The Trump Presidency – 2016

[tarcone]

The West went in and drew lines on a map. That was stupid. This is religious tribalism as it has been for thousands of years. Why would anyone think this region would suddenly fall into a nationalistic type of thinking.

Dumb. Erase the lines, let the religions sort themselves out like they have forever.

[kingfc22]

So what makes Trump’s twitter tirade and threats any different than one of any number of terrorist leaders videos threatening to do harm to America?

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by tarcone

The West went in and drew lines on a map. That was stupid. This is religious tribalism as it has been for thousands of years. Why would anyone think this region would suddenly fall into a nationalistic type of thinking.

Dumb. Erase the lines, let the religions sort themselves out like they have forever.

Trump will draw new lines with a sharpie and all will be well.

[Lathum]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...e-hate-crimes/

[Edward64]

I guess we were both wrong. It isn't primarily about oil, or about defense contractors & weapons sales. It's about skin color.

Colin Kaepernick Blasts U.S. Drone Strike On Iranian General As “American Imperialism�

“There is nothing new about American terrorist attacks against Black and Brown people for the expansion of American imperialism,” Kaepernick tweeted Saturday.
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In a second post, the former San Francisco 49ers star accused the U.S. of “plundering” the “non-white world.”

“America has always sanctioned and besieged Black and Brown bodies both at home and abroad,” he added. “America militarism is the weapon wielded by American imperialism, to enforce its policing and plundering of the non white world.”

It could also be about ... WTF?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rose-mc...sem-soleimani/

"Dear #Iran, The USA has disrespected your country, your flag, your people. 52% of us humbly apologize," McGowan tweeted Friday. "We want peace with your nation. We are being held hostage by a terrorist regime. We do not know how to escape. Please do not kill us."

She quickly received tens of thousands of replies, many of which criticized her as anti-American. McGowan doubled down, calling the United States "morally corrupt."

"Of course #Soleimani was an evil evil man who did evil evil things," McGowan tweeted. "But…The United States is morally corrupt and acts illegally. It is only logical to appeal to Iran's pride by apologizing."

McGowan also tweeted, "I do not side with Iran, but I most definitely do not side with the USA."
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Later in the day, McGowan appeared to backtrack on some of her earlier statements.

"Ok, so I freaked out because we may have any impending war," she tweeted. "Sometimes it's okay to freak out on those in power. It's our right. That is what so many Brave soldiers have fought for. That is democracy. I do not want any more American soldiers killed. That's it."

[CU Tiger]

I have a dear long time friend who I've been exchanging messages with in a group chat all day. He had a few points I wanted to share that I think are pretty pertinent and I thought the group would appreciate.

He is active duty uniformed officer home based in NC. He loyally follows the oath to follow the instruction of our currentvexecutive branch...but he is not a fan. I'll say it that way.
I did get his permission to share these comments without attributing to him.

(Some of these comments are in response to statements questions in the group chat. But I am leaving these unedited for completenesss.

When I saw the initial reports, my first thought was "OH Shit! We're in for another war."

But after I thought this one through thinking of political influence from a Diplomatic Information Military and Economic power perspective, I changed my mind. This IS the most strategic action this administration has done during this ongoing conflict.

Iran has been ramping up military actions on economic interests by disrupting oil tankers. They followed that by executing a proxy military action against our diplomatic embassy in Iraq. During the embassy attack, the Iraqi Quick Reaction Force took HOURS to respond (that's slow even by their standards). That was a message to us that they tacitly agreed with the sanctioned militia members executing the operation.

In response to all of this, we have not gone tit for tat to be drawn into a bloody brawl. Instead, we targeted lawful military combatants. To put it simply, if you are in the military and are in the theater of operations executing military planning and operations it's game on.

We executed a strategic precision strike that minimized civilian casualties and sent a direct political message to three antagonists: the government of Iran, the militias operating in Iraq, and the government of Iraq that has sanctioned their actions. The message is clear and simple: attacks against our embassies are a clear red line. We will not take out the troops you send. We will take out the headquarters personnel who planned and ordered the attack on our diplomatic efforts.

It's not exactly the same. But there was another Ron a few years back who did a similar ,but far less precise action. Remember when Ronald Reagan targeted Gaddafi's palaces in Libya in the '80s? After that, Gaddafi even said he gained a clear understanding and respect for where the US was coming from. We did not have further issues with his regime after that.

