Werewolf CXXXIII - The Dark Knight - MOBSTERS WIN

[hoopsguy]

Actually, I think that I would make the reveal as Dawes every time in that spot - there is no way that I would go down by lynch without providing the village information that I held.

As a wolf? Ideally, I would want some kind of a reveal that couldn't be countered rather than a role that is almost certainly in the game. For example, in Star Wars I came up with some kind of "visited by Ben Kenobi" role or something along those lines ... details of past games are starting to get a little hazy as the years pass. But I went off the board rather than picking something that was almost sure to be contested. And as a wolf I would make sure that I had dropped hints in the thread to back my claim up - something I did not do in this game. I didn't want to get cute with a seer role I had picked up later in the game ... figured I would just reveal it outright when push came to shove. Which it did last night when I couldn't get any meaningful movement over the first 22.5 hours of our day.

The speculation on what I would do as a wolf is kind of interesting, I guess. But not terribly pertinent to the situation at hand.

[Tyrith]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Actually, I think that I would make the reveal as Dawes every time in that spot - there is no way that I would go down by lynch without providing the village information that I held.

As a wolf? Ideally, I would want some kind of a reveal that couldn't be countered rather than a role that is almost certainly in the game. For example, in Star Wars I came up with some kind of "visited by Ben Kenobi" role or something along those lines ... details of past games are starting to get a little hazy as the years pass. But I went off the board rather than picking something that was almost sure to be contested. And as a wolf I would make sure that I had dropped hints in the thread to back my claim up - something I did not do in this game. I didn't want to get cute with a seer role I had picked up later in the game ... figured I would just reveal it outright when push came to shove. Which it did last night when I couldn't get any meaningful movement over the first 22.5 hours of our day.

The speculation on what I would do as a wolf is kind of interesting, I guess. But not terribly pertinent to the situation at hand.

Honestly, the claims that you would actively try to do something different as a villager and as a wolf somewhat specious. That would just be leaving a pattern that could be discerned. And, honestly, there are so many judgmental calls as to when you could reveal during the day that I have to go back to what I said before - which is to make my call based off what I thought before all these reveals started.

If you had tried an off the board reveal here as a wolf it wouldn't have worked; there doesn't seem to be much leverage in the rules for that sort of thing.

[hoopsguy]

History suggests that you might be surprised what I can get away with

But seriously, I'm not sure what other information/arguments there are for me to make today. If you believe Crimson more than me then we'll have a lousy lynch and potentially lose the game. If you believe me more than Crimson we'll get a wolf today and be playing again tomorrow. Fundamentally, it really is that simple.

[Abe Sargent]

CF - I still want the flavor answer from you, like I got it from hoops

[Tyrith]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

History suggests that you might be surprised what I can get away with

But seriously, I'm not sure what other information/arguments there are for me to make today. If you believe Crimson more than me then we'll have a lousy lynch and potentially lose the game. If you believe me more than Crimson we'll get a wolf today and be playing again tomorrow. Fundamentally, it really is that simple.

It is, except for the possibility that we'll have to switch around some of the clauses in that sentence. :P

[MrBug708]

Looks like a standoff, but Im guessing CF is going to go after me anyways if Hoops is a wolf and we'll still lose anyways. No sense drawing the game out past this

Vote - DV

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Looks like a standoff, but Im guessing CF is going to go after me anyways if Hoops is a wolf and we'll still lose anyways. No sense drawing the game out past this

Vote - DV

explain thta more to me, I don;t get that reasoning in one sentance

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

explain thta more to me, I don;t get that reasoning in one sentance

Looking it over, my math was wrong. It would go from 5-3, to 5-2. Once I'm killed it would go to 4-2.

I was thinking if Hoops was good and then I was still killed, which wouldn't make much sense in hindsight

[CrimsonFox]

You guys kill me. You guys had analyzed hoops to the point where you were going to lynch him. The only thing he does is reveal and you suddenly forget all that. ANd then he leads you to killing Chubby a now known villager and you still want to believe him. You deserve to lose if that's the case.

