OOTP 9 - First Screenshots!

[Markus Heinsohn]

Hey guys,

we have just posted the first screenshots of OOTP 9, please check them out here if you are interested:
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...reenshots.html

Thanks for listening!

Cheers,
Markus

PS: The game will be released in a few weeks, at a price of $39.99... however, we'll start a pre-ordering period next week, the price will drop to $24.99 during that time

[Cringer]

Crap. I may get suckered in by the $15 off.

[Ksyrup]

LOVE the new skin - much cleaner, not as much of an eyesore as OOTP7. That alone might get me to drop $25 on it.

Question, though (although I'm afraid to hear the answer)...are there still going to be dueling player pages? Is the dual Game Screens/History Screens thing still in the game? I don't know if you've read our posts in recent threads, but I'm, uh, not a fan of the game's lay out in OOTP7. I want to go to one player card for everything - I don't want a player profile card, and then a player history card. And that goes for all of the screens, not just the player pages - there were tons of confusing, duplicative, incongruous screens in OOTP7 that made it completely frustrating to navigate through.

Anway, I've said my piece a number of times, so I'll leave it at that. Just wondering if the new game is largely going to be the same layout-wise, but with a cleaner presentation (IMO, based on the screens you posted).

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Question, though (although I'm afraid to hear the answer)...are there still going to be dueling player pages? Is the dual Game Screens/History Screens thing still in the game? I don't know if you've read our posts in recent threads, but I'm, uh, not a fan of the game's lay out in OOTP7. I want to go to one player card for everything - I don't want a player profile card, and then a player history card. And that goes for all of the screens, not just the player pages - there were tons of confusing, duplicative, incongruous screens in OOTP7 that made it completely frustrating to navigate through.

Anway, I've said my piece a number of times, so I'll leave it at that. Just wondering if the new game is largely going to be the same layout-wise, but with a cleaner presentation (IMO, based on the screens you posted).

Well, I know that this causes confusion for some, but simply think of it as a website inside the game... we all browse sports websites every day, and you can do this within OOTP as well, browsing a website which covers your baseball universe. Since we build these HTML pages for the online leagues anyway, I think it would be a waste not to put them directly into the game, considering that you can right-click on the player links to get the available actions

By the way, that player history card is a sub-section in the player profile screen, under the "history" tab.

[rjolley]

Looks very nice, Markus. A question about the scouting report.

The site says the reports are kept for each year, is generated once a year, and isn't deleted when you change scouts. Is the report regenerated if you change scouts mid-year and are both reports kept in that case?

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by rjolley

Looks very nice, Markus. A question about the scouting report.

The site says the reports are kept for each year, is generated once a year, and isn't deleted when you change scouts. Is the report regenerated if you change scouts mid-year and are both reports kept in that case?

When you change scouts, the new scout automatically updates all scouting reports... the latest previous report is kept too

However, it's not the written report that's kept, but rather the ratings, which are displayed in a list on the scouting section of the player screen.

[Subby]

Is the development engine the same as previous versions?

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Subby

Is the development engine the same as previous versions?

We have improved it Although the results it produced were extremely realistic to begin with...

[SteveMax58]

Markus...the first screenshot image says that the message type is "SI Network News".

Should that still say SI?

[Subby]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

We have improved it Although the results it produced were extremely realistic to begin with...

I don't have any issues with the results as much as I do with how it is reported. The dev reports don't give a ton of information and our league has to rely on a 3rd party utility to see all dev increases and decreases.

How has it been improved?

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Subby

I don't have any issues with the results as much as I do with how it is reported. The dev reports don't give a ton of information and our league has to rely on a 3rd party utility to see all dev increases and decreases.

How has it been improved?

Yes, since the game now stores one scouting report each year... so you can easily see the ratings progression.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

By the way, that player history card is a sub-section in the player profile screen, under the "history" tab.

Well screw me.

I figured this was something new for OOTP9, but I pulled up the old game just to see what you were talking about. And sure enough, there it is. Had no clue until this moment that the History link took me to a page with a set of 3 buttons at the top, one of which links to the SION Page.

