2014 FIFA World Cup

[DaddyTorgo]

New plan for your Wondo-defense Fozzie?

Hell - Cobi Jones would have scored that goal while getting a BJ.

In fact, that's going to be my new thing. People who would have scored that goal.

The Pope would have scored that goal.

I mean look - the entire loss isn't on him or anything - they were massively outshot and looked more like the team that played Ghana or Germany than the team that dominated Portugal for long stretches, but he didn't do his job AT ALL. Which was the only reason he was on the team - to be a poacher inside the 18.

I still question why AJ wasn't given the run out instead of him - more mobility and movement off the ball in the attacking third were SORELY needed yesterday. And Klinsi bears blame too - for not picking a backup target man behind Jozy, and specifically to yesterday, for the Wondo substitution and for waiting wayyyyy too late to use his third sub.

[FrogMan]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Why'd Klinsy wait so long to make his third substitution? After going down in extra time that attacking sub has to be in RIGHT AWAY. Not fucking...20 minutes later.

I know hindsight is 20-20 but this, this, THIS! I don't know the US bench much but couldn't he have brought in Green earlier? I mean, look how Lukaku ran around and over the US defenders. My first thought right then was "don't the US have some fresh legs on their bench to do the same?" Especially after going down by 1. I just couldn't understand why he was holding to his last substitution until so late...

Otherwise, it was a very entertaining game, part of a very entertaining WC. The whole thing made even more entertaining that I follow matches with my 10yo son who plays soccer too, great dad/son time

FM

[Butter]

That screenshot tortures me. The game was there for the taking... then Wondo took his... I guess we'll call it, "shot".

God damn it, Wondo. You should be beating yourself up on Twitter. That was horrible.

[Desnudo]

If you reflect on the fact that it should have been 8-0 Belgium, maybe it'll torture you less. It's really hard to hit an accurate volley on the fly like that. I found the Dempsey miss in extra time more painful.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

There's just something about watching the U.S. that makes me feel like we only just sorta know what we're doing out there (compared to other int'l sides).

Spot on, IMO. While the U.S. has definitely improved under Klinsmann, the team still can't operate at the same speed of thought as teams who have players who regularly play in elite leagues. So, at this point you can see that they seem to know what they should be doing / attempting, but aren't quite able to execute it.

Originally Posted by nol

Yeah, I'd definitely say American teams have typically been lacking in the fluency/creativity that you need to make something out of nothing. They don't take a backseat to that many teams athletically.

I think there's three levels here:

1. Rely on athleticism mainly and hope to catch a lucky break.
2. Have the team ability to construct moves and opportunities and "play your game" against similar to somewhat better opposition.
3. On top of #2, possess elite players who can also make something from nothing.

The U.S. used to be all about #1, and that was it. I'd say now they're getting very close to consistently being at #2.

Originally Posted by Warhammer

We have nothing to hang our head over. We made it out of our group and gave Belgium all they wanted.

Absolutely. Getting out of the group was a very good achievement. Anything else was going to be gravy. There's a lot of good potential in the side and 2018 should be very interesting.

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Just hope they move to the top leagues of Europe to really develop their IQ, first touch, and technical/creative skills.

Exactly. Honestly, we're going to need at least half the starters playing in a top European league if we want to dream of the quarters in the future.

Originally Posted by gstelmack

The US strategy in general seemed to be once the other team got the ball, collapse on the goal area. They were willing to concede shots, knowing that they'd make many of them difficult, and Howard would cover up most of the handful of mistakes the backline would make. Then, once they did get possession, charge up the field with a numbers advantage and make some magic.

That strategy came very, very, very close to making the quarterfinals from the group of death. As much as Belgium had chances to win this game 4-0 in regulation, I think the US came pretty darn close to winning it 3-0 in regulation.

I agree with the sentiment that Klinsmann has to be given enormous credit for his decisions and strategy with this team, I think he has definitely set up US Soccer nicely for 2018. Looking forward to the core of young players as they gain four more years of experience.

Howard is the MVP - without him in goal, that strategy cannot work, but because he was there we could play to the other strengths on the team.

Excellent summary. Agree 100%.

[flounder]

I'm embarrassed to admit that I have no clue about our keepers behind Howard. Are we going to be able to replace him?

