Firefighters have rights too?

[RomaGoth]

At the risk of causing FOFC car burnings and riots on the virtual streets of the forum, I thought I would bring our attention to this small bit of information today:

White firefighters were victims of discrimination, Supreme Court rules - Los Angeles Times

White firefighters were victims of discrimination, Supreme Court rules



[COLOR=#333333 ! important]Justices rule, 5-4, that New Haven, Conn., was wrong to deny promotions to the firefighters, who outscored black colleagues on a test. The decision overturns a ruling supported by Sonia Sotomayor.[/color]

[wade moore]

[larrymcg421]

Let the Obama Supreme Court rumors begin (Sotomayor is selected)...... - Page 3 - Front Office Football Central

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Let the Obama Supreme Court rumors begin (Sotomayor is selected)...... - Page 3 - Front Office Football Central

Sorry, didn't know it was already part of another posting.

[ISiddiqui]

I think this is a ruling that is more important than simply how a potential SCOTUS justice ruled on it.

[larrymcg421]

That's fine with me. Just noting that there was already discussion elsewhere.

I'll just reiterate part of what I said over there. Alito's concurring opinion seems pretty hostile (not just to the lower court, but to the dissenting SCOTUS members) and section II of it is way off the deep end. I'm not surprised at all that Kennedy and the Chief Justice did not join that opinion.

[DaddyTorgo]

I support this ruling.

[Lathum]

Without getting to into politics it seems logical to me that in a field where lives are at stake the people with the highest test scores should be promoted, despite skin color, gender, etc...

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Without getting to into politics it seems logical to me that in a field where lives are at stake the people with the highest test scores should be promoted, despite skin color, gender, etc...

Well that depends on what's being tested. If the test focuses on stuff largely unrelated to the job, then I wouldn't necessarily want that. Ginsburg's dissent discusses how nearby cities like Bridgeport ran into similar issues racial disparities in the results, but have since changed their tests to factor the oral portion more heavily. The argument being that oral examinations focus more on how a firefighter would immediately respond to any number of given situations. Since Bridgeport made that change, African-Americans have scored significantly higher on the tests.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Without getting to into politics it seems logical to me that in a field where lives are at stake the people with the highest test scores should be promoted, despite skin color, gender, etc...

Except if they are gay.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Without getting to into politics it seems logical to me that in any field, period, the people with the highest test scores should be promoted, despite skin color, gender, etc...

Fixed.

[hawk4669]

I can't speak for other fire departments, but this is how our testing for promotions works:

We are required to maintain a promotional list for each rank in the fire department (aside from Chief ranks which are on an as needed basis).

I'll speak specifically about testing for Fire Captain with our agency in this example.

When the need to test approaches, the Fire Chief puts out the word department wide to all eligible employees (eligible in the sense of qualifications as certain classes, training and experience are needed for a given rank i.e. California State Fire Officer to test for Captain, etc. The classes are available to all employees to take btw). Eligible employees submit the Chief a letter of interest stating they are interested in testing for the position.

The Chief (or his designee) then puts out a study list of material, books, etc that the test will be based on. This list of materials/books/etc is put out at least six months in advance to allow for ample study time.

The Chief will then set the scoring criteria for the test with weighting given to the different sections of the test (i.e. 50% weight to written test, 25% weight given to the oral interview panel, and 25% given to the incident command simulation in the case of a Fire Captain promotional). Note that the weighting I just gave is purely example...not sure what the exact numbers are.

Depending on the rank/position being tested for, this will include topics from Fire Prevention, to Fire Command, to Hydraulics (for Engineer positions). The study materials/books are made available in all station library's and cannot leave the station after a test has been announced...this is to make the books/materials available to ALL employees. Employees are free to buy their own study materials for home usage.

The Chief, or his designee, in the meantime buys a test from a recognized, validated company (Cooperative Personnel Services in our case....) that is geared towards the list the employees have been given to study from. The test is a 100 question test that is rank specific. There is also a validated 50 question supplemental test based solely on department policy and procedure....the very rules and regs that govern our operations....so all employees are already responsible for knowing these.

On the test date, employees show up at the given location and do the written in a set amount of time. Upon completion, the tests are scored, and scores are verified by the department's administrative staff.

Our department has an 80% minimum score standard for all components of the testing. If a candidate scores below 80% on ANY section of the test, they fail and are out of the process.

Candidates who successfully pass the written test are invited to the oral interview. The oral board consists of fire officers (Captains, Chiefs, etc) from neighboring departments who as a set of questions to all of the candidates. The questions asked are exactly the same for EACH candidate. Questions range from tactical decision making, to department specific questions (like budgets, etc), to departmental policy questions. Each candidate is scored, and if they pass with 80% minimum, move on to the incident command simulation.

The incident sim basically tests the skill set required to command any type of incident a Fire Captain in our agency would realistically get to see. It could be a structure fire, or a Multi-Casualty Incident, or Hazardous Materials. All candidates get the exact same simulation, wildcards, and circumstances to keep things equal. Candidates are scored based on departmental policy, safety, and established fire service practice.

Upon completing all three phases of the test, a ranking list is established. If there is a position open, per our firefighter's union MOU, the #1 candidate on the list is offered the position. Our union put this rule in place so that the #1 candidate is always offered the job first....and the Chief can't just promote who he/she wants off the list.

My reason for this very long post?

