POL: US national language(s)?

[Dutch]

Probably a grand idea in thought but too radical to implement, but what are folks thoughts on making English and Spanish the national language of the USA and requiring all citizens to learn them in grade school?

I personally would lean towards making English and Spanish the national languages and see a great benefit in all (most) Americans becoming bi-lingual in the long term.

Making English and Spanish the national languages would also require children to take two language courses in their curriculum throughout their 1-12 education would be beneficial, I would think.

Obviously for most, it would be Pri English and Spanish as a 2nd Language and for most of the rest it would be Pri Spanish and English as a 2nd language.

You would still be eligible to take up French, German, Mandarin or whatever is available in local high school's as an elective course.

Would the cost be too great to implement? Would it cause more problems that it would solve? Is standardizing under the language of English the better choice? What are your thoughts on this?

[st.cronin]

What problem is this supposed to solve?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

What problem is this supposed to solve?

Americans only knowing English and other Americans only knowing Spanish comes immediately to mind.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Americans only knowing English and other Americans only knowing Spanish comes immediately to mind.

how bout the "other americans knowing only spanish" take the initiative to LEARN ENGLISH since they chose to come to this country? Why should everyone else have to adapt to suit them? They're the ones immigrating!

(i think that is going to come off harsher than I meant it to sound, but this kind of question just irritates me. i mean what i say, but i could probably say it more eloquently/with less vitriol)

[st.cronin]

The economic incentives to learn English are so powerful that I don't see how legislation is any help.

[Franklinnoble]

You know what, if I were to move to Spain or Mexico, I would consider it my own obligation to learn Spanish. I would not expect the rest of the country to adopt my native tongue as a second language just so I could have an easier time of it.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

The economic incentives to learn English are so powerful that I don't see how legislation is any help.

I agree here--for this reason, there is really no need to designate a national language. You limit yourself economically if you cannot communicate in the dominant language effectively. (As an aside, some native-borns ought to sharpen their English as well. Because I love irony, it is one of my ultimate sources of amusement to see that many of the "English-only" proponents on this board have rather questionable English writing competency. Witness the Bubba Wheels "Have we been invaded" thread for examples of this.)

But with that being said, Americans should be encouraged to attain competence in a language other than English. There's a lot of opportunity out there, and a lot of smart Americans are probably limiting themselves professionally by not having adequate foreign language skills.

[BrianD]

I would be all in favor of making English the national language. Adding Spanish as a second national language seems like a way to really emphasize that we don't care about illegal immigration.

[Crapshoot]

You have a country that is 25% hispanic. Saying that Spanish is the hallmark of illegal immigration is an awfully dangerous way to treat the 30-40 million Hispanic Americans who are presumably bilingual.

[Greyroofoo]

Just make English the official language and be done with it.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

You have a country that is 25% hispanic. Saying that Spanish is the hallmark of illegeal immigration is an awfully dangerous way to treat the 30-40 million Hispanic Americans who are presumably bilingual.

i hope you're not referring to my post Crapshoot. Nowhere did I say anything about illegeal immigration. I was referring simply to immigration in all its forms, legal as well as illegeal...second generation as well as first.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i hope you're not referring to my post Crapshoot. Nowhere did I say anything about illegeal immigration. I was referring simply to immigration in all its forms, legal as well as illegeal...second generation as well as first.

No no - I'm referring to Brian D's. I think there's a legitimate arguement for English being the primarily language, but I think suggesting that "Spanish" equates to illegal immigration makes little sense.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

No no - I'm referring to Brian D's. I think there's a legitimate arguement for English being the primarily language, but I think suggesting that "Spanish" equates to illegal immigration makes little sense.

aaah, i totally missed Brian D's.

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Klinglerware this is a MESSAGE BOARD, why are you judging someone's English writing competency by their posts on an informal internet website.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by TheOhioStateUniversity

Klinglerware this is a MESSAGE BOARD, why are you judging someone's English writing competency by their posts on an informal internet website.

I think you meant his posts, right?

(insert appropriate smiley here)

[Solecismic]

I don't see the point. It doesn't solve anything, and it seems to go against the concept that we have freedom to choose in this country.

The only argument I could see for doing so and adding Spanish is to force companies and governments to provide bilingual service. As that would raise taxes tremendously on a local level, I'm against that.