[HomerSimpson98]

What a ride!

It will be very interesting to see what, if any, effect this has on the youth leagues, as mentioned earlier. We aren't close to having the talent other countries have, especially in the midfields. Perhaps this kind of excitement can get the country to look at soccer a little more favorably. I know it is much different now than it was when my near 40-year old ass was growing up.

[dacman]

Originally Posted by flounder

I'm embarrassed to admit that I have no clue about our keepers behind Howard. Are we going to be able to replace him?

Guzan is quality. Some ?'s after that though -- some decent young guys like Sean Johnson, Bill Hamid (and at least one other I can't think of).

In short, GK is the one position for the US I worry about the least. I'm much more concerned about our lack of int'l level forwards.

[flere-imsaho]

Yeah, for some reason the U.S. seems to produce a steady stream of very good to great goalkeepers.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Yeah, for some reason the U.S. seems to produce a steady stream of very good to great goalkeepers.

Because they can't generate enough offense to keep shots from happening.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by rowech

Because they can't generate enough offense to keep shots from happening.

Yeah - this.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Yeah, for some reason the U.S. seems to produce a steady stream of very good to great goalkeepers.

That's one position where athleticism and reflexes trump technical skill. And athleticism is something we have in spades.

[ISiddiqui]

I was kind of drunk all yesterday, so I didn't come in here and post...

But, the team played well, but gave up waaaay too many shots. 16 saves is great by Howard, but that meant that our defense was just letting Belgium shoot at will.

And what was up with Klinsmann's formation?! 4-3-3? And Cameron in for Beckerman?! WTF, Klinsy?! At least start Yedlin there so it doesn't look so messed up. The good old 4-2-3-1 would have been much better, especially for a team like Belgium - Jones and Beckerman providing defensive help was needed.

Also I shake my head thinking that we played Bedoya the whole tourney when we could have had Donovan, who even at 80% would have created more chances.

Oh, and I'm not a Wondo fan, but that shot was MUCH HARDER than some people in this thread are making out to be. If Wondo shoots at waist level, the goalie saves it, so the thing to do is to try to chip it up, at a run... its not that simple and I think few Americans would have made that goal.

[ISiddiqui]

Here is a picture:



That's not a simple tap in.

[Butter]

Even if there was no keeper there, it was a complete miss.

[ISiddiqui]

If you want to score goals, you do have to be aware of where the keeper is and attempt to avoid him.

[Butter]

Thanks, I was confused about how goals work.

[Logan]

There was a reason everyone in that stadium, in a bar, or at a viewing party had their hands on their face after that miss.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

And what was up with Klinsmann's formation?! 4-3-3? And Cameron in for Beckerman?! WTF, Klinsy?! At least start Yedlin there so it doesn't look so messed up. The good old 4-2-3-1 would have been much better, especially for a team like Belgium - Jones and Beckerman providing defensive help was needed.

You realize they played a 4-2-3-1, right? It's only in reporting to FIFA that it was a 4-3-3. I thought Cameron did well. The thinking was probably that you're not losing much defensively and he's been better at linking with the attack than Beckerman.



If you want to get all FM on it, you'd probably call it a 4-1-1-3-1, with 2 central defenders, a left side defender, right wing back, D-mid, center mid, 3 attacking mids and a lone striker.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Here is a picture:



That's not a simple tap in.

For what, a peewee league player?

[Arles]

He could have gone low and to the right, chipped it or even hit it with pace right at the keeper's hand (at which point he tips it into the back of the net). Given how extended the keeper was, essentially any shot on net with a minimal amount of pace on it had a good chance of scoring. It was just a dreadful miss (or "howler" as the Brits say )

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

You realize they played a 4-2-3-1, right? It's only in reporting to FIFA that it was a 4-3-3. I thought Cameron did well. The thinking was probably that you're not losing much defensively and he's been better at linking with the attack than Beckerman.



If you want to get all FM on it, you'd probably call it a 4-1-1-3-1, with 2 central defenders, a left side defender, right wing back, D-mid, center mid, 3 attacking mids and a lone striker.

Cameron definitely attempted to play out wide a bit, especially early. He probably settled back into a central role, but I don't think that was his expected role. After all, why report you are in a 4-3-3 when you don't intend to be - there is absolutely no advantage to it? In addition, he was almost universally considered our 2nd worst player on the pitch after Bedoya.

