.400 Studios flunks again

[44Niners]

So now Basketball is being delayed, and call me crass if you want but I am skeptical about the “death” in the family. The Pre-release happens Wednesday, bugs pile up and all of a sudden we have a death which is causing the delay. Are we really expected to believe that not one single other person in the company could have launched the exact same game that was released on Wednesday?

Now we are being told football will be released at the end of December (a full two-months late) and that some of the ambitious features have been removed. What? Weren’t we just told a month ago that without all the ambitious features the game was incomplete and the delay was need to add them.

In the end, it has been one dishonest thing after another over there. Truly disappointing.

The games (at least feature wise and graphic wise) show so much promise, but they never seem to deliver. No wonder Markus didn’t want anything to do with them anymore.

[TroyF]

I doubt they'd lie about something like that. If they did and it ever got out, they'd be finished as a company.

TroyF

[Schmidty]

I hate to say it, but it really does look suspicious.

[Noop]

I dont know man but Total Pro Basketball is buggy I cant get pasted the draft. Oh well guess I'll never buy anything from them again as I took a leap of faith and fell flat on my face.... now I'm ugly.



noop

[44Niners]

Then why doesn't one of the other folks over there release the game today?

No reason not to.

[Joe Canadian]

Originally posted by 44Niners
So now Basketball is being delayed, and call me crass if you want but I am skeptical about the “death” in the family.

Seriously man... you're a moron.

[sabotai]

Originally posted by TroyF
I doubt they'd lie about something like that. If they did and it ever got out, they'd be finished as a company.

TroyF

I don't know Troy, the government tried to cover up Roswell, the Moon Landing hoax, the fact that the holocaust never happened, the Stone Masons, the Philadelphia Experiment and countless other things. All of them got out and they are stronger than ever.

[44Niners]

Originally posted by Joe Canadian
Seriously man... you're a moron.

Knew it was only a matter of time

[Joe Canadian]

Originally posted by 44Niners
Knew it was only a matter of time

Matter of time for what?... before I said something about such a ludacris statement?

[SlapBone]

Originally posted by Joe Canadian
Seriously man... you're a moron.

And disrespectful to boot. True or not, you always have to give someone the benefit of the doubt when they play the "death in the family" card.

[44Niners]

before the forum board courage showed up.

you have the exact same amount of evidence as I do - None.

So where is the intelligence in choosing one possibility over the other?

[SlapBone]

Originally posted by 44Niners
Then why doesn't one of the other folks over there release the game today?

No reason not to.

/Uses sign language motion with his hands

Because there are some bugs that need to be fixed and this man is the friggin programmer.

[Schmidty]

Originally posted by Joe Canadian
Matter of time for what?... before I said something about such a ludacris statement?

How is it a ludicrous statement? It's his opinion about a company that has a pretty poor track record so far. Cynical? Maybe. Moronic? No.

[CraigSca]

I have no doubts that there was a death in the family, and my condolences go out to Gary and his family. I think you would have to be the lowest of the low to make something like that up, so I'm not even going to go there.

That being said - I'm not sure what the difference is between the pre-release of a game and it's official release 2 days later. The excuses I've heard by some people on the boards (you should expect bugs because you're getting the game early) is a bunch of dreck. From what I've seen on the boards, it's obvious the game wasn't ready, and the timing of their family's misfortune (from a purely business point of view) is extremely untimely (an understatement).

Considering their track record, at BEST I'm taking a wait-n-see approach with any of their games.

[TroyF]

Originally posted by 44Niners
before the forum board courage showed up.

you have the exact same amount of evidence as I do - None.

So where is the intelligence in choosing one possibility over the other?

It's about compassion and giving someone the benefit of the doubt. It's about knowing that you've went through the same thing at some point in your life and knowing that you had to put some commitments on hold to deal with them.

It's about understanding the difference between a buggy game and LIFE.

TroyF

[SlapBone]

Originally posted by TroyF
It's about compassion and giving someone the benefit of the doubt. It's about knowing that you've went through the same thing at some point in your life and knowing that you had to put some commitments on hold to deal with them.