Here's the new ending then. I'll rip off my clothes, put on the black and red spandex onessy after all, become Harley QUinn and bust the Joker out of jail. Now THAT'S an ending. And hoops, please upt me on the payroll. I should at least get something out of it.

[Tyrith]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

You guys kill me. You guys had analyzed hoops to the point where you were going to lynch him. The only thing he does is reveal and you suddenly forget all that. ANd then he leads you to killing Chubby a now known villager and you still want to believe him. You deserve to lose if that's the case.

Here's the new ending then. I'll rip off my clothes, put on the black and red spandex onessy after all, become Harley QUinn and bust the Joker out of jail. Now THAT'S an ending. And hoops, please upt me on the payroll. I should at least get something out of it.

I'm not sure if this is a villager or a wolf, but it's pretty hilarious either way.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

If CF was really a seer, why did Autumn wait to get a new one? Remember when Autumn asked if we should get a change then or the following day? If that role was a seer, I wouldn't ask that question, I would get a new person in as fast as possible.

I really have a problem with this comment. Autumn is not you. He is running his game the way he runs it making decisions as he sees. He is not going to run it and make decisions like you would. And it's totally metagamey. But shortly after the game started I told Autumn I'd be a backup if he needed one seeing as the inactivity level of some was getting kinda high. He tried for a couple days apparently but I don't know the full story nor should it be relevant. I pinged him finally saying I if it seemed like everyone was good to please let me off the hook or let me know as I wanted to chat about the game. That same afternoon he came back with a "hang on I may need you after all" type of comment, asked me if I"d be around that night, then asked you guys if you minded (which is actually quite courteous), then put me in before deadline instead of waiting another day for ntn.

And to followup on your beginning of the game comment about voting for frequent utrs at the beginning of the game, no one is trying to force or change the way they play, rather they are trying to force them TOO play. And we are now experiencing the consequences of inactives.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

and to be more specific:

Abe is batman - that's probably not refutable although I have to WONDER now if the Dark Knight really IS dark.

j23 - he was JUST scanned and is clean.

tyrith was clean in my book due to his votes and his hoops vote makes him definite clean.

mckerney I'll give a pass to for the same reason.


Bug has avoided answering questions and has crappy votes. WOlf
hoops...well fake reveal = real wolf.

to j23 and someone else that asked why I would clear people like tyrith and mckerney, this post I posted right AFTER the one you're quoting because I was expecting such questions. You might have missed it. Actually Bug pretty much just outted himself fully with his diatribes now. I was guessing he was wolf simply by process of elimination.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

I really have a problem with this comment. Autumn is not you. He is running his game the way he runs it making decisions as he sees. He is not going to run it and make decisions like you would. And it's totally metagamey. But shortly after the game started I told Autumn I'd be a backup if he needed one seeing as the inactivity level of some was getting kinda high. He tried for a couple days apparently but I don't know the full story nor should it be relevant. I pinged him finally saying I if it seemed like everyone was good to please let me off the hook or let me know as I wanted to chat about the game. That same afternoon he came back with a "hang on I may need you after all" type of comment, asked me if I"d be around that night, then asked you guys if you minded (which is actually quite courteous), then put me in before deadline instead of waiting another day for ntn.

And to followup on your beginning of the game comment about voting for frequent utrs at the beginning of the game, no one is trying to force or change the way they play, rather they are trying to force them TOO play. And we are now experiencing the consequences of inactives.

Why are you bringing that up now?

[Abe Sargent]

CF, you've been ducking my flavor question all day. I asked last night when you were here, and you didn;t answer, yet you made other posts showing you were here. I asked before I went to bed, and I didn;t have an answer when I got up at noon. I asked again a 12:22, and you still have yet to answer, despite many posts.

That looks very wolfish, you have to admit.