[bhlloy]

That is a simple tap in, sorry

[flere-imsaho]

Twitter / VincentKompany: Two words.. TIM HOWARD #Respect ...

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Arles

He could have gone low and to the right, chipped it or even hit it with pace right at the keeper's hand (at which point he tips it into the back of the net). Given how extended the keeper was, essentially any shot on net with a minimal amount of pace on it had a good chance of scoring. It was just a dreadful miss (or "howler" as the Brits say )

He did attempt to chip it - he mishit. You realize that he was volleying it, right?

[flere-imsaho]

Comparing Wondo's miss to Green's goal is very instructive, in the context of this conversation.

[ISiddiqui]

Of course everyone realizes just how incredible Green's goal was... and thus understands his great promise.

[Glengoyne]

I watched the US game last night, as I was only able to catch the second half, and that was a spanish language because some penny pinching nazi decided that the company should save the $9 a month that a cable package including ESPN would cost.

All in all the US wasn't as awful as watching just the second half led me to believe. During that first 30-35 minutes of the second half the US was tentative and even looked to be panicked when Belgium applied pressure, especially to our midfield.

Actually I'd have to say that we wern't nearly as outclassed as I originally believed. Belgium were clearly the better side, but their decision tactically to let up the pressure on possession and give our players space very nearly cost them the game. If the US had scored on any of the nicely crafted moves late, I would not have even been ashamed.

That said. Wondo!?!
Oh and following the commentary on that was great. "The Flag was up, it wouldn't have counted"..."The linesman was waving the flag wildly, but that was always about the goal kick". Good stuff.

[Arles]

As with ISiddiqui, I was in no state to post yesterday. My general thought is that the US starters had a solid backline, amazing goalie - yet very little creativity up front. Bradley was a massive disappointment. I'm willing to give him a little bit of a break as the original plan was to play him deep in the midfield (almost defensive), with Dempsey as the attacking midfielder and Jozy as the striker. instead, both Clint and Bradley had to move up a slot. I can't help thinking that having Landon in at striker would have helped Dempsey and Bradley look better. Even though Landon isn't the target man we need in that spot, he atleast allows the other two to keep their spots. It's kind of like an OL where the center gets hurt, the guard switches to center, the tackle to guard and a backup comes in at tackle. The whole OL falls apart and that was our offense.

Looking forward, it's essentially we get more creativity up front. I like the defense foundation with Omar/Besler/Brooks at CB. At the wing spots, Fabian/Yedlin/Green are nice options. Guzan (at Aston Villa in the English Premier) should hold up fine in net. The key will be the striker/attacking midfield spots. That's where I am excited to see what level of talent comes up there. If one of the young guys from Max Diskerud, Luis Gil, Gedion Zelalem can make that leap - we may have a much more creative/fluid style going into 2018.

[flere-imsaho]

Agree with Arles that finding consistent creativity up front is going to be key. The only thing I'd add is that those same players will also need to increase their poise on the ball as well.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

He did attempt to chip it - he mishit. You realize that he was volleying it, right?

It was a volley perfectly positioned about a foot above the ground. It wasn't like he was hitting it from his hip. The ball will already have some power from being a volley, he just needed to either punch it into the ground (low and to the right) or direct it at the net in any way and it probably goes in. Worst case, the goalie makes a world class save and we get a corner.

Wondo is in there for one reason - finish a play in the box. That ball is what he trains for - the miss was inexcusable. It's like being a lefty specialist who faces David Ortiz in the world series and sends up a spinning meatball instead of a curve. Can it happen? Sure, but it's a massive disappointment given that player is on the team for that (and only that) situation.

[PilotMan]

It should have been 10-4 Belgium. I mean there were that many chances. Having said that the Wondo shot was awful. That's a shot that HAS to be made 100% of the time at this level. That's put away. The Dempsey miss was just paiinful. I mean, every time I see it I still think he is going to beat the keeper. Both guys should have scored, but I blame Wondo more because the keeper did a good job of closing Clint and making that shot much harder. Wondo just missed a wide open shot. He is going to lose a lot of sleep on this one because he is never getting another shot at redeeming himself again. And THAT SUCKS for anyone.