I'm sure that there will be diplomatic fallout from our strike. But if I was making the case for the action based on the law of armed conflict, I would stress that GEN Soleimani had executed previous operations in Iraq that resulted in the deaths of US military. He entered Iraq for the purpose of planning and coordinating further military actions. So, he entered Iraq as a combatant. He knew he was entering an area of operations that he himself helped define.

It's the same for anyone that puts on a uniform and enters a combat zone. It sucks to be him and I hope Iran gives him proper military honors. That is one point where I seem to differ with many folks here. I don't see GEN Soleimani as a demon. He was doing his job and he did it well. By all reports he was a charismatic leader who understood his political leaders, the civilian, population, and how to achieve his endstate. He was on the opposing side of our Nation and our national goals. His successes meant the death of our Soldiers in various theaters. But that does not make him the devil. It makes him a worthy adversary that will be a great loss to the nation of Iran. Maybe they will think twice before losing more leaders.

I might be missing something, and I know this will be judged in a political context and not a tribunal. But the way I see it, the proof is the guy who died with him.

He was meeting with a militia leader that was actively engaged in operations against our embassy and military. We aren't talking about a guy who conducted military operations in Iraq two or three years ago. We're talking about actions that were current and on going. I don't need to see his OPLANs or decision making documents to see that GEN Soleimani reentered Iraq to coordinate with a militia general who had just executed an operation against our embassy.

I would see this the same way as the SOCOM Commanding General (GEN Soleimani's US equivalent) entering Iraq and being attacked. It would be a shit day all around. But completely within the laws of war.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by panerd

I am going to have to strongly disagree with your last several paragraphs. We start out with something I totally agree with which is the innocent lives often unaccounted for/unreported in a war with Iran. Then for whatever reason the innocent nation becomes savages that would have no problem killing people at a mall or daycare center because they are Iranian? Why would Iranians be any more willing to mass murder American women and children than Americans? I think I live in more fear of being mass murdered by my psychopathic fellow lone gunman Americans than Iranians who probably want this war even less than we do.

And not to get too nitpicky with the daycare center headline but this one guy (who claimed to be Hezbollah, where I would think he would actually distance himself if he was part of some mass conspiracy) was apparently mapping out federal and military targets that had daycare centers in them. Not to give him or idiots like Timothy McVeigh any sympathy but I don't think he was looking to strike ABC daycare in Ames, Iowa he was planning on attacking a federal building (among hundreds of targets) that had a daycare center in it. A pretty marked difference I would think.

Thanks, By the time I post here at all I'm overly passionate and get a little crazy at times. I should have stopped at the first concise point I think the general idea that we should not feel as safe as we once did on home soil during any conflict is part of the consideration now, but past that yeah, I get your point completely.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Great article on the cost of full scale war with Iran:
What a War With Iran Would Look Like

Also, I served in the Air Force from 1988 to 2000 in the Air Force with the rank of Captain. I was “ lucky” to get the golden ticket and spent my entire military career overseas in combat mostly. My career field was combat weapon officer (bombardier) on B1s and B52’s.

I do generally feel those on the far right are hawkish for war yet they nor none of the family have served. I don not however feel everyone needs to server in the armed forces to have a say . But I believe strongly that if they had they might think differently about war I know I do. I am not entirely anti war but have a great understanding of terribly horrific results of war on everyone involved.

I for my part know that from my bombing hands over 30000 humans and not all combatants likely were killed in the conflicts I was involved in. I have had the opportunity to go out on patrols with ground forces and see the results of bombing missions I was involved in and see the shadows on building walls of humans who were melted into the concrete and all that remains is the ghostly soot image of there shadow. Some of those wall shadows were of children based on the size of them. That is something I think about everyday of my life and gives me a great motivation to do better with my time here left on this planet.

Are there wars such as WW 2 or the Revolutionary War worth fighting for? Yes, absolutely but otherwise those who have seen the results can tell you most are not worth the cost.

Just my .2 cents for what it is worth.

Thanks for sharing this.

[EagleFan]

My reason for not voting for Trump, even though I hated the idea of Hillary was "Trump would be more likely to start world war 3"... I hope that doesn't end up being true...

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Elon Musk is a moron and you shouldn't be counting on him for anything.

Huh? He's many things and some of them aren't complimentary, but I don't see how anyone can take even a cursory view of his accomplishments/life story and think he's a moron.

