Taunted Maine Schoolkids Really a Non-Story?

[JPhillips]

After reading this article it sure looks like a lot of nothing. I'm shocked, shocked I say that Limbaugh, O'Really et al didn't bother to research what really happened before going ballistic over teachers.


Flap over war criticism in schools ends swiftly

By TESS NACELEWICZ, Portland Press Herald Writer

Copyright © 2003 Blethen Maine Newspapers Inc.


Hank Ogilby has been teaching government at Freeport High School for about nine years, but he's never told his students what political party he belongs to or whom he votes for.

Sharing that information, he said, might create a bias in the way they think about him, either positively or negatively.

"I usually don't share my opinion unless I'm asked, and if a student asks, I still may not share my opinion," Ogilby said. "I think it can compromise the learning environment."

A few days after a flap over some educators in Maine schools allegedly making inappropriate, negative comments to members of military families, the head of the Maine Army National Guard says it has been blown out of proportion. And Maine teachers say educators typically take an even-handed approach to sensitive issues in the classroom.

"We try to put as many ideas and opinions out there on the table and leave it up to them to make up their minds," Ogilby said, referring to how teachers conduct discussions with students on such controversial issues as the possible U.S. invasion of Iraq.

However, accusations surfaced last week that some Maine educators were making insensitive comments to the children of guardsmen and their parents. The story was picked up by national and international media.

Now, National Guard Maj. Gen. Joseph Tinkham is saying that national media figures, including conservative radio talk show host Rush Limbaugh and television commentator Bill O'Reilly, exaggerated the extent and nature of the problem.

National Guard spokesman Maj. Peter Rogers said Monday that one Washington paper reported that teachers were taunting and harassing kids. "We never said that," Rogers said.

He said the complaints were only about a tiny proportion of Maine's educators. "Everyone we know has been tremendous with the kids," he said. "They're professionals. Many of them are guards themselves."

The complaints were made through National Guard family assistance centers around the state. They ranged from a claim that an assistant teacher called the looming war "unethical and immoral" in a high school classroom debate, to a parent's report that a child had been mocked by other children on a school bus and school officials said there was nothing they could do.

There's uncertainty about how many complaints were made. Last week the office of Gov. John Baldacci - who said he was "disappointed and disturbed" by the reports - said the complaints numbered 12. However, Rogers on Monday said the total is 16.

At the same time, some educators are concerned that the National Guard is releasing very little information about the complaints. Rob Walker, president of the Maine Education Association, whose 25,000 members include teachers and other school staff, said that "at this point, there are accusations out there and there is nothing specific."

Walker said the complaints could be handled as private personnel matters at the local level. "How do you solve the problem unless you can get at the whole truth?" he asked.

But Rogers said Monday that the Guard doesn't want to reopen the issue. He said there have been no more complaints since Education Commissioner J. Duke Albanese - after being informed about the National Guard's concerns - issued a memo last week to schools around the state reminding educators to use a balanced teaching approach and to be sensitive to all students.

"In our eyes the problem is solved," Rogers said. "The children aren't being subjected to that anymore."

The National Guard has not said which schools were involved or who the participants were. And it described just a handful of the 16 complaints.

Albanese on Monday said he has received no details of the complaints. He said the families and the National Guard have agreed that each family will make its own decision on whether to share details with local school officials or the state Department of Education.

Rogers said the complaints were gathered by Maj. Andrew Gibson, a Guard chaplain, at meetings where relatives of deployed soldiers get information and support. Rogers said Gibson did not investigate the complaints but "feels very strongly that they are correct."

In addition to the complaints about the classroom debate and a child being mocked on the bus, the Guard has described these three other complaints:

A soldier at the Bangor meeting said that when he took his children from school early to say goodbye, he was told it would be an unexcused absence.

Another soldier reported that when he asked a school guidance counselor to watch for changes in his child's demeanor or behavior, the counselor said, "You're in the Army, aren't you? Your child should be able to deal with it."

Another parent said that when she told the school principal that her child had been teased by other children who said her father could be killed in the war, she was told there was nothing school officials could do because the other children were right and what the child's father was doing was wrong.

However, teachers interviewed Monday said they don't know of any educators who would behave as reported. Tom Major, a history teacher at South Portland High School, said, "Frankly, I can't imagine what was suggested happened."

In fact, he said that when his sophomore world history class talked about the National Guard controversy on Monday, one student asked why teachers are always asking students for their opinions but don't share their own.

Major said that airing his own views to students "is not on my agenda. It's not about me getting out my opinions, it's about me provoking their thought."

[rkmsuf]

That's the problem with much of the media these days. There's so much of it they need to create stories to spur interest.

It's also beyond me why the girl turning her back on the flag has been giving so much play...

[Arbitrary Aardvark]

Originally posted by rkmsuf
That's the problem with much of the media these days. There's so much of it they need to create stories to spur interest.

It's also beyond me why the girl turning her back on the flag has been giving so much play...