[Chief Rum]

Is Zelalem going to play for us or for Germany? Hasn't he been playing for Germany youth teams?

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

... Wondo shot was awful. ...The Dempsey miss was just paiinful. I mean, every time I see it I still think he is going to beat the keeper. ... Wondo just missed a wide open shot. He is going to lose a lot of sleep on this one because he is never getting another shot at redeeming himself again. And THAT SUCKS for anyone.

On Dempsey and the free kick: i admit while watching the replay last night, I nearly leapt out of my chair, as I remember my father doing when Dwight Clark made THE CATCH against Dallas.
I was ecstatic because "He HAS to score there!" Ouch.

On Wondo. I'm guessing that he just started sleeping well again after his VERY similar howler a few years back in the gold cup.

It is hard to believe that we, as an international side haven't improved our finishing enough in three years that Wondo is still in a position to be on the field missing that shot.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Is Zelalem going to play for us or for Germany? Hasn't he been playing for Germany youth teams?

Rumors of a switch since he declined a place in a tournament that would have tied him to Germany. I guess since he isn't a US citizen yet, that if he would have played, he wouldn't have been able to switch in the future. Once he becomes a citizen, then he could play for Germany's youth teams in tournaments but still switch later.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Is Zelalem going to play for us or for Germany? Hasn't he been playing for Germany youth teams?

So have Green and likely a dozen players for various national teams around the globe

I am happy that the US played a spirited game (and tournament), sorry it did not end in a win yesterday. Can´t claim that Belgium was not the better team though, i´m afraid.

I think the way the US with Klinsmann has started is the right one. I think i made a similar post before and am not feeling like typing a novel right now regardless, so the short thoughts i have here:

1) The talent level, right now, is not there. It is much easier to build a quality defense with lesser talent (especially if it is backed by a Top5 GK in the world), than it is to build a potent attack. There is a reason why no one other than Dempsey has played an attacking role with even a borderline EL/CL team (in case of some of the younger players, maybe not yet) and a reason why Bradley was forced into a much more offensive responsibility than he is comfortable with imo. Guys like Zusi or Bedoya are not quality wingers.
There are not many players who would start for any of the 1/4 finalists.

2) The current roster is also not incredibly young, with quite a few starters unlikely (or at least not totally likely) to play again in 4 years.

3) With the physical talent naturally around, the US could choose to rely on fighting spirit, team work and the occasional real talent and reach the round of 16 regularly or sometimes the round of 8.

4) However, if there is ever to be a chance for more than a miracle run going further than that, you need to create the "base" of something more sound and reliable. Especially nowadays, where nearly every team (well, there´s allways a Cameroon) is able to play hard and smart to some degree and no one is underestimating anybody anymore.
Because for that time when a new Donovan or a few similarly talented players arrive on the scene, you don´t want to be caught not being up to speed as a team and an "organization".
By which i don´t claim that it is key to play offensive minded football. But you need a system and a culture where players know how to play with the ball, not just defend against the other team. The very best teams of the last decade had a great defense (and neither Spain, nor Italy or France played all out attacking football), but they also had players that were able to play on the ball and who had that responsibility and freedom to take risks.

5) you can´t plan titles in soccer, but you can enhance your chances to take advantage of the opportunity. And i think the US putting more stock into player development in terms of skill and tactics, as well as a more fluid and "self-controlled" game with more of an eye on attacking play is the way to go.

6) It is absolutely necessary for young, promising players to go abroad, tough it out and work themselves up the ladder. You need the majority of your players playing big time competition as often as possible. You can´t prepare for those moments in training and you can´t become a world class player playing against subpar competition, period. (which is not a slight to the MLS per se or saying it can´t improve: But it is just not likely that it will ever be top flight or be part of anything resembling the Champions League)

DeAndre Yedlin for example should go over right after the tournament. There will be team calling without question, it is up to him ultimately if he wants to take that challenge or not. And this does not mean a big club really, but a mid table team somewhere. Maybe even that is too much of an adjustment and it might be a bad move for him. But for the USMNT to improve, there needs to be the same that applies to the other nations without top leagues: 10 guys coming over equals 2 or 3 success stories.