[Galaril]

Iraq's Parliament calls for expulsion of U.S. troops

[Galaril]

Trump threatens to target 52 Iranian sites 'VERY FAST AND VERY HARD' if it retaliates against any American assets

One problem is striking cultural sites is against the rules of engagement for war that the US and other nations have signed up for. Also, that is what other countries do like the Taliban did in Afghanistan not the US.

[Atocep]

It's really hard to claim we're the good guys at this point.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Atocep

It's really hard to claim we're the good guys at this point.

Yes agreed.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

So what makes Trump’s twitter tirade and threats any different than one of any number of terrorist leaders videos threatening to do harm to America?

b'cause Amurka...

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Huh? He's many things and some of them aren't complimentary, but I don't see how anyone can take even a cursory view of his accomplishments/life story and think he's a moron.

I don't think he's a moron, but at this point I'm pretty sure he's a con-man.

[kingfc22]

The BEST deal maker.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...120_story.html

“ISTANBUL — Iran said Sunday that it is suspending all commitments under the 2015 nuclear deal it had struck with world powers and will abandon restrictions on uranium enrichment and other activities unless U.S. sanctions are lifted.“

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Atocep

It's really hard to claim we're the good guys at this point.

Indeed.

CBP Detaining Iranians, Iranian-Americans: CAIR | Law & Crime

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Iraq's Parliament calls for expulsion of U.S. troops

Roundabout way of ending the pointless time spent in Iraq

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Atocep

It's really hard to claim we're the good guys at this point.

Runs out of steam a little in the 2nd half, but up to and including the reference to killing people it seems very relevant!

[panerd]

I guess if we are to be happy about anything to come out of this Trump has at least enlightened half the county how pointless war in the middle east is.

[CrimsonFox]

can Bruce Willis come save us from the republicans?

[Atocep]

Story time

I joined the Army in April of '98 as a 19 year old. I was in language school and various follow-on training opportunities until January of 2000 when I finally arrived at my unit in Germany. By then we were 9 years past Desert Storm and it was rare to run into enlisted soldiers that had served during that campaign, but I did live in the barracks with two such soldiers, one of which became a close friend.

On the odd occasions where he'd talk about what it was like, it actually made you proud to be part of our Army. The Iraqi army was severely over-matched, unprepared, and disorganized. Once word started getting out to their units that our PoWs were well fed, received medical attention, and were given generous freedoms it wasn't uncommon for us to roll up on bunkers where the soldiers had already laid down their weapons and lined up trying to be as organized as possible for their surrender. For them, it was either that or get blown away from a mile out by a M1 Abrams.

It got to the point where he told me the only English they would speak when surrendering was "no chicken". I guess these guys were put in bunkers with nothing but live chickens in cages which they were to kill for food. So when MREs were passed around they were desperate to get anything but chicken. Outside of that, the Iraqi prisoners were given basic medical aid they were lacking and were playing soccer to the pass the time. It was a resort vacation to these guys.

Those that talked about their experience made it clear we were able to roll through Iraq so quickly not just because of sheer military might, but because we had a reputation as being the good guys and treated our enemies better than their own government treated them.

Fast forward a few years and it's late 2006 and I'm in my final month in the Army just waiting to clear everything and start life as a civilian. One of the last official military functions I attended was a briefing by a Major that was an expert on the Middle East. He spoke rather candidly to us and the one thing that stuck out to me at the time was he was incredibly critical of the Abu Gharib scandal that broke a couple of years prior. He explained the importance of our reputation, not just to our allies and those we protect, but to our enemies as well. To this day I remember him stating during that briefing that the Abu Gharib scandal very well could extend our stay in the Middle East by as much as a decade. I honestly thought that was absurd at the time. I understood what happened was bad and made us look bad, but I knew how our soldiers were trained to handle PoWs and enemy combatants so one bad thing wasn't going to outweigh all the good we do.

Now, I look back on that briefing and his words were somewhat prophetic and every time discussion comes about the Middle East I think of what he said. I get that it's an oversimplification and there isn't a direct line from then to where we are now, but I do wonder how much of an impact that had in changing the perception of our troops and how many died as a result. Then I look at the things that have happened since then with the water boarding scandals, the Bush administration not exactly being truthful about why we were invading Iraq, indefinite detention without charges, and we now have the President of the United States threatening the cultural sites of a country we're not at war with which is also an indirect threat on civilian life in that country. These things make everything we do afterwards that much more difficult.

