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Old 11-20-2019, 09:24 PM   #1001
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You'd have a point if women weren't consistently paid less when they do the same jobs.

Every study I've looked for that actually shows wages adjusted for position, experience, etc, shows this is false.
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Old 11-20-2019, 09:43 PM   #1002
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Yang with the line of the night.

Corey Booker "hold me beer"
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Old 11-20-2019, 09:46 PM   #1003
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The look on Booker's face when Biden said he supports legalization...
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Old 11-20-2019, 09:47 PM   #1004
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The look on Booker's face when Biden said he supports legalization...

My kids would recognize that look from me when they say they brushed their teeth
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Old 11-20-2019, 10:23 PM   #1005
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FWIW

Gender pay gap in the United States - Wikipedia
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The average woman's unadjusted annual salary has been cited as 78%[2] to 82%[3] of that of the average man's. However, after adjusting for choices made by male and female workers in college major, occupation, working hours and parental leave, multiple studies find that pay rates between men and women varied by 5–6.6% or, women earning 94 cents to every dollar earned by their male counterparts. The remaining 6% of the gap has been speculated to originate from other unmeasured differences, a greater value placed on non-wage benefits, gender discrimination and a difference in willingness and/or skills to negotiate salaries.[4][5][6]
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Old 11-20-2019, 11:00 PM   #1006
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The average pay raise in the us is 3% and I would certainly consider a 6% difference significant, ymmv.
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Old 11-20-2019, 11:23 PM   #1007
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Gender Pay Gap Statistics for 2019 | PayScale

Lot more data there. And yes, those numbers SHOULD be one to one. But they're much, much closer than that ridiculous 80% line that gets tossed around all the time.
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Old 11-21-2019, 12:50 AM   #1008
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I think the 'controlled' figure is certainly worth considering, and perhaps even carries more weight than the raw, uncontrolled number, but you can't just throw that raw number out.

If men are getting paid 26% more than women on average, but that difference is only 2% when comparing folks with the same job and experience then that necessarily suggests that there are millions of women working extremely low paying positions that don't employ men (or conversely that all the highest paying jobs go to men), or they have a collective experience gap when compared to men, all of which could just as easily be attributed to cultural bias as the gap in salary. In CW's article it is referred to as the 'opportunity gap'.
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Old 11-21-2019, 08:06 AM   #1009
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I think the 'controlled' figure is certainly worth considering, and perhaps even carries more weight than the raw, uncontrolled number, but you can't just throw that raw number out.

We disagree on the value of the raw number, but...

Want to make that raw number go way way way WAY up? Pay teachers (a massively women dominated field) appropriately.
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Old 11-21-2019, 10:15 AM   #1010
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Like teaching, I think of nursing as still being pretty female dominated. I also imagine there's a whole tier of practically invisible, much lower paying jobs, but I dunno how true that is.....when was the last (or first?) time you've ever seen a man working hotel housecleaning, or in a nail salon, for example?

As for the significance of the raw numbers, if most women with the same amount of experience are making 98% of their male colleagues, but the raw wage gap is still at 76% doesn't that suggest that for every single woman making 98% of her male colleague's wages there is another woman making 50% less than the average man (or that the number of women with comparable positions & experience is so low that it has made practically no dent in the raw numbers)?
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Old 11-21-2019, 10:22 AM   #1011
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Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord View Post
We disagree on the value of the raw number, but...

Want to make that raw number go way way way WAY up? Pay teachers (a massively women dominated field) appropriately.

And home healthcare workers.
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Old 11-21-2019, 01:00 PM   #1012
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As for the significance of the raw numbers, if most women with the same amount of experience are making 98% of their male colleagues, but the raw wage gap is still at 76% doesn't that suggest that for every single woman making 98% of her male colleague's wages there is another woman making 50% less than the average man (or that the number of women with comparable positions & experience is so low that it has made practically no dent in the raw numbers)?
IMO, a big piece of the difference are women who make the decision to quit working for a period of years to raise kids. That said, there are some women dominated professions (teaching, nursing, housekeeping) that are underpaid. But men are also underpaid in those professions, so I'm not sure what can be done there. Maybe as time goes on and more dads decide to stay at home, this gap will start to decrease.
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Old 11-21-2019, 01:36 PM   #1013
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We disagree on the value of the raw number, but...

Want to make that raw number go way way way WAY up? Pay teachers (a massively women dominated field) appropriately.

