Just got done with jury duty. Sent the guy away for 20 years. Ask me anything

cartman · 01-30-2018, 03:06 PM

For the past three weeks I've been on jury duty on a pretty disturbing case. We convicted on Friday, and sentencing finished today. Haven't been able to talk about it at all until today when the judge dismissed us from duty. I was the jury foreman. I'm sure you have questions, ask away.

RainMaker · 01-30-2018, 03:09 PM

Is it in the news? Were you sequestered the whole time or allowed to go home?

cartman · 01-30-2018, 03:11 PM

Might have been in the news locally, but not a headliner or anything. Weren't sequestered at any point, we were allowed to go home each night.

NobodyHere · 01-30-2018, 03:12 PM

How long did the deliberations take?

cartman · 01-30-2018, 03:14 PM

We deliberated on the charges all day Thursday and Friday. There were 4 charges in total. Yesterday and today were the punishment phase of the trial. We deliberated for about an hour on the sentence.

RainMaker · 01-30-2018, 03:21 PM

Did you have to convince a lot of people or were most in agreement? Also what did the person do?

CU Tiger · 01-30-2018, 03:25 PM

What were the charges?

cartman · 01-30-2018, 03:30 PM

It was a 63 year old guy accused of sexually abusing three of his step granddaughters ages 10, 7, and 5 back in 2015.

There were four counts. One involving the 10 year old, two involving the 7 year old, and one involving the 5 year old.

For the charge involving the 10 year old, the case was rock solid. We started out deliberations 11-1 in favor of guilty. It didn't take too long for the hold out to also decide on guilty.

Due to the ages of the other two girls, and since this happened over 2.5 years ago, that part of the trial was incredibly difficult to parse through. For the 10 year old, there were police recordings and evidence from the day after it happened. For the other two girls, their accusations came out later during the investigations. Their testimony was all over the place, and often contradicted itself. We on the jury were sure that something had happened to the girls, but we weren't able to get consensus on those charges being beyond a reasonable doubt, so we had to vote not guilty on those.

sovereignstar v2 · 01-30-2018, 04:05 PM

What's your address?

cartman · 01-30-2018, 04:06 PM

127.0.0.1

dawgfan · 01-30-2018, 04:49 PM

Are you OK? Sounds like a rough trial to have to be a part of.

cartman · 01-30-2018, 04:54 PM

I was a basket case on Friday night. I broke down crying on the way home. It was tough having to give the not guilty verdicts on the charges involving the two girls while they were in the courtroom with their parents. It was incredibly difficult to hear some of the testimony.

NobodyHere · 01-30-2018, 05:10 PM

Since you were foreman, did the other jurors respect your authoritah?

cartman · 01-30-2018, 05:15 PM

yes, most definitely. Still not quite sure why they chose me, but it was a fairly quick decision.

molson · 01-30-2018, 05:26 PM

At work, I spend many hours pouring over criminal trial transcripts, evidence, pretrial motions and orders, etc - everything is so well documented, but then there's this one area that is a complete mystery - what goes on in the jury room. And of course, none of us will ever be able to be on a criminal jury again, so it's kind of this fascinating wonderland. So, from that perspective.....

Were there a lot of occasions where the jury was excused from the courtroom for the lawyers and judge to argue and discuss things outside your presence? Did you find that annoying, and do think any of the jurors held that against either side, or that it otherwise impacted the deliberations? Was there any open speculation about what the lawyers might have been discussing in those instances?

Did any of the lawyers want to talk to you afterwards? Did you?

Was there any limiting instructions provided at trial ("you are only to consider this evidence for X purpose"), and do you think the jury was faithfully able and/or willing to follow instructions like that?

Did you ever feel like any of the jurors were making factual findings based on some improper basis, or speculated about what type of evidence might have been excluded from trial?

RainMaker · 01-30-2018, 05:30 PM

Do they offer any kind of counseling to jurors after a trial like this? I feel like listening to 3 weeks of girls being molested would put me in a dark place.

cartman · 01-30-2018, 05:32 PM

nope, nothing was mentioned to us

cartman · 01-30-2018, 05:42 PM

to molson's points:

yes, there were a lot of arguments between the lawyers where they sent us out of the courtroom and to the jury room. They had prepared us to expect it during voir dire, so it wasn't a surprise, or even much of a hassle. There were a couple of times it did seem to drag on longer than we expected, but there were other times where we went back in after only a couple of minutes. I didn't affect deliberations at all. As for discussions, we did a real good job of policing ourselves, and keeping away from any discussions during these breaks from containing anything that went on in the courtroom.