Trump reignited the General Pershing myth on the campaign trail, which his supporters cheered at the time, but it turns out that treating your enemies poorly isn't the quickest way to end a conflict. On the contrary, Pershing himself was a big supporter of what we now call nation building and changing culture through education and infrastructure support.

We went into the 2nd Iraq campaign with the benefit of the doubt from the world coming off of 9/11 along with our reputation as a strong and just global presence. In roughly 15 years we've pissed away that goodwill and simply voting out Trump isn't going to be enough to fix this. We move on quickly but foreign perception takes a hell of a lot longer to change.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Radii

Indeed.

CBP Detaining Iranians, Iranian-Americans: CAIR | Law & Crime

TBF this post was updated with a response from CBP with what happened as well as saying that those reports were false. Take everything with a grain of salt.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

can Bruce Willis come save us from the republicans?

Pretty unlikely as he supports Trump!



P.S. Snopes says he really doesn't support Trump but thought it was a nice pic

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Radii

Indeed.

CBP Detaining Iranians, Iranian-Americans: CAIR | Law & Crime

I'm not going to pretend I know who's telling the truth here.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I'm not going to pretend I know who's telling the truth here.

Likely some of it happened, some of it exaggeration, some of it miscommunication & confusion (but not because of ... racism!). I'm sure this was rushed and not all the processes were in place.

If, in a week or so, there is systemic pattern of American citizens (regardless of national origin but in this case of Iranian origin) being refused re-entry into the US, then its a big deal.

[stevew]

The rise of Ricky Gervais as a neocon idol is hilarious.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Radii

Indeed.

CBP Detaining Iranians, Iranian-Americans: CAIR | Law & Crime

This is false, conjured by CAIR, apparently.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

This is false, conjured by CAIR, apparently.

Got any links handy?

I'm kind of wary to believe to believe anyone at this point. I know Trump would love to put part of his muslim ban in place. However I'm kind of wary of a disinformation campaign orchestrated by Iran or Russia.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by stevew

The rise of Ricky Gervais as a neocon idol is hilarious.

It's like they have never, ever paid any attention to anything he's ever said before. Up until now.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Got any links handy?

I'm kind of wary to believe to believe anyone at this point. I know Trump would love to put part of his muslim ban in place. However I'm kind of wary of a disinformation campaign orchestrated by Iran or Russia.

Yeah I'm in the same boat here. When I first posted that link there had not yet been a response from Border Patrol at all. Currently I just feel up in the air about it, something I could see either side doing.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Huh? He's many things and some of them aren't complimentary, but I don't see how anyone can take even a cursory view of his accomplishments/life story and think he's a moron.

Listen to him talk, he doesn't come across as intelligent. As for his accomplishments, he built his first company off his Daddy's money.

Tesla has been around for 20 years and doesn't make money and only exists thanks to massive taxpayer subsidies. His broad proclamations either show lack of knowledge in technology or straight up fraud (see Hyperloop, self-driving, etc).

SpaceX also relies almost entirely on government handouts.

I'll give him credit for bilking the taxpayers out of money. But before we label him some savior, maybe he should run a self-sufficient company first.

[Edward64]

I saw this on CNN TV when it first broke and was thinking WTF that's a pretty bold move by Trump. Wasn't sure what to think with all the possible repercussions.

Glad to know it was unsigned and a mistake. Would like to know how the draft got leaked.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/06/polit...raq/index.html

The top US general said Monday a letter suggesting the US would withdraw troops from Iraq was released by mistake and poorly worded, telling reporters "that's not what's happening."

Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Mark Milley scrambled to address the confusion that began after the leak of an unsigned letter from the US Command in Baghdad notifying the Iraqi government that US troops were being repositioned in the region.

It seemed to suggest American forces were being moved out of the country and fueled an immediate wave of questions as US officials in Baghdad confirmed its authenticity but said it did not indicate US troops were being withdrawn.
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"That letter is a draft. It was a mistake, it was unsigned, it should not have been released ... (it was) poorly worded, implies withdrawal, that is not what's happening," Milley said.

"It's an honest mistake ... it should not have been sent," he added.
Ultimately, it became clear that the US had not ordered troops out of Iraq but had sent notice that some of its forces would be repositioned.

[RainMaker]

The letter came from a General in Iraq who sent it to their government apparently. Esper also came out today and contradicted Trump on hitting cultural sites.

