Dangerous Precedent to set

[Arles]

Farrah just forwarded this on to me and it's a pretty crazy (if it is indeed true):

http://komonews.com/stories/35494.htm

Bill Would Hold Game Makers Accountable For Players' Actions

March 1, 2005
By George Howell

SEATTLE - Should the people who make and sell "violent video" games be held accountable if someone commits a crime because of playing them?

That's something our state lawmakers are considering, to open game makers up to more liability.

House Bill 2178 proposes to hold the makers and sellers of violent video games liable if someone under 17 years old commits a crime, due in any part, to playing the game.

Supporters of the bill, like Bill Hanson with the Washington Police and Sheriff's Association, say "kids" are getting the games, and they're becoming desensitized.

"If you sit up and watch this and play these games over and over again... it seems that this is alright to walk up and hit a police officer over the head with a bat," Hanson said.

Opponents argue that the proposed bill would shift the responsibility from the person who actually committed the crime.

Lew McMurran, with the Washington Software Association, says violent games are clearly rated for adults only, and that the responsibility should be on parents to use the video game rating system and control what their kids are playing.

"We're removing the responsibility from the person who committed the act, to somebody else who's completely removed from the situation" McMurran said. "There's a very strong video game industry in this state that we want to support. We don't want to bring undo attention to an area where there's actually jobs being created, where there's actually some good economic development in our state"

House Bill 2178 is still in the committee stage in the state House of Representatives.

[sterlingice]

I can't see this as anything but a horrible, horrible idea.

I guess if there was a game called "bomb maker" that showed people how to make realistic bombs than that's one thing. But if you're allowed to sue Rockstar for people stealing cars, that's just stupid.

SI

[flere-imsaho]

I don't know. I happen to think that teaching kids to blow up demons with a rocket launcher is a good thing. We'll all be thanking our lucky stars when Hell attacks.

[SackAttack]

But heaven forbid we should hold the parents accountable who wink and nod at game ratings before buying their children M-rated titles.

I mean, it couldn't POSSIBLY be piss-poor parents at fault here.

[dawgfan]

Well, considering our legislature is also drawing up plans to split the state in two (which ain't gonna happen), I'll hold off on getting too excited about this news until I hear that this bill actually has a shot at becoming law.

I agree though, it would be a dangerous precedent to set. I also don't like the selective enforcement inherent in this bill - why should game makers be targeted and not television producers or movie producers? Why should we treat the makers of violent games any different than we do the makers of other violent forms of media?

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Well, considering our legislature is also drawing up plans to split the state in two (which ain't gonna happen), I'll hold off on getting too excited about this news until I hear that this bill actually has a shot at becoming law.

I agree though, it would be a dangerous precedent to set. I also don't like the selective enforcement inherent in this bill - why should game makers be targeted and not television producers or movie producers? Why should we treat the makers of violent games any different than we do the makers of other violent forms of media?

If it wasn't for the fact that we're putting in a fricking monorail, I wouldn't be worried.

The article - Has there been a noticable rise in police officers being bopped on the head with baseball bats? I haven't seen anything in the news.

[Ksyrup]

Some people clearly need to be told to

[Sharpieman]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

But heaven forbid we should hold the parents accountable who wink and nod at game ratings before buying their children M-rated titles.

I mean, it couldn't POSSIBLY be piss-poor parents at fault here.

Right now in America its pretty obvious that there is a centralization of responsibility. We've moved from making parents responsible for their children to the federal government being the moms and dads of the country. Ironically, its the parents that have accidently started this movement by pushing for legislation that will give the fed more control over what their children play, watch and listen to. What has happened now is that the fed has basically taken control of what almost everyone can play, watch and listen to. I'm afraid this will happen with video games too, but I'm over 18 so their shouldn't be problem I hope. But, I bet what will piss me off is that some websites or tv programs that show M-rated game clips won't be able to anymore since our children can't see this horrible stuff (unless of course they watch the 30 some different channels on tv that show news).

[Crunky]

I remember back in the day when kids used to dress up as indians and cowboys and shoot each other to death with realistic pistols or arrows. That was un-PC and violent, but somehow society managed to raise "the greatest generation" during those years.

Sometimes I wonder where all this will lead...

[Ajaxab]

It's always interesting to look at this in historical perspective (like Crunky). A few years ago, I read Plato's "Phaedrus". What makes that text relevant to this discussion is that in that dialogue Socrates argues that writing corrupts the young. So basically the same argument about new forms of media causing trouble because of their influence on kids goes back a long, long way.

[cuervo72]

If a world leader ever follows up on his words being backed by NUCLEAR WEAPONS Sid Meier is going to have hell to pay!!!!!