Yes, both the prosecutors and defense attorneys came to the jury room after sentencing was complete to talk to us. We spoke with them for about an hour or so about all of the stuff we had questions about, and they quizzed us as well about how we went about deliberating and our thought processes.

We had in the charge that we were only to consider the testimony and exhibits entered into evidence in making our decisions. The questions asked by the attorneys were not evidence, only the answers to those questions. In Texas, we were informed that an adult tongue kissing a minor is only a misdemeanor. He was not charged with that. But we were able to consider that in relation to the other charges if we all felt he had done that beyond a reasonable doubt. I feel we did a good job of following the charges. Both attorneys said that a split verdict like we had was rare, and it showed that we carefully considered the charges separately.

I don't think we had anyone that didn't base their decision on the evidence as it was presented. We did talk a bit about why somethings weren't discussed or brought up, but it didn't affect the verdicts that we had to unanimously agree to.

Butter · 01-31-2018, 06:08 AM

When it was 11-1, what was the reasoning of the 1?

cartman · 01-31-2018, 06:50 AM

We started of the deliberations with a straw poll to see where we stood. The one not guilty guy said that he didn't believe the testimony of the victim when she was on the stand. So we went back and watched the video and audio from when the patrol deputies arrived on the scene, and listened again to the 911 call from his (now ex) wife that said something had happened. We discussed all of that, and then got into specifics with him about what he didn't believe about the girl's testimony. Was it all of it he didn't believe, or only parts. And if only parts, which parts. We discussed this some more, then went back and focused on certain parts of the officer video. After some more discussion, he said that the doubts he had weren't reasonable ones, and voted for guilty. So I did a more formal vote, and then signed the verdict form for that charge.

PilotMan · 01-31-2018, 07:08 AM

How much did you make for your civil service?

Has this experience changed you? For example, the way you see due process? The court experience, police, lawyers? Or some other way that you might relate to the world?

cartman · 01-31-2018, 07:18 AM

$6 for the day we had voir dire, then $40 per day during the trial. $366 in total.

Probably still too soon to answer the second set of questions. I've been involved with civil trials before, so I've had exposure to that world before. But this was definitely my first time being on a criminal jury. I was impressed with my fellow jurors. I really thought it was going to be a lot more difficult to get 12 people to unanimously agree on anything, much less 4 charges then also punishment.

CrimsonFox · 01-31-2018, 07:52 AM

Was it the Scranton Strangler?

Butter · 01-31-2018, 09:35 AM

How did your work handle you being off for 3 weeks?

cartman · 01-31-2018, 09:39 AM

I had a lot of late nights and work on the weekends.

Coffee Warlord · 01-31-2018, 10:09 AM

I had a much easier case back in the day. If I remember, it was 3-4 days of trial on guy who sold a bunch of stolen weapons. Even that was emotionally draining. I couldn't imagine 3 weeks, on far worse charges.

corbes · 01-31-2018, 11:05 AM

Was there anything that the prosecutor did that was especially helpful for the jurors in making their decisions and performing their role? Did the prosecutor do anything unhelpful or distracting?

cartman · 01-31-2018, 11:15 AM

I thought the state did a great job. There were two prosecutors, and they worked well with each other. In their closing statements, they emphasized that we should rely on the testimony we heard, and not the narrative that the defense attorney tried to portray with his questions. When they came and spoke to us in the jury room after the trial, they admitted that their case for the younger girls was difficult to present, due to there being nothing we could use to corroborate other than the tape of their forensic interviews two and a half years ago, and their testimony on the stand. There is no way a little kid would be able to clearly testify about something like that as an adult would be able to do.

NobodyHere · 01-31-2018, 12:07 PM

Is there any sort of "guilt" (for lack of a better term) about sending a guy to prison for 20 years? If so, is that diluted by having 11 other people in on the decision?

cartman · 01-31-2018, 01:00 PM

Our jury directions were to determine a sentence between 2 and 20 years. Due to a screw up in the original indictment, we also had to unanimously agree that the victim was under the age of 14 when the offense occurred. If a victim is older than 14, then probation would have been an option.