It's about understanding the difference between a buggy game and LIFE.

TroyF

I couldn't have said it better (but I did try).

[CraigSca]

Originally posted by 44Niners
before the forum board courage showed up.

you have the exact same amount of evidence as I do - None.

So where is the intelligence in choosing one possibility over the other?

No intelligence needed - but where's the respect and civility offered toward another human being?!

[Joe Canadian]

Originally posted by Schmidty
How is it a ludicrous statement? It's his opinion about a company that has a pretty poor track record so far. Cynical? Maybe. Moronic? No.

Wasn't talking about his statement regarding the company... I was talking about how he thinks that Gary made up the death in his family to delay the release of the game.

[44Niners]

But again the point is missed. Assuming that it is true there is not one reason that one of the other employees could have fired up the internet store and put the game out there.

If the manager of Wal-Mart dies tomorrow, they don’t close the store – someone else opens it. The suggested reason doesn’t fit the problem and the convenience of a death in the family is that everyone feels the need to “give the benefit of the doubt”

I can’t believe so many of you are ready to buy any excuse without any skepticism. Guess I am just more skeptical then most - especially on the "internet community”

[Coffee Warlord]

Hate the company. Love the company. Who cares.

Do not insult or belittle an employee of a company who has just lost someone close. Unless you walk up to the person who is purpoted to be dead and that person waves and says hello, then keep your mouth shut. To do otherwise just marks you as a complete and utter pile of shit.

[Joe Stallings]

Wow. A few weeks ago, a sim developer plays the "death in the family card" as you call it, right before a release, and is given a tremendous show of support and sympathy from this forum, the .400 forum and other game forums around the Internet.

A similar circumstance happens to one our people (and this *is* Gary Gorski's game, not a team of 10 or more developers) and we get "bugs pile up and all of a sudden we have a death which is causing the delay." This is just sorry, sorry, sorry.

Ben, I'll have to say, the quality of this board has really deteriorated over the past two years. I used to enjoy reading insights about sports games (and other things) here, but this is just another example of vile spewing which has, unfortunately, become all too common at FOFC.

I'll not frequent this community any longer.

Joe Stallings
.400 Software Studios

[TroyF]

Originally posted by 44Niners
But again the point is missed. Assuming that it is true there is not one reason that one of the other employees could have fired up the internet store and put the game out there.

If the manager of Wal-Mart dies tomorrow, they don’t close the store – someone else opens it. The suggested reason doesn’t fit the problem and the convenience of a death in the family is that everyone feels the need to “give the benefit of the doubt”

I can’t believe so many of you are ready to buy any excuse without any skepticism. Guess I am just more skeptical then most - especially on the "internet community”

And I can't believe you are so cynical you would accuse someone you don't know of making something this sad up.

This is a little different than a Wal-Mart. They've already admitted there are major issues in the game that need to be fixed. Why bother releasing a game they know will make people frustrated?

They screwed up again with a pre-release that was buggy. It'll cost them customers. They don't need to lose anymore by having a full release of the game when it isn't playable.

My guess is the game won't be released until the major patch is released with it. A death in the family will delay that patch.

Nobody here is ripping on you for bashing .400 studios. Many people have already raked them over the coals. They have a major PR problem right now that they'll have to address.

Ripping a company and accusing someone of making up the death of a relative are two very different things. It amazes me that you can't see that fact. (or are so cynical and heartless that you don't care about it)

TroyF

[SlapBone]

Originally posted by Joe Stallings
Wow. A few weeks ago, a sim developer plays the "death in the family card" as you call it, right before a release, and is given a tremendous show of support and sympathy from this forum, the .400 forum and other game forums around the Internet.

A similar circumstance happens to one our people (and this *is* Gary Gorski's game, not a team of 10 or more developers) and we get "bugs pile up and all of a sudden we have a death which is causing the delay." This is just sorry, sorry, sorry.

Ben, I'll have to say, the quality of this board has really deteriorated over the past two years. I used to enjoy reading insights about sports games (and other things) here, but this is just another example of vile spewing which has, unfortunately, become all too common at FOFC.

