2017 NBA Offseason Thread

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Atocep

76ers say no rather easily.

Yeah, probably too much, especially considering POR moved up with just two lottery picks.

Still, if I'm the Sixers, I really consider consolidating some assets for Monk. Fultz, Monk, Covington, Simmons and Embiid would be such a fun starting five.

[Atocep]

Surprised Kennard went before Adebayo

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Proposal of Saric, Okafor and the 2018 Lakers pick (with Boston protections) to Kings for 10th overall to take Monk. Who says no?

Way too much for the 76ers to give up for Monk.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Surprised Kennard went before Adebayo

I'm surprised they're both lottery picks.

But I might be biased against Duke players with questionable arhleticism and KY players with very raw skillsets.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Surprised Kennard went before Adebayo

Really surprised DJ Wilson went ahead of TJ Leaf, John Collins, OG Anunoby, Harry Giles, & even Jawun Evans. The last 3 in particular are guys I'd love to get with a pick around 20.... Heck, I'd consider trading Avery Bradley for Giles or Anunoby since we need to clear a little cap space and assume we won't extend AB.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Bulls needed to rebuild and reload.

Bulls haven't been able to develop young talent since Thibs left. How are they going to rebuild?

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Bulls haven't been able to develop young talent since Thibs left. How are they going to rebuild?

By getting young players with upside for a start. If their development has been so bad they probably need some different coaching as well. I guess at some point they had to try and rebuild or they would just keep getting older without making the playoffs.

[Vince, Pt. II]

It seems so Kings to draft a player with two different ACL injuries.

[rjolley]

Don't like that trade for the Bulls. Give up a very good player on a good contract and your first rounder in a fairly deep draft for a player coming off a knee injury, a player who is questionable but has potential, and to move up 9 spots?

If that's the best you can get, why not wait and see if it gets better during the trade deadline?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

It seems so Kings to draft a player with two different ACL injuries.

I love the Kings draft. How many 20th overall picks turn into rotation players, let alone have star potential like Giles does? Especially when you have a young player like Fox & an older high floor guy like Justin Jackson already? Go for the slim chance he recovers & becomes great. Honestly even if he doesn't fully recover I think he'll he a solid rebounding big in the NBA with his IQ & work ethic.

[Groundhog]

I think OKC is a great spot for Ferguson. If he adds weight and ends up defending the perimeter half as well as he should with his build and quickness, then he could be a great '3&D' prospect. Definitely going to take some development time, though.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by rjolley

Don't like that trade for the Bulls. Give up a very good player on a good contract and your first rounder in a fairly deep draft for a player coming off a knee injury, a player who is questionable but has potential, and to move up 9 spots?

If that's the best you can get, why not wait and see if it gets better during the trade deadline?

The Bulls are a clueless organization.

[Groundhog]

Don't know much about Derrick White, but his bio screams "San Antonio".

[Groundhog]

Bolden to Sixers. That means the Sixers are leading the league with two Australian-born children of American professional basketballers who settled in Australia after their playing days were through.

[Groundhog]

triple dola

Steal in the 2nd round, even ignoring my bias. The Serbian league is not a top-tier Euro league, but when you consider the pedigrees of some of the other guys who play in that league and don't have the same impact he did at his age, it's impressive.

[jbergey22]

I like the Semi Ojeleye pick by Boston.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Don't know much about Derrick White, but his bio screams "San Antonio".

I figured they would take Josh Hart.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I figured they would take Josh Hart.

+1, though White is also a very "Spurs" pick.

[RainMaker]

Major market Chicago Bulls sold a draft pick while they are rebuilding.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Major market Chicago Bulls sold a draft pick while they are rebuilding.

Yep, and a guy that seemed to have possible first round value as well. They might regret that in a few years when Bell is a nice rotational player grabbing 8 boards a night.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Yep, and a guy that seemed to have possible first round value as well. They might regret that in a few years when Bell is a nice rotational player grabbing 8 boards a night.

Are you saying the Warriors might know what they are doing?