Regarding the sentence, there was something that happened during the
punishment phase that made giving the 20 years a lot simpler. The defense brought in an expert on forensic psychology. He had interviewed the defendant back in 2015 after he was arrested. He said at that time the defendant confessed to him that he had indeed done what he was charged with on the count we ended up convicting him. He said the defendant told him he did it because he was curious and wanted to experiment to see what it felt like.

He also had three of his family members testify during the punishment phase (his 88 year old mom and his two sons). Each of them was asked by the State if they agreed with the jury's verdict and if they think he committed the offense for which he was convicted. All three answered yes to both questions.

There was more 'guilt' or 'second guessing' on the not guilty verdicts after these revelations. When the attorneys came back to the jury room after the trial, I asked the defense attorney point blank that since he admitted to the psychologist that he did what he was eventually convicted of doing, did he also confess to the other charges where we found him not guilty. He said that the expert did not receive any other admissions of guilt, but there was another expert that examined him, and that person said he told him there probably were other victims.

One of the jurors initially didn't agree with a 20 year sentence. They were concerned that it amounted to a death sentence. This juror also asked why there was such a range, 2 to 20, and what kind of case would only warrant a 2 year sentence. Some examples we could think of were maybe something came out in the punishment phase that completely contradicted what we heard in the guilt/innocence phase. Or if it was an 18 year old accused of something with a 16 year old. We pointed out that we weren't giving him a death sentence. None of us would have been there if he hadn't committed these acts. The juror grudgingly came around to the 20 year sentence, but I could tell they weren't completely on board.

Butter · 01-31-2018, 01:19 PM

How large was the jury pool to begin with, what kinds of things were people answering to get eliminated from the pool?

cartman · 01-31-2018, 01:37 PM

There were over 300 people who were sent notices, and around 200 or so showed up. If people were taking care of small kids or elderly parents, the judge excused them. Also if there were any college students, they were excused. This was also when we found out that the trial was expected to go between 2 and 4 weeks. The judge asked if anyone was the sole breadwinner and if they couldn't take the financial hit.

Also, as part of it there was a jury questionnaire. They told us this was the first time they could remember doing this for a non-capital case. That's was our first clue that the trial was going to be a sex crime, based on the questions. Those responses were private, so not sure what people had put there that got them excused.

Butter · 01-31-2018, 01:42 PM

Dramatic moments from the trial (aside from the obvious and sad)? Anything happen that either attorney didn't see coming?

cartman · 01-31-2018, 01:46 PM

Nope, nothing dramatic. The one thing that happened that the state didn't expect was when the defense's expert witness during the punishment phase told us about the confession.

Eaglesfan27 · 01-31-2018, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cartman

Nope, nothing dramatic. The one thing that happened that the state didn't expect was when the defense's expert witness during the punishment phase told us about the confession.

I was wondering why the defense called forth a witness who told of the confession. Very interesting that the psychologist would testify in such a way as a defense witness.

cartman · 01-31-2018, 01:59 PM

He was supposed to be telling us about his chance to re-offend based on interviews he had with him. They were also trying to paint a picture that he was suffering from early onset dementia, and possibly had a brain injury from a car wreck he was in as a child.

Carman Bulldog · 01-31-2018, 05:21 PM

Was there anything about the way either the Defence or Prosecution carried themselves or presented their case that you found particularly effective?

Likewise, was there anything that either the Defence or Prosecution could have done differently (not necessarily resulting in a different verdict), either in how they presented their case or how they carried themselves?

cartman · 01-31-2018, 05:31 PM

One thing we all (the jurors) noticed was the defense attorney and defendant motioning in a distracting manner while the state was doing their closing arguments. One of the charges involved how and where a girl was touched and they were evidently discussing with each other and motioning various ways hands could be positioned.

As I've mentioned before, I was very impressed with how the state presented their case. It was a very difficult situation for all involved, and the state handled it as well as could be expected. Very straightforward and matter of fact.