I guess this illustrates my pont about how counter-intuitive the screens are. To me, flipping between the Player Profile and SION Page is extremely important and something I do all the time. Problem is, clicking on the player in one set of screens takes you to the profile, while from another set of screens it takes you to the SION Page. So getting between them is a tremendous pain, and even moreso because using the back arrow will sometimes skip you right out of the player altogether and back where you started. What you just showed me is great, but it's so buried in there, I didn't even know it existed until now. IMO, the link to the SION Page should be its own tab on the main player profile screen, not buried under a tab called history. It's that important.

But thanks for pointing that out. It will come in handy...for the next version of the game.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Yes, since the game now stores one scouting report each year... so you can easily see the ratings progression.

We're (FOBL) used to sim to sim progression - something that might be overly cumbersome to the db really. But it's something that we definitely use for MP (first with BOSI, now with this new utility), where we are more concerned with every adjustment, as one season takes a couple of months rather than just following a player's career over the course of a few hours/days.

http://www.thefobl.com/cgi-bin/devel...ml?player=4222

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

Markus...the first screenshot image says that the message type is "SI Network News".

Should that still say SI?

NM...I just saw the poll for this name change over there.

[Ksyrup]

Also, I hate to bring this up, but the most important issue to me is the weight the AI gives to performance vs. ratings. As I detailed in a thread earlier about this, we have the ability to set the weight given to ratings to zero, and to have the AI use only stats to evaluate players. Yet, through some specific examples I posted in that other thread, it is beyond obvious that the game is not only using ratings to evaluate the players, it is ignoring very good stats from the prior year and either demoting or outright cutting players before the next season starts. It is impossible, in real-life baseball, for a guy to win 20 games one season and end up as an unsigned FA before the next season starts (putting aside contract issues, which are not the case here). Or, for that guy to then pitch the next year in AAA.

Have these issues been dealt with, and if we still have the ability to set percentages for how the AI evaluates players (ratings and stats for current, 1 and 2 years), does that function work properly? Can we actually set up a league in which the AI uses stats almost exclusively to evaluate players, instead of preemptively demoting or promoting them based on drops or bumps in talent levels that haven't shown up in on-field performance?

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Well screw me.

I figured this was something new for OOTP9, but I pulled up the old game just to see what you were talking about. And sure enough, there it is. Had no clue until this moment that the History link took me to a page with a set of 3 buttons at the top, one of which links to the SION Page.

For FOBL I just now figured out (someone pointed it out) that I could access UER for each team through the 'Pitching Report' link on the league page (which makes sense). My first inclination though was to go to the link labeled 'Stats', which contains something a bit different.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Also, I hate to bring this up, but the most important issue to me is the weight the AI gives to performance vs. ratings. As I detailed in a thread earlier about this, we have the ability to set the weight given to ratings to zero, and to have the AI use only stats to evaluate players. Yet, through some specific examples I posted in that other thread, it is beyond obvious that the game is not only using ratings to evaluate the players, it is ignoring very good stats from the prior year and either demoting or outright cutting players before the next season starts. It is impossible, in real-life baseball, for a guy to win 20 games one season and end up as an unsigned FA before the next season starts (putting aside contract issues, which are not the case here). Or, for that guy to then pitch the next year in AAA.

Have these issues been dealt with, and if we still have the ability to set percentages for how the AI evaluates players (ratings and stats for current, 1 and 2 years), does that function work properly? Can we actually set up a league in which the AI uses stats almost exclusively to evaluate players, instead of preemptively demoting or promoting them based on drops or bumps in talent levels that haven't shown up in on-field performance?

Well, the game will use ratings if there are not enough stats for a certain year. Let's say a guy had 250 AB in a season, then the game will not use 100% stats, but rather 50% stats + 50% ratings because the stats are just a half season, and could be a fluke.

I'll look into this again though

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Well, the game will use ratings if there are not enough stats for a certain year. Let's say a guy had 250 AB in a season, then the game will not use 100% stats, but rather 50% stats + 50% ratings because the stats are just a half season, and could be a fluke.