I agree on Bell. Seems like a nice energy guy off the bench.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Are you saying the Warriors might know what they are doing?

I agree on Bell. Seems like a nice energy guy off the bench.

On ESPN the analysts were trying to put a positive spin on the Bulls situation and it came off kind of funny. Talking about like 50 million in buyouts(Rondo, Wade, and Lopez) with a starting lineup of Dunn, LaVine, Mirotic, Markkanen, & Cap room for a center and to extend Mirotic.

Seems like the Bulls waited a year too long to start this process and shouldnt have signed Wade & Rondo.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

On ESPN the analysts were trying to put a positive spin on the Bulls situation and it came off kind of funny. Talking about like 50 million in buyouts(Rondo, Wade, and Lopez) with a starting lineup of Dunn, LaVine, Mirotic, Markkanen, & Cap room for a center and to extend Mirotic.

Seems like the Bulls waited a year too long to start this process and shouldnt have signed Wade & Rondo.

They have the least talented team in the league right now. None of their young players really project to be good either.

[Logan]

I really wanted Monk on the Knicks so that hurt. That being said, he fell a bit further than I thought he would so maybe all of us are missing something.

Won't pretend to know a thing about the French PG but I don't know how you can bring an 18 year old kid from another country into this clusterfuck of a situation and expect it to go well. Like this team will actually be patient with him...really spells the need to get Carmelo off this team and far away from this kid.

Back on Monk...I thought if the Kings came out of this with Fox at 5 and Monk at 10 that would have been amazing.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Logan

I really wanted Monk on the Knicks so that hurt. That being said, he fell a bit further than I thought he would so maybe all of us are missing something.

Won't pretend to know a thing about the French PG but I don't know how you can bring an 18 year old kid from another country into this clusterfuck of a situation and expect it to go well. Like this team will actually be patient with him...really spells the need to get Carmelo off this team and far away from this kid.

Back on Monk...I thought if the Kings came out of this with Fox at 5 and Monk at 10 that would have been amazing.

His size means he has to play the point and he's in the bottom 25% of drafted guards in steal and rebound rate.

So the problems with Monk are doesn't have a position and will likely struggle to defend despite his athleticism. He's probably looking at a career as a bench scorer on a good team.

[nilodor]

Super excited the Raps got OG, he may turn into the player Carroll was supposed to be.

[Young Drachma]

Gonna officially jump on this Sixers bandwagons.

Figure they can't get any worse. Tried to do the Bucks thing, but have zero interest in going to Milwaukee and they'll never get free agents. Can't envision a world where I'd ever get excited about the Pacers, the Nets left Jersey and somehow became more irrelevant and Knicks (lol no)

We'll see how it fits.

[Neuqua]

Awful trade for the Bulls. Only chance this even remotely become tolerable is if they luck out and win the lottery next year and land Porter.

[nol]

I don't know whether the Celtics screwed up more by letting Butler move for such minimal value or if the Bulls were just that enthralled by the backup backcourt for a 31-win team.

[bhlloy]

Yeah, given the Celtics goals they have to be kicking themselves looking at how cheaply Butler ended up moving for.

On a very slightly related note, I was looking at LaVine and Dunn on basketball reference to see if there was something I was missing and holy hell some of Wiggins advanced stats are awful. I don't know if I've ever seen such a difference in a guy who is commonly thought of as an good young player and some of the advanced stats that say he's far below replacement value.

[rjolley]

Originally Posted by nol

I don't whether the Celtics screwed up more by letting Butler move for such minimal value or if the Bulls were just that enthralled by the backup backcourt for a 31-win team.

Talking about it with a friend, we wondered if Chicago was following the rule of not trading Butler to a team that could prevent you from getting to the Finals. However, if they would've made the trade when it was the #1 pick, it would've been worth it for Fultz plus whichever player they received. Even more worth it if another first rounder was thrown in.

At this point, I'd expect Chicago to be drafting in the lottery for the next couple of seasons.