I mean, it is the same with young player within the big nations with top leagues: Without looking it up i am sure that not even 1/2 of the german U17 or even the U19 national team regularly make the jump to even Division 2 football in germany in their career and the U21 team will always have more guys ending up on the fringe of first division than on the senior national team.

Playing time is important and the floor might be higher for a guy just playing MLS until 24,25 (or all career) but the ceiling naturally gets lowered as well over time.



Hope this does not come across as negative, it is not meant that way i can assure you

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Bobble

This. He got outmuscled every now and then but also made quite a few critical tackles.

Lalas was talking before the game (or at halftime?) that Bradley is much better at defensive mid rather than the offensive mid he was asked to play on this team.

I know Bradley was supposed to play offensive mid but he really only did that when Beckerman was playing with him. When it was just him and Jones, and especially this last game, it was like Bradley was playing stopper and Jones was the one up top (it didn't help that Jones looked dead tired for muh of the 2nd half/extra time).

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Yeah, for some reason the U.S. seems to produce a steady stream of very good to great goalkeepers.

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

That's one position where athleticism and reflexes trump technical skill. And athleticism is something we have in spades.

We also have a culture where athletes play other sports using their hands, and being a goalkeeper isn't looked down on. When we play men's leagues quite often the all-foreign teams will have their worst athlete playing in goal because he wasn't good enough in the field.

Originally Posted by Galaxy

The pipelines are looking great...the talent seems to be getting better and deeper with each generation with the likes of Greene and Yedlin (and homegrown talent to boot). Just hope they move to the top leagues of Europe to really develop their IQ, first touch, and technical/creative skills.

Meh... worst thing for Yedlin (or other early 20's American prospects) would be an immediate move to a Champions League team where they struggle for playing time or play for a bad team just because it's in a great league. English players have the same problem where they'd rather be a squad player on a CL team than going somewhere they can blossom. Stay in MLS or go to a Belgium or Eredivisie or Bundesliga II until you're ready.

Originally Posted by kingfc22

Great run for the US overall. The loss of Jozy with no real backup proved to be large. Hopefully, we can have two to three real threats up top.

Get Diego Fagundez to marry his American girlfriend too!

Originally Posted by PilotMan

It's the style of play that is thoroughly changed. No other US team has looked like they have belonged on the pitch. The quick passes, the massive teamwork, the fluid attacks. None of that has even been a part of US Soccer until now. I agree that each of the last 3 world cups have gotten progressively better, but this team played the best soccer that any US team ever had.

Meh, I call bullshit on this. The 2002 team to name one was great. We probably have more depth than at any time now, but Claudio Reyna/Clint Mathis/Landon/DaMarcus/John O'Brien/Brian McBride was a better offensive core than our current one (especially if you don't count Altidore since he only played 20 mins). We actually outshot Germany 11-6 in the quarterfinal we lost 1-0.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

We probably have more depth than at any time now, but Claudio Reyna/Clint Mathis/Landon/DaMarcus/John O'Brien/Brian McBride was a better offensive core than our current one (especially if you don't count Altidore since he only played 20 mins). We actually outshot Germany 11-6 in the quarterfinal we lost 1-0.

The players were more talented, but the style of play was still that of an underdog from what i recall. Again, this to me comes down to one thing: Do you prepare a higher floor (but without much potential) or a high ceiling (with some risk involved due to a more complex style of play) ?

That german team btw was a real outlier. We might have been outshot by all out other oponents as well (maybe not Saudi Arabia ). There is a reason that core of players also crashed out of the group stages in the 2000 and 2004 European championship and struggled badly to qualify for 2002 (the results in the group included a 0:0 against Finland, barely beating albania and falling to England 1:5).
It reached the finals by relying solely on defense, fitness, team spirit and other intangibles (and also Michael Ballack, who played maybe the single most MVP-type tournament i have witnessed) as well as an incredibly easy draw (Saudis, Ireland, Cameroon, Paraguay, US, Korea)

Now, a german team can be expected to reach the quarters without question and is the favorite in most matchups, back then we were seriously wondering if that team was good enough to beat any one of those opponents

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by whomario

3) With the physical talent naturally around, the US could choose to rely on fighting spirit, team work and the occasional real talent and reach the round of 16 regularly or sometimes the round of 8.