Just seems like people are doing their own thing and there isn't really any plan.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Just seems like people are doing their own thing and there isn't really any plan.

A pretty good summary of Impeached President* Cadet Bone Spurs' entire time in office.

[NobodyHere]

Actually this time I think the apparent discord in the White House works in Trump's favor here. Iran may be more cautious to act if they don't know where Trump's limits are. If they think Trump means to actually hit their cultural sites then they may decide to spread out their defenses to protect those sites.

Sometimes I think the chaos in the WH is manufactured.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Actually this time I think the apparent discord in the White House works in Trump's favor here. Iran may be more cautious to act if they don't know where Trump's limits are. If they think Trump means to actually hit their cultural sites then they may decide to spread out their defenses to protect those sites.

Sometimes I think the chaos in the WH is manufactured.

I definitely see what you are saying. He's got an 'X' factor that Iran has probably never had to deal with, when we here know it's just him being the same dumb ass he has been for decades. If this is actually coordinated, I wouldn't be surprised if he's just paying back a favor to someone and really doesn't give two cents about Iran to begin with. It's like that strange dog, you don't know what it's going to do. You know what other dogs in the past have done, but, you don't know this one and so far, it isn't acting normally. If Iran was smart, they would hurt him where it would hurt the most, fuck with his money or his means to get it.

[Warhammer]

I don't remember what the previous incident he did something similar, but he did it with a previous incident, you do not take anything off the table. You don't say we'll hit back if you do anything to us, but we won't hit you here, here, or here. You say we're going to hit you back where its going to hurt.

That said, I do disagree with going public with it. He could have said we're going to hit you if you hit us, etc.

[NobodyHere]

Geez, it looks like the Iranians are doing Trump's work for him.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/iran-s...erman-mourners

[Kodos]

It would be interesting if Iran opted to do a cyber attack on Trump's personal financial interests. Or found a way to release his tax returns.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

you do not take anything off the table.

I feel like war crimes as defined by the Geneva Convention should be off the table.

[spleen1015]

This is a dude who has never been held accountable for anything in his life. He has always been in charge, answered to no one, and used his team of lawyers to protect himself from all of the wrong he has done.

I don't think he gives a shit about war crimes. He's going to do whatever he wants.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

I don't think he gives a shit about war crimes. He's going to do whatever he wants.

Oh I agree, I'm referring to Warhammer saying "you do not take anything off the table" - I have no doubt nothing is off the table in the mind of Trump, but I had hoped that being appalled at the idea of openly threatening actions that are against international law (and US Law) would not be a partisan issue at this point, at the very least amongst members of this forum.

[JediKooter]

I have no idea why Iran or any other country would not trust him...


Anatomy of a Trump rally: 67 percent of claims are false or lacking evidence

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Kodos

It would be interesting if Iran opted to do a cyber attack on Trump's personal financial interests. Or found a way to release his tax returns.

Or the alleged pee tapes.

[Radii]

Iranian Americans describe ordeal of detention at U.S.-Canada border - Los Angeles Times

An individual account of the situation at the Canadian Border. The thing that strikes me here is that everyone seems to be speaking calmly and reasonably here. There is frustration and maybe even outrage, but the description of events here isn't blinded by rage, and even points out specifically "that there was no mistreatment" - but rather an observation that US Citizens were being singled out based on their descent and were being questioned on loyalty before being allowed back in the country.


At this point I just have a very hard time believing the Border Patrol's statement that they were simply short staffed and busy, combined with heightened security without regard for race or country of origin. I'd like to think I'm open to new information, we'll see if any comes out or if its only going to be further statements from individuals who were held up at the border.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

I don't remember what the previous incident he did something similar, but he did it with a previous incident, you do not take anything off the table. You don't say we'll hit back if you do anything to us, but we won't hit you here, here, or here. You say we're going to hit you back where its going to hurt.

That said, I do disagree with going public with it. He could have said we're going to hit you if you hit us, etc.

Not doing the war crimes has been implied in our responses to threats for decades. Now we can't be sure that Americans won't sink to the level of terrorists.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

I don't think he gives a shit about war crimes. He's going to do whatever he wants.

He just pardoned a war criminal and plans to campaign with him. Pretty sure he is pro-war crime.

[JPhillips]

"We have a tremendous Greek population. Over 3 million people as I understand it. That's fantastic. I really feel I know most of them. I think I know all of them, come to think of it."

Trump knows every Greek person in the U.S.