I had issues with some of the methods used by the defense, such as blatantly misrepresenting things over and over, but that is part of their job to muddy the waters as much as is legally possible.

nilodor · 01-31-2018, 05:41 PM

How different was it from what you see on L&O or the like?

cartman · 01-31-2018, 05:43 PM

Definitely wasn't wrapped up in an hour with commercial breaks.

molson · 01-31-2018, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cartman

I had issues with some of the methods used by the defense, such as blatantly misrepresenting things over and over, but that is part of their job to muddy the waters as much as is legally possible.

My bias will show here, but the state has the incentive to put forth a cleaner case because convictions can be appealed, whereas acquittals cannot. So for the defense, almost anything goes. That is a feature, and not a bug, of the process, but it does impact what goes on at trials.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cartman

our jury directions were to determine a sentence between 2 and 20 years.

What a heavy burden, that's pretty unique. In my state, and I think most states, the jury is specifically instructed not to take punishment into account at all when rendering a verdict, because that is, in every single case (except for death penalty cases), the sole decision of the judge at sentencing.

cartman · 01-31-2018, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson

What a heavy burden, that's pretty unique. In my state, and I think most states, the jury is specifically instructed not to take punishment into account at all when rendering a verdict, because that is, in every single case (except for death penalty cases), the sole decision of the judge at sentencing.

In Texas, the defendant can choose, if found guilty, to either let the judge decide the sentence or have the jury do it. But they have to decide before the trial starts. He chose for the jury to decide the punishment. So for the guilt/innocence phase, all we were to determine was guilty or not guilty. Once we rendered the guilty verdict on the one charge, that led to the punishment phase of the trial, which was like a mini version of the guilt/innocence phase. The state presented, then the defense, then another set of closing arguments. And then we started a new round of deliberations on the sentencing.

cartman · 01-02-2020, 01:09 PM

So the guy's appeal has been heard, and the judges came to the unanimous decision that there were no reversible errors in the trial or the verdict.

CrimsonFox · 01-02-2020, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cartman

In Texas, the defendant can choose, if found guilty, to either let the judge decide the sentence or have the jury do it. But they have to decide before the trial starts. He chose for the jury to decide the punishment. So for the guilt/innocence phase, all we were to determine was guilty or not guilty. Once we rendered the guilty verdict on the one charge, that led to the punishment phase of the trial, which was like a mini version of the guilt/innocence phase. The state presented, then the defense, then another set of closing arguments. And then we started a new round of deliberations on the sentencing.

OMG that's kind of awful! :0

they make the jury determine the number of years??

CrimsonFox · 01-02-2020, 03:23 PM

this sounds like a horrible experience...

and yeah huge problem with the little kids because they don't often know what to say and merely say things to please adults.

cartman · 01-02-2020, 03:36 PM

it is sometimes strange how the cosmos works. Just went to the mailbox, and guess what I had waiting? That's right, a jury summons for the 13th.

JediKooter · 01-02-2020, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cartman

it is sometimes strange how the cosmos works. Just went to the mailbox, and guess what I had waiting? That's right, a jury summons for the 13th.

What are the rules about that in Texas? Here in California (unless it's changed) if you have served on a jury, then you are supposed to be exempt for the next 3 years (I think).

cartman · 01-02-2020, 04:09 PM

In Texas, it is the previous 3 months in county court, 6 months in district court

JediKooter · 01-02-2020, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cartman

In Texas, it is the previous 3 months in county court, 6 months in district court

Ouch! Just looked it up, looks like it's 1 year for California. You must have really impressed them down there at the courthouse if they already want you back.

CrimsonFox · 01-02-2020, 04:35 PM

out of curiosity...how did the guy act during trial. What did he look like?
Did either effect your decision?

