The Higher Education Thread

[Edward64]

Why has tuition costs risen so much? I do believe this is a major factor.

Democrats will avoid the real causes of the student loan crisis at Wednesday’s debate - MarketWatch

Back in 1987, when federally backed loans were far scarcer, then-Secretary of Education Bill Bennett offered the Bennett Hypothesis. “Increases in financial aid in recent years have enabled colleges and universities blithely to raise their tuitions, confident that federal loan subsidies would help cushion the increase.” Thirty-two years later, it has really become Bennett’s Law of Tuition Stimulation.

A 2015 report by the Federal Reserve Bank of New York demonstrated this, noting a direct correlation between the rise in student loan borrowing and increasing tuition.

“Higher tuition costs raise loan demand, but loan supply … [relaxes] students’ funding constraints,” the bank said, asserting that there is a “pass-through effect on tuition.” This means that for every dollar a college or university gets in subsidized federal loans, tuition increases 65 cents. The outcome is similar for unsubsidized loans (30 cents) and Pell Grants (55 cents).

In short, student debt isn’t skyrocketing because college is too expensive. Higher education is too expensive because federal student loans and grants are so plentiful.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Why has tuition costs risen so much? I do believe this is a major factor.

Democrats will avoid the real causes of the student loan crisis at Wednesday’s debate - MarketWatch

Chicken/egg. It is definitely not the only factor. Repeated government cuts to funding also has drove up costs.

[bob]

So my daughter is taking the ACT next spring as part of the Duke TIP program. She's only 7th grade, so we aren't too worried about it, but we want to expose her to what type of test it is prior to walking in the door that morning. Anyway have any suggestion on a good test prep book?

Also, for those of you who have been through this before, should we be taking this more seriously?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by bob

So my daughter is taking the ACT next spring as part of the Duke TIP program. She's only 7th grade, so we aren't too worried about it, but we want to expose her to what type of test it is prior to walking in the door that morning. Anyway have any suggestion on a good test prep book?

Also, for those of you who have been through this before, should we be taking this more seriously?

I guess its depending on what your expectations are. My son and daughter took ACT prep courses in summer/fall before graduation. My daughter's results are to be announced but my son increased his by +3 points.

The increase was enough to get him to next tier of college but in retrospect, the prep classes teaches how to do the test, it doesn't magically make him a better "book-study" student.

If you are expecting Ivy league caliber, start working on that now with her (along with all the added pressure). If its to increase her ACT score, I think summer before is good enough.

[Breeze]

Originally Posted by bob

So my daughter is taking the ACT next spring as part of the Duke TIP program. She's only 7th grade, so we aren't too worried about it, but we want to expose her to what type of test it is prior to walking in the door that morning. Anyway have any suggestion on a good test prep book?

Also, for those of you who have been through this before, should we be taking this more seriously?

Our oldest took the SAT as part of the Duke TIP program in 7th grade, but we sent him in cold. We felt the idea was to expose him to the test, not stress him out about taking it at this point. We considered having him prep a little for it in 8th grade, but ultimately he did really well the first time out so we punted and he didn't take it again at all. (He did take the ACT as a Jr...).

We also had the option to expose the twins to the test a couple years later, but decided against it, and both did real well on the ACT last year.

[GrantDawg]

Just to update...my son did get into UGA early action, but he considers it his safety school. He was deferred on early action for Yale, and we won't get Georgia Tech early action till middle of next month. He has applied to a couple more schools regular decision (won't know till March), and has a couple more he plans on applying over the holidays.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by bob

Also, for those of you who have been through this before, should we be taking this more seriously?

Unless you're looking for a Doogie Howser scenario, I wouldn't consider this round of testing as anything more than get-your-feet-wet / see-where-you-are experience.

[CU Tiger]

Same as the others.
My daughter took it as a 7th grader through DUKE TIP and didnt (I thought) remarkably well. But we stressed that it was just for fun...as she is a worrier anyway.


We declined to take again in 8th grade. She is a HS So now and plan is to take some prep classes this summer.