What exactly, is "appropriate"?
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Old 11-21-2019, 01:44 PM   #1014
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IMO, a big piece of the difference are women who make the decision to quit working for a period of years to raise kids.

That's a societal pressure though. One of the issues with the "adjusting for choices" numbers is that for a long time (and still somewhat to this day), it's the woman who is expected to leave work early if the kid is sick; it's the woman who is supposed to take extra time off to raise the kids. Some other countries deal with this a bit differently - one is providing or subsidizing child care which lessens the pressure to stay at home or take a longer maternity leave.
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Old 11-21-2019, 01:50 PM   #1015
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I agree, but there are also a large portion of women who enjoy raising kids. Part of that is society telling them that's how it should be and part of that is experiences with their own mother. I don't know that we will ever completely eradicate that from our society (which isn't a bad thing). I also think you will see more dad's make the decision to stay home with their kids (also not a bad thing).

I think we are in a very competitive job market and there is really no reason for a woman to be underpaid in many professions (hence the 2% diff). But, until women stop making the decision to stay home and raise kids, there will always be that delta.

Honestly, I think many women will continue to make that decision for a long time going forward. And I think it is just as damaging to tell them that forgoing their career is a bad decisions to raise kids, just as bad as it was 20 years ago to tell them they should always quit their career to raise kids. Each woman has what is important to them and being shamed because they quit their career (and then earn less money later) isn't fair to them if they value raising their kids more.
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Old 11-21-2019, 01:59 PM   #1016
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I will say for every woman who wants to stay home and raise kids, there are far more that want the men to do more in the raising of kids or domestic housework. Slowly more men are staying home or doing more, but that's a big part of the difference as well.
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Old 11-21-2019, 02:14 PM   #1017
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I think the nursing field is a good example of how the 'controlled' number can be skewed. Woman and men who were interested in healthcare have been culturally encouraged to take entirely different routes. For most of America's history women in healthcare were told to take nursing jobs, do most of the work, and get paid less than the male doctors. That difference isn't going to show up in the 'controlled' number because the industy has practically been segregated.
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Old 11-21-2019, 09:09 PM   #1018
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FWIW, I think Yang and Buttigieg have improved dramatically over the course of these debates. I don't see either having much of a chance this time around, but Buttigieg in particular will be one to watch in the future.

This still comes down to Biden, Warren, or Sanders. Warren seems to have plateaued. Biden is Biden. He's out of touch in some areas, but connects well with voters and is going to make some horrible gaffes when he speaks. Bernie just seems to spend each debate reminding everyone he's Bernie.

Klobuchar did well last night but I don't see her gaining traction.

Booker is just consistently solid and overlooked.
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Old 11-21-2019, 09:15 PM   #1019
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FWIW, I think Yang and Buttigieg have improved dramatically over the course of these debates. I don't see either having much of a chance this time around, but Buttigieg in particular will be one to watch in the future.

This still comes down to Biden, Warren, or Sanders. Warren seems to have plateaued. Biden is Biden. He's out of touch in some areas, but connects well with voters and is going to make some horrible gaffes when he speaks. Bernie just seems to spend each debate reminding everyone he's Bernie.

Klobuchar did well last night but I don't see her gaining traction.

Booker is just consistently solid and overlooked.


Booker is still my favorite. He has a lot of support as a #2, the problem is that everyone's number #1's are still leading him. I still think he could make some progress in this race. Yang is moving up in my book as well.
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Old 11-21-2019, 09:30 PM   #1020
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Buttigieg desperately needs a cabinet level job to boost his profile. There may not be any race in Indiana that he can win other than mayor, and I don't think that's ever going to be good enough.
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Old 11-21-2019, 09:47 PM   #1021
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I don't agree with Pete on everything, but you know what? He's from my generation, and that puts him ahead of the oldsters. Bernie and Liz Have Plans. Cool. They can shape the legislation, Pete can sign it, and the boomers can fuck right off into political retirement as far as the White House goes.
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Old 11-21-2019, 10:36 PM   #1022
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I don't agree with Pete on everything, but you know what? He's from my generation, and that puts him ahead of the oldsters. Bernie and Liz Have Plans. Cool. They can shape the legislation, Pete can sign it, and the boomers can fuck right off into political retirement as far as the White House goes.

Boomers vs Snowflakes.