I'll look into this again though

That would be great. Please see this post:

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...6&postcount=18

I also posted similar stuff last year on the OOTP board. I will usually set the eval %s as 10/50/30/10, meaning 10% ratings, 50% current stats, 30% last year's stats, and 10% 2 years ago stats. Sometimes the issue comes up before a season starts, which could mean the "current year's stats" are causing the problem because there are no current year stats until games start - 50% of nothing. But wouldn't that effect a number of people? But sometimes, it happens midway through a season - look at Cal McLish 1948 and Charlie Case 1908 or Don Schwall 1966.

What I really want to get to is a situation where stats matter almost entirely, so that the AI is reacting to good or bad performance in its decision-making, and not seeing a drop or jump in talent between seasons and making pre-emptive, "omnipotent" decisions.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

That would be great. Please see this post:

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...6&postcount=18

I also posted similar stuff last year on the OOTP board. I will usually set the eval %s as 10/50/30/10, meaning 10% ratings, 50% current stats, 30% last year's stats, and 10% 2 years ago stats.

see, but even you aren't being realistic. if in real life teams went by stats mostly then guys like JD Drew would've been out of the league many years ago. but obviously his "ratings", or in real life terms the skills he has, are enough to make scouts drool so he still gets contracts. if all you went by was stats then you wouldn't realize how good Drew could potentially be. or even if a you have a really talented guy stuck on a bad team - that's going to skew his stats. you don't think any scout worth his balls would say "well, he clearly is a good pitcher, his fastball is superb and he's got great control, he's just stuck on a bad team that can't give him run support".

perhaps in your baseball universe you want it another way, but that doesn't mean the way OOTP does it is wrong. not that i'm defending the game (last time i purchased OOTP was v6), just you are clearly using your own bias which is pretty much not in-line with how it's really done to make a judgement on a game.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

see, but even you aren't being realistic. if in real life teams went by stats mostly then guys like JD Drew would've been out of the league many years ago. but obviously his "ratings", or in real life terms the skills he has, are enough to make scouts drool so he still gets contracts. if all you went by was stats then you wouldn't realize how good Drew could potentially be.

perhaps in your baseball universe you want it another way, but that doesn't mean the way OOTP does it is wrong. not that i'm defending the game (last time i purchased OOTP was v6), just you are clearly using your own bias which is pretty much not in-line with how it's really done to make a judgement on a game.

I don't think Ksyrup or most users would have issues with what you describe. What I hate (and what I'm fairly certain Ksyrup doesn't like) is when a Cy Young or MVP winner gets cut the next year midseason (or earlier) because his "ratings" have suddenly dropped.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

I don't think Ksyrup or most users would have issues with what you describe. What I hate (and what I'm fairly certain Ksyrup doesn't like) is when a Cy Young or MVP winner gets cut the next year midseason because his "ratings" have suddenly dropped.

ok, i got ya. that's a different story then.

[Ksyrup]

I have no problem with a team elevating a rookie to a starting position before he performs well (although even in those cases, most often they at least show something at the minor league level that demonstrates they are ready). That's not really the main issue, anyway. By far, the bigger issue is teams dumping good-to-great performers before they show any inkling of falling off. You can't tell me that it's realistic that barring injury, the previous year's CY winner would be in the minors or dumped into FA, where no other team would take a shot at signing them.

[Ksyrup]

What EF27 said. And if you look at the examples in that post I referenced, most of the time the ratings barely drop at all. But even so...even if a great pitcher the year before shows up to spring training and sucks donkey balls, there's no way the GM would say, "You know, I think this guy is cooked. To the waiver wire with him!"

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

I don't think Ksyrup or most users would have issues with what you describe. What I hate (and what I'm fairly certain Ksyrup doesn't like) is when a Cy Young or MVP winner gets cut the next year midseason (or earlier) because his "ratings" have suddenly dropped.