We don't know if Hoiberg can develop talent and it doesn't appear that GarPax can make the right moves for the franchise. This could be a very painful rebuild. We'll have to luck into talent in the next couple of drafts, hope LaVine recovers fully and earns his new salary since he's an RFA after this year, and Dunn takes huge steps forward. It's possible, but from the last couple of seasons, I don't think it works out.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Logan

really spells the need to get Phil into treatment for his dementia and far away from this team

Fixed that for ya

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Yeah, given the Celtics goals they have to be kicking themselves looking at how cheaply Butler ended up moving for.

On a very slightly related note, I was looking at LaVine and Dunn on basketball reference to see if there was something I was missing and holy hell some of Wiggins advanced stats are awful. I don't know if I've ever seen such a difference in a guy who is commonly thought of as an good young player and some of the advanced stats that say he's far below replacement value.

Wiggins is terrible at this stage of his career. He's a volume scorer that does nothing else. He doesnt pass, doesn't rebound, doesn't defend, and he hasn't really improved anything other than his shot attempts since being drafted. With Butler coming in they'd be better pushing him to the bench and finding a 3 and D wing.

[nol]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Yeah, given the Celtics goals they have to be kicking themselves looking at how cheaply Butler ended up moving for.

On a very slightly related note, I was looking at LaVine and Dunn on basketball reference to see if there was something I was missing and holy hell some of Wiggins advanced stats are awful. I don't know if I've ever seen such a difference in a guy who is commonly thought of as an good young player and some of the advanced stats that say he's far below replacement value.

If you compare Wiggins' seasons to DeMar Derozan's at the same age, Wiggins is basically 20 percent better all around than Derozan. And yes, the advanced stats certainly wouldn't consider Derozan to be worthy of 2nd team all-NBA or whatever he was, but if Wiggins stays on that development curve a better DeRozan with 3-point range is nothing to sneeze at. A lot of players from that draft have had a rough start to their careers; Embiid has done more to help his team win in the 31 games he's been healthy than a lot of the guys drafted around him have done in 3 seasons.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by nol

I don't whether the Celtics screwed up more by letting Butler move for such minimal value or if the Bulls were just that enthralled by the backup backcourt for a 31-win team.

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Yeah, given the Celtics goals they have to be kicking themselves looking at how cheaply Butler ended up moving for.

On a very slightly related note, I was looking at LaVine and Dunn on basketball reference to see if there was something I was missing and holy hell some of Wiggins advanced stats are awful. I don't know if I've ever seen such a difference in a guy who is commonly thought of as an good young player and some of the advanced stats that say he's far below replacement value.

Originally Posted by rjolley

Talking about it with a friend, we wondered if Chicago was following the rule of not trading Butler to a team that could prevent you from getting to the Finals. However, if they would've made the trade when it was the #1 pick, it would've been worth it for Fultz plus whichever player they received. Even more worth it if another first rounder was thrown in.

At this point, I'd expect Chicago to be drafting in the lottery for the next couple of seasons.

We don't know if Hoiberg can develop talent and it doesn't appear that GarPax can make the right moves for the franchise. This could be a very painful rebuild. We'll have to luck into talent in the next couple of drafts, hope LaVine recovers fully and earns his new salary since he's an RFA after this year, and Dunn takes huge steps forward. It's possible, but from the last couple of seasons, I don't think it works out.

Doesn't it almost have to be on Chicago's end? If we are to believe their own reports, the offer they took was (paraphrasing) 'much better than the other offers on the table.' I cannot imagine people seriously shopping for Butler would have possibly been able to float offers that were 'much worse' than that with a straight face.

[nol]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Doesn't it almost have to be on Chicago's end? If we are to believe their own reports, the offer they took was (paraphrasing) 'much better than the other offers on the table.' I cannot imagine people seriously shopping for Butler would have possibly been able to float offers that were 'much worse' than that with a straight face.

#3 and Brown for Butler is simultaneously much better than what Minnesota offered and would have been more than fair for Boston, and it is very easy to see Danny Ainge not only making a ridiculously lowball offer with a straight face but then telling the media that the other team's demands were unreasonable.