4) However, if there is ever to be a chance for more than a miracle run going further than that, you need to create the "base" of something more sound and reliable. Especially nowadays, where nearly every team (well, there´s allways a Cameroon) is able to play hard and smart to some degree and no one is underestimating anybody anymore.
Because for that time when a new Donovan or a few similarly talented players arrive on the scene, you don´t want to be caught not being up to speed as a team and an "organization".
By which i don´t claim that it is key to play offensive minded football. But you need a system and a culture where players know how to play with the ball, not just defend against the other team. The very best teams of the last decade had a great defense (and neither Spain, nor Italy or France played all out attacking football), but they also had players that were able to play on the ball and who had that responsibility and freedom to take risks.

5) you can´t plan titles in soccer, but you can enhance your chances to take advantage of the opportunity. And i think the US putting more stock into player development in terms of skill and tactics, as well as a more fluid and "self-controlled" game with more of an eye on attacking play is the way to go.

6) It is absolutely necessary for young, promising players to go abroad, tough it out and work themselves up the ladder. You need the majority of your players playing big time competition as often as possible. You can´t prepare for those moments in training and you can´t become a world class player playing against subpar competition, period. (which is not a slight to the MLS per se or saying it can´t improve: But it is just not likely that it will ever be top flight or be part of anything resembling the Champions League)

DeAndre Yedlin for example should go over right after the tournament. There will be team calling without question, it is up to him ultimately if he wants to take that challenge or not.

I agree the US is doing a better job at the youth level, but some of this is just luck. A Chile or Colombia has a few great talents who are in their prime at the same time in Vidal and Sanchez or Rodriguez, Cuadrado and Falcao, after neither country really produced a top-flight player for a decade or more. I'm sure Belgium has improved parts of their youth setup, but they're also benefiting from a uniquely talented generation. France looks awesome right now, and did so 16 years ago or 8 years ago, but really struggled in between to replace Zidane. Italy and England can point to maybe 1 world class offensive player in his prime each, but they're clearly not consistently producing them either. We're casting a wider net to hopefully catch more players, but even for the countries where soccer is everything it's not an easy path to develop world-class players. Sometimes you just get lucky and players come up through non-traditional paths - the 3 most well-respected American offensive players are probably Clint Dempsey and Brian McBride, who both played HS and College ball and spent their early developing years in a weaker MLS, and Landon Donovan, who's spent almost his whole career in MLS. Meanwhile there is a long line of great prospects who went to higher tier European teams and stagnated or disappeared. Even players like Altidore and Bradley went to poor situations. If Yedlin has a great opportunity he should take it, but just blindly going to the highest profile team to offer him a contract would be a mistake. If he stays in the MLS for another year or two there's still plenty he can develop (i.e. did he even touch the ball with his left foot? How many of his crosses actually hit a target like Cristiano Ronaldo's great ball vs. the USA, or how many were just blind balls hoping someone would be there?)

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

France looks awesome right now, and did so 16 years ago or 8 years ago, but really struggled in between to replace Zidane.

Let's be fair, any squad would have had problems replacing an arguably Top 5 all time player.

Even players like Altidore and Bradley went to poor situations. If Yedlin has a great opportunity he should take it, but just blindly going to the highest profile team to offer him a contract would be a mistake. If he stays in the MLS for another year or two there's still plenty he can develop

Amen to this. Going to Europe, just to go to Europe isn't always the best move. ESPECIALLY if players are more likely to see the bench rather than seeing playing time (which is a fear in the bigger leagues). Better to play the vast majority of games in the Netherlands, Portugal, etc. than to fight for playing time and get in half or less of the games in England, France, Germany, etc.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by whomario

The players were more talented, but the style of play was still that of an underdog from what i recall. Again, this to me comes down to one thing: Do you prepare a higher floor (but without much potential) or a high ceiling (with some risk involved due to a more complex style of play) ?