Hmmm... I have not seen this in OOTP 8. Ratings & stats alone is not the only factor here, the contract plays a role as well, guys with higher contracts get a bonus.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

see, but even you aren't being realistic. if in real life teams went by stats mostly then guys like JD Drew would've been out of the league many years ago. but obviously his "ratings", or in real life terms the skills he has, are enough to make scouts drool so he still gets contracts. if all you went by was stats then you wouldn't realize how good Drew could potentially be. or even if a you have a really talented guy stuck on a bad team - that's going to skew his stats. you don't think any scout worth his balls would say "well, he clearly is a good pitcher, his fastball is superb and he's got great control, he's just stuck on a bad team that can't give him run support".

perhaps in your baseball universe you want it another way, but that doesn't mean the way OOTP does it is wrong. not that i'm defending the game (last time i purchased OOTP was v6), just you are clearly using your own bias which is pretty much not in-line with how it's really done to make a judgement on a game.

I think you are a little off base here. JD Drew would be out of the league if they went by stats? The guy is a career .285 hitter, with a .391 OBP and an OPS of .893.

Injuries and lack of clutch play have defined him far more than statistics.

The only place where I think KSyrups thinking could be off is something like a Garret Atkins last year. He was hitting .223 after his first two months with 200 or so at bats. He'd had a great year the previous year and a solid, not great year the year before that.

Essentially, 60+% of his ratings would be off base and I could see the game engine benching him for Ian Stewart, the hot shot prospect.

That said, this is still better than watching a Cy Young winner get released because of his ratings drop. Or a hall of famer getting released in the midst of a .330 20HR season because the game has determined he can't play anymore. These are things that happened in last years version even with stats being the sole decider. (which they clearly weren't)

[Anthony]

not quite the year before, but close enough (off the top of my head):

SP Bartolo Colon, 2 time 20 game winner, won 21 games as recently as 2005. had a major injury in '06, didn't quite rebound for '07 and is now in the Red Sox' minor leagues. i'm completely surprised he wasn't in the majors.

i'm not debating or aruguing with you, i didn't have last year's version of OOTP so you're more informed than i am re: this issue. i agree a Cy-Young candidate one year shouldn't be in AAA-ball the next year cuz he lost 2 pts off his stuff or something like that.

[Ksyrup]

Admittedly, I haven't looked at the contract factor, especially since I'm playing historical replays, these old guys aren't in FA, they're stuck with their teams until traded or released. So I would hope contracts don't factor in too much here. And if they do get into a contractual dispute and are dropped, maybe the issue is they don't readjust their demands? Seems like if one team dropped a CY winner, at least ONE team would take a shot at them, right?

But the other situations are troubling, too - guys demoted either mid-season or between seasons (still have to pay the contract right?).

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

And if they do get into a contractual dispute and are dropped, maybe the issue is they don't readjust their demands? Seems like if one team dropped a CY winner, at least ONE team would take a shot at them, right?

or the guy would be traded, i would assume. dropping a guy outright is such an extreme consequence for a high profile player like a Cy Young winner. or even waiver wire i would think would be an alternate result.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by TroyF

The only place where I think KSyrups thinking could be off is something like a Garret Atkins last year. He was hitting .223 after his first two months with 200 or so at bats. He'd had a great year the previous year and a solid, not great year the year before that.

Essentially, 60+% of his ratings would be off base and I could see the game engine benching him for Ian Stewart, the hot shot prospect.

That could be an issue, too, but it's so hard to track I haven't really focused on that. Looking at my post in the other thread, there are 3 examples of guys pitching lights-out and getting demoted (or dropped from the rotation and sitting unused for the rest of the year) mid-season. Even if 50% of their evaluation is based on stats, how do you explain these?


Don Schwall
1966: 12-1, 2.50, 126 IP, 110 H, 10/45 BB/K
Spends rest of year in AAA, goes 6-4 with a 2.20 ERA - No Injuries.


Cal McLish
1948: 13-5, 2.85, 148 IP, 129 H, 54/57 BB/K
Ratings: 5/3, 15/14, 11/10
No injury in 1948 - won Player of the Month for May, made the All-Star team in July...and then was dropped from the rotation and sat unused for the rest of the season. Spent 1949-51 in the minors and was done.