I'll not frequent this community any longer.

Joe Stallings
.400 Software Studios

I used the "death in the family" card reference. It was a really crude way of saying what I meant to say and that is: If someone tells me thay have had a death in the family, I believe them...forever. There is never a reason to question it and it is very cold-hearted and disrespectful to do so.

[Schmidty]

Originally posted by Joe Stallings
Wow. A few weeks ago, a sim developer plays the "death in the family card" as you call it, right before a release, and is given a tremendous show of support and sympathy from this forum, the .400 forum and other game forums around the Internet.

A similar circumstance happens to one our people (and this *is* Gary Gorski's game, not a team of 10 or more developers) and we get "bugs pile up and all of a sudden we have a death which is causing the delay." This is just sorry, sorry, sorry.

Ben, I'll have to say, the quality of this board has really deteriorated over the past two years. I used to enjoy reading insights about sports games (and other things) here, but this is just another example of vile spewing which has, unfortunately, become all too common at FOFC.

I'll not frequent this community any longer.

Joe Stallings
.400 Software Studios

You're right. I feel bad for insinuating what I did, and I apologize. I hope you won't stop visiting this board simply because a couple of people (including me) acted like heartless jackasses.

As I said before, I apologize.

[TroyF]

Originally posted by Joe Stallings
Wow. A few weeks ago, a sim developer plays the "death in the family card" as you call it, right before a release, and is given a tremendous show of support and sympathy from this forum, the .400 forum and other game forums around the Internet.

A similar circumstance happens to one our people (and this *is* Gary Gorski's game, not a team of 10 or more developers) and we get "bugs pile up and all of a sudden we have a death which is causing the delay." This is just sorry, sorry, sorry.

Ben, I'll have to say, the quality of this board has really deteriorated over the past two years. I used to enjoy reading insights about sports games (and other things) here, but this is just another example of vile spewing which has, unfortunately, become all too common at FOFC.

I'll not frequent this community any longer.

Joe Stallings
.400 Software Studios

If you are going to take one persons comments as an indictment of this entire board, I don't want you to bother coming back.

I didn't think it was possible anyone could offend me more in this thread than Niners.

You came pretty close. Someone who has posted a grand total of 250 times on this forum is what you judge all of us on?

Shame on you.

TroyF

[FBPro]

Originally posted by 44Niners
So now Basketball is being delayed, and call me crass if you want but I am skeptical about the “death” in the family. The Pre-release happens Wednesday, bugs pile up and all of a sudden we have a death which is causing the delay. Are we really expected to believe that not one single other person in the company could have launched the exact same game that was released on Wednesday?

Now we are being told football will be released at the end of December (a full two-months late) and that some of the ambitious features have been removed. What? Weren’t we just told a month ago that without all the ambitious features the game was incomplete and the delay was need to add them.

In the end, it has been one dishonest thing after another over there. Truly disappointing.

The games (at least feature wise and graphic wise) show so much promise, but they never seem to deliver. No wonder Markus didn’t want anything to do with them anymore.

[kcchief19]

Joe, that's unfortunate. I think that you're involvement here was good for FOFC and it was good for .400. It's regrettable that one or two people making ill-advised and inappropriate remarks have caused you to choose not to frequent FOFC. There are several thound members here and we are talking only about of couple of individuals. Despite our disagreements, I'll hope you reconsider.

That being said, I think you may want to follow a lesson Jim learned several years ago about being involved here too much or posting when you are upset that led to him recruiting Rick as a community liason. There were people here who ganged up terrible on Jim when he reacted to angry or illogical attacks. Look at your post -- you basically accused nearly everyone on this board of vile spewing -- you're wrong. This isn't much different from when Dan from EA accused everyone at FOFC of being pirates -- and I think we all know how well that made him and his company look. I do understand your anger, however. But just as there was no excuse for the comments made by a couple of users above, there was no excuse for attacking the thousand of members of FOFC, many of whom are past, present and future customers.

I hope you rethink this decision because you are a valuable member of FOFC.