[PilotMan]

My middle son did Duke in 7th, it was an experience, but that's about it. He didn't gain much from it. He just took the ACT for the 10th time, he's only really raised his score by 3 points in high school. He has done prep on his own, at college, and in high school, and he can't seem to crack the barrier. It's frustrating for everyone. He has put probably 10 times the time into it that I ever did.

[bob]

Thanks for the info everyone. I just wanted to make sure we weren't being bad parents by not taking this too seriously.

[PilotMan]

I have a question. When do the schools present you with the loan offerings and payment plans? When should I look for outside loan options, lower interest parent offreings, etc?



My Senior just got his final ACT scores, and it's really disappointing. He's a very smart, driven kid with a deep love of many, many things. His ACT scores suck. His award money from the school is about as pedestrian and average as it gets. It's been a real kick to all this. He's on the same level as his friends, they break 30, he struggles to break 24. He's gotten all A's and B's in the college courses he's taken thus far. But what an incredible let down.



I'm only sharing this here, because it's the safest place to let this out. He was the one in the family that if there was a chance to get a big scholarship offer, he was going to get it. Now? Now it's just nothing. He is the 50th percentile. He is neither in demand or special. How incredibly disappointing to have him struggle and be unable to break this barrier.



I am feeling very conflicted about all this. It takes a lot of processing to figure out how to deal. He's done a ton of prep work, yet never did some of the things he needed to in order to be successful. I want to be his cheerleader, I want to be irritated that a kid with the talent he has just couldn't pull it together to make this happen. I can't possibly get mad at him for it.



Ugh... What's done is done. Just need to find out what I need to do to secure loans. He won't get shit for scholarships. He's not a high enough achiever, we make too much money, his grades and scores are just above average, but not top tier. I just want to know what to expect and how to make sure I get all the funding necessary to get expenses covered. Thanks

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

My Senior just got his final ACT scores, and it's really disappointing.

I'm curious so I'm gonna ask: did he attempt the SAT as well? And if so, were the scores about the same level? I ask simply because we came to feel like a lot of students would be noticeably better at one or the other. Difference in their skills, difference in the approach of the tests (generally felt like writing driven did better ACT, math driven better SAT)



I'll leave answering your question to folks better informed than me, I was just curious about this and figured I'd ask (the thread is a repository of sorts at this point I think so discussion tends to hang around for later use)

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

I have a question. When do the schools present you with the loan offerings and payment plans? When should I look for outside loan options, lower interest parent offreings, etc?



My Senior just got his final ACT scores, and it's really disappointing. He's a very smart, driven kid with a deep love of many, many things. His ACT scores suck. His award money from the school is about as pedestrian and average as it gets. It's been a real kick to all this. He's on the same level as his friends, they break 30, he struggles to break 24. He's gotten all A's and B's in the college courses he's taken thus far. But what an incredible let down.



I'm only sharing this here, because it's the safest place to let this out. He was the one in the family that if there was a chance to get a big scholarship offer, he was going to get it. Now? Now it's just nothing. He is the 50th percentile. He is neither in demand or special. How incredibly disappointing to have him struggle and be unable to break this barrier.



I am feeling very conflicted about all this. It takes a lot of processing to figure out how to deal. He's done a ton of prep work, yet never did some of the things he needed to in order to be successful. I want to be his cheerleader, I want to be irritated that a kid with the talent he has just couldn't pull it together to make this happen. I can't possibly get mad at him for it.



Ugh... What's done is done. Just need to find out what I need to do to secure loans. He won't get shit for scholarships. He's not a high enough achiever, we make too much money, his grades and scores are just above average, but not top tier. I just want to know what to expect and how to make sure I get all the funding necessary to get expenses covered. Thanks

Maybe it's more of a California thing, but why not a JC? Why spend the money on core classes that make no difference where it's being taken? I was the only one who went to JC in my family and it cost less for my whole education than it did for my brother for one year (state school for 4 years) and sister (private for one year, public for 3).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Maybe it's more of a California thing, but why not a JC?

Not just a Cali thing, for sure.