[Tyrith]

From an outside of the current game perspective, I agree with CF. I think bringing in the replacement time into judging CF's reveal crosses the metagame line for me. The seer being inactive really does foul with game balance, but as a GM sometimes that can't be helped - we can't guide the result we want into happening. That is something that was hard for me to resist while doing the Marvel games with hoops.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Interesting. If you are the Seer, you certainly would quantify anyone as "safe" unless you actually scanned them. You wouldn't have called anyone specific wolves unless you know for sure which, as a villager, makes me think you are lying.

You see, there is this game called werewolf. And in it you try and determine who are good players and who are bad players. You do so by judging which statments are false and real and look up voting actions and such and by process of elimination as you find more wolves, you can figure out who the rest of the wolves are.

It's a fascinating game. I'll teach it to you sometime.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

CF, you've been ducking my flavor question all day. I asked last night when you were here, and you didn;t answer, yet you made other posts showing you were here. I asked before I went to bed, and I didn;t have an answer when I got up at noon. I asked again a 12:22, and you still have yet to answer, despite many posts.

That looks very wolfish, you have to admit.

I went to bed after I revealed as I was pissed off and still am. Mostly because I was pretty much forced to move and a cat I've been with for five years, since it was a kitten, I will now never get to see again. I just got on and am answering questions now. I don't totally understand what you want. YOu want what flavor text I received? I can't quote PMs you know that. What exactly do you want.

Autumn gave me the same PM he sent ntn. It was only a few sentences long. In the same PM he told me the scan history (what ntn did scanned and that he missed scans).

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

Why are you bringing that up now?

Only because it's been on my mind since the beginning of the game and am actually playing now. I wasn't before so I couldn't really say anything. It just bothered me is all.

[Abe Sargent]

I've asked the question numerous times in numerous ways, and hoops has answered, so I don;t get the anger in the question. Just read one of my three or four times I've asked, and often in detail. But here, I'll help you out since you seem to be in a bad mood. What were you doing last night in order to seer? How does your seer work, within the flavor of the game? How does ADA Rachel Dawes find criminals?

[Danny]

You and me batty ain't nothing but mammals, so let's do it like they do on the discovery channel.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

You see, there is this game called werewolf. And in it you try and determine who are good players and who are bad players. You do so by judging which statments are false and real and look up voting actions and such and by process of elimination as you find more wolves, you can figure out who the rest of the wolves are.

It's a fascinating game. I'll teach it to you sometime.

So what are the marks against me?

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

I went to bed after I revealed as I was pissed off and still am. Mostly because I was pretty much forced to move and a cat I've been with for five years, since it was a kitten, I will now never get to see again. I just got on and am answering questions now. I don't totally understand what you want. YOu want what flavor text I received? I can't quote PMs you know that. What exactly do you want.

Autumn gave me the same PM he sent ntn. It was only a few sentences long. In the same PM he told me the scan history (what ntn did scanned and that he missed scans).

Im going to go out on a limb and guess that every scan is dead now?

[CrimsonFox]

I've basically just been saying "I scan so-and-so".

I am paraphrasing here as you want metagamey info and I can't quote that.
The responses I get back include things like you investigate so and so...and you pore over his bank accounts, criminal record, interview neighbors, get a wiretap on so and so, etc. Both times I've gotten the response of clean as a whistle.

[CrimsonFox]

But the responses are short. one-two sentences tops.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

You guys kill me. You guys had analyzed hoops to the point where you were going to lynch him. The only thing he does is reveal and you suddenly forget all that. ANd then he leads you to killing Chubby a now known villager and you still want to believe him. You deserve to lose if that's the case.

Here's the new ending then. I'll rip off my clothes, put on the black and red spandex onessy after all, become Harley QUinn and bust the Joker out of jail. Now THAT'S an ending. And hoops, please upt me on the payroll. I should at least get something out of it.

"only thing he does is reveal" - well, that is kind of important in the overall scheme of things

"leads you to killing Chubby a now known villager" - sadly, until today I didn't have a scan that indicated wolf. Which is ironic, seeing as how I scanned you the previous day.