[CraigSca]

Originally posted by Joe Stallings
Wow. A few weeks ago, a sim developer plays the "death in the family card" as you call it, right before a release, and is given a tremendous show of support and sympathy from this forum, the .400 forum and other game forums around the Internet.

A similar circumstance happens to one our people (and this *is* Gary Gorski's game, not a team of 10 or more developers) and we get "bugs pile up and all of a sudden we have a death which is causing the delay." This is just sorry, sorry, sorry.

Ben, I'll have to say, the quality of this board has really deteriorated over the past two years. I used to enjoy reading insights about sports games (and other things) here, but this is just another example of vile spewing which has, unfortunately, become all too common at FOFC.

I'll not frequent this community any longer.

Joe Stallings
.400 Software Studios

Given the circumstances and the timing I don't blame you. However, I think you know that the great majority of FOFC'ers do not share that person's opinion. I think it would a loss on both sides if you choose not to come back. In the meantime, I just wanted to reiterate my condolences to Gary and his family.

[sabotai]

Originally posted by 44Niners
If the manager of Wal-Mart dies tomorrow, they don’t close the store – someone else opens it. The suggested reason doesn’t fit the problem and the convenience of a death in the family is that everyone feels the need to “give the benefit of the doubt”

.400 is a small comany, not the #1 Fortune 500 company. I can assure you that if me, my mom or my dad died tomorrow, or anyone other family member who did not work there, my dad's shop would definatly not be open.

[SlapBone]

Originally posted by TroyF
If you are going to take one persons comments as an indictment of this entire board, I don't want you to bother coming back.

I didn't think it was possible anyone could offend me more in this thread than Niners.

You came pretty close. Someone who has posted a grand total of 250 times on this forum is what you judge all of us on?

Shame on you.

TroyF

Sorry Troy, your board owns no moral high-ground in this issue. What the guy said on this board is probably considered slander. I think the best thing would probably be that this thread is deleted and forgotten by everyone.

This is the second day in a row Joe has watched one of the posts on this board get out of hand.

[Schmidty]

Would I look like a pussy if I deleted all of my posts in this thread??

Probably. I really wish I had a filter sometimes.

[Tasan]

Originally posted by Joe Stallings
Wow. A few weeks ago, a sim developer plays the "death in the family card" as you call it, right before a release, and is given a tremendous show of support and sympathy from this forum, the .400 forum and other game forums around the Internet.

A similar circumstance happens to one our people (and this *is* Gary Gorski's game, not a team of 10 or more developers) and we get "bugs pile up and all of a sudden we have a death which is causing the delay." This is just sorry, sorry, sorry.

Ben, I'll have to say, the quality of this board has really deteriorated over the past two years. I used to enjoy reading insights about sports games (and other things) here, but this is just another example of vile spewing which has, unfortunately, become all too common at FOFC.

I'll not frequent this community any longer.

Joe Stallings
.400 Software Studios

I find this funny coming from the guy who runs the .400 boards. I guess over there though, they can censor all they want because its their boards.

Was what was said very tacky and totally uncalled for, yes. Does he have a right to say that, again, as bad as it sounded, yes. We should all band together and call him a jackass for it too, as everything has consequences. But to say that the quality of this board has gone downhill in the last two years, when you run the .400 boards, is a bit hypocritical.

[Ryan S]

Time to close this thread before things really get out of hand.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Joe Stallings
Ben, I'll have to say, the quality of this board has really deteriorated over the past two years. I used to enjoy reading insights about sports games (and other things) here, but this is just another example of vile spewing which has, unfortunately, become all too common at FOFC.

I'll not frequent this community any longer.

Joe Stallings
.400 Software Studios

Joe:

You know I'm a straight shooter. You called me out in public, and I'm going to respond. It is utterly ridiculous to indict me personally, or FOFC as a whole, for a thread in which ONE guy made an utterly classless and tasteless post, and NO ONE agreed with him 100%, as far as I can tell. Sorry that I can't be here 24 hours to babysit, but I can't. If I had been here, the thread would have been closed and 44Niners immediately suspended (which, by the way has happened now that I'm home from the Tucker game. I left the house at 5pm for the game, and just got back.)