BTW, "ok, boomer" is hurtful to many and some say "the n-word of ageism"

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Old 11-21-2019, 10:42 PM   #1023
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Heard a snippet from Yang about being in birthplace of MLK and that MLK was fighting for a "universal income". I didn't know this but sure enough ...

https://www.theatlantic.com/business...ricans/279147/
Quote:
So what, exactly, was King's economic dream? In short, he wanted the government to eradicate poverty by providing every American a guaranteed, middle-class income—an idea that, while light-years beyond the realm of mainstream political conversation today, had actually come into vogue by the late 1960s.

To be crystal clear, a guaranteed income—or a universal basic income, as it's sometimes called today—is not the same as a higher minimum wage. Instead, it's a policy designed to make sure each American has a certain concrete sum of money to spend each year. One modern version of the policy would give every adult a tax credit that would essentially become a cash payment for families that don't pay much tax. Conservative thinker Charles Murray has advocated replacing the whole welfare state by handing every grown American a full $10,000.

So went to Yang's website. Hey, everyone gets $1,000 per month not just the absolute needy. Have to pay more attention to this guy!
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Old 11-21-2019, 10:47 PM   #1024
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Boomers = Snowflakes.



exactly
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Old 11-21-2019, 11:02 PM   #1025
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exactly

Definitely a bigot and prejudice aren't you?
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Old 11-21-2019, 11:07 PM   #1026
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Definitely a bigot and prejudice aren't you?


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Old 11-21-2019, 11:29 PM   #1027
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Meh. Kinda hard to muster up sympathy for the boomer generation on the topic of ageism.
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Old 11-22-2019, 06:24 AM   #1028
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Boomers vs Snowflakes.

BTW, "ok, boomer" is hurtful to many and some say "the n-word of ageism"


Yeah, it is hurtful and that's the fucking point. They've built an entire party around being against minorities and "outrage culture" etc., so they can fuck off with being offended by jack shit
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Old 11-22-2019, 06:29 AM   #1029
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Yeah, it is hurtful and that's the fucking point. They've built an entire party around being against minorities and "outrage culture" etc., so they can fuck off with being offended by jack shit

Just so I understand your point, so "they" is the vast majority, majority, or powerful minority? Would like to know the breadth of your (and others) condemnation.
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Old 11-22-2019, 07:54 AM   #1030
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Boomers vs Snowflakes.

BTW, "ok, boomer" is hurtful to many and some say "the n-word of ageism"

As John Mulaney has said, if you can't say one of the words, they aren't the same.
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Old 11-22-2019, 09:02 AM   #1031
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It's rich for Boomers to be offended when "Ok, Boomer" is a clapback to a multitude of sneers at Millennials. Suck it up snowflakes.

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Old 11-22-2019, 09:11 AM   #1032
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This could turn out to be a very interesting discussion top. Clash of the ages.

I'll setup another thread so not to hijack this worthy thread.
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Old 11-22-2019, 03:54 PM   #1033
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Boomers vs Snowflakes.

BTW, "ok, boomer" is hurtful to many and some say "the n-word of ageism"

Not even a little bit. That word has been around for at least a generation and it's only just now that millennials are pushing back that boomers are going WAHHH AGEISM YOU'RE CALLING US N-WORDS.

Ha. No. Fuck off.

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It's rich for Boomers to be offended when "Ok, Boomer" is a clapback to a multitude of sneers at Millennials. Suck it up snowflakes.

Millennials can't do this, millennials are killing that, millennials are participation trophy snowflakes who - ok, boomer - OH MY GOD AGEISTS ITS AS BAD AS THE N-WORD.

Ha. No. Fuck off.
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Old 11-23-2019, 03:09 PM   #1034
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I guess when we one day try to sort out whose dignity suffered the most from this era, perhaps the religious conservatives will be judged most harshly. Judges, though, I know. Quite the price to pay, however.

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Old 11-23-2019, 03:23 PM   #1035
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I met Franklin Graham 20+ years ago. I was a fan of Billy, but at the time had never heard of Franklin, so he was a completely blank slate to me. My impression at the time was "Sheesh. Billy Graham's son seems like kind of a turd." These last three years have made me feel good about the level of discernment I had when I was in my 20s.
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Old 11-23-2019, 03:35 PM   #1036
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Time to end tax breaks for churches. I truly believe that. He didn't actually say that opponents of trump were demonic, he said "it's almost like a demonic force", then the host said, no it is demonic. So the host was leading the point.