Shurg, we were a counter-attacking team that relied on being disciplined and pressing hard on defense, then using our speed on the break. What would you call our style of play yesterday (or the whole World Cup)? Klinsmann talks a great game and may eventually help merge his style and beliefs with our foundation, but he was enough of a pragmatist to realize we were still a counter-attacking team who needed to rely on outworking other teams and beating them with our speed. Going forward, hopefully we do get those 2-3 creative types you can plug in that can consistently unlock a settled defense, or DeAndre Yedlin (or whoever is next cycle's wing prospect with 4.4 speed) can develop his touch to the level Fabian Johnson or Steve Cherundolo has, but it's possible to raise the ceiling while still keeping that high floor, and we're always going to be more direct and athletic like the Germans than able to play the tiki-taka a Spain or Uruguay try to play.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by whomario

So have Green and likely a dozen players for various national teams around the globe

I am happy that the US played a spirited game (and tournament), sorry it did not end in a win yesterday. Can´t claim that Belgium was not the better team though, i´m afraid.

I think the way the US with Klinsmann has started is the right one. I think i made a similar post before and am not feeling like typing a novel right now regardless, so the short thoughts i have here:

1) The talent level, right now, is not there. It is much easier to build a quality defense with lesser talent (especially if it is backed by a Top5 GK in the world), than it is to build a potent attack. There is a reason why no one other than Dempsey has played an attacking role with even a borderline EL/CL team (in case of some of the younger players, maybe not yet) and a reason why Bradley was forced into a much more offensive responsibility than he is comfortable with imo. Guys like Zusi or Bedoya are not quality wingers.
There are not many players who would start for any of the 1/4 finalists.

2) The current roster is also not incredibly young, with quite a few starters unlikely (or at least not totally likely) to play again in 4 years.

3) With the physical talent naturally around, the US could choose to rely on fighting spirit, team work and the occasional real talent and reach the round of 16 regularly or sometimes the round of 8.

4) However, if there is ever to be a chance for more than a miracle run going further than that, you need to create the "base" of something more sound and reliable. Especially nowadays, where nearly every team (well, there´s allways a Cameroon) is able to play hard and smart to some degree and no one is underestimating anybody anymore.
Because for that time when a new Donovan or a few similarly talented players arrive on the scene, you don´t want to be caught not being up to speed as a team and an "organization".
By which i don´t claim that it is key to play offensive minded football. But you need a system and a culture where players know how to play with the ball, not just defend against the other team. The very best teams of the last decade had a great defense (and neither Spain, nor Italy or France played all out attacking football), but they also had players that were able to play on the ball and who had that responsibility and freedom to take risks.

5) you can´t plan titles in soccer, but you can enhance your chances to take advantage of the opportunity. And i think the US putting more stock into player development in terms of skill and tactics, as well as a more fluid and "self-controlled" game with more of an eye on attacking play is the way to go.

6) It is absolutely necessary for young, promising players to go abroad, tough it out and work themselves up the ladder. You need the majority of your players playing big time competition as often as possible. You can´t prepare for those moments in training and you can´t become a world class player playing against subpar competition, period. (which is not a slight to the MLS per se or saying it can´t improve: But it is just not likely that it will ever be top flight or be part of anything resembling the Champions League)

DeAndre Yedlin for example should go over right after the tournament. There will be team calling without question, it is up to him ultimately if he wants to take that challenge or not. And this does not mean a big club really, but a mid table team somewhere. Maybe even that is too much of an adjustment and it might be a bad move for him. But for the USMNT to improve, there needs to be the same that applies to the other nations without top leagues: 10 guys coming over equals 2 or 3 success stories.

I mean, it is the same with young player within the big nations with top leagues: Without looking it up i am sure that not even 1/2 of the german U17 or even the U19 national team regularly make the jump to even Division 2 football in germany in their career and the U21 team will always have more guys ending up on the fringe of first division than on the senior national team.

Playing time is important and the floor might be higher for a guy just playing MLS until 24,25 (or all career) but the ceiling naturally gets lowered as well over time.



Hope this does not come across as negative, it is not meant that way i can assure you

I just skimmed your post as I'm trying to wrap up stuff at work, but I think I 100% agree with everything you've said.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Let's be fair, any squad would have had problems replacing an arguably Top 5 all time player.

I take you mean of that nation, as Zidane is nowhere near Top 5 All time globally?