"deserve to lose" - it has been a challenging game, but it is there to be won at this point.

"Harley Quinn" - I need to read up on my Batman; I've always been a Marvel comics guy, so these references have been lost on me all game.

"put me on the payroll" - I would hope our HR department would keep the likes of you out of the mix, but you never know in Gotham

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Im going to go out on a limb and guess that every scan is dead now?

since you apparently cannot read, i will speak to you slowly the way dori speaks to whales...

n...t....n....missed....most....of....his.....scan....orders.....he....on-ly....got....
one.....in.....and.....it.....was.....stymied.....by....the....judge.....

on....a.....flavor...note....the....reason....it....was......stymied....was.....because....he.....did....not....give....out....
the......proper.....warrants....needed....due.....to.....some....issues....between...
the....judge.....and....the.....DA's....office.....
(remember ZInto was corrupt. when he was corrupted or if he started the game that way, I have no idea. As I also said before, I cannot detect whether a villager is coirrupt or not in my scans.)

[Abe Sargent]

Wow, way to get the citizens on your side there CF.

[Autumn]

Gotham News Hot Off the Presses

darth vilus - mckerney (1903), abe sargent (1907), J23 (1924), mrbug708 (1956)
hoopsguy - darth vilus (1906), crimsonfox (1925), tyrith (1943)

[Darth Vilus]

heading out for the day. Kill hoops, he's a wolf :-)

[J23]

I'm sorry to hear about the RL stuff going on w/ you CF, but you have to see that your responses are a bit offputting, and the game rides on the decisions we make today in regards to you v. Hoops.

[J23]

unvote DV
vote Hoops

Things just aren't adding up w/ the reveal.

If Hoops is the seer, and cleared CF, why would CF reveal as the seer when he'd have to be a cunning? He could ride that scan until the endgame most likely.

If Hoops is the seer, why did the wolves attack CR last night instead of him? It doesn't make sense to me.

The more I turn things over in my head, the more I think CF is crazy, but legit, and that Hoops is a wolf.

[hoopsguy]

Does anyone want a lollipop?

Just trying to have some fun with the way that Crimson is playing the crowd

[mckerney]

Unvote DV

[hoopsguy]

In all seriousness, I'm getting worried at this point about the vote going the wrong way with J23 voting for me in this spot.

But I don't know how to answer why the wolves made the choices they made with the kill last night. I would have thought taking me out and banking the only "good scan" in the game would be optimal as well. It isn't like they had to "role hunt" in this spot since they knew about Dawes + Batman.

Bottom line, I agree with your logic in what would be optimal wolf play but not with your conclusion where it has me as the wolf in today's showdown.

[CrimsonFox]

Bug, here's a question. Hoops "cleared" me with a "scan". So if you believe HIM, then why are YOU calling ME a wolf?

[J23]

Either you did a very well thought out fake reveal that unfortunately named the seer as your cleared guy and got unlucky, or the wolves played very unorthodox and it's worked enough to fool me.

Right now, I'm giving you credit for a great, but fake, reveal.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by J23

Either you did a very well thought out fake reveal that unfortunately named the seer as your cleared guy and got unlucky, or the wolves played very unorthodox and it's worked enough to fool me.

Right now, I'm giving you credit for a great, but fake, reveal.

Thanks, Tyrith.

[J23]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Bug, here's a question. Hoops "cleared" me with a "scan". So if you believe HIM, then why are YOU calling ME a wolf?

The arguement would be that you're the cunning.

Why you counter-reveal as the seer as the cunning is the thing I wouldn't expect from you (or anyone in that position), which is why I swapped my vote.

[CrimsonFox]

village, also please do not make this come down to a pissing contest between "i believe hoops or i believe CF". Do not throw out all the info from the entire game and just make a blind guess. That happens too often in endgame, like the dr who game with juggler/jag/mauboy. No, I'm not being nice. Yes I'm being bitchy. I'm being blunt. Niceness didn't work for JAG then so I'm not going to be nice now. I have no problem telling the wolves or anyone who is saying something that is full of crap, that they are full of crap.