Either way. End the tax breaks for churches. That ends tax breaks for leadership taking salaries in the name of religion, and it, at the very least, puts a bump in the road for all the televangelists, and businesses that operate on donations, "in order to spread the word of god".



I can think of a lot better reasons to give tax breaks and spend donations.
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Old 11-23-2019, 03:55 PM   #1037
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Time to end tax breaks for churches. I truly believe that. He didn't actually say that opponents of trump were demonic, he said "it's almost like a demonic force", then the host said, no it is demonic. So the host was leading the point.

Either way. End the tax breaks for churches. That ends tax breaks for leadership taking salaries in the name of religion, and it, at the very least, puts a bump in the road for all the televangelists, and businesses that operate on donations, "in order to spread the word of god".

I can think of a lot better reasons to give tax breaks and spend donations.

Wasn't tax breaks for religious institutions so there is a separation of church and state?

I would prefer a law (or if it already exists, an enforcement of it) that says if you are a religious institution, or leader of one etc. and you talk politics, then we can withdraw your special status.
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Old 11-24-2019, 09:11 AM   #1038
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Kate McKinnon & Larry David are so good as Warren & Sanders that I want to vote for them just to see them for the next 4 years!
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Old 11-24-2019, 09:58 AM   #1039
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Bloomberg and his money are in

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/202...l-bid-n1090216
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Old 11-24-2019, 10:04 AM   #1040
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Most churches aren't massive cash machines. The donations at my dad's church went to to keep the facility running and for community programs. It was essentially a charity except they talked about God. So a tax would essentially be a penalty for talking about God.

In turn, a lot of community rehab and treatment facilities resemble churches in a lot of ways. They talk about God, there's religious services. But their most direct mission is addiction treatment. Should they pay a god tax? What if they, or a church, keep the god part vague enough where it's more about broader spiritual enlightenment?

Today my father is 80 and still preaches around Sunday at various rural New England churches that don't have full time pastors. It's a much different version of church and Christianity that you hear about in these big churches.

I think there's pastors that embezzle and enrich themselves, but I don't think that's a tax exemption issue. But even when a church allowed a pastor to make a decent living (which is getting rarer and rarer), it's done through voluntary contributions from members who have already paid taxes on that income.

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Old 11-24-2019, 10:39 AM   #1041
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Wasn't tax breaks for religious institutions so there is a separation of church and state?

I would prefer a law (or if it already exists, an enforcement of it) that says if you are a religious institution, or leader of one etc. and you talk politics, then we can withdraw your special status.


No, that is what supporters of it would say, but that is not entirely accurate. The original concept for allowing tax breaks for churches was because they were providing services to people that the government didn't have to, and that was a way of providing some reciprocity.



To your second point, that is already the letter of the law. However, it isn't enforced, and in fact, trump created an executive order basically stopping anyone under him from enforcing it, even though it wasn't being enforced anyway. The SC ruled that there is no law or protection for or against freedom from taxation for churches and religious groups. It's solely at the discretion of the government.
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Old 11-24-2019, 03:12 PM   #1042
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Churches don't pay corporate income taxes because they are non-profit organizations. Same reason the ACLU or NRA (among many others) don't pay corporate income taxes. The individual pastors, of course, pay personal income taxes.

Churches don't pay property taxes due to separation.

I'll echo molson - the vast majority of churches don't make money. At best they break even or if they take in more than they spend that money goes toward fixing up aging buildings. Of course even with that churches are closing at a very quick rate and are having problems paying full time pastors.

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Old 11-24-2019, 09:47 PM   #1043
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Time to end tax breaks for churches. I truly believe that.

I can think of a lot better reasons to give tax breaks and spend donations.

I just happened to see this as I was browsing the site tonight and I sort of felt compelled to say just what a bad take this is.

I don't know much about how things are in other faiths other than my own but my brother in law is a priest in a diocese. His "salary" is barely enough to be called that and he has to pay income taxes like everyone else and he's certainly not being paid so little just so the parish can sit on a fat stack of cash. The rectory where he lives...they had a microwave that legitimately took minutes to heat up anything. Now most of us would just go on Amazon, ordered a new one and be done with it but their pastor had decided it wasn't the best use of the limited funds they have to replace it (so we bought one and donated it).