Charlie Case
1908: 6-4, 1.05, 94 IP, 71 H, 15/42 BB/K, completed all 10 starts
Won Pitcher of the Month for June...was sent to the minors for the rest of the year, where he went 18-5 with a 1.90 ERA at AAA.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

not quite the year before, but close enough (off the top of my head):

SP Bartolo Colon, 2 time 20 game winner, won 21 games as recently as 2005. had a major injury in '06, didn't quite rebound for '07 and is now in the Red Sox' minor leagues. i'm completely surprised he wasn't in the majors.

i'm not debating or aruguing with you, i didn't have last year's version of OOTP so you're more informed than i am re: this issue. i agree a Cy-Young candidate one year shouldn't be in AAA-ball the next year cuz he lost 2 pts off his stuff or something like that.

He's actually the perfect case for what KSyrup is trying to say. How do we know Colon didn't come back from the injury? His stats were garbage. In 2006, he gave up 71 hits in only 56 innings. He came back in 2007 and put up an ERA of 6.34 in 18 starts.

Then the Angels dumped him.

In OOTP's world, Colon could have gotten a major injury, came back and put up an ERA of 3.56 for half a season and then been cut because his ratings showed he couldn't pitch anymore.

Had Colon had a 3.50 ERA for the Angels last year, he'd be in their rotation this year while Dustin Mosely would be in relief where he belongs.

[Ksyrup]

The guys I'm talking about had no injuries that affected the decisions that were made. None.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

That could be an issue, too, but it's so hard to track I haven't really focused on that. Looking at my post in the other thread, there are 3 examples of guys pitching lights-out and getting demoted (or dropped from the rotation and sitting unused for the rest of the year) mid-season. Even if 50% of their evaluation is based on stats, how do you explain these?


Don Schwall
1966: 12-1, 2.50, 126 IP, 110 H, 10/45 BB/K
Spends rest of year in AAA, goes 6-4 with a 2.20 ERA - No Injuries.


Cal McLish
1948: 13-5, 2.85, 148 IP, 129 H, 54/57 BB/K
Ratings: 5/3, 15/14, 11/10
No injury in 1948 - won Player of the Month for May, made the All-Star team in July...and then was dropped from the rotation and sat unused for the rest of the season. Spent 1949-51 in the minors and was done.


Charlie Case
1908: 6-4, 1.05, 94 IP, 71 H, 15/42 BB/K, completed all 10 starts
Won Pitcher of the Month for June...was sent to the minors for the rest of the year, where he went 18-5 with a 1.90 ERA at AAA.

There is no explanation. I'm agreeing with you. I'm just saying your idea does have a slight tradeoff. Guys early in their second or third years who get off to slow starts with a top prospect behind them could suffer under it.

But that said, I think that's a better tradeoff then the examples you cite above, things that happen in OOTP's world all of the time.

[Anthony]

i was clearly wrong then. especially after seeing the examples KSyrup gave hard to provide a counterpoint to his statements.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

The guys I'm talking about had no injuries that affected the decisions that were made. None.

I understand, I was just making a point of what OOTP does. Ratings drops, for whatever reason, injuries/age/scout change. . . cause OOTP to completely change the evaluation of a player regardless of the stats he's putting up.

In the case of Colon, OOTP would essentially dump him as quickly as possible. IRL, his team would give him 20-25 starts after the injury to see if he still has it.

[Eaglesfan27]

I'm at work without game access, but I have multiple examples of guys from the last version who were MVP's or top pitchers in one year and then were just demoted to the minors or cut for no explanation other than their ratings dropped a few points the following year. Like Ksyrup, these were in historical careers, so it is hard to evaluate how important the contracts were in the equation, but this issue kills the main appeal of the game to me.

[Ksyrup]

Can you imagine if a team took a guy with a 12-1 record who made the All-Star team and sent him to AAA? Ha! I'd almost like to see that happen IRL just to watch the carnage unfold.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

That could be an issue, too, but it's so hard to track I haven't really focused on that. Looking at my post in the other thread, there are 3 examples of guys pitching lights-out and getting demoted (or dropped from the rotation and sitting unused for the rest of the year) mid-season. Even if 50% of their evaluation is based on stats, how do you explain these?