It's not at all uncommon for students in Georgia to take 1-2
years of core classes at either 2 year or smaller/regional 4 year schools*.


(We have relatively few classic JUCOs anymore, a number of them having been transitioned to 4 yr institutions over the last 10-15 years but those still function about the same for this purpose)

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Not just a Cali thing, for sure.

It's not at all uncommon for students in Georgia to take 1-2
years of core classes at either 2 year or smaller/regional 4 year schools*.


(We have relatively few classic JUCOs anymore, a number of them having been transitioned to 4 yr institutions over the last 10-15 years but those still function about the same for this purpose)

Yup. It is a vary smart way to go. Two years JUCO, and then transfer. It will be much easier to transfer, and there are scholarships for transfer student based on their grades in JUCO, if I am not mistaking. In Georgia, classes are guaranteed to transfer in the state system.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

I have a question. When do the schools present you with the loan offerings and payment plans? When should I look for outside loan options, lower interest parent offreings, etc?

I think the when is totally dependent on the school. Have you filled out the FASFA? Also, look to see if the schools have supplements they require on top of the FASFA. Some schools require a CSS profile and tax returns. Most just require FASFA. You have to look carefully at the schools website to see what is necessary.

Sometimes the whole package offered comes with acceptance, but many times it come closer to when regular decisions are released.

[cuervo72]

I'm not even sure if Maryland has any JuCos other than Community Colleges; for us that's FCC (no, not at all confusing when I worked at the OTHER FCC). A good number of kids start out there; if you're driven, they're a good option. Not all kids stay focused though and I believe a good number of them wash out of the system. Which, for some of them is probably a good thing, rather than doing that at a more expensive college. I'm not sure that others wouldn't benefit though from just having a change of scenery, where CC isn't much more than 13th grade for them.

As for loans, fill out FAFSA if you haven't already. I still don't know how all schools handle aid; my son had some merit offers but those seemed to be just that rather than a whole aid package. Of course for Purdue, their stance was basically "you should just be happy to have gotten in" (Engineering; more prestigious than the rest of the school). Daughter has gotten two acceptances; one mentioned scholarships (smaller, private school which would LOVE to have her boost stats), one didn't at all.

For my son, I didn't apply for loans until June/July, and that was through the FAFSA/studentaid.gov portal too. It was easier than I anticipated. (Not as easy: paying everything back.) I am curious how things will work this year with two kids in school, because our expected contribution is not going to cover two tuitions.

[PilotMan]

The No#1 answer to the why not JC is that he is following my footsteps into my career. He's going in state, to the only collegiate aviation program in the state. We've looked at options that involve just flight training and staying at the local college for regular classes. The biggest negative to that is the delay in being able to move on to a 'career' job. By going to the aviation specific school, he only needs 1000 hours of flying instead of 1500 hours, to be able to be hired out. That's roughly a 9-12 months worth of full time flying. That kind of timing is critical in this industry.



He's got very, very good skills that translate to this career. So him not liking it, or not succeeding at it, isn't a concern. Of course, that also carries the extra costs associated with this particular field (+80k).



He also didn't take the SAT. In retrospect, that might have been a poor choice. When you've had 10 chances to take the same test, and solely focused on that test, you figure that the upside is going to spill out eventually. We just never got that.



The dad in me is both disappointed that he couldn't advance and get those next level money offers, and frustrated knowing the work that he did (the disappointment on his face is one of the worst things ever. Time after time of the work put in and him not seeing the results takes its toll emotionally) and didn't (so much that he didn't do too) put into to getting better.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I think the when is totally dependent on the school. Have you filled out the FASFA? Also, look to see if the schools have supplements they require on top of the FASFA. Some schools require a CSS profile and tax returns. Most just require FASFA. You have to look carefully at the schools website to see what is necessary.

Sometimes the whole package offered comes with acceptance, but many times it come closer to when regular decisions are released.

