DDS: Pro Basketball 16 Info

[Gary Gorski]

Not sure if anyone has been keeping tabs on it but I'm getting close to releasing the next version in the pro basketball line.

I've done a couple dev diaries about new features

DDS: Pro Basketball 2016 Dev Diary – New Player Categories – Wolverine Studios

DDS: Pro Basketball 2016 Dev Diary #2 – A Look At What’s New – Wolverine Studios

DDS: Pro Basketball 2016 Dev Diary #3 - A New (Old) Era Dawns - Wolverine Studios

We also have a Twitter follow and retweet contest ending today for a free copy giveaway if anyone is interested. Here's the details

Would you like a chance to win the first copy of DDS: Pro Basketball 2016? – Wolverine Studios

[korme]

Just read those diaries. It sounds great, looking forward to it.

[wustin]

I've been following, very excited for its release.

[Gary Gorski]

Bump - edit for the last diary being posted

[jbergey22]

Big fan of the first diary and the improvements in regards to that. When is the expected release?

[wustin]

I hope this sim can emulate the volume of 3 pointers Steph Curry and GSW are taking lol. No amount of tweaking in NBA2k16 can get Curry to jack up 10 threes a game.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Big fan of the first diary and the improvements in regards to that. When is the expected release?

It is on pace to be released this week - finishing up bug testing and making sure everything is smooth.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

It is on pace to be released this week - finishing up bug testing and making sure everything is smooth.

Really looking forward to this, love the new additions!

[corbes]

Just an idle question: why aren't the ball actions simply drive, pass, and shoot?

Wouldn't the floor spacing help define where they were when they got the ball (thus eliminating need for separate categories for post-up, etc.) And then the shoot/pass and other player ratings help define what happens when they drive?

Six colors on the pie chart is a little hard to follow, esp. when a passing outcome is both the darkest and lightest color...

[TroyF]

Man, the Nuggets get screwed in real life and in simulations. The Rockets get Bird and then the Nuggets can get Michael Ray Richardson? ugh.

OK, some questions:

1) The lottery. If I start a career in 1976, will the lottery start in 1985? Does it start in 1976? Can I choose those options?

2) For players like Michael Ray who flamed out early due to drugs or injuries, how are they handled? Do we have a chance to see "what if?" What about Len Bias?

3) The early 80's was the golden era of the league in terms of scoring. Will the game reflect that with ratings or is it a change in the engine? Can I choose to play 80's style basketball forever?


Enjoyed the developer diaries. I just need to make sure that Bird kid comes to Denver this time.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by corbes

Just an idle question: why aren't the ball actions simply drive, pass, and shoot?

Wouldn't the floor spacing help define where they were when they got the ball (thus eliminating need for separate categories for post-up, etc.) And then the shoot/pass and other player ratings help define what happens when they drive?

Six colors on the pie chart is a little hard to follow, esp. when a passing outcome is both the darkest and lightest color...

Well I felt this was a better way of giving you information to make the players feel more real. A guy who primarily catches and shoots is different than a guy who shoots a ton of pull up jumpers - both "shoot" but have totally different games and since there's no 3D representation at least this lets you have a picture of what kind of player you have.

Besides for "drive" you have players who are driving for their own shot and players who drive to create something for a teammate - I don't believe that all players operate the same when they drive and that they are just making whatever the "right" decision is in terms of pass v. shoot. Some guys have no intention of shooting while others don't even realize they have teammates out there.

That impacts "pass" too because what I am displaying as pass is pretty much situations where the player did not attempt to make any sort of play with the ball as opposed to when he drives and passes. A drive and pass is much more valuable because there is the chance for a foul and the players will open up a higher percentage shot for a teammate.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Man, the Nuggets get screwed in real life and in simulations. The Rockets get Bird and then the Nuggets can get Michael Ray Richardson? ugh.

OK, some questions:

1) The lottery. If I start a career in 1976, will the lottery start in 1985? Does it start in 1976? Can I choose those options?

2) For players like Michael Ray who flamed out early due to drugs or injuries, how are they handled? Do we have a chance to see "what if?" What about Len Bias?

3) The early 80's was the golden era of the league in terms of scoring. Will the game reflect that with ratings or is it a change in the engine? Can I choose to play 80's style basketball forever?