[AZSpeechCoach]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

You know what, if I were to move to Spain or Mexico, I would consider it my own obligation to learn Spanish. I would not expect the rest of the country to adopt my native tongue as a second language just so I could have an easier time of it.

Actually, if you were to move to Europe, you would find that most countries require English lessons along with their native tongue through school. When I went to Greece 10 years ago, everybody spoke English, regardless of whether they were related to tourism or just a common person. They may not have bi-lingual signs everywhere, but they recognize the benefits of being multi-lingual. Even the countries that dislike our politics recognize the benefits of being bi or tri-lingual.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I think you meant his posts, right?

(insert appropriate smiley here)

As I've said in other posts--I'm one of the worst offenders in terms of poorly written postings. Guilty as charged!

But with that being said...

Originally Posted by one of the many immigration threads

Build the fucking wall already.....It boils my blood to see all these illegals crying about if new tougher immigration laws get passed thir RIGHTS will be violated...THEY DONT HAVE ANY RIGHTS UNDER AMERICAN LAW. dammit.

Oh i also strongly disagree with the poster who said that verteran dont get mad over seeing them march down the street with thier mexican flag, well i'm a Vet and I think its a disgrace. Most of them illegals are wishing that they could reclaim California back to mexico.

Come here legally i'm all for ya, come here illegally, suck up the healthcare system, commit crimes, and fail to learn proper fucking English...then we got problems.

...can't you see the irony of suggesting that people learn "proper fucking English" when the suggestion itself is not adhering to that standard?

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

As I've said in other posts--I'm one of the worst offenders in terms of poorly written postings. Guilty as charged!

I'm pretty sure you missed my point.

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

He was making fun of me, Klingler

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

You have a country that is 25% hispanic. Saying that Spanish is the hallmark of illegal immigration is an awfully dangerous way to treat the 30-40 million Hispanic Americans who are presumably bilingual.

25%? Damn.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by AZSpeechCoach

Actually, if you were to move to Europe, you would find that most countries require English lessons along with their native tongue through school. When I went to Greece 10 years ago, everybody spoke English, regardless of whether they were related to tourism or just a common person. They may not have bi-lingual signs everywhere, but they recognize the benefits of being multi-lingual. Even the countries that dislike our politics recognize the benefits of being bi or tri-lingual.

You're assuming my native tongue is English.

A thousand years ago, learned people all spoke Latin. Three hundred years ago, the scientific community spoke French. Today, English is the language of commerce. Europeans speak English because that's how business is done in Europe, and most of the civilized world. They do not speak English just because there's an influx of English speaking immigrants.

There is no compelling reason to learn Spanish, unless you live or do business in a spanish-speaking nation. I see no reason why we should have a federal mandate to accomodate our Latin neighbors and invaders.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

I agree here--for this reason, there is really no need to designate a national language. You limit yourself economically if you cannot communicate in the dominant language effectively. (As an aside, some native-borns ought to sharpen their English as well. Because I love irony, it is one of my ultimate sources of amusement to see that many of the "English-only" proponents on this board have rather questionable English writing competency. Witness the Bubba Wheels "Have we been invaded" thread for examples of this.)

But with that being said, Americans should be encouraged to attain competence in a language other than English. There's a lot of opportunity out there, and a lot of smart Americans are probably limiting themselves professionally by not having adequate foreign language skills.

Well put. However, I don't see why we should have to adapt our way of live to those who want to come here. They should adapt to our way of life. People from Japan and Germany can do it, then Hispancis should be held to that same standard.

[BrianD]

My point was basically similar to FN's. The main reason to adopt Spanish as a national language would be to cater to the illegal immigrants who probably have a lesser chance of speaking English. Those that are here legally and have been here for many generations are at least bilinugal.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I'm pretty sure you missed my point.

Yeah, I noticed the correction you were making. Perhaps the grammatical ambiguity of English reflexivity rearing its head again?

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by TheOhioStateUniversity

He was making fun of me, Klingler

Yeah, though he could just as easily be making fun of me. That's English grammar for you

[JPhillips]

I was shocked that almost every "official" sign in China was in Chinese characters and in English. This was true for signs in buildings, road signs, government documents, etc. Most unofficial things also had English versions. When we toured an elementary school we were told that all the children in China are being taught English from their first year.