01-30-2018, 03:11 PM	#3
cartman Death Herald Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas	Might have been in the news locally, but not a headliner or anything. Weren't sequestered at any point, we were allowed to go home each night. __________________ Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint

01-30-2018, 03:12 PM	#4
NobodyHere Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2013	How long did the deliberations take? __________________ "I am God's prophet, and I need an attorney"

01-30-2018, 03:14 PM	#5
cartman Death Herald Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas	We deliberated on the charges all day Thursday and Friday. There were 4 charges in total. Yesterday and today were the punishment phase of the trial. We deliberated for about an hour on the sentence. __________________ Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint

01-30-2018, 03:30 PM	#8
cartman Death Herald Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas	It was a 63 year old guy accused of sexually abusing three of his step granddaughters ages 10, 7, and 5 back in 2015. There were four counts. One involving the 10 year old, two involving the 7 year old, and one involving the 5 year old. For the charge involving the 10 year old, the case was rock solid. We started out deliberations 11-1 in favor of guilty. It didn't take too long for the hold out to also decide on guilty. Due to the ages of the other two girls, and since this happened over 2.5 years ago, that part of the trial was incredibly difficult to parse through. For the 10 year old, there were police recordings and evidence from the day after it happened. For the other two girls, their accusations came out later during the investigations. Their testimony was all over the place, and often contradicted itself. We on the jury were sure that something had happened to the girls, but we weren't able to get consensus on those charges being beyond a reasonable doubt, so we had to vote not guilty on those. __________________ Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint

01-30-2018, 04:06 PM	#10
cartman Death Herald Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas	127.0.0.1 __________________ Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint

01-30-2018, 03:09 PM	#2
RainMaker General Manager Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chicago, IL	Is it in the news? Were you sequestered the whole time or allowed to go home?

01-30-2018, 03:21 PM	#6
RainMaker General Manager Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chicago, IL	Did you have to convince a lot of people or were most in agreement? Also what did the person do?

01-30-2018, 03:25 PM	#7
CU Tiger Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Backwoods, SC	What were the charges?

01-30-2018, 04:05 PM	#9
sovereignstar v2 hates iowa Join Date: Oct 2010	What's your address?

01-30-2018, 04:49 PM	#11
dawgfan Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Seattle	Are you OK? Sounds like a rough trial to have to be a part of. Last edited by dawgfan : 01-30-2018 at 04:50 PM.

01-30-2018, 04:54 PM	#12
cartman Death Herald Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas	I was a basket case on Friday night. I broke down crying on the way home. It was tough having to give the not guilty verdicts on the charges involving the two girls while they were in the courtroom with their parents. It was incredibly difficult to hear some of the testimony. __________________ Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint

01-30-2018, 05:10 PM	#13
NobodyHere Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2013	Since you were foreman, did the other jurors respect your authoritah? __________________ "I am God's prophet, and I need an attorney"

01-30-2018, 05:15 PM	#14
cartman Death Herald Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas	yes, most definitely. Still not quite sure why they chose me, but it was a fairly quick decision. __________________ Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint

01-30-2018, 05:26 PM	#15
molson General Manager Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: The Mountains	At work, I spend many hours pouring over criminal trial transcripts, evidence, pretrial motions and orders, etc - everything is so well documented, but then there's this one area that is a complete mystery - what goes on in the jury room. And of course, none of us will ever be able to be on a criminal jury again, so it's kind of this fascinating wonderland. So, from that perspective..... Were there a lot of occasions where the jury was excused from the courtroom for the lawyers and judge to argue and discuss things outside your presence? Did you find that annoying, and do think any of the jurors held that against either side, or that it otherwise impacted the deliberations? Was there any open speculation about what the lawyers might have been discussing in those instances? Did any of the lawyers want to talk to you afterwards? Did you? Was there any limiting instructions provided at trial ("you are only to consider this evidence for X purpose"), and do you think the jury was faithfully able and/or willing to follow instructions like that? Did you ever feel like any of the jurors were making factual findings based on some improper basis, or speculated about what type of evidence might have been excluded from trial?

01-30-2018, 05:30 PM	#16
RainMaker General Manager Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chicago, IL	Do they offer any kind of counseling to jurors after a trial like this? I feel like listening to 3 weeks of girls being molested would put me in a dark place.