Enjoyed the developer diaries. I just need to make sure that Bird kid comes to Denver this time.

1. The game is run in a modern day setting - contracts are in todays dollars, same free agency rules as of today, 3 pointers. Starting the lottery later on is kind of a fun idea as would be other things like the introduction of the 3 point line but I see those as building onto this in a future release. Maybe even a frozen envelope setting

2. The game will not artificially shorten anyone's timeline but it also only knows numbers. There is some randomness built in but not like could Sam Bowie have been better than Jordan or something like that. Maybe a guy like Greg Oden could be a star but if a player had high expectations but injuries or other cut him short from proving those on the court at any time the game won't know he was supposed to be something special. Bias never played so the game has no stats to generate him on.

3. There is not an era control - all players are judged in a modern day setting - again this is something that could be considered down the road but for now it was quite a large task to try and get all the basics down especially when the sort of stats used to generate the modern day roster didn't exist back then (in some cases because they didn't even happen like 3 pointers early on)

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by wustin

I hope this sim can emulate the volume of 3 pointers Steph Curry and GSW are taking lol. No amount of tweaking in NBA2k16 can get Curry to jack up 10 threes a game.

Sorry I missed this comment - I just simmed part of a season and Golden State was taking 32.5 threes per game and Curry actually needs to be tuned down because he was taking 11.

The main thing is yes the sim can handle players who take copious amount of three pointers

[heybrad]

Looking forward to this.

[Sporkimata]

I need a new sports sim. Can't wait for it.

[Icy]

Great news! Looking forward for it!

[Groundhog]

I'll be picking this up. I've grown to appreciate the difference in style and focus between DDS:PB and FBPB over the years, and while I lean towards the FB style of play myself, I always get more than my money's worth from your titles.

[Gary Gorski]

Thanks guys - working on last minute tweaks today. If all goes well you should see it tomorrow or Friday.

[MizzouRah]

I love Gary's games.. I do get a bit frustrated at the lack of patching at times though.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

I love Gary's games.. I do get a bit frustrated at the lack of patching at times though.

I do think it's a good point. Small patches here and there are always better, even if you're getting the same amount of support over a few big patches. I do wonder if the move to Steam does slow that down at times.

[Izulde]

So I was running through a test simulation of the 1976 season, of course taking over the Lakers. The first thing I did was trade Lucius Allen for Norm Van Lier, to get a better passing point guard in the lineup.

We were sitting at 6-9, and I'm like no team with Kareem should be a mid-tier squad. I looked at the Advanced Stats and saw our offensive numbers were ghastly. Kermit Washington and Kareem were legit down low, so I looked for a high % shooter SG. Lo and behold, Fred Brown was a SG hitting 50.5% of his shots. Earl Tatum and some bench dude went bye, and hello, Fred. We instantly caught fire, and never looked mid-tier the rest of the season.

It was a tight battle between us and Portland the rest of the way for the division. We lost it, and ended up the #3 seed in the playoffs. I tried making a trade at the deadline for a backup center to Kareem, but couldn't close the deal on anyone.

Cue the playoffs. First round against Detroit, and we win 4-1. Kareem had a monster statline in Game 2, the best I've ever seen in a DDS game. Ever.



Round 2, against Portland of all teams. We were down 1-3, but came roaring back for a 4-3 massive upset, riding Kareem and tight team defense. Kareem destroyed Bill Walton for 31 points, 34 rebounds, and 10 blocks in one game. Over in the East bracket, the Spurs stunned Dr. J's 76ers.

And we got absolutely demolished in the Finals 0-4. Between eventual All-NBA 2nd Team and All-Defense 2nd Team Larry Kenon, George "Iceman" Gervin, and All-Defense 2nd Team Mike Gale, we just couldn't come up with any answers.

Kareem ended up taking MVP and Defensive Player of the Year honors, posting 26 points, 16.4 rebounds, 1.5 steals, and 4 blocks per game. I forgot to save the game so I could get his playoff numbers, but they were even more insane, I'm guessing.

[Sporkimata]

I shall do my usual and bring back the Sonic's. Woot!

[Gary Gorski]

Shared this on my forum so thought I would mention it as well in regards to Tim's post

Did you know...in the 1976 season Kareem AVERAGED 34.6 PPG, 17.7 RPG and 3.5 BPG in the playoffs and that Kareem actually had 34 rebounds in a game vs Detroit on 12/14/1975?