Think of what it costs to heat, light, take care of these churches - many of which are VERY old and certainly do not have the latest in energy efficient anything. Our church takes up an extra collection once a month to help families who are struggling to pay the tuition at the school. You really want to tax them for that?

You might not care for organized religion or be cynical about churches and that's your choice but that doesn't mean that they don't provide an important service to millions of other people. That parish priest doesn't get to say "no, I can't come to the hospital tonight because it's after five o'clock". He doesn't get to call in sick for a wedding because he wanted to go to opening day or tell a family he can't perform a funeral because that's supposed to be his day off. And how much does the church take in for these things? Nothing. You might be paying $20 per day to have TV in your hospital room and a few hundred dollars an hour to stay there but you don't get a bill from the church later on because you asked a priest to come and pray for your sick loved one.

There are so many churches that barely take in enough to keep things up and I have to think its the same in other faiths. If you decide to tax them that will be the end of many of them. How will they replace that money? You going to have a monthly membership fee to attend a church? Just expect the members of the church to come up with more out of their own pockets to cover the expenses that will not be met? It's not a fitness center and people have limited means to what they can give.

It doesn't cost you anything for a church to exist. Your property taxes aren't going to support it. Why should you be against what they mean for so many other people just because it doesn't mean that for you? You can say that's not how you feel but it really would ring hollow when you know that forcing them to pay taxes would be the end for so many of them.
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Old 11-24-2019, 10:38 PM   #1044
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Originally Posted by Gary Gorski View Post
I just happened to see this as I was browsing the site tonight and I sort of felt compelled to say just what a bad take this is.

I don't know much about how things are in other faiths other than my own but my brother in law is a priest in a diocese. His "salary" is barely enough to be called that and he has to pay income taxes like everyone else and he's certainly not being paid so little just so the parish can sit on a fat stack of cash. The rectory where he lives...they had a microwave that legitimately took minutes to heat up anything. Now most of us would just go on Amazon, ordered a new one and be done with it but their pastor had decided it wasn't the best use of the limited funds they have to replace it (so we bought one and donated it).

Think of what it costs to heat, light, take care of these churches - many of which are VERY old and certainly do not have the latest in energy efficient anything. Our church takes up an extra collection once a month to help families who are struggling to pay the tuition at the school. You really want to tax them for that?

You might not care for organized religion or be cynical about churches and that's your choice but that doesn't mean that they don't provide an important service to millions of other people. That parish priest doesn't get to say "no, I can't come to the hospital tonight because it's after five o'clock". He doesn't get to call in sick for a wedding because he wanted to go to opening day or tell a family he can't perform a funeral because that's supposed to be his day off. And how much does the church take in for these things? Nothing. You might be paying $20 per day to have TV in your hospital room and a few hundred dollars an hour to stay there but you don't get a bill from the church later on because you asked a priest to come and pray for your sick loved one.

There are so many churches that barely take in enough to keep things up and I have to think its the same in other faiths. If you decide to tax them that will be the end of many of them. How will they replace that money? You going to have a monthly membership fee to attend a church? Just expect the members of the church to come up with more out of their own pockets to cover the expenses that will not be met? It's not a fitness center and people have limited means to what they can give.

It doesn't cost you anything for a church to exist. Your property taxes aren't going to support it. Why should you be against what they mean for so many other people just because it doesn't mean that for you? You can say that's not how you feel but it really would ring hollow when you know that forcing them to pay taxes would be the end for so many of them.


There are massive number of companies and organizations that provide an important service for millions and still pay taxes. That's not a very good argument.

There's also no reason a small church that actually follows its 501c3 guidelines against political campaigning shouldn't continue to be tax exempt. However any political lobbying, donations, or campaigning should result in an immediate revocation of that congregation's tax exempt status.

Mega churches absolutely should be taxed regardless of the service they provide. When you're flying around on your own personal private jet paid for by your congregation you shouldn't be tax exempt.
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Old 11-24-2019, 10:43 PM   #1045
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And yet, there has to be some recognition that there are plenty of churches, take Scientology as a great example, that serve very little purpose other than to be a shelter for money. A shelter for members who donate, and a shelter for those who run it.



There are so many churches that take in millions and millions and they are the ones that the other churches should be concerned about. It's become a profitable industry and they become the most visible examples of the religion. It's actually a blight on the service that other provide.