Don Schwall
1966: 12-1, 2.50, 126 IP, 110 H, 10/45 BB/K
Spends rest of year in AAA, goes 6-4 with a 2.20 ERA - No Injuries.


Cal McLish
1948: 13-5, 2.85, 148 IP, 129 H, 54/57 BB/K
Ratings: 5/3, 15/14, 11/10
No injury in 1948 - won Player of the Month for May, made the All-Star team in July...and then was dropped from the rotation and sat unused for the rest of the season. Spent 1949-51 in the minors and was done.


Charlie Case
1908: 6-4, 1.05, 94 IP, 71 H, 15/42 BB/K, completed all 10 starts
Won Pitcher of the Month for June...was sent to the minors for the rest of the year, where he went 18-5 with a 1.90 ERA at AAA.

That is pretty weird, I've never seen something like this in OOTP 8... which version are you using?

[Draft Dodger]

maybe the issue isn't MVP / Cy Young caliber players getting demoted, but with too many below average guys playing at the MVP / Cy Young level

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

That is pretty weird, I've never seen something like this in OOTP 8... which version are you using?

OOTP7, the SI version. Several of us brought these issues up back last April/May or so (as I can recall), so it's not related to any specific career I created. I could start a new career tonight, run 75 years of history, and find the same things.

No offense, but I don't have OOTP8 so I can't tell you if the same issue is occurring. I hope it's not. I'd be happy to do some checking if you want to send me a copy of OOTP8 or add me as a beta-tester for this limited purpose on the new game. I'm getting pretty good at spotting them, at least from the obvious lists of above-average players (mostly pitchers is where I'm seeing the issue).

[Ksyrup]

For ease of reference, here is the full list of guys I posted in the other thread wih my comments. I found these from just going through the careers of about 75% of the CY winners, in about an hour's time:


This is an historical league, with AI player evaluation options set to:

Ratings - 10
Current Year Stats - 50
Previous Year - 30
2 Years Ago - 10


Fernando Valenzuela:

1982: 18-14, 3.13 ERA, 273 IP, 229 H, 87/232 BB/K, 15 CGs
Ratings (all ratings as of January 1st of that year): 12/10, 16/11, 12/11

1983: 12-16, 3.40 ERA, 241 IP, 198 H, 86/182 BB/K, 13 CGs
Ratings: 10/8, 14/11, 11/9

1984: AAA - 15-8, 2.63 ERA, 192 IP, 130 H, 75/236 BB/KK, 14 CGs
Ratings: 8/6, 11/10, 11/9

Didn't pitch in the majors again until 1987, but pitched very well in the minors for 84-86. Yes, his rating slipped from 1982 to 1984, but his stats do not support dropping him to the minors before 1984 even started.




Here's an interesting one - Cal McLish:

1946 - 21-9, 2.48, 236 IP, 174 H, 77/183 BB/K
Won Cy Young Award!
Ratings: 8/7, 15/13, 12/13

1947: 20-4, 3.24, 195 IP, 157 H, 82/88 BB/K
Ratings: 6/5, 15/14, 12/10

1948: 13-5, 2.85, 148 IP, 129 H, 54/57 BB/K
Ratings: 5/3, 15/14, 11/10

No injury in 1948 - won Player of the Month for May, made the All-Star team in July...and then was dropped from the rotation and sat unused for the rest of the season. Spent 1949-51 in the minors and was done.




Chief Bender:

1904: 26-13, 1.83, 359 IP, 279 H, 80/260 BB/K, 37 CGs
Ratings: 8/8, 19/20, 14/15

1905: 22-17, 1.91, 349 IP, 257 H, 94/245 BB/K, 36 CGs
Won Cy Young Award!
Ratings: 8/7, 17/16, 14/12

1906 ratings: 7/6, 17/16, 12/9
1906-07 - spent entire years in minors. Won Cy Young in 1905 and never pitched in the majors again!!!???