Clearly he had Detroit's number

[Gary Gorski]

Also as a follow up the thing I liked best about this was a comment Tim had made to me. "So fit really does matter in this version."

I am really glad that he could very easily in just one trade see how player fit could impact the entire team. Team building is more important than ever in this version.

[dubb93]

I'm very excited about this game. Kudos for taking a huge risk and adding a feature that I had never thought of (and now I'm not sure I could do without)! Can't wait to get my hands on this and play around with the new player categories.

I guess my only questions would be will this be on Steam at launch? If so will the Steam version get the patches the same time as the one bought from your store?

EDIT: Good call on the historical play.

[Gary Gorski]

The chances of the game being on Steam are very slim - definitely zero at launch. The guys we worked with to get the other ones on there are terrific guys but it just doesn't work out great for us with the basketball games.

Also PM coming your way dubb...

[MizzouRah]

DDS: Pro Basketball 2016 Dev Diary #3 – A New (Old) Era Dawns – Wolverine Studios

This is one hell of an awesome feature!!!

[Gary Gorski]

Still tweaking some things and adding others (like additional in draft commentary to freshen it up) - for anyone interested I think its looking like it will have to be tomorrow for release. Hope to see you at the site!

[MizzouRah]

Discount for FOFC members, especially ones that always buy the pro game? LOL!!!!! Congrats on the release!

[Balldog]

So, is the only historical replay option to start in 1976?

[Gary Gorski]

Yes that is how the replay option is setup

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Yes that is how the replay option is setup

Hmmmm, So that means I try really hard for the three years David Thompson has his peak, then I tank the hell out of the next four so I get Jordan. Got it.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Yes that is how the replay option is setup

Just curious if down the road we may be able to start with other years, such as 1985 so I can get Stockton and Malone a center?

Or maybe I just grab McHale in 1980 and let him play the post or take Sampson in '83 and hope his knees don't explode.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Just curious if down the road we may be able to start with other years, such as 1985 so I can get Stockton and Malone a center?

Or maybe I just grab McHale in 1980 and let him play the post or take Sampson in '83 and hope his knees don't explode.

That's where the replay function is going to need some tweaking. I love the idea. I'm going to buy the game when it comes out and dabble with this mode.

That said, outside of the lottery screwing the Nuggets repeatedly over and over and over again, there are 2 major defining points for the franchise:

1) David Thompson finding cocaine and instead of developing into a superstar, he's a role player at 27.

2) LaPhonso Ellis legs giving out on him. Seriously, this guy was going to battle Malone as the best PF in the west for years. I don't think anyone realized just how good this guy was going to be. Here is a quick sample for those who never saw how athletic he was: LaPhonso Ellis with the Monster Block! - YouTube


As the game is going strictly by stats and not ratings, Phons will never become the superstar. Not blaming Gary for this as it's a massive undertaking and getting ratings for guys like this would be brutal and ridiculously subjective. (I'm sure there would be a Harold Minor fan somewhere wanting him to become a superstar too, I get it)

So it'll be a mode I dabble with, but I'll be trying to get the Nuggets into the finals with their current roster. (ie: I'm going to keep the young centers and blow up everything else as quickly as possible)

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Just curious if down the road we may be able to start with other years, such as 1985 so I can get Stockton and Malone a center?

Or maybe I just grab McHale in 1980 and let him play the post or take Sampson in '83 and hope his knees don't explode.

Yes eventually - the biggest issue is that I wanted the year you started in to be accurate so players are on their correct team, they should have their correct jersey number, they have bio info, the real guy coaching that team is in charge with his career wins up to that point in tact...thankfully I had some help in accumulating that information and that was for ONE season.

Being able to start at any point isnt necessarily an issue because all of the rookies will be in there for the right draft and the game follows the year date to prompt for expansion and such but I don't have an easy way to automate how to generate any one individual year. All that is going to have to be done piece by piece over time in order for it to be accurate.