I'm not really in favor of legalizing any language choice in the U.S., but I was struck how bi-lingual things are in China. If the U.S. governemtn started adding Spanish to road signs people would go bananas. Why is it that we hold phonemes so dear?

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Well put. However, I don't see why we should have to adapt our way of live to those who want to come here. They should adapt to our way of life. People from Japan and Germany can do it, then Hispancis should be held to that same standard.

I don't think we are being asked to adapt our way of life--if we decide not to legislate an official language, the marketplace will still likely keep English as the defacto national language...

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'd say "standardizing under the language of English is the better choice."

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by BrianD

My point was basically similar to FN's. The main reason to adopt Spanish as a national language would be to cater to the illegal immigrants who probably have a lesser chance of speaking English. Those that are here legally and have been here for many generations are at least bilinugal.

I think you'll find that mast who have immigrated and have been here for many generations aren't any more or less bi-lingual than the general populace. Hell, my grandparents are from Mexico and I can maybe carry a two minute Spanish conversation... my mom doesn't even speak Spanish.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

I think you'll find that mast who have immigrated and have been here for many generations aren't any more or less bi-lingual than the general populace. Hell, my grandparents are from Mexico and I can maybe carry a two minute Spanish conversation... my mom doesn't even speak Spanish.

Right, and those that aren't bilingual probably speak English...thus making the inclusion of Spanish as a national language unnecessary.

[clintl]

We don't need to designate a national language, and while many of the immigrants themselves may not know English, the children of immigrants are learning English just fine. I've heard them with my own ears.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by clintl

We don't need to designate a national language, and while many of the immigrants themselves may not know English, the children of immigrants are learning English just fine. I've heard them with my own ears.

I pretty much agree with this. With one Caveat. That is Hispanic english speaking parents who do not teach their children English. This annoys me to no end. They are essentially handicapping their kids, and setting them up to be behind their peers all through school.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

I pretty much agree with this. With one Caveat. That is Hispanic english speaking parents who do not teach their children English. This annoys me to no end. They are essentially handicapping their kids, and setting them up to be behind their peers all through school.

Yes, not knowing English sets them back for sure. But they do learn, and fairly quickly. I've been in kindergarten where most of the kids know little or no English, but the proportion drops dramatically even in first grade.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by clintl

Yes, not knowing English sets them back for sure. But they do learn, and fairly quickly. I've been in kindergarten where most of the kids know little or no English, but the proportion drops dramatically even in first grade.

Thank God we got rid of Bi-lingual education in CA. I'm attributing the success you describe to that. Of course, since I was for the ban of bi-lingual ed, I'm pretty sure that makes me a racist.

[clintl]

By the way, I should mention that I'm talking about oral English skills. I haven't seen enough of their English writing skills to have an opinion about how well they are doing in that respect.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Probably a grand idea in thought but too radical to implement, but what are folks thoughts on making English and Spanish the national language of the USA and requiring all citizens to learn them in grade school?

I personally would lean towards making English and Spanish the national languages and see a great benefit in all (most) Americans becoming bi-lingual in the long term.

Making English and Spanish the national languages would also require children to take two language courses in their curriculum throughout their 1-12 education would be beneficial, I would think.

Obviously for most, it would be Pri English and Spanish as a 2nd Language and for most of the rest it would be Pri Spanish and English as a 2nd language.

You would still be eligible to take up French, German, Mandarin or whatever is available in local high school's as an elective course.

Would the cost be too great to implement? Would it cause more problems that it would solve? Is standardizing under the language of English the better choice? What are your thoughts on this?

I don't really have an opinion about making English and Spanish the national language. The following is from the perspective of US student already knowing/learning English ...

Clearly, making a 2nd language in addition to English (my vote is either Spanish or Mandarin) complusory for our children can only help the long-term prospects of our children.

Mandarin will, for sure, become more-and-more a language of choice for international business. Spanish, just because of the US demographics and the closeness to South/Latin America.

My son is in 1st grade and he is learning some Spanish already. I think this is a great idea..

I don't hold the view that our children need to learn Hindu et al even though India (in addition to China) will become an economic power, because it seems that India is perfectly willing to do business in English.

[Crapshoot]

For about the 100th time, "Hindu" is a religion - the language is Hindi.