What "vile spewing" are you referring to, Joe? You and Arlie have yourself have said how much you appreciate the honest feedback you get at FOFC. If you're going to throw all of that out the window because one guy chose to be an idiot, then you're not nearly as sharp a guy as I had given you credit for being. You need to rethink this one, because you've really missed the boat. Your presence here is valuable, and this place is valuable to you, if you'll use a little more logic and a little less emotion.

--Ben

[MizzouRah]

I was going to reply earlier, but the thread was locked (thank you Ryan), but Ben's post says it all.

I applaud that post, Ben.


Thank you,

Todd

(now I understand why you are a moderator and I'm a member)


Joe, most of us here want you posting here... that's a fact. In fact, I get almost all of my info about .400 studios from people such as Skydog, among others. I sincerely hope Gary is doing ok, him and his family are in my prayers.

[Ben E Lou]

..and by the way, in case anyone is wondering, the first post in this thread was of the rare type that if I had been here at the time, I would have simply deleted it before anyone had seen it. The post remains because it had been up for 5+ hours. It is silly to remove it now.

[Nyarlahotep]

I never thought a post here would upset me, but this one did twice. Even though I am not familiar with who Gary is I would like to offer my condolences to him and his family.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Nyarlahotep
I never thought a post here would upset me, but this one did twice. Even though I am not familiar with who Gary is I would like to offer my condolences to him and his family.

Make no mistake. 44Niners' post is of the uniquely vile type that simply will not be tolerated. He is going to spend Christmas in the penalty box for this one.

[kcchief19]

Originally posted by SlapBone
This is the second day in a row Joe has watched one of the posts on this board get out of hand.

Please.

[Arles]

Well, I am certainly disappointed in the comments by 44Niner and Schmidty on this. I think Joe was a little upset at the lack of respect and decency given to one of our developers. As was I. Still, I don't think both represent the general consensus on this forum.

We are all human beings in this business. I have no problem with criticism on .400 as a business or any of the games we make. But, try and keep things in perspective. Getting a game released a day or two later is no way in the same stratosphere as losing a loved one.

Ben, thanks for cleaning this up and I appreciate the many of the FOFC regulars (TroyF, Joe Canadian, Sabotai and others) that did the right thing and called this unfortunate post for what it was - moronic.

Arlie

[Eaglesfan27]

Not trying to kiss up or anything, but I just have to say I really agree with all of Skydog's posts in this thread. I was very offended by the initial post in this thread, but I was also offended by Joe's reaction. I can understand it as a primal emotional response, but I think if you apply logic to the situation Joe's response doesn't make sense. In any case, I just wanted to say good response Skydog and thanks to all of the moderators who make this board a really cool place to "hang out."

Edited to add: My sincere condolscences go out to Gary and his family and they will be in my prayers tonight.

[Chief Rum]

I feel 44Niners' post was way out of hand and ridiculous, and I am deeply ashamed he posted that here, as I take pride in the general intelligence and integrity of the posters in this community. I won't heap on him, because I feel SkyDog has done everything he can do in this situation and little more needs to be said.

Now, as to Joe's response, that I do need to respond to. That is utterly classless itself. 44Niners' takes the cake, but you, sir, did a fair number here yourself with that one. How dare you indict a whole community for the idiotic and stupid post of just one of its members? When TDCB first came out, I was one of the first to buy. I waited througha ll the problems, because I was confident you guys would make it a good product. I offered my opinions and support at your forums throughout that affair. I felt that there were some bad problems to begin with, but you guys worked very hard to fix that and I appreciated it and helped where I could. I know many other members of this community did the same.

So I have to ask, is this how you treat your customers? Your loyal fans? Take me off your customer list, please. I won't be buying from .400 Software anymore.

Chief Rum

[MrBug708]

I heart everyone

[Chief Rum]

Originally posted by Arles
Well, I am certainly disappointed in the comments by 44Niner and Schmidty on this. I think Joe was a little upset at the lack of respect and decency given to one of our developers. As was I. Still, I don't think both represent the general consensus on this forum.