Here's a bizarre one....Charlie Case:

1907: 22-16, 2.48, 341 IP, 330 H, 81/110 BB/K, 36 CGs
Ratings: 4/3, 18/18, 14/14

1908: 6-4, 1.05, 94 IP, 71 H, 15/42 BB/K, completed all 10 starts
Won Pitcher of the Month for June...was sent to the minors for the rest of the year, where he went 18-5 with a 1.90 ERA at AAA.
Ratings: 3/3, 18/18, 14/14

1909: Released by the Tigers on April 8th; re-signed by the Tigers on November 27th! Did not pitch the entire year!!
Ratings: 3/3, 18/18, 14/14

1910: 15-13, 2.67, 273 IP, 263 H, 75/92, 24 CGs
Ratings: 4/3, 18/18, 14/14

That's right - dude lost 1 POINT off his stuff, which got him tossed out of the starting rotation with a 1.05 ERA and released the next year. He regained that 1 point, and he pitched through 1917.




Another one I can't figure out - Don Schwall:

1965: 22-5, 2.68, 248 IP, 186 H, 93/194 BB/K
Won Cy Young Award!
Ratings: 8/8, 17/17, 9/10

1966: 12-1, 2.50, 126 IP, 110 H, 10/45 BB/K
Spends rest of year in AAA, goes 6-4 with a 2.20 ERA - No Injuries.
Ratings: 8/8, 17/17, 9/10

1967: 11-13, 2.90, 208 IP, 180 H, 65/120 BB/K
Rating: 8/8, 17/17, 10/10

1968: AAA - 8-13, 2.54, 181 IP, 145 H, 78/226 BB/K
No appearance in the majors this year!
Ratings: 7/8, 17/17, 10/10

At end of 1968, he is picked by the Expos in the expansion draft.

1969: After pitching 60 innings for the expansion Expos and compiling a 1-5 record with a 5.07 ERA, he gets traded back to Boston, where he goes 12-2, 2.78 for the rest of the year!
Ratings: 7/7, 17/17, 10/10

1970: 11-5, 3.10, 157 IP, 128 H, 84/102 BB/K
Appears to have been less-used starter (only 21 starts, no AAA time)
Ratings: 7/7, 17/17, 10/10

April 1971: Released with ratings of 7/7, 16/17, 10/10.

January 1, 1972: Retires with ratings of 6/7, 16/16, 10/10

I have not even a guess at an explanation for THAT one...

[Arles]

Screenshots look very clean and well organized. This looks like a great improvement by Markus.

[Huckleberry]

Obviously we all agree that the issues Ksyrup has pointed out are a serious problem. So let's see what we can come up with to suggest to Markus as a solution.

As TroyF astutely observed, a stats-only (or almost stats-only) decision-making algorithm can run into problems with a player that has had an extended slump early in the year. But doing it only based on ratings causes silliness like the Cy Young winner being released.

Seems like some sort of Bayesian adjustment to the current year's stats should be utilized. Let's take the example of using a system with 0% ratings, 50% this year's stats, 30% last year's stats, and 20% two years ago stats.

I think what should happen is that a minimum number of plate appearances (or innings pitched/batters faced) should be set for the current year stats to be calculated alone. That should be set to the weighted average of the previous two years' stats. If the player still has less than that amount then it will be adjusted with the other two years.

Example:

Garret Atkins Stats (I ignored HBP for this quick analysis so his OBP is lower):

Year   PA   AB    H  2B  3B  HR  BB  SO    BA   OBP   SLG
2006  695  602  198  48   1  29  79  76  .329  .399  .556
2007  684  605  182  35   1  25  67  96  .301  .364  .486
2008   37   35   10   2   0   0   1   5  .286  .324  .343

Obviously his 2008 numbers shouldn't be weighted at 50% all on their own yet. So what portion of that 50% should be his 2008 stats? The first thing I did was weight the plate appearances from the previous two seasons at the same ratio as the modifiers were set (60% last year and 40% two years ago). So the baseline plate appearances total before the 2008 stats are considered on their own was 688.4 PA. Beyond that, the calculation was to use the 2008 stats that have actually been accrued, and then fill in the rest of the plate appearances needed to get to 688.4 with stats from the previous two years. Once again, 60% of those stats came from 2007 and 40% came from 2006.