[J23]

The problem with trying to look at the whole game CF, is that ntn wasn't active for most of the game, so we can only look at Hoops, and when the village has killed as many fellow villagers as we have, everyone looks bad.

[hoopsguy]

Crimson, it doesn't need to be either nice or mean. But I would suggest that there is a certain amount of professionalism between us and some general civility to the other people out there who do have a (apparently difficult) decision to make today.

Once games get up to 20+ players and 2,000+ posts you have to acknowledge that there is a lot of ground to cover. People aren't going to recall every post, they aren't necessarily going to agree with your point of view, and none of these things in a vacuum make them dumb/evil/wolfish. Lets just make sure we're doing what we can to foster a game where 20+ people want to play along with us next time around.

Oh, and you're a freaking mobster and I can't believe you might get away with this! Grumble, grumble, grumble.

[hoopsguy]

Dola - meant to read:
But I would suggest that there should be a certain amount of professionalism between us and some general civility to the other people out there who do have a (apparently difficult) decision to make today.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by J23

The arguement would be that you're the cunning.

Why you counter-reveal as the seer as the cunning is the thing I wouldn't expect from you (or anyone in that position), which is why I swapped my vote.

Yes that's another thing I was going to add. If I was an ordinary villager, then I believe hoops and just vote with the pack. If I were a wolf, then I keep my mouth shut and kill hoops. J23 the hints btw I was giving, even right before I left yesterday, was that I thought Chubby and Tyrith were good. I had said that most game. I somewhat expected to be killed by a night kill or at least had to do something in case I was. Ergo, if I were killed you would know that Chubby was safe and would probably think Tyrith was definitely safe too. And yes Tyrith was NOT a scan but as I said, his votes seem to match villager. I almost didn't mention Tyrith but I thought JUST saying Chubby would very much make it definitive to the wolves that I was scanning people. Abe had put suspicion on me with a vote yesterday. Maybe THAT was the reason I wasn't killed.

[Tyrith]

Well, I'm glad that I'm not completely insane, at least, as much as hoops might wish I were :P

[hoopsguy]

Nope, not insane. Just determined to lose the game today.

[J23]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Nope, not insane. Just determined to lose the game today.

Why do you assume he's a villager that will lose rather than a wolf who would win?

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by J23

Why do you assume he's a villager that will lose rather than a wolf who would win?

Reply was actually meant for both of you. In terms of Tyrith specifically, I don't think it is particularly +EV to gun for me some blatantly in werewolf games. And I haven't seen him play the out-in-front wolf style before. But obviously I'm continuing to have to re-evaluate that assessment the further this goes on.

The other part is that I already know two wolves - Darth + Crimson. So the chances of any particular player being the third wolf is noticeably lower. There isn't a fourth wolf because (as noted earlier by Abe) the game would already be over, unless there are some really funky winning conditions.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Pay dirt - got a wolf! Can't see any reason to play it slow in this spot. Thank you for the opportunity to get one more in before closing up shop.

VOTE DARTH VILUS

I didn't see this in the vote recaps (post #1899).

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

village, also please do not make this come down to a pissing contest between "i believe hoops or i believe CF". Do not throw out all the info from the entire game and just make a blind guess. That happens too often in endgame, like the dr who game with juggler/jag/mauboy. No, I'm not being nice. Yes I'm being bitchy. I'm being blunt. Niceness didn't work for JAG then so I'm not going to be nice now. I have no problem telling the wolves or anyone who is saying something that is full of crap, that they are full of crap.

Why not vote me since I'm clearly a wolf?

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Why not vote me since I'm clearly a wolf?

Because the wolves all need to pile on one candidate today. Just waiting for the other shoe to drop with mckerney later today and the noose will be pretty tight around my neck. Not in a "hooray villager" sort of way, but more in a "damn, what did we do" manner.