01-30-2018, 05:32 PM	#17
cartman Death Herald Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas	nope, nothing was mentioned to us __________________ Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint

01-30-2018, 05:42 PM	#18
cartman Death Herald Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas	to molson's points: yes, there were a lot of arguments between the lawyers where they sent us out of the courtroom and to the jury room. They had prepared us to expect it during voir dire, so it wasn't a surprise, or even much of a hassle. There were a couple of times it did seem to drag on longer than we expected, but there were other times where we went back in after only a couple of minutes. I didn't affect deliberations at all. As for discussions, we did a real good job of policing ourselves, and keeping away from any discussions during these breaks from containing anything that went on in the courtroom. Yes, both the prosecutors and defense attorneys came to the jury room after sentencing was complete to talk to us. We spoke with them for about an hour or so about all of the stuff we had questions about, and they quizzed us as well about how we went about deliberating and our thought processes. We had in the charge that we were only to consider the testimony and exhibits entered into evidence in making our decisions. The questions asked by the attorneys were not evidence, only the answers to those questions. In Texas, we were informed that an adult tongue kissing a minor is only a misdemeanor. He was not charged with that. But we were able to consider that in relation to the other charges if we all felt he had done that beyond a reasonable doubt. I feel we did a good job of following the charges. Both attorneys said that a split verdict like we had was rare, and it showed that we carefully considered the charges separately. I don't think we had anyone that didn't base their decision on the evidence as it was presented. We did talk a bit about why somethings weren't discussed or brought up, but it didn't affect the verdicts that we had to unanimously agree to. __________________ Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint

01-31-2018, 06:08 AM	#19
Butter Coordinator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Dayton, OH	When it was 11-1, what was the reasoning of the 1? __________________ My listening habits

01-31-2018, 06:50 AM	#20
cartman Death Herald Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas	We started of the deliberations with a straw poll to see where we stood. The one not guilty guy said that he didn't believe the testimony of the victim when she was on the stand. So we went back and watched the video and audio from when the patrol deputies arrived on the scene, and listened again to the 911 call from his (now ex) wife that said something had happened. We discussed all of that, and then got into specifics with him about what he didn't believe about the girl's testimony. Was it all of it he didn't believe, or only parts. And if only parts, which parts. We discussed this some more, then went back and focused on certain parts of the officer video. After some more discussion, he said that the doubts he had weren't reasonable ones, and voted for guilty. So I did a more formal vote, and then signed the verdict form for that charge. __________________ Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint

01-31-2018, 07:08 AM	#21
PilotMan Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Seven miles up	How much did you make for your civil service? Has this experience changed you? For example, the way you see due process? The court experience, police, lawyers? Or some other way that you might relate to the world? __________________ He's just like if Snow White was competitive, horny, and capable of beating the shit out of anyone that called her Pops. Like Steam? Join the FOFC Steam group here: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/FOFConSteam

01-31-2018, 07:18 AM	#22
cartman Death Herald Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas	$6 for the day we had voir dire, then $40 per day during the trial. $366 in total. Probably still too soon to answer the second set of questions. I've been involved with civil trials before, so I've had exposure to that world before. But this was definitely my first time being on a criminal jury. I was impressed with my fellow jurors. I really thought it was going to be a lot more difficult to get 12 people to unanimously agree on anything, much less 4 charges then also punishment. __________________ Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint

01-31-2018, 07:52 AM	#23
CrimsonFox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2009	Was it the Scranton Strangler?

01-31-2018, 09:35 AM	#24
Butter Coordinator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Dayton, OH	How did your work handle you being off for 3 weeks? __________________ My listening habits

01-31-2018, 09:39 AM	#25
cartman Death Herald Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas	I had a lot of late nights and work on the weekends. __________________ Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint

01-31-2018, 10:09 AM	#26
Coffee Warlord Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Colorado Springs	I had a much easier case back in the day. If I remember, it was 3-4 days of trial on guy who sold a bunch of stolen weapons. Even that was emotionally draining. I couldn't imagine 3 weeks, on far worse charges.

01-31-2018, 11:05 AM	#27
corbes College Benchwarmer Join Date: Nov 2003	Was there anything that the prosecutor did that was especially helpful for the jurors in making their decisions and performing their role? Did the prosecutor do anything unhelpful or distracting?