My feeling as a 16 year firefighter is that the best candidate, regardless of gender, race, etc should get the job. To promote someone other than the #1candidate makes no sense and invalidates the reason for having a test. I know for one that in my sometimes very dangerous job, I want nothing but the best next to me on the fire engine. We owe it to the citizens we serve and to each other as professionals.

Some might ask, does a high test score ALWAYS make the best candidate? Being honest, I've worked under people and over people who've been spot on great test takers who aren't suited for the job. But through training and some patience, we deal with those issues. But by and large, at least in my time in the fire service, usually the person who scores the best on the test 1. wants the job 2. Has put the effort forth to prepare for the job 3. Has an experience level commensurate with an ideal candidate and 4. Upon their promotion do a great job.

Anyways, I'll quit my little sermon here. My main point is that if a TRUE non-discriminatory test is given, and ALL personnel are presented with the same information set to study....then the best person SHOULD and WILL get the job regardless of the color of their skin, gender, or whatever.

One other quick note: My department has just hired our first female career Firefighter and she starts September 1st. She is immenently qualified, has experience (several years as a Volunteer Firefighter with a neighboring agency), and has a terrific attitude. I sat on her hiring interview board and am very excited to see her come aboard. Again, my feeling is that no matter who or what you are...as long as you can perform our job...you belong here. Period.

Ok...I'm done.

Cheers!

[Greyroofoo]

Is she hot?

[DaddyTorgo]

picsplzkthnx!

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Well that depends on what's being tested. If the test focuses on stuff largely unrelated to the job, then I wouldn't necessarily want that. Ginsburg's dissent discusses how nearby cities like Bridgeport ran into similar issues racial disparities in the results, but have since changed their tests to factor the oral portion more heavily. The argument being that oral examinations focus more on how a firefighter would immediately respond to any number of given situations. Since Bridgeport made that change, African-Americans have scored significantly higher on the tests.

Or you could argue that oral exams are more subjective and each person could hear an answer a different way.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

Is she hot?

Aren't firefighters, by nature, "hot"?

[hawk4669]

Yes...we are all hot. Pre-requisite for the job.

(If you saw some of the mugs I work with....you'd hear the sarcasm dripping from my voice/post).



Cheers!

[larrymcg421]

What I find odd about all of this is that the promotions are 100% decided by this test and past performance seems to have zero relevance. I mean, here we have a test where people get a syllabus and study materials. So then it becomes a competition to see who can best remember the study materials over a short period of time. I've never ever been in a job where promotions were decided like that. Honestly, I'd rather promote someone who has excelled in the past, has never been late, has saved lives, has shown great ability to react to certain cituations than someone who can memorize study materials well enough to get a super high score.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

What I find odd about all of this is that the promotions are 100% decided by this test and past performance seems to have zero relevance. I mean, here we have a test where people get a syllabus and study materials. So then it becomes a competition to see who can best remember the study materials over a short period of time. I've never ever been in a job where promotions were decided like that. Honestly, I'd rather promote someone who has excelled in the past, has never been late, has saved lives, has shown great ability to react to certain cituations than someone who can memorize study materials well enough to get a super high score.

That's what I was thinking as well. How can it just be on three days of testing and not on years of performance?

SI

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

What I find odd about all of this is that the promotions are 100% decided by this test and past performance seems to have zero relevance. I mean, here we have a test where people get a syllabus and study materials. So then it becomes a competition to see who can best remember the study materials over a short period of time. I've never ever been in a job where promotions were decided like that. Honestly, I'd rather promote someone who has excelled in the past, has never been late, has saved lives, has shown great ability to react to certain cituations than someone who can memorize study materials well enough to get a super high score.

I agree wholeheartedly with that - the ability to 'test well' has little to do with someone actual aptitude to a job imho, someone can be great at tests but lazy .... I'd hope that there is at least some sanity checking regarding who is selected.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

What I find odd about all of this is that the promotions are 100% decided by this test and past performance seems to have zero relevance. I mean, here we have a test where people get a syllabus and study materials. So then it becomes a competition to see who can best remember the study materials over a short period of time. I've never ever been in a job where promotions were decided like that. Honestly, I'd rather promote someone who has excelled in the past, has never been late, has saved lives, has shown great ability to react to certain cituations than someone who can memorize study materials well enough to get a super high score.

This is actually one of the things that I like about my job -- that up to a pretty high point, advancement is determined mostly by exam progress instead of whatever other crap can mess things up. Not to say I disagree -- I think it makes much more sense for my field than for firemen.

[hawk4669]

It does seem a bit odd...however, and I say this with all the seriousness in the world....the people who do well on the promotionals usually ARE the ones who've excelled in the past, have been great firefighters and employees, and have the work ethic, experience, and education to excel.

Like I said, every so often a "test taker" (someone who's just naturally good at taking tests) slips through, but their performance at the new rank shows. That is the reason for "probation" on the first year in a new rank. For example if a new Captain promotes and does a terrible job, gets bad reviews, doesn't do well on their new rank quarterly tests, or can't perform....they are demoted back to their prior rank due to not passing probation.

For those outside the fire service, it may not seem like a good system...but in the end it really is.

But note I said a good system...not perfect.

Cheers!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

That's what I was thinking as well. How can it just be on three days of testing and not on years of performance?

I would imagine that's because in this field as with some others, what you're doing at one rank often bears little resemblance to what you're doing at another.

In military terms (since for some reason that seems like an easy analogy) there are some great privates who make lousy sergeants, and great sergeants who make bad field officers, and some great field officers who make lousy staff officers.