So currently, the stats that the game would use for Atkins' current year and last two years would look like this:

Year    PA    AB      H    2B    3B    HR    BB    SO     BA   OBP   SLG
2006   695   602    198    48     1    29    79    76   .329  .399  .556
2007   684   605    182    35     1    25    67    96   .301  .364  .486
2008** 688.4 606.3  188.3  40.0 0.9    25.2  68.9  88.3 .311  .374  .504

Just to show how the effect changes throughout the year, let's assume that Atkins keeps up his 2008 performance through 10 times as many plate appearances (370):

Year    PA    AB     H   2B  3B   HR   BB   SO     BA   OBP   SLG
2006   695   602   198   48   1   29   79   76   .329  .399  .556
2007   684   605   182   35   1   25   67   96   .301  .364  .486
2008   370   350   100   20   0    0   10   50   .286  .324  .343
2008** 688.4 629.3 187.1 38.6 0.5 12.3 43.2 90.7 .297  .335  .419

The 2008** line is of course the one that the game would use. And the effect obviously diminishes continuously and once the PAs for the current year reach the magic number, the effect completely disappears.

Just one way to do it.

[Alan T]

Every time I see one of these Cy Young pitchers suddenly tank in OOTP it makes me think of Len Barker, and that is not a good thing

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

Just one way to do it.

Wouldn't it be simple to just project a PECOTA-like weighted mean projection using the last 3 years of stats. As the plate appearances accumulate in the current season more weight is moved to the current year stats and weight is removed from the projection.

Project 250/330/425
Stats through 300 PA 300/400/500
At 300 PA the stats are weighted 60/40 and the AI is valuing a player somewhere around 280/365/470 (guessing as I'm lazy to actually calculate).

Now that I think about it projections might fix many of the games issues. How to value stats versus ratings. How to value players for trade/waiver. Have an internal rolling 5 year WARP projection for each player and that might make it much easier for the AI to properly value prospects and players with big contract.

Another possible way to fix the release of the Cy Young type player is to tie popularity to actually being on the field and not just in the organization. If Award winners become highly popular and you need them to be on the field to actually drive attendance/revenue then that gives the AI another reason to not release an all-star pitcher the next season after a quick ratings crash.

[Anthony]

why would i need to know my scout's BMI?

finally was able to see the screens, looks very modern. i like the added ratings for personality traits.

[Big Fo]

Looks good, the $15 discount basically confirms that I'll be pre-ordering. With this game and other recent announcements we could be looking at a nice year for sports management sims.

[watravaler]

^^^^^^
Second....haven't purchased the game since OOTP4, but I think it's time!

[Galaril]

Wow. I see the OOTP boards are still full of tools. I love this comment on the new interface screens shots, which in my opinion appear to be a huge improvement over the last interface:

"Just from the shots, it almost looks like Markus is trying to go for the look and feel of the older OOTP versions, rather than maintain what I considered to be a very sleek and slick looking interface."

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Wow. I see the OOTP boards are still full of tools. I love this comment on the new interface screens shots, which in my opinion appear to be a huge improvement over the last interface:

"Just from the shots, it almost looks like Markus is trying to go for the look and feel of the older OOTP versions, rather than maintain what I considered to be a very sleek and slick looking interface."

Yeah, there's been a major firestorm over the interface for a long, long time now.

I started a 6.5 vs. 2007 interface thread that generated a lot of discussion on the subject and may have influenced this interface design somewhat.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Wow. I see the OOTP boards are still full of tools. I love this comment on the new interface screens shots, which in my opinion appear to be a huge improvement over the last interface:

"Just from the shots, it almost looks like Markus is trying to go for the look and feel of the older OOTP versions, rather than maintain what I considered to be a very sleek and slick looking interface."

I agree, it's amazing in the difference the new screenies are being received between the FOFC and OOTP boards. It seems like the view here has been generally favorable and there is a lot of whining over there.

I don't get it, I think Markus is doing the right thing ...I was actually (cringe) considering getting BM09, but it looks like I will remain on the OOTP bandwagon after seeing these.