And in India, there are 12 official state languages. But going from North to South - English is probably a better bet than Hindi is.

[MrBigglesworth]

I think it is good for Americans to learn two languages, and I think it is good for government to persuade Americans to do good things (tax breaks for fuel efficient cars, for instance), but I don't think that requiring everyone to learn Spanish is a good idea. I think it's for everyone to know car repair, but I don't want Washington telling me that I have to take a mechanic course.

[fantastic flying froggies]

English is the only way to go, worldwide.

(I could probably be lynched by saying that in France, but there you go...)

[Raiders Army]

I really didn't like Spanglish, even though it had Adam Sandler in it. So I vote no to two languages.

[cody8200]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

You have a country that is 25% hispanic. Saying that Spanish is the hallmark of illegal immigration is an awfully dangerous way to treat the 30-40 million Hispanic Americans who are presumably bilingual.

The 25 percent number is incorrect. I checked out the census bureau's website. As of 2002 their were only 38.8 million hispanics living in the united States. Even if everyone of them spoke spanish then that would make up only about 13 percent of the nation. Throwing out numbers like 25 percent is dangerous because it is nearly double the truth.

[Apathetic Lurker]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

how bout the "other americans knowing only spanish" take the initiative to LEARN ENGLISH since they chose to come to this country? Why should everyone else have to adapt to suit them? They're the ones immigrating!

(i think that is going to come off harsher than I meant it to sound, but this kind of question just irritates me. i mean what i say, but i could probably say it more eloquently/with less vitriol)

No, it doesn't sound harsh to me. I came to the states with my family in 1976 and had to learn English.So did my parents. No one stood there and said "gee, let's all learn his language to make him feel better" I did it the hard way.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

I think it is good for Americans to learn two languages, and I think it is good for government to persuade Americans to do good things (tax breaks for fuel efficient cars, for instance), but I don't think that requiring everyone to learn Spanish is a good idea. I think it's for everyone to know car repair, but I don't want Washington telling me that I have to take a mechanic course.

Childhood education is required, including reading, writing, and language skills. Expanding your curriculum to include English and Spanish would not be "the man sticking it to you."

I would think that adding Spanish, a demographically relevant language in the western hemisphere to the Americans arsenal would be a positive, not a negative. Learning English AND Spanish would open horizons, not suppress them.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Childhood education is required, including reading, writing, and language skills. Expanding your curriculum to include English and Spanish would not be "the man sticking it to you."

I would think that adding Spanish, a demographically relevant language in the western hemisphere to the Americans arsenal would be a positive, not a negative. Learning English AND Spanish would open horizons, not suppress them.

For the vast majority of Americans who never travel south of the border (or live near the border), learning Spanish offers little more than learning any other language. I'm all for exposing kids to other languages, but I don't think it is necessary to take the choice of languages away from them.

[BrianD]

dola,

I should probably mention that I chose to learn Spanish in High School, and would love to eventually become fluent in Spanish, because I figured it would be the second language that I'd most likely have need of. I just don't see a need to force people to learn it in favor of other choices.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I would think that adding Spanish, a demographically relevant language in the western hemisphere to the Americans arsenal would be a positive, not a negative. Learning English AND Spanish would open horizons, not suppress them.

It depends. What are you going to remove from the curriculum in order to have the time to teach Spanish every year? There is a huge opportunity cost here. I would much prefer my son to take an extra hour of math, science, English, or hell even fine arts than Spanish.

The language of the world economy is NOT going to be Spanish any time soon. There are business opportunities to be had in Latin America, sure, and if all other things were equal, the bilingual person will have an advantage, but something has to be removed from today's curriculum in order to have the time to learn Spanish. Well, if you remove something, we will be behind somewhere else just so our youth can be fluent in Spanish.

[WSUCougar]

Perhaps an obscure language could be utilized as an inoffensive third option. I nominate Klingon.

Ka-PLAH!

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

Perhaps an obscure language could be utilized as an inoffensive third option. I nominate Klingon.

Ka-PLAH!

Well, Klingon is offensive to people who hate nerds...

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

Perhaps an obscure language could be utilized as an inoffensive third option. I nominate Klingon.

Ka-PLAH!

Bah. I don't need to learn a second language. That's what I've got a protocol droid for.