See Jerry Izenberg's column at What Should Never Flag is Our Salute to Freedom

[Taur]

Hey this little article with little facts and alot of accusations was blown out of proportion by members of this board too.

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/f...&threadid=5913

Don't Jevohah(?) Witnesses not stand for the pledge ? I think they have been doing this since the beginning of their religion; so what is the big deal about it now?

[CamEdwards]

notice that the Major quoted in the story doesn't dispute the number of accusations. In fact he says now it's 16 cases as opposed to the twelve earlier reported.

And while this story makes mention of the fact that there are 25,000 teachers in the state of Maine, it makes no mention of the fact that only 300 Guardsmen have been called up.

Now, 16 teachers out of 25,000 is a very small number.

But 16 families out of 300 is significantly larger.

I still think it's a valid story.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by CamEdwards
I still think it's a valid story.

From what was posted here, I'd have to agree with you, looks like a very legit story.

[JPhillips]

I pulled a couple of things out of the article to show why this is really a non-story that was exaggerated by those looking to make political points.

1. National Guard spokesman Maj. Peter Rogers said Monday that one Washington paper reported that teachers were taunting and harassing kids. "We never said that," Rogers said.

He said the complaints were only about a tiny proportion of Maine's educators. "Everyone we know has been tremendous with the kids," he said. "They're professionals. Many of them are guards themselves."

2. The National Guard has not said which schools were involved or who the participants were. And it described just a handful of the 16 complaints.

Albanese on Monday said he has received no details of the complaints. He said the families and the National Guard have agreed that each family will make its own decision on whether to share details with local school officials or the state Department of Education.

Rogers said the complaints were gathered by Maj. Andrew Gibson, a Guard chaplain, at meetings where relatives of deployed soldiers get information and support. Rogers said Gibson did not investigate the complaints but "feels very strongly that they are correct."

These complaints may be legit, although the Guard isn't releasing many details so that they can be verified. They aren't, as Limbaugh, The Washington Times etc., evidence of a terrible left wing bias in our highschools and elementary schools. If there were sixteen complaints in the past few months regarding the war, how many complaints were there regarding creationism v. evolution or dress codes or who made the baseball team? In a statewide system there will always be complaints about the way teachers handle things.

Limbaugh and O'Really and The Washington Times should all issue apologies for making this more than it is. The Guard spokesman sounds like he was as shocked as I was by these opportunists. Making mole hills into mountains does not make you a patriot.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by JPhillips
evidence of a terrible left wing bias in our highschools and elementary schools.

Hell, anybody who hasn't figured that exists already isn't going to get it now either.

[Fonzie]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
Hell, anybody who hasn't figured that exists already isn't going to get it now either.

[CamEdwards]

Jphillips,

I don't know how you can still say this isn't a problem. Here are the undisputed facts.

1-There have been 300 callups in Maine.

2-There have been 16 complaints registered, and there is still some question as to whether every family that has had a callup has been questioned by the Family Assistance Center. The last report I can find has the FAC only in contact with 80 of the families.

3-You say there are few specifics. The few specifics outlined to me sound pretty damn egregious. Quoting the article...

"A soldier at the Bangor meeting said that when he took his children from school early to say goodbye, he was told it would be an unexcused absence.

Another soldier reported that when he asked a school guidance counselor to watch for changes in his child's demeanor or behavior, the counselor said, "You're in the Army, aren't you? Your child should be able to deal with it."

Another parent said that when she told the school principal that her child had been teased by other children who said her father could be killed in the war, she was told there was nothing school officials could do because the other children were right and what the child's father was doing was wrong."

The Guard wants the matter to go away. It brings to light an ugly fact in this country: that not every American is proud, thankful, and respectful of our troops. And the more we (meaning talk show hosts and the media in general) talk about this, the greater the chance of this turning into a media circus with families being interviewed on the morning news shows, etc.

I again respecfully disagree with your opinion that this has been blown out of proportion. If there was ONE instance of a child or service member being harrassed, the story would not be overblown. That there are 16 in a state with only 300 callups is a story. It would be interesting to find out how many complaints have been received in California.

[JPhillips]

CamEdwards: Are you also doing stories on kids being harassed for expressing anti-war views? Even if these stories haven't been verified?

I would first like to see these claims substantiated. As of now none of them have been investigated by an outside source. I'm not saying that they are all made up, in fact I am certain that some of them are legit, but I am not willing to hear only one side of the story and make a judgement.

Even if all of these claims are verified, there is no eveidence of a wide ranging conspiracy. These are individiual incidents. The Guard spokesman even says that. ( I know, the Guard is in on the conspiracy.) They should be dealt with, but they shouldn't be used to press a preset political viewpoint.

To me this story has been way overblown. What would you say if I declared that the mall incident in New York proved that all mall ownership in America spent their days planning ways to trample the First Amendment. This is the same thing. The guys that use this aren't looking to find the facts of a story, they are looking for anything they cann find to "prove" what they already know, anyone who thinks differently than they is a godless, communist, sodomite looking to destroy America and rape its children.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by JPhillips there is no eveidence of a wide ranging conspiracy.