We did the FAFSA very early. He finished his application very early. He got his acceptance very early. We did get a letter with the 2K/year merit based scholarship offer, but that's completely it. I haven't seen anything that talked about student loans, Parent Plus loans, or anything else. Clearly there will be opportunities for those things. Then I guess after that, I need to look at private funding options, I just need to be in front of all that. The last thing I need is to get caught off guard with this stuff.


The other thing is that this year's funding is based on my income with 5 months of missing work from a broken ankle, where my AGI is about 50k less than it will be for 2019. So even with another kid following up in a year, the need based thing isn't ever going to come into play. I have no problem taking on some of the debt load, but I need the front end funding to make it happen.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

We did the FAFSA very early. He finished his application very early. He got his acceptance very early. We did get a letter with the 2K/year merit based scholarship offer, but that's completely it. I haven't seen anything that talked about student loans, Parent Plus loans, or anything else. Clearly there will be opportunities for those things. Then I guess after that, I need to look at private funding options, I just need to be in front of all that. The last thing I need is to get caught off guard with this stuff.


The other thing is that this year's funding is based on my income with 5 months of missing work from a broken ankle, where my AGI is about 50k less than it will be for 2019. So even with another kid following up in a year, the need based thing isn't ever going to come into play. I have no problem taking on some of the debt load, but I need the front end funding to make it happen.

At this point then, it looks like you need to contact the schools financial aid office and start the process. They will tell you what you need and point you in the right direction. If he is starting in the fall, you should have until May to get things together.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

He also didn't take the SAT. In retrospect, that might have been a poor choice.

It happens. Some kids do about the same on either, some do fare much better on one than the other (again, just a styles thing). So the hindsight has to go with the "definitely not guaranteed to matter" grain of salt.

The dad in me is both disappointed that he couldn't advance and get those next level money offers

I'm reminded a bit here of the Purdue engineering example in the discussion. With this being such a specialized program and one with limited competition, the dollars are almost certain to be tougher to come by. They (the school) simply doesn't have to be as aggressive in those situations compared to other scenarios, so the bar is often quite different.

I guess I'm trying to say that the disappointment is completely valid BUT that it also may have been one helluva big mountain to climb too.

[GrantDawg]

We are counting down to final decisions, and I am just super frustrated by this whole process. My son has been wait-listed from Georgia Tech, even being instate with a 1500 SAT and a near perfect GPA with ten AP courses included. he is going to graduate 4 out of 430 in his class, and had the highest SAT in his school by 200 points. I just don't get it.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

We are counting down to final decisions, and I am just super frustrated by this whole process. My son has been wait-listed from Georgia Tech, even being instate with a 1500 SAT and a near perfect GPA with ten AP courses included. he is going to graduate 4 out of 430 in his class, and had the highest SAT in his school by 200 points. I just don't get it.

That is truly insane. Congrats on having a kick ass kid though.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

We are counting down to final decisions, and I am just super frustrated by this whole process. My son has been wait-listed from Georgia Tech, even being instate with a 1500 SAT and a near perfect GPA with ten AP courses included. he is going to graduate 4 out of 430 in his class, and had the highest SAT in his school by 200 points. I just don't get it.

FTR: my comments here aren't "at" you, they're more meant as part of the general discussion / info dump I believe this thread has served as. I doubt anything I mention is new to you, but down the line it might be new for another FOFC'er going through this for the first time.


Looking at what GT says about freshman admission on their website, they've gone "holistic" it appears.

First-year applicants to Georgia Tech will be reviewed in a selective, holistic admission process. Our holistic review includes consideration of the following factors:

Academic Preparation
Standardized Testing
Contribution to Community
Personal Essays
Recommendations
Interview
Major Selection
Institutional Fit

So the things you mentioned cover about half the factors. Of course a near-proprietary secret about admissions most places is what weight each of the aspects carries.

It also doesn't get into the things that are sometimes behind the curtain for those 8 criteria they mention. For example,I know that some of the colleges here have a sort of "weighting" for pretty much every high school, all GPAs are not created equal basically. Past success of students from XYZ High School can shift things up or down for a current applicant. The +200 points ahead of his HS cohort may actually have worked against him rather than for him (depending upon where he fits in the broader profile of the school historically)

Another factor is the outcome you saw could be "Contribution To Community". That feels a lot like code for "how many of the non-academic checkboxes did you fill?"