This will lead to quite the bidding war for George now, as I believe Hayward signing in Boston would be 100 percent contingent on them getting PG13 and the Lakers probably don't want to risk the Celtics getting their hands on him. Apparently the Celtics were unwilling to include the 3rd pick in a trade for Jimmy Butler, and that could very well end up blowing up in their face since the Lakers and Kings both got some nice players in the draft that could end up making the future pick Boston obtained from Philadelphia worse.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Doesn't it almost have to be on Chicago's end? If we are to believe their own reports, the offer they took was (paraphrasing) 'much better than the other offers on the table.' I cannot imagine people seriously shopping for Butler would have possibly been able to float offers that were 'much worse' than that with a straight face.

Bulls have been in love with Kris Dunn for some dumb reason. Take that into account when the Bulls discuss what the best deal offered was.

[RainMaker]

The East is going to be so bad next year. Bulls and Hawks are definitely out of the playoffs next year. Pacers too if they trade George.

I think Miami will have a better record but there are going to be some bad teams in the playoffs.

[Groundhog]

I guess the Bucks should improve by default.

[Brian Swartz]

So apparently Cousins is losing a lot of weight this off-season. I'm curious how that whole thing with him and Davis works out in New Orleans now that they have some time to think about exactly what they want to try to do. In the West I think a lot of teams should be better and not many worse, though if Aldridge does get traded it could obviously shake that up. Might trend back in the direction of the gap growing between West and East, maybe even enough for the dysfunctional Pistons to sneak into the playoffs and get swept again.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Might trend back in the direction of the gap growing between West and East...

Even though it did obviously get a little better than it was at its worst, how far did it actually correct? I don't think any team other than Cleveland could have beaten the top 4, maybe even 5 teams in the West this year, and I literally don't remember the last time I thought anyone but the team LeBron played for had a chance in the East.

[Brian Swartz]

At least by record, the difference wasn't nearly as pronounced this past year. 2-3 years ago, a .500 record got you 5th or 6th seed in the East, and 10th or so out West a few games out of the playoffs. Gets rather humorous when it goes to that extreme. At least in terms of wins, Bos/Tor/Was were very similar to the 3-5 seeds in the West. Still clear who the best conference was, but it wasn't a total disaster. You're definitely right in that there was a good ways to go yet, but it was looking promising for a while.

[nilodor]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

At least by record, the difference wasn't nearly as pronounced this past year. 2-3 years ago, a .500 record got you 5th or 6th seed in the East, and 10th or so out West a few games out of the playoffs. Gets rather humorous when it goes to that extreme. At least in terms of wins, Bos/Tor/Was were very similar to the 3-5 seeds in the West. Still clear who the best conference was, but it wasn't a total disaster. You're definitely right in that there was a good ways to go yet, but it was looking promising for a while.

Still not great though, the wins against each conference the last 3 years is:
West wins/East Wins
2016-17 246/204
2015-16 232/218
2014-15 263/198

This makes the average conference record for the west (east would be the reverse)
2016-17 42/40
2015-16 41/41
2014-15 44/38

[nol]

Chicago and Indiana were bad playoff teams this season, so them dropping out and being replaced with two other bad teams wouldn't really change things.

Charlotte should be decent again; Cody Zeller is secretly pretty good and the Hornets were 3-17 in the games he missed due to injury. On top of that they got Dwight Howard for basically nothing and had Monk fall to them in the draft.

I don't see how Milwaukee would improve 'by default' since they were already better than the Bulls and Pacers and are led by a 22-year-old who has increased his points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks per game every season he's been in the league. Giannis doesn't need to improve much more to be the kind of player who can drag a team to 50 wins by himself. If the Bucks took a page out of Minnesota's playbook and moved on from Jabari Parker while he still has value, the veteran they could get for him could be enough to make them the 2nd-best team in the East with improvement from Giannis and the two rookies and Middleton putting in a healthy season.

Philadelphia will be a solid playoff team barring major injuries. The Sixers were 8-7 when Embiid played 26 minutes or more, and the talent around him figures to be much improved.