I suspect unless I stumble into some amazing database the next progression of the idea will be to have a certain number of seasons you could choose to start in and letting you go from there. Either that or an option where you could start in any season but the coaches are made up, some bio info like jerseys are made up, if they played for two teams that season they would be arbitrarily placed on one....that sort of thing. This is just step one of this feature. I know its going to need tweaks and such as it progresses and certainly the feedback of the players on what they want to see or don't mind sacrificing will be important in shaping it.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by TroyF

As the game is going strictly by stats and not ratings, Phons will never become the superstar. Not blaming Gary for this as it's a massive undertaking and getting ratings for guys like this would be brutal and ridiculously subjective. (I'm sure there would be a Harold Minor fan somewhere wanting him to become a superstar too, I get it)

There's a big difference in those two that the game will realize though - like you said it knows stats, not projections or ratings or opinions. Miner's best season he averaged 10.5/1.5/2.5

Ellis averaged 21.9/2.4/7 with almost a steal and block per in 1996-97

The game is going to look over all of their stats and make a decision on how good it could allow the player to become with a randomness built in too. Ellis proved in numbers he was a very good player so there's certainly a chance in some of your seasons he could prove out to be an all-star type player.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

There's a big difference in those two that the game will realize though - like you said it knows stats, not projections or ratings or opinions. Miner's best season he averaged 10.5/1.5/2.5

Ellis averaged 21.9/2.4/7 with almost a steal and block per in 1996-97

The game is going to look over all of their stats and make a decision on how good it could allow the player to become with a randomness built in too. Ellis proved in numbers he was a very good player so there's certainly a chance in some of your seasons he could prove out to be an all-star type player.

Fair enough. Keep in mind you are talking to a raving Nuggets fan whose dreams have been crushed repeatedly throughout history. Maybe a "replay" is something I don't want to get involved in unless I have a lot of alcohol at the table anyway.

The sky was the limit for that guy. And again, I'm not blaming you on any of the ratings/stats thing.

[heybrad]

Can you randomize what year the rookies come into the draft if you start in 1976. I'm guessing no because that's not necessarily historical but without it you have such a huge advantage knowing who is coming every year.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Yes eventually - the biggest issue is that I wanted the year you started in to be accurate so players are on their correct team, they should have their correct jersey number, they have bio info, the real guy coaching that team is in charge with his career wins up to that point in tact...thankfully I had some help in accumulating that information and that was for ONE season.

Being able to start at any point isnt necessarily an issue because all of the rookies will be in there for the right draft and the game follows the year date to prompt for expansion and such but I don't have an easy way to automate how to generate any one individual year. All that is going to have to be done piece by piece over time in order for it to be accurate.

I suspect unless I stumble into some amazing database the next progression of the idea will be to have a certain number of seasons you could choose to start in and letting you go from there. Either that or an option where you could start in any season but the coaches are made up, some bio info like jerseys are made up, if they played for two teams that season they would be arbitrarily placed on one....that sort of thing. This is just step one of this feature. I know its going to need tweaks and such as it progresses and certainly the feedback of the players on what they want to see or don't mind sacrificing will be important in shaping it.

Great news, I am going to have a lot of fun with this mode regardless, but still happy to hear there may be some more starting points down the road. Now quit typing on here and get this puppy out!!

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Fair enough. Keep in mind you are talking to a raving Nuggets fan whose dreams have been crushed repeatedly throughout history. Maybe a "replay" is something I don't want to get involved in unless I have a lot of alcohol at the table anyway.

The sky was the limit for that guy. And again, I'm not blaming you on any of the ratings/stats thing.

My collection of LaPhonso Ellis rookie cards would agree with you

The replay thing is something people have wanted out of the game for a few years now and I fully admit this is an idea in its infancy. I think its going to be fun and I think there are going to be many times when you or me or anyone else playing it will say "hey, I wish it did x".

Over time those "x's" will get added and it will get more fleshed out and I will devise better and better ways to generate the players and so on. There's been a number of things I've thought about just in reading responses here and typing like allowing for any year start if you don't mind some additional fiction involved or maybe if you wanted to allowing any year's rookie class to be imported to a league (so start in 2015 and bring Jordan, Bird, Magic etc into the game). Some things will be simple additions - others will happen over versions of the game. Either way I'm glad people are interested in the game and hopefully continuing to push it forward so that it can become as good as FM or OOTP or something like that.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by heybrad

Can you randomize what year the rookies come into the draft if you start in 1976. I'm guessing no because that's not necessarily historical but without it you have such a huge advantage knowing who is coming every year.