My God man, how much "evidence" do you require? All you have to do is stop, look, and listen to the long litany of p.c. horror stories that come out of the alleged education system in this country to realize that there are far-left agendas being promoted in public education systems across the nation.

Or better yet, try having a conversation with the average product of the system.
What they don't know and what they've been mis-taught is staggering.

[CamEdwards]

JPhillips,

How would these claims be substantiated? You think the teachers will come forward and confirm they said these things, seeing how the country has reacted to this? I think the fact that the parents have not gone public with this indicates they don't want to deal with the media circus that would come with them speaking publicly.

I don't think anybody has said this is a left wing conspiracy. What I think people have said is this is wrong and the teachers in question should be fired.

I am "one of those guys that use this" and I'm not looking to find anything I can to prove that anyone who thinks differently is a godless, communist, sodomite looking to destroy this country and rape its children.

I will say I am pointing out the actions of what I consider to be immature at best, sadistic at worst people who take pleasure in the pain of a family facing the possible death of a mother, father, husband, or wife.

[Easy Mac]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
My God man, how much "evidence" do you require? All you have to do is stop, look, and listen to the long litany of p.c. horror stories that come out of the alleged education system in this country to realize that there are far-left agendas being promoted in public education systems across the nation.

Or better yet, try having a conversation with the average product of the system.
What they don't know and what they've been mis-taught is staggering.

So only conservatives who block out the "left wing conspiracy" are able to hold an intelligent conversation? That surprises me, because a lot of the strong conservatives in this state can barely spell, let alone carry on intelligible conversations.

Maybe we should re-segregate schools and the workplace, that way you don't have a conversation with them.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
Maybe we should re-segregate schools and the workplace, that way you don't have a conversation with them.

Hot damn! The Star Bellied Sneetches will rise again!

[Fritz]

dola

FWIW, I think what happend to the few kids in Maine is actually a bit more common than many think.

[JPhillips]

Cam: They could be somewhat substantiated by independent investigations. I'm sorry but I just don't trust having all of the information come from one guy that never checked them out but felt "certain" that the stories were true. Those stories that are true need to be dealt with, although those that concern other students will be hard to stop. As long as there are kids there will be teasing.

Obviously I haven't heard your show, and I apologize for lumping you in with Limbaugh and O'Really and Hannity. Those guys have used this as continuing proof of the left wing conspiracy in our schools. They are using it to back their political agenda without checking to see if the story was true.

I guess that is really what I am upset about. This story exploded without mucch background. It would be nice to see a story like this checked before using it. BTW I feel the same about the New York mall story. These types of stories are grabbed by people who have already made up their minds and are used to say, "See I was right all along."

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
So only conservatives who block out the "left wing conspiracy" are able to hold an intelligent conversation? That surprises me, because a lot of the strong conservatives in this state can barely spell, let alone carry on intelligible conversations.

Maybe we should re-segregate schools and the workplace, that way you don't have a conversation with them.

Re-read it, that's not what I said, or rather, what you seem to have interpreted isn't what I was indicting.

My point was the amount of importance many in the education industry seem to attach to teaching revisionist history and other p.c. garbage that is mislabeled as "diversity education".

The damage done by that isn't limited to any particular student political bent (although I would say that those with conservative tendencies do overcome it better than others *g*)

As for the rest, that wasn't what I was getting at (hopefully I've managed to explain it better on the 2nd try)

[Fritz]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
My point was the amount of importance many in the education industry seem to attach to teaching revisionist history and other p.c. garbage that is mislabeled as "diversity education".

clap clap calp!

"education industry" - I love it!

[Easy Mac]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
Re-read it, that's not what I said, or rather, what you seem to have interpreted isn't what I was indicting.

My point was the amount of importance many in the education industry seem to attach to teaching revisionist history and other p.c. garbage that is mislabeled as "diversity education".

The damage done by that isn't limited to any particular student political bent (although I would say that those with conservative tendencies do overcome it better than others *g*)

As for the rest, that wasn't what I was getting at (hopefully I've managed to explain it better on the 2nd try)

First, sorry i came off hostile, bad wording on my/our parts.

I will say education sucks in this country, we do not disagree. I just disagree that there is an intentional bias towards the left. I merely think it is inadequate, poorly qualified teachers who don't know their subject, and therefore teach the wrong things or some things not at all. I also don't think they teach correctly, teaching for standardized tests instead of trying to teach them to think on their own.

[kcchief19]

Wow, I'd love to see why left-wing wackjob schools you went to, because my high school teaching staff had about 6 liberals out of about 100 teachers.

For the record, no on should mistake Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly for "journalists." Those guys are entertainers whose material happens to politics. Any thing resembling "news" that you see from those guys is only coincidental.