We are all human beings in this business. I have no problem with criticism on .400 as a business or any of the games we make. But, try and keep things in perspective. Getting a game released a day or two later is no way in the same stratosphere as losing a loved one.

Ben, thanks for cleaning this up and I appreciate the many of the FOFC regulars (TroyF, Joe Canadian, Sabotai and others) that did the right thing and called this unfortunate post for what it was - moronic.

Arlie

dola,

Arlie, I still have high respect for you, sir, and I can't speak for anyone else, but I won't feel right about anything involving your company until Joe himself comes back here and apologizes.

He is the one who did wrong, and he needs to stand up for his own comments here (and take whatever comes with it) or own up for the post he made.

Personally, I would like to skin 44Niners alive. What a fucking moron, pardon my French. But he is gone, so there is only one transgressor left in my mind.

Chief Rum

[The_herd]

I think Joe posted out of anger, at least I hope so, I enjoy having him and the other .400 devs post here. Its good to hear their opinions on a board that isn't there own.

If you read the 1st few posts in this thread and how the thread appeared to be headed I can understand Joe getting pretty pissed, I'm sure Gary is a good friend of his. However, I don't think the way he went about things was the best way of handling it, but I'm sure given proper time to cool off that he'll be back.

I think 44Niners really should think before posting here as well. This is a community that discusses, criticizes, and praises text sims without pulling any punches. But there are things as a human being that you must consider before saying, and in this case posting on an internet forum. To put it bluntly, shit like that will not be tolerated by the people here.

[Joe Stallings]

Guys, I may have overreacted on my statement blanketing the entire FOFC community in the way I did. And I should not have singled out SkyDog as well. He cannot be expected to be on this forum 24/7 and he did do the correct thing when it was brought to his attention.

The main reason for my post was that I was extremely frustrated in this community for not jumping in any sooner. I logged in almost 25 minutes after this post was made and only a very few people had come in the defense of decency on this issue (even though numerous regulars were signed in). Many of the posters to that point were either indifferent (Noop or CraigSca) or going along with this rediculous reasoning (Schmidty).

IMO, if Jim would have been the developer in question and not Gary, there would have been 20 FOFC regulars in 5 minutes after the post calling out 44Niners for an awful post. I would have been in that group of 20 as well as it would be the right thing to do. But, since it was a developer at .400, it seemed that there was less outrage than their should have been.

To me it shouldn't matter if it's Jim, Gary, Arlie, Markus or anyone. If something like this happens where someone loses a loved one, the same standards should be there for everyone from a Human standpoint.

But, again, I did overreact and do not think 44Niners post does repesent the vast majority of FOF community members.

Joe Stallings
.400 Software Studios

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Joe Stallings
The main reason for my post was that I was extremely frustrated in this community for not jumping in any sooner. I logged in almost 25 minutes after this post was made and only a very few people had come in the defense of decency on this issue (even though numerous regulars were signed in). Many of the posters to that point were either indifferent (Noop or CraigSca) or going along with this rediculous reasoning (Schmidty).

IMO, if Jim would have been the developer in question and not Gary, there would have been 20 FOFC regulars in 5 minutes after the post calling out 44Niners for an awful post. I would have been in that group of 20 as well as it would be the right thing to do. But, since it was a developer at .400, it seemed that there was less outrage than their should have been.

In re-reading the thread, I think Joe might just have a valid point here guys.

[Hurst2112]

Very cool for coming back here. Classy as well.

Thank you Joe.

[GoldenEagle]

Joe - I agree 100% with you that in this siutation it does not matter who the developer is.

But I think you have to take into account that this is an FOF board and not a .400 studios board.

[The_herd]

Originally posted by SkyDog
In re-reading the thread, I think Joe might just have a valid point here guys.

I definitely think he has a valid point, but I do believe that as a community, the people here expect threads like that getting deleted before they get out of hand. However, in this case SD wasn't around to swoop in put a stop to this. I can't say for certain, but I do think most of the regular's here deserve the benefit of the doubt.