignoring that point, that i intentionally drew attention to myself before the night action...and i am enjoying the fact that when your story (totally made up to fit what you want it to be) has holes it in, you can jump them, but when my story has a hole in it because i didnt include something in my initial post, that makes me a demon.

As far as Dacman's statement goes, what purpose does lying at this point serve me if i am a demon...if WVU goes down tonight, i follow close behind tommorow whether i am human or not, i die just for being wrong if he is a human, because no one will believe me (understandably) if i am wrong. so do you really think if i were a demon, i would make a 1 for 1 trade on day 2? that basically might be the worst idea the bad guys ever had in one of these games.

He isnt around, but i think he will come and and have something to say about you...lying serves you perfectly if your a demon and WVU knows it...you would have to lie to get him killed and not yourself, and your post right here further backs up that your setting it up so you dont look bad when hes a villager...your saying you just guess him so dont look at me when he dies and is good. Convenient since secret roles arent revealed upon your death, no?

[Poli]

Let's play this out:

Saldana, a demon, tries to kill WVU, a blessed villager.
Saldana, knowing WVU saw him, assumes WVU's role, since he beat him to the punch (post).
WVU dies a villager due to the lynch.
Someone else dies to the demons tonight.
Maybe saldana is lynched the next day, maybe not, because "he has no concrete evidence" it is WVU.

[Poli]

Saldana tells the truth:
Saldana, the blessed, doesn't know who attacks him.
WVU, with "no evidence" dies tonight a villager or demon, or perhaps becomes human (didn't think of that before).
Someone else dies to the demons tonight.
Maybe saldana is lynched, maybe not...again, "no concrete evidence" for WVU.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Skewered across a blood-inscribed pentagram is the rotting carcass of a Goat. While it is not nearly as awe-inspiring as the might of the Yak, the potent Goat-esqueness of the offering cannot be ignored. But, while mere mortals could be impressed by this, were the elementals?

Re-reading this, maybe I was wrong in my initial thinking that we had to get favor, and the wolves didn't.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

Let's play this out:

Saldana, a demon, tries to kill WVU, a blessed villager.
Saldana, knowing WVU saw him, assumes WVU's role, since he beat him to the punch (post).
WVU dies a villager due to the lynch.
Someone else dies to the demons tonight.
Maybe saldana is lynched the next day, maybe not, because "he has no concrete evidence" it is WVU.

This makes a certain amount of sense, I'll have to look at saldana's original post again.

[SnDvls]

some tough pushing right for a simple 1:1.

remember back a few games when I was a baddie. I was witnessed on the convert on night 1 and the witness came out right away to get the bandwagon rolling on me as he saw me do it. I fought as hard as I could to discredit the witness because I knew he saw me and I knew who he was. If I remember right without finding the WW game. I also waited a little bit before I came in to try and discredit the witness after getting some advice from my wolve brothers. I had converted Raiders and tried to use the line that it was the witness who was converted and I saw him converted, but didn't see the attacker. Take this for what it's worth, but it's a desprate move for a simple 1:1 if that is what it is.

[Poli]

My theory is saldana may be a demon. If WVU were a demon or elemental, I'd guess he'd have a few people (demons or elementals) backing him up, and from what I've read, he doesn't. Simply casting doubt on saldana or trying to sway the vote elsewhere would work, I'd think.

The only people backing WVU, or for that matter casting doubt on saldana, are me and blade. I know I'm a villager, I don't know about blade.

I don't believe that the demons had the favor(tm). The "evidence" from CW's posts don't suggest they did. I'd buy that we had the favor the first day/night...and that no one has the favor(tm) today, but not the demons.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Re-reading this, maybe I was wrong in my initial thinking that we had to get favor, and the wolves didn't.

I'd have to think we did get the favor. Not as awe inspiring makes me think we got it.

[st.cronin]

dola

I honestly can't make any sense of saldana's story. I think now that he is telling the truth, but is somehow mistaken in what happened.

so, for now ...

UNVOTE WVUFAN

[Poli]

Perhaps...perhaps this is what happened:

Humans got the favor(tm)
Elementals stop the demons night action
Saldana escapes, but without evidence

I don't know, maybe.

[Poli]

4 bells, WVU, arriving.

Where's the popcorn?

[Blade6119]

now we get somewhere, be it good or bad...time for the show lol

[st.cronin]

*pulls up a chair*

[Poli]

All we need is a Scmidty or RA "..." and we'd have a perfect situation on our hands.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

I'd have to think we did get the favor. Not as awe inspiring makes me think we got it.

So do you think saldana is lying? That seems to be the only thing that sways me one way or the other. Everything else is semantics (talk or battle, etc.) and a case of one's word against the other. Of course, now that WVU is in the building, maybe more stuff will go down.

[path12]

WVU, you have the floor, sir.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

So do you think saldana is lying? That seems to be the only thing that sways me one way or the other. Everything else is semantics (talk or battle, etc.) and a case of one's word against the other. Of course, now that WVU is in the building, maybe more stuff will go down.

My guess, yes. I think he's lying.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by path12

WVU, you have the floor, sir.

he might need to catch up on the reading first.

[Blade6119]

so, while we wait for him to catch up, anyone got exciting new years plans?

[Poli]

Something with my wife and a few of her friends in St. Louis.

More exciting? I have to go to Wal Mart soon.

Yip.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by saldana

dola, i am out again, i will try to stay up to date while at work, but depending on how busy the day was i may be too busy.

your still here, and its half an hour later...you havent left once...thats somewhat odd to say your leaving then not leave at a time like this

[path12]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

so, while we wait for him to catch up, anyone got exciting new years plans?

The gf and I are heading to Vancouver BC in the morning for the New Years, don't know if it's exciting, but I do love that city.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

so, while we wait for him to catch up, anyone got exciting new years plans?

with a one year old the excitement ends @ 8 for her and well that means we stay home for the countdown...ah Dick or Regis this year?

[SnDvls]

where did they go?

[st.cronin]

new years = lamest holiday on the calendar

I usually turn in around 10. My girlfriend is scheduled to work til 11 that night, so I'll go pick her up, take her home, and tuck us in.