2019 MLB Thread

[ISiddiqui]

Interesting, on reddit (/r/baseball) people are PISSED at how lenient this penalty is, saying it's basically a slap on the wrist in exchange for a championship.

[SirFozzie]

Hinch and Lunhow have both been fired.

[ISiddiqui]

Well that's a good result... well done Astros. Now hopefully no one else hires them.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Interesting, on reddit (/r/baseball) people are PISSED at how lenient this penalty is, saying it's basically a slap on the wrist in exchange for a championship.

I don't know about it being lenient but it was in exchange for a championship isn't it? I am guessing those people are looking for an NCAA style stripping of the title and removal of victories which of course was never going to happen.

Kudos to Manfred and MLB for laying down the hammer to match the talk of the seriousness of the crime.

[tarcone]

I think its fair. Well done MLB

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I don't know about it being lenient but it was in exchange for a championship isn't it? I am guessing those people are looking for an NCAA style stripping of the title and removal of victories which of course was never going to happen.

I think their objection was that any organization would take that punishment for a championship. Now that was before the firing of Hinch and Lunhow - so who knows if that was 'part of the deal'. Most people thought Hinch and Lunhow should have been banned.

[Arles]

I still can't believe AJ Hinch doubled down on all this a year ago:

It was reported by SNY's Andy Martino that the Yankees were not happy about a whistling sound coming from the Astros' dugout in Game 1. Martino then confirmed that an MLB investigation found no wrong doing by the Astros.

On Thursday, Astros manager AJ Hinch as about sign stealing on the first question of his pregame interview, and Hinch had plenty to say on the topic.
"Man, I'm glad you asked that question, and I thought it would come up today. We talked about this the other day, and in reality, it's a joke, but Major League Baseball does a lot to ensure the fairness of the game," said Hinch. "There's people everywhere, if you go through the dugouts and the clubhouses and the hallways, there's like so many people around that are doing this. Then when I get contacted about some questions about whistling, it made me laugh because it's ridiculous. Had I known that it would take something like that to set off the Yankees or any other team, we would have practiced it in spring training, because apparently it works even when it doesn't happen."

Little did we know Hinch had been doing exactly that (on a much larger scale) for years...

[spleen1015]

The most disappointing thing about all of this to me is the Astros for the last 3-4 years is a really cool story. They built through the draft, used home grown talent and traded for Verlander who appeared to be showing a sign of age. Then went and won a couple of WS.

I don't think this had a large impact on them winning, but I can't be too sure about that either.

Now them along with the Red Sox will always get called cheaters just like the Patriots.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I think their objection was that any organization would take that punishment for a championship. Now that was before the firing of Hinch and Lunhow - so who knows if that was 'part of the deal'. Most people thought Hinch and Lunhow should have been banned.

Tbh, that was my reaction prior to the firings as well.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Interesting to note that Hinch and the GM were "banned until the day after the final game of the 2020 World Series despite neither having involvement with the scheme -- and Hinch twice protesting by trying to damage the monitor used in the scheme. "

Not suspending the players involved really makes this kind of a head scratcher in a way.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Interesting to note that Hinch and the GM were "banned until the day after the final game of the 2020 World Series despite neither having involvement with the scheme -- and Hinch twice protesting by trying to damage the monitor used in the scheme. "

Not suspending the players involved really makes this kind of a head scratcher in a way.

Manfred addressed it, Jon. Basically he said:

- All the players were guilty in some way
- He could not determine which player benefited more than another
- He did not want to punish other clubs who have sign some of these players.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Manfred addressed it, Jon. Basically he said:

- All the players were guilty in some way
- He could not determine which player benefited more than another
- He did not want to punish other clubs who have sign some of these players.

Would that same reasoning apply to other violations?

I mean, if someone violated another policy/rule -- PEDs, social matters, whatever -- while playing for Team A, don't they get suspended even if they've signed for Team B?

[stevew]

Making every member of the 2017 Astros donate all their playoff shares to something would be a good start.

[RainMaker]

I think it's a light sentence for the organization. Would you trade a couple meddling draft picks and $5 million for a World Series? I guarantee the owner made far more off that run than the fine imposed.

You can argue the suspensions should be longer, especially when compared to Rose. Tough to see why betting and blatant cheating wouldn't fall under the same category.

Surprised the owner wasn't suspended like they did with Schott. Also that no players were punished at all.

Doesn't seem like much of a deterrent at all in the future. Why wouldn't you cheat if you were a player?

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Would that same reasoning apply to other violations?