Personal Essays are a lovely minefield, where whether it turns into a pro or a con often depends largely on which admission participant (staffer? committee member? advisory board member? whatever) was the first reader of it. Same thing for the Interview portion, very luck of the draw was how we felt about that.

Institutional Fit is pretty clearly a fancy way for the Institute to say they're filling their checkboxes. Their own description of that element reads

Holistic admission is utilized to ensure enrollment of a first-year class who will be diverse, innovative thinkers and problem solvers. A diverse class of students from many backgrounds has proven to be fertile soil for creativity. We also want a class who studies a variety of disciplines, so the major you put on your application and evidence of your interest in this major is an indicator of how you would fit in the upcoming class. These are examples of institutional priorities, and how factors outside of your GPA and test scores will affect your admission decision.

Getting waitlisted vs fall acceptance could be nothing more than a matter of being the 12th white male in-state applicant in a major that only had room for 11 of the same.

In all of these situations - whether it's acceptance, deferred admission, or outright rejection - I tend to think about how our veteran HS admissions counselor explained it to us while we waited out the final weeks "Think of all the applications in a pile. They're looking for reasons to kick every one of them to the stack of cuts, not keep them in the stack of candidates."

That he was wait-listed strongly suggests to me that he was nothing more than a coin flip away from being accepted straightaway. And that ain't one bit shabby.

[GrantDawg]

Yeah, I have a feeling in the end is that he was applying for the most competitive major (Computer Science), and he zero extra circulars that had anything to do with computers.

[cuervo72]

For some schools, it's just a crapshoot. I'm a little surprised that in-state that still wasn't enough (though if he was Regular Decision and not Early Action, that really does decrease the odds), but my son had a 1570, National Merit, 5s in a mess of AP tests, etc. and he was also wait-listed. Granted, it was also for a top program (aerospace).

edit: I'm rather surprised nobody else in his class managed to best 1300. Our HS is considered pretty middling, but my son's class had three NMSQT semifinalists. Daughter got a 1420 this year and I feel like the school was like "meh, whatever."

[GrantDawg]

He was deferred early decision. Basically, this is his second deferral.

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[JPhillips]

A colleague with a valedictorian son is having similar issues here in the NE. She said that she was told that 2nd tier schools are working hard to get the kids that almost made the Ivy League, but didn't. The kids that start out looking at places like Tech aren't valued as highly as the kids that would have rather gone somewhere else.

[GrantDawg]

I get that, but Tech is not his first choice. He is also waiting on Williams College and (the longest shot) Yale. He was deferred at Yale Early Action, but I understand that would be a small miracle to get accepted. He was a Williams "WOW" weekend kid, which he gives him a half-way decent shot there. I would prefer he stay in state rather than be way up in the woods of Massachusetts, but if he got in, he would definitely go.

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[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

For some schools, it's just a crapshoot. I'm a little surprised that in-state that still wasn't enough (though if he was Regular Decision and not Early Action, that really does decrease the odds), but my son had a 1570, National Merit, 5s in a mess of AP tests, etc. and he was also wait-listed. Granted, it was also for a top program (aerospace).

edit: I'm rather surprised nobody else in his class managed to best 1300. Our HS is considered pretty middling, but my son's class had three NMSQT semifinalists. Daughter got a 1420 this year and I feel like the school was like "meh, whatever."

Maybe less surprising though when you look at some of the numbers for the most recent (2019) freshman class.

MID 50% TEST SCORES
1400-1530

So 25% of admissions scored above 1530

2,600 Fall Semester
505 Summer Semester

So basically 1/6 of eventual freshmen were "summer admit" or "waitlist"

[RainMaker]

For kids in college who get sent out, does the school offer a refund on stuff? I mean you're not using the facilities, especially room and board.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

For kids in college who get sent out, does the school offer a refund on stuff? I mean you're not using the facilities, especially room and board.