[whomario]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I agree the US is doing a better job at the youth level, but some of this is just luck. A Chile or Colombia has a few great talents who are in their prime at the same time in Vidal and Sanchez or Rodriguez, Cuadrado and Falcao, after neither country really produced a top-flight player for a decade or more. I'm sure Belgium has improved parts of their youth setup, but they're also benefiting from a uniquely talented generation. France looks awesome right now, and did so 16 years ago or 8 years ago, but really struggled in between to replace Zidane. Italy and England can point to maybe 1 world class offensive player in his prime each, but they're clearly not consistently producing them either. We're casting a wider net to hopefully catch more players, but even for the countries where soccer is everything it's not an easy path to develop world-class players.

Maybe i phrased that wrongly, i´ll try again

This is exactly why you need to be ready to play a style of football that is viable at the top stages for when you have the talent available. And ideally, the current generation already plays a modern style and plays against decent competition. It is a process.

Fact remains also, that you can´t expect to beat teams with 80% of the players in one the best 25 or so clubs in the world, when your own team includes maybe 1 or 2 of those players. It is not about having 2 or 3 world class players, but you need the majority of your team to have at least "international class".
Of course it is great for the MLS when guys stay there or come back, but longterm for the national side it would be better if only rarely a player between age 21 and 30 had to be chosen from the MLS IMO.

Colombian players also have begun to Europe much more frequently i would bet, as have chilean players probably. A Vidal did not go to Europe as a finished player, either.


And as for the tactical side or the "culture": This needs to go by the trickle-down-effect. The national team has to embrace modern style of play to give young MLS guys the oportunity to play that system against international competition, to give young technical players a goal to achieve and an oportunity within the youth system
(Fact: In germany in the late 90s, players were rated by their physical ability more than anything else. And this was all trickle-down-effect : The national team embraced that style, the youth teams did so and the coaching-seminars taught this as well, leading to club teams and their youth programs doing the same thing. 75% of current youth national team players would have quit the game at age 15 in the 90s)


There is a reason why England struggles so badly and imo it goes way beyond talent level. That lack of talent is an issue now, but in earlier years their top players played top level roles for the very best Premier League teams (who were among the very best in the world) but the national team played antiquated and ineffective tactics and hoping for Beckham to hit a cross in a way that not even Heskey would manage to miss the goal.
This current England team actually played real football for a change but lacked the talent. But should those young guys develop (Sturridge, Sterling and others) they will have played modern football all their life and be ready to play that style.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by AlexB

I take you mean of that nation, as Zidane is nowhere near Top 5 All time globally?

There would be many people who would say he is top 5 all-time.

[NobodyHere]

Zidane's my number one just for the headbutt.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by AlexB

I take you mean of that nation, as Zidane is nowhere near Top 5 All time globally?

He is, by far, the best player France has produced (sorry Platini). He has definitely been in the conversation for Top European player of all time (though its clearly Beckenbauer), and therefore arguably Top 5 (note I didn't say he was definitely in - obviously the top 3 include Pele, Maradona, Beckenbauer... plenty of others fight for the other 2 - Cruyff, Garrincha, Zindane, etc),.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

He is, by far, the best player France has produced (sorry Platini). He has definitely been in the conversation for Top European player of all time (though its clearly Beckenbauer), and therefore arguably Top 5 (note I didn't say he was definitely in - obviously the top 3 include Pele, Maradona, Beckenbauer... plenty of others fight for the other 2 - Cruyff, Garrincha, Zindane, etc),.

Personally don't think Zidane's in the same class as any of the other names you've mentioned, and that's without Didi, di Sefano, Puskas, etc.

That's why football's great, different people have different opinions. It's a shame yours is wrong though

[HomerSimpson98]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

I watched the US game last night, as I was only able to catch the second half, and that was a spanish language because some penny pinching nazi decided that the company should save the $9 a month that a cable package including ESPN would cost.

The last page or so have been gold, but this is my favorite. I didnt know this is what we were calling wives these days. Awesome.

[Katon]

Pele, Maradona, Alfredo di Stefano, Beckenbauer, and Cruyff seem to be the default top 5, and I have a hard time seeing a case for putting Zidane ahead of any of them. Messi's also currently on track to finish clearly ahead of him, and then you get into a whole pile of players like Garrincha, Puskas, Xavi, Platini, etc. on the next tier down with Zidane.

Which doesn't mean replacing him was remotely easy. Still, France would have looked better if they could've gone two world cups in a row without massive internal conflicts.