So many smaller churches are going to end up closing anyway. So many of them are going to lose their support. I'm sure there's a more reasonable solution. A system that has no threshold for participation can't be a good system. Money donated isn't necessarily money taxed with the donations being tax deductible for donors.



I know it's a much more complicated situation, however, if feels like there are enough bad actors, theft, fraud etc and for nothing in exchange that it should be reevaluated. Then you throw in that politics and church are closer than they have ever been here. The current president (and vice) would remove all barriers to separation if they could. I don't see the no tax argument being the magic pill that keeps them apart. Not when they are actively involved politically.
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Old 11-25-2019, 03:00 AM   #1046
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Originally Posted by Edward64 View Post
Wasn't tax breaks for religious institutions so there is a separation of church and state?

There are various reasons, but one that the Supreme Court gave (in an unrelated case, but it's the same principle): "the power to tax involves the power to destroy."

So, in principle, I'm okay with churches being exempt from taxes...right up until the point where churches get involved in politics.

"B-b-but First Amendment" is bullshit when one religion holds so much sway over society that its involvement in politics could render harm to people of another faith.

The government cannot prefer one faith over another, and when you start courting political speech and cash money from a particular faith, you essentially confer government favor on that faith.

Tax breaks? Cool. Church wants to use the money it accrues by not having to pay taxes to get involved in politics? That's a no from me.
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Old 11-25-2019, 10:05 AM   #1047
ISiddiqui
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Originally Posted by Atocep View Post
There's also no reason a small church that actually follows its 501c3 guidelines against political campaigning shouldn't continue to be tax exempt. However any political lobbying, donations, or campaigning should result in an immediate revocation of that congregation's tax exempt status.

501(c)(3)'s are allowed to lobby on behalf of specific legislation (up to a certain percentage of its annual expenditures). They are not allowed to campaign for a particular candidate.

For example, the American Cancer Society, a 501(c)(3), lobbies on behalf of cancer research. The ASPCA lobbies on behalf of animal cruelty statutes.
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Old 11-25-2019, 10:38 AM   #1048
Ben E Lou
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This is far more complex than "I'm mad because this mega-church pastor flies around in a jet, so let's punish all churches." Even punishing all "megachurches" would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. The 10,000-member whorehouse I belonged to down in the Lowcountry, for example, puts a ton of resources into reducing crime in an area that--before the church got involved--was one of the most crime-infested in the country, provides free health and dental care to the uninsured, has a huge free food pantry, will feed thousands (little over 4,000 last year) of poor and homeless people on Thanksgiving for the 12th-ish year in a row, and I could go on and on. It's fair to say that hurting that church financially would do serious damage to vulnerable people groups in that area.


Punish the people who break the rules.
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Old 11-25-2019, 11:10 AM   #1049
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Originally Posted by Ben E Lou View Post
This is far more complex than "I'm mad because this mega-church pastor flies around in a jet, so let's punish all churches." Even punishing all "megachurches" would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. The 10,000-member whorehouse I belonged to down in the Lowcountry, for example, puts a ton of resources into reducing crime in an area that--before the church got involved--was one of the most crime-infested in the country, provides free health and dental care to the uninsured, has a huge free food pantry, will feed thousands (little over 4,000 last year) of poor and homeless people on Thanksgiving for the 12th-ish year in a row, and I could go on and on. It's fair to say that hurting that church financially would do serious damage to vulnerable people groups in that area.


Punish the people who break the rules.

Specifically going back to the mega church pastors that fly around in private jets, they are breaking the rules. The IRS requires compensation for non profit executives to be reasonable and private jets are not a job requirement and therefore should be considered part of their pay.

For the mega churches that are actually run like a non-profit, that's great. They're playing within the rules. However, those that aren't should be punished whether they're saving those within a community or not.
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Old 11-25-2019, 05:05 PM   #1050
molson
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Originally Posted by SackAttack View Post
So, in principle, I'm okay with churches being exempt from taxes...right up until the point where churches get involved in politics.


Do you consider the ACLU, Planned Parenthood, etc, as being "involved in politics?" Wherever the line is drawn, do you think it should be the same for those organizations as churches?

I'm trying to figure out if we're talking about organizations endorsing candidates and starting political parties, or if it's just speech and expressing positions that could resemble political opinions (which I think is pretty impossible to avoid if the non-profit has any purpose at all).

Last edited by molson : 11-25-2019 at 05:10 PM.
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