Not sure what’s going to happen for my daughter yet. It’s going to be a catastrophic clusterfuck once they actually are allowed to go back and start retrieving stuff. Her dorm is the same one my dad lived in. It has 1 shitty slow ass elevator and an endless supply of idiot students taking FOREVER to move up and down.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

For kids in college who get sent out, does the school offer a refund on stuff? I mean you're not using the facilities, especially room and board.

To this point, none that I'm familiar with have done so.

While I doubt much relief will eventually be given, in fairness most places are only under stay-away orders til some time in March and have only been that way for a week, there hasn't been time enough to work out a lot of logistics like that.

Fwiw, the sticking point with a lot of Ole Miss parents right now isn't the housing money - I think most figure that's already lost - it's the meal plan money. THAT is generating some heat already, at least in the forums where parents talk and stuff.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Fwiw, the sticking point with a lot of Ole Miss parents right now isn't the housing money - I think most figure that's already lost - it's the meal plan money. THAT is generating some heat already, at least in the forums where parents talk and stuff.

My son lives off-campus so will be doing remote from there after spring break. No meal plan either. However, I have to believe there would be some prorated reimbursement for dorms & meals.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Edward64

My son lives off-campus so will be doing remote from there after spring break. No meal plan either. However, I have to believe there would be some prorated reimbursement for dorms & meals.

I'm in the other camp on expectations. I'd be downright shocked if institutions let go of money they already had in their hands. Maybe a token gesture here & there but anything more than that I'd be genuinely shocked to see.

[stevew]

100% agree with Jon

[stevew]

The feds might mandate a credit vs Stafford loans maybe. Only hope of getting anything back.

[GrantDawg]

I am going to say again, I just don't get this process. GT had a 38% acceptance rate in state, my son got wait-listed. Williams college has an acceptance rate of less than 15%. He got in.

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[stevew]

I think my daughter is getting refunded 50% for room and board this semester. Going to take some time to process

[PilotMan]

The oldest is supposed to head to Eastern KY this fall for Aviation. There's been a bit of talk going around about what to do if schools aren't able to take students this fall. Some have suggested that they may not even go to fall semester if they can't attend classes on campus. Why pay full tuition for stay at home, and marginal quality classes they could pay a third of the cost for elsewhere? Is anyone else having these discussions with their kids?

[cuervo72]

Not yet, no. Though my wife did see someone wonder on a Purdue parent FB page (or somesuch) why anyone should need to pay an OOS premium if everyone is taking classes online. (It's perhaps not quite that simple, but the general thought of "wait, what are we paying for?" is valid.)

This whole thing would have made Cornell's spring start option pretty nice had my daughter gotten in. (She did not, but she is quite happy to be headed at some point to Virginia Tech.)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Is anyone else having these discussions with their kids?

Eh, yes and no. But it's different here since we're at the post-grad stage (presumably) come Fall 2020.

The prevailing issue here has been more about the possibility of trying to select a school where he's never been physically on campus. (some of his applications went to places that were due to be visited after acceptances came in). Also topical here - though lightly because we don't want to even consider it - is whether law schools will even run in Fall 2020 since those courses are very much NOT meant to be done online.

[Warhammer]

Mine has checked to make sure his gen ed requirements for a community college will transfer to a 4 yr state school and is doing two years at a community college before the 4 yr school.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

(She did not, but she is quite happy to be headed at some point to Virginia Tech.)

Congrats to her. My son has decided on Williams College. The prestige of the school, with the financial aid package (tuition, books, lab fees paid, along with about 40% of room and board), made it a no brainer. Now it is the wait on if/when he will actually start. It is 1,000+ miles away. We are debating flying, or driving up and making a week of it. It would be great if we could know something now, and lock in some low rates on things. The not knowing is the worse

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Also topical here - though lightly because we don't want to even consider it - is whether law schools will even run in Fall 2020 since those courses are very much NOT meant to be done online.

I have a little insight here for what it is worth.