No but you don't really have any advantage in knowing. First the AI is going to value the players in the game and not in real life so its going to know to pick Jordan, not Bowie. Also there is a bit of randomness built in when creating the players so players may come out somewhat better or worse than you expect (not drastically like Jordan is going to be a scrub or something).

Besides even if you randomize the years you still know which players typically should have the most success and the player pool is set before the season starts so if you're thinking you won't know when to tank for player X you'll know who is in the draft pool before you start anyways so you could tank if you wanted to (of course you still have to actually win the lottery - right Sam Hinkie?)

[korme]

The advantage is being able to stock up multiple 1984 draft picks because you know Jordan will be coming, the cpu will not know something like that when your league is in 1981. And there's nothing wrong with that.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by korme

The advantage is being able to stock up multiple 1984 draft picks because you know Jordan will be coming, the cpu will not know something like that when your league is in 1981. And there's nothing wrong with that.

That is true although to make it work you either have to be able to predict which good teams will be lousy 3 years from now and give up decent assets for the picks, give up even better assets for the picks from bad teams (hoping your good assets don't turn them into playoff teams) or be really lousy yourself and of course in whatever scenario actually win the lottery. If you're playing with the get fired option on you might not be around to pick MJ and The Dream

[Gary Gorski]

Everything uploading to the site and being turned on now - looking forward to everyone getting a chance to look at it. You can, as always, download the game files and play them as a demo too of course.

[Groundhog]

I've only had a chance to quickly fire it up and click around the UI, but one thing I've spotted off the bat is that if you open a dialog - 'main' icon to exit the league, credits, etc. - when you close it again the main window doesn't redraw itself and the dialog is still visible until you click on the part of the screen where the dialog was.

[MizzouRah]

Just purchased.. I've never been a historical text sim player, but I'm going to try this mode out since I did follow basketball back in the 80's.

[BYU 14]

Really enjoying this at the moment, now just to balance my precious free time between this, X-Com 2 and Fallout 4

[TroyF]

It's been awhile since I've played a basketball sim. the UI is frustrating for me only because I still don't know where everything is.

I started 2015 about 10 times last night and quick simmed through the draft. Some thoughts:

1) You CAN find sleepers in the second round. I found a guy who was actually outperforming the #5 pick in the draft. Find your positions of need and scout those guys for your #1 pick, but make sure you save some visits for the second round.

2) The CPU seems to only offer trades during the draft. Overall the trades are very fair, with a few wonky ones thrown in. (both ways) Only annoying thing I found is that after you draft a player in the second round, the CPU will offer you lower picks for the guy you just selected. (Example: I pick a PG wiht the 35th pick, the Pistons immediately offer me the 42nd pick for that player straight up) Minor annoyance as you don't even have to view the trade.

3) Watch out for teammate fights if you have that option turned on. They can get annoying at times.

4) I haven't looked at the stats other than the Nuggets, but I don't see anything out of the ordinary at first glance.

5) In the twenty seasons, the Warriors won most of the titles. The Thunder got a couple, Cleveland got one as well. The oddball? One year the Wizards took it all. (I start every year with the randomize potential, so that may have something to do with it)

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I've only had a chance to quickly fire it up and click around the UI, but one thing I've spotted off the bat is that if you open a dialog - 'main' icon to exit the league, credits, etc. - when you close it again the main window doesn't redraw itself and the dialog is still visible until you click on the part of the screen where the dialog was.

Is there any one particular screen this happens on for you? Can you give me your screen res and O/S?

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by TroyF

It's been awhile since I've played a basketball sim. the UI is frustrating for me only because I still don't know where everything is.

3) Watch out for teammate fights if you have that option turned on. They can get annoying at times.

This is an area I would love feedback on from everyone. Obviously you can turn this option off when starting a league but for those who like this sort of thing is there a better way to handle it? Should the sim not stop for it but popup some kind of other notification? Should the amount of incidents be turned down but make it really devastating when they happen as opposed to small declines in relationship and chemistry with each one? All thoughts are welcome on how to improve the feature.

Thank you for the nice words about the other areas you like and think are done well. It's always good to hear what works well too