I mean, if someone violated another policy/rule -- PEDs, social matters, whatever -- while playing for Team A, don't they get suspended even if they've signed for Team B?

I think that is the thing. It was not someone, it was everyone.

Would they suspend an entire team of players for testing positive for PEDs? That is a good question.

[JPhillips]

Has MLB suspended someone for a years old violation?

[MrBug708]

I demand a response from JeeberD!

[MrBug708]

In all seriousness, I feel like for the fans, it's like the meme "Doesn't Matter, Had Sex" where what happened means more than anything else that has transpired.

[Swaggs]

This feels like a pretty huge offense against the integrity of the game. I think it seems lazy to not punish individual players.

Other teams and players’ careers were altered as a result, so I think it will be interesting to see if there are lawsuits from other teams (no idea if that is legally possible), other teams’ fans, players who feel like their careers may have been impacted (there was an article a few months ago about pitchers who had abnormally poor games against them and then taken off active rosters, so they potentially lost service time and/or opportunities). Teams like the Dodgers and division rivals are spending hundreds of millions of dollars in operating expenses, so I feel like they have pretty legitimate gripes (when you consider other lawsuits we hear about with much less at stake).

[Lathum]

I wonder if the casinos will go after Mattress Mack. Or the insurance company.

Kidding

Kind of.

[miami_fan]

I still don't know how it is possible to suspend one member of the team if you are not going to suspend all the members of the 2017 Astros. Watching them celebrate the championship this morning did leave me with the feeling that something punitive should happen to the players. That led me to this question that I have no solid answer for due my lack of understanding of baseball culture.

Are any members of the 2017 Astros going to get into the Hall of Fame or are they going to be treated like the steroid guys?

[molson]

Maybe its because the players aren't directly doing the cheating, they're just reaping the benefits of it? (Assuming I'm not misunderstanding what actually happened here).

If you're a player and you're told that this is the setup, this is what this audible signal means when you're at bat, etc. - you could try to block that out, or you could report it. But does baseball even have a a requirement that players report rules violations committed by their coaches and other management?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

Maybe its because the players aren't directly doing the cheating, they're just reaping the benefits of it? (Assuming I'm not misunderstanding what actually happened here).

Well, player Beltran was instrumental in setting it up and players were doing the banging on the trash can (best I can tell)

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Hinch and Lunhow have both been fired.

Heard this on the radio this morning but doesn’t this move basically circumvent the “penalty”. If Houston is now free to hire a manager and GM outside of the organization did they really get punished for 2020?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

Heard this on the radio this morning but doesn’t this move basically circumvent the “penalty”. If Houston is now free to hire a manager and GM outside of the organization did they really get punished for 2020?

Eh, no more or less free than they were before firing them.

I mean, you could reassign an interim and then hire someone else to fill their job, change the responsibilities, etc etc. The organization wasn't under a hiring ban afaik so it really doesn't change things much that I can see.

[albionmoonlight]

I also imagine that firing them was actually something that MLB strongly encouraged the Astros to do.

[SackAttack]

John Coppolella got banned for life over the bonus money shenanigans Atlanta was engaged in trying to sign international talent.

Luhnow and Hinch got suspended for a year for knowing this shit was going on, in some cases directing it, and doing nothing to stop it. Ignore their protestations of innocence and "I am not a cheater." That's hollow-ass bullshit.

Their "win at all costs" mentality led them to pursue victory in ways that undermined the integrity of the sport several orders of magnitude worse than "how can I pay this prospect more money than the rules allow?" and they got off with a joke.

The fine? Whatever. It's the most Manfred could impose anyway. I don't care.

The draft picks? Any owner in baseball would trade four draft picks for a World Series. Whatever. Unless you're gonna impose the death penalty and take away multiple top picks every season for a generation, that doesn't matter.

What DOES matter is that the baseball ops department should have been burned to the fucking ground. Bans for Luhnow and his lieutenants, and multi-season suspensions for the rest. Especially if Crane was just gonna fire them anyway and go "we do things the RIGHT way harumph harumph," you salt that motherfucking earth.

One season? Suck my dick, Manfred.

[kingfc22]

I agree firing them was the right move for all involved. However, if the punishment from MLB was to "hinder" the Astros at the GM and Manager level via a year long suspension, should they be allowed to hire external candidates for the 2020 season.

[albionmoonlight]

I figured that the suspensions were punishments for the individuals.

The draft picks and fine were punishments for the team.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by molson

Maybe its because the players aren't directly doing the cheating, they're just reaping the benefits of it? (Assuming I'm not misunderstanding what actually happened here).