01-31-2018, 11:15 AM	#28
cartman Death Herald Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas	I thought the state did a great job. There were two prosecutors, and they worked well with each other. In their closing statements, they emphasized that we should rely on the testimony we heard, and not the narrative that the defense attorney tried to portray with his questions. When they came and spoke to us in the jury room after the trial, they admitted that their case for the younger girls was difficult to present, due to there being nothing we could use to corroborate other than the tape of their forensic interviews two and a half years ago, and their testimony on the stand. There is no way a little kid would be able to clearly testify about something like that as an adult would be able to do. __________________ Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint

01-31-2018, 12:07 PM	#29
NobodyHere Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2013	Is there any sort of "guilt" (for lack of a better term) about sending a guy to prison for 20 years? If so, is that diluted by having 11 other people in on the decision? __________________ "I am God's prophet, and I need an attorney"

01-31-2018, 01:00 PM	#30
cartman Death Herald Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas	Our jury directions were to determine a sentence between 2 and 20 years. Due to a screw up in the original indictment, we also had to unanimously agree that the victim was under the age of 14 when the offense occurred. If a victim is older than 14, then probation would have been an option. Regarding the sentence, there was something that happened during the punishment phase that made giving the 20 years a lot simpler. The defense brought in an expert on forensic psychology. He had interviewed the defendant back in 2015 after he was arrested. He said at that time the defendant confessed to him that he had indeed done what he was charged with on the count we ended up convicting him. He said the defendant told him he did it because he was curious and wanted to experiment to see what it felt like. He also had three of his family members testify during the punishment phase (his 88 year old mom and his two sons). Each of them was asked by the State if they agreed with the jury's verdict and if they think he committed the offense for which he was convicted. All three answered yes to both questions. There was more 'guilt' or 'second guessing' on the not guilty verdicts after these revelations. When the attorneys came back to the jury room after the trial, I asked the defense attorney point blank that since he admitted to the psychologist that he did what he was eventually convicted of doing, did he also confess to the other charges where we found him not guilty. He said that the expert did not receive any other admissions of guilt, but there was another expert that examined him, and that person said he told him there probably were other victims. One of the jurors initially didn't agree with a 20 year sentence. They were concerned that it amounted to a death sentence. This juror also asked why there was such a range, 2 to 20, and what kind of case would only warrant a 2 year sentence. Some examples we could think of were maybe something came out in the punishment phase that completely contradicted what we heard in the guilt/innocence phase. Or if it was an 18 year old accused of something with a 16 year old. We pointed out that we weren't giving him a death sentence. None of us would have been there if he hadn't committed these acts. The juror grudgingly came around to the 20 year sentence, but I could tell they weren't completely on board. __________________ Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint

01-31-2018, 01:19 PM	#31
Butter Coordinator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Dayton, OH	How large was the jury pool to begin with, what kinds of things were people answering to get eliminated from the pool? __________________ My listening habits

01-31-2018, 01:37 PM	#32
cartman Death Herald Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas	There were over 300 people who were sent notices, and around 200 or so showed up. If people were taking care of small kids or elderly parents, the judge excused them. Also if there were any college students, they were excused. This was also when we found out that the trial was expected to go between 2 and 4 weeks. The judge asked if anyone was the sole breadwinner and if they couldn't take the financial hit. Also, as part of it there was a jury questionnaire. They told us this was the first time they could remember doing this for a non-capital case. That's was our first clue that the trial was going to be a sex crime, based on the questions. Those responses were private, so not sure what people had put there that got them excused. __________________ Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint Last edited by cartman : 01-31-2018 at 01:42 PM.

01-31-2018, 01:42 PM	#33
Butter Coordinator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Dayton, OH	Dramatic moments from the trial (aside from the obvious and sad)? Anything happen that either attorney didn't see coming? __________________ My listening habits Last edited by Butter : 01-31-2018 at 01:43 PM.

01-31-2018, 01:46 PM	#34
cartman Death Herald Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas	Nope, nothing dramatic. The one thing that happened that the state didn't expect was when the defense's expert witness during the punishment phase told us about the confession. __________________ Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint

01-31-2018, 01:59 PM	#36
cartman Death Herald Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas	He was supposed to be telling us about his chance to re-offend based on interviews he had with him. They were also trying to paint a picture that he was suffering from early onset dementia, and possibly had a brain injury from a car wreck he was in as a child. __________________ Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint

01-31-2018, 05:21 PM	#37
Carman Bulldog College Benchwarmer Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Canada	Was there anything about the way either the Defence or Prosecution carried themselves or presented their case that you found particularly effective? Likewise, was there anything that either the Defence or Prosecution could have done differently (not necessarily resulting in a different verdict), either in how they presented their case or how they carried themselves? Last edited by Carman Bulldog : 01-31-2018 at 05:22 PM.