Miami's little run was fool's gold (they played Brooklyn and Embiid-less Philadelphia 4 times in that winning streak they had) but now that they got Bosh's contract voided they could always sign someone.

[BishopMVP]

Monk falling to them was nice, but I'm not sure what Charlotte is doing. Zeller is pretty good, but I don't think Howard can share the floor with him or MKG, let alone both. Kemba's knee terrifies me, & if he goes down what do they do, run the offense through Monk? Nobody else on that roster can create offense.

I don't think the disparity between conferences was very big this year. I think healthy Boston, Toronto & Washington were on the same tier as Houston, the Clippers & Utah, and any series between the 6 would've been a toss up. And the 7th/8th/9th West teams were down so you didn't have a 48 win team missing the playoffs like a couple years ago.

Idk if they'll re-sign James Johnson who was pretty essential to their turnaround, (or if the Gordon Hayward to Miami rumors have any truth to them) but I believe Miami had real improvement and not a mirage. They had a positive point differential for the season and wins over GS/Toronto, multiple W's over Milwaukee, Houston & Cleveland in their good stretch. Goran Dragic is a pretty awesome PG when put in a spread pick & roll system.

[nol]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Monk falling to them was nice, but I'm not sure what Charlotte is doing. Zeller is pretty good, but I don't think Howard can share the floor with him or MKG, let alone both. Kemba's knee terrifies me, & if he goes down what do they do, run the offense through Monk? Nobody else on that roster can create offense.

Charlotte dumped the salaries of two bad players in order to take on an equivalent amount of salary in Dwight Howard, who is not bad but is just a pain to deal with, and moved up 10 spots in the draft for their trouble. The Hornets won 48 games in 2016 and were on pace for 44-45 wins this year with Zeller healthy. They just need Howard to be less bad than Spencer Hawes or Frank Kaminsky. Walker has been healthy for the past 2 full seasons, and when you play the 'what if their best player gets hurt?' game, the answer for the Hornets is the same as it would be for just about every other team.

I don't think the disparity between conferences was very big this year. I think healthy Boston, Toronto & Washington were on the same tier as Houston, the Clippers & Utah, and any series between the 6 would've been a toss up. And the 7th/8th/9th West teams were down so you didn't have a 48 win team missing the playoffs like a couple years ago.

The Clippers were without Chris Paul on a road back-to-back against Boston and Toronto and lost both games by single digits, and the Clippers were the worst of those three West teams. Utah was outscored against the Warriors by less than the Celtics were against the Cavaliers, and George Hill only played 28 minutes that series before getting hurt; Boston is trying to get Utah's 2nd-best player to be its best player. The gap has closed further down the line and maybe those series would be competitive relative to what happens when the Cavs play Eastern Conference teams, but it would require a very loose definition of "championship contender" to say more than one team in the East could have been described as one this season.

Idk if they'll re-sign James Johnson who was pretty essential to their turnaround, (or if the Gordon Hayward to Miami rumors have any truth to them) but I believe Miami had real improvement and not a mirage. They had a positive point differential for the season and wins over GS/Toronto, multiple W's over Milwaukee, Houston & Cleveland in their good stretch. Goran Dragic is a pretty awesome PG when put in a spread pick & roll system.

Sure, they were better than the team that started 11-30, but those games count just the same. Miami surprised some teams by continuing to play hard when they had already dug that big of a hole for themselves, but they're the East version of the Blazers in that they consider themselves big-time but are just an ultra-expensive .500 team if they run it back with the same group.

[Izulde]

Woj to ESPN on July 1st. Interesting.

[Logan]

Phil is out with the Knicks.

Maybe, just maybe, it should have been done before he had the chance to trade Porzingis and before he drafted a kid in the top 10 because of how he fit into an antiquated system?

[Vince, Pt. II]

I'm hearing Chris Paul to the Rockets on a sign and trade?

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

I'm hearing Chris Paul to the Rockets on a sign and trade?

For Beverley, Decker, Williams, and a 2018 1st.

That's a crap haul.