If you're a player and you're told that this is the setup, this is what this audible signal means when you're at bat, etc. - you could try to block that out, or you could report it. But does baseball even have a a requirement that players report rules violations committed by their coaches and other management?

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Well, player Beltran was instrumental in setting it up and players were doing the banging on the trash can (best I can tell)

Listening to a baseball podcast today, it sounds like the players were basically given immunity so that they could give all the details of the scheme. So “player” Beltran falls into that category. Also, Manfred had no desire for a protracted battle with the union.

[BishopMVP]

People understand stealing signs more, but the spin rate stuff is even more interesting to me. Plus I like how all of this seemed to be more or less an open secret amongst players on all teams with how much player movement there is these days, and how Trevor Bauer is playing the role of Jose Canseco in this, except he's still an active player & will be playing against (and probably with) some of the players he is accusing.

[Fidatelo]

I will caveat this statement with the fact that I've never played baseball so I have no understanding of unwritten codes and whatnot. But, I don't get why it's ok to steal signs the 'old fashioned way' but not ok to do it with cameras. That's like saying it's ok to rob a bank but only if you can do it the same way they did in the 20's.


Also, why not make it all irrelevant by, I don't know, using more technology? Give the pitchers and catchers a way to communicate without having to use hand signals. You could probably just give them each an Apple Watch. But oh yeah, those didn't exist when Babe Ruth played so I guess it's not ok?

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

I will caveat this statement with the fact that I've never played baseball so I have no understanding of unwritten codes and whatnot. But, I don't get why it's ok to steal signs the 'old fashioned way' but not ok to do it with cameras. That's like saying it's ok to rob a bank but only if you can do it the same way they did in the 20's.


Also, why not make it all irrelevant by, I don't know, using more technology? Give the pitchers and catchers a way to communicate without having to use hand signals. You could probably just give them each an Apple Watch. But oh yeah, those didn't exist when Babe Ruth played so I guess it's not ok?

This is as old as the game itself and it comes down to "cheating with honor" In 1900 The Phillies had a wire rigged in Baker Bowl that went from the scoreboard to the 3rd base coaches box. A person in the scoreboard would relay electric shocks to the 3rd base coach based on signs from the catcher, who would then tip the batter.

This was considered blasphemous because it was not done by sheer mental aptitude in the field of play, in which all teams/players could cheat on a level playing field. It has always been okay as long as everyone does it the same way. If one team finds a way to gain an advantage, then it is not fair, kind of like if everyone pitched from 60 feet 6 inches, but one team pitched from 56 feet.

The White Sox used to have an employee in the scoreboard with binoculars in the 40's and 50's that would turn a light on based on the pitch. The Giants had the same and would utilize the cigarette on the scoreboard to tip signs. In fact using a a spyglass or binoculars was not even made illegal until 1961, but again, the owners and players didn't complain because everyone could do it. So if a runner or base coach can figure out signs, all good. If you use something I can't use, bad. Kind of like the do as I say not as I do method of parenting and one of the quirks of the game that people both love and hate.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

I will caveat this statement with the fact that I've never played baseball so I have no understanding of unwritten codes and whatnot. But, I don't get why it's ok to steal signs the 'old fashioned way' but not ok to do it with cameras. That's like saying it's ok to rob a bank but only if you can do it the same way they did in the 20's.


Also, why not make it all irrelevant by, I don't know, using more technology? Give the pitchers and catchers a way to communicate without having to use hand signals. You could probably just give them each an Apple Watch. But oh yeah, those didn't exist when Babe Ruth played so I guess it's not ok?

The problem isn't really the sign stealing at this point. The problem is the commissioner told all teams to stop using the tech to steal signs and the Astros and Red Sox are proven to have continued after that.

It is the same with the Saint and Bountygate. They were punished because it continued after they were told to stop.

[cartman]

Cora and the Sox have "mutually agreed to part ways"

[spleen1015]

Red Sox didn't really have another option at this point.

[jbergey22]

After endless days of nothing to report. Josh Donaldson agrees to sign with the Twins. Very surprising to see the Twins spend like that. 4 year deal in the 100 million range. Havent seen the exact number.

[NobodyHere]

A Boston area coach has been caught up in a cheating scandal?

I'm shocked, shocked I tell ya!

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

A Boston area coach has been caught up in a cheating scandal?

I'm shocked, shocked I tell ya!

He was a product of the Dodgers system so it's totally their fault!