I teach as an adjunct at UNC-CH Law School. The school finished/is finishing the year online. From what I can tell, no one is even thinking about what to do in Fall 2020. But the plan is certainly to happen. And, if I had to guess, they'd rather it happen online than not happen at all if it comes to having to make that choice. The expenses for the law school are the tenured faculty, who I assume they would still have to pay. So I am not even sure that most of the schools could afford to not get tuition payments for a year.

And you are correct about the lost value of doing it online. In terms of coursework, most of your first year courses are lecture courses, so there's a superficial sense in which a lot of the curriculum could "easily" translate to online. But law is a networking profession. And there is a ton of value in being on campus and meeting people and making friends who will become your colleagues and just physically making the transition from jeans-wearing college kid to coat-and-tie wearing guy who advises banks on how to merge with each other. You would lose a TON doing the first year of law school online, IMO.

I will also advise as someone who is in a position to hire lawyers that a gap year between college and law school won't hurt him--especially considering COVID as a very valid excuse. For a lawyer, your resume begins at law school.

If he is in a position to defer his admission for a year after he gets in, then that's a hard choice with a lot of moving parts that he'll have to make. But, if he is worried about it looking bad to future employers that he took a year (or more) between college and law school, then he really should not. And I hope that that turns at least one of his variables into a constant.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Congrats to her. My son has decided on Williams College. The prestige of the school, with the financial aid package (tuition, books, lab fees paid, along with about 40% of room and board), made it a no brainer. Now it is the wait on if/when he will actually start. It is 1,000+ miles away. We are debating flying, or driving up and making a week of it. It would be great if we could know something now, and lock in some low rates on things. The not knowing is the worse

Wow, congrats - great school, great deal!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I have a little insight here for what it is worth.

Thanks, on all of it. I'll just reply to stuff in one post rather than multi-quoting.

The gap year part is comfortable enough for him, we always knew that was a possibility. He could likely repeat internship time with one of the state's top defense attorneys (who also wrote some of his recc. letters), everyone there was keen on him after his summer with them & have all been "anything we can do to help, just say the word" ever since.

To our surprise, he's yet to get a single gap year recommendation from any of his applications. So far he's gotten (I think the latest count is) 2 outright rejections (one expected, one surprise),1 deferral (best case with that one really), and either 5 or 6 immediate acceptance (including one pleasant surprise that is no worse than choice 2B).

Offers so far have ranged from nada to a true full ride, with a couple others in the 75% range (including one that notoriously doesn't offer much of anything to anybody afaik). And that's before any negotiation at ALL.

The delay on his decision at this point is that his top choice still hasn't replied one way or the other, so we're paying some seat fees to keep our leverage as high as possible until that settles itself.

It's a helluva process, that's for sure. On the whole - pending the outcome of his top pick - it's gone pretty well I think, aside from quite a few highs & lows as the yays & nays come in a sorta alternating fashion.

[britrock88]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I teach as an adjunct at UNC-CH Law School.

OT: can't recall if I knew this when I was in school there '09-'12!

Somewhat back to on-topic: ...I'm now an in-house lawyer in higher ed. Don't have a ton to offer off the bat except that it's been a wild 7 weeks, but happy to be a resource if I can be.

[JonInMiddleGA]

As it just so happens, there IS a "okay, what say you?" topic we'd appreciate your input/insight on.

Might as well not dance around the identity of the players at this point, so I'll just use the real contenders.

What would you say about the job prospects with a degree from UT-Knoxville versus Univ of Miami?

Specifically, not looking at it in the sense of the institutions (which aren't that far apart in ratings) but rather in the sense of graduating from a school in a much larger market vs a decidedly smaller
market.

For the purpose of the question, let's assume that his primary long term goal is earnings ("I'm a money-grubbing sumbitch" was his own statement just minutes ago) and his idyllic job is something in the federal prosecution line.
(Yeah, we realize the paradox I just described).

Right now, the advice he's getting from some practicing attorneys is that "if all things are otherwise even (or even just close)" head to Miami because it leads to more opportunities, if only due to larger area and higher profile.

But, what say you?

[GrantDawg]

Just common logic would say Miami, without knowing anything about the schools.

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