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Arles

Should the people who make and sell "violent video" games be held accountable if someone commits a crime because of playing them?

Of course, first they need to prove that someone commited a crime because they played a certain video game.

[Ragone]

I was playing grand theft auto the other day.. and it occured to me how sweet it would be to go on a rampage around town.. sadly.. i went into an alley and there was no guns laying around to be found.. and 100% of people keep their doors locked when they drive

[mgadfly]

I don't mind if they pass the bill or not. Almost no attorney would ever go after the companies. Too many problems of proving your case (causation almost impossible to prove, defenses about contributing parties like poor parenting). Juries would never go for it either even if it made it to trial (how many of us would actually think that the problem was the video game company rather than the kid being crazy, the parents being crappy, the rap music the kid listened to, the television shows he watched, his Uncle Chester, or whatever).

In the short term it might hurt a gaming company or two that makes violent games (the cost of hiring an attorney), but it would be a drop in the bucket over the long haul (if anyone ever actually bothered to sue under it, plus I imagine common law tort actions cover this already if there was a case to be made).

As for splitting the state, I'm all for it. I live in Eastern Washington and am sick of listening to all these idiots complain about Western Washington with total disregard to all the benefits we receive (let us pay for our own roads for awhile and see how we like it, we'd be the poorest state in the country).

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Ragone

I was playing grand theft auto the other day.. and it occured to me how sweet it would be to go on a rampage around town.. sadly.. i went into an alley and there was no guns laying around to be found.. and 100% of people keep their doors locked when they drive

Not in this town. The first car I tried, I got in, but I got pissed when I realized the guy didn't have my MP3 station preset, so I bailed.

[tucker342]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Not in this town. The first car I tried, I got in, but I got pissed when I realized the guy didn't have my MP3 station preset, so I bailed.

The best is when the army comes with their pussy ass tank to take me down, I always just steal it and go around town blowing up cars by crashing into them!!!!!! IT'S AWESOME!!!

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by mgadfly

As for splitting the state, I'm all for it. I live in Eastern Washington and am sick of listening to all these idiots complain about Western Washington with total disregard to all the benefits we receive (let us pay for our own roads for awhile and see how we like it, we'd be the poorest state in the country).

That was pretty much my reaction - "be careful what you wish for, you might just get it". I loved reading a quote from one of the Eastern Washington legislators in favor of this proposal admitting that they'd probably have to raise taxes in order to be fiscally solvent if this were to actually pass (which it has about zero chance of doing).

[johneh]

There was a case hear locally (Ohio) a couple years back where someone file a suit against Rockstar games because the person who killed his daughter did it because the person played GTA.

STUPIDITY !

[TazFTW]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

That was pretty much my reaction - "be careful what you wish for, you might just get it". I loved reading a quote from one of the Eastern Washington legislators in favor of this proposal admitting that they'd probably have to raise taxes in order to be fiscally solvent if this were to actually pass (which it has about zero chance of doing).

We were talking about this in my econ capstone class and if you're wondering why the politicians in the west don't want this, it's pretty simple. If Eastern Washington became a new state then you've just created another red state for the repubs.

Just look at the results of the governor's race, Gregoire only won Seattle and it's surrounding areas. Everywhere south or east of Seattle voted for Rossi, so I can understand why the people on the east are complaining about not having their voices heard.

Instead of a new state why not just redraw the state lines? I mean it seems eastern washington shares a lot more with Idaho than with the west side. Wasn't there something about merging Spokane and Couer d'Alene?

[Comey]

Arlie,

You do realize this means that whenever I get into some suspicious off-the-field activity, and if I get in trouble for it, I'm suing you, based on what you've put in TPF about a player's demeanor.

Thanks for planting the seeds in my head. Now whenever I'm unsure how I feel, that's what I'm going to do! Suspicious activities!

[mgadfly]

How would we merge Spokane and Couer d'Alene?

I think most of the opposition from the Wet side is because they pretty much know it is a cheap political ploy being used by Eastern Wa lawmakers who also know that it has no chance.

I'm pretty sure the Eastern Wa people want Boise bossing them around only slightly less than they want Seattle telling them what to do. Plus, what would be in it for Idaho?

A question that I have is what has to happen at the federal level for a new state to be made? I've read about the debate for state hood for places like Puerto Rico, Guam, and American Samoa, and the hitch seems to be the federal government. I'm not sure what it takes, but I'm pretty sure neither party wants states dividing up into smaller and smaller areas so that they can have more reps. (Maybe divide L.A. into 5 states? Each would still have more people than Eastern Washington.)

[TazFTW]

From Article IV of the US Constitution

Section. 3. New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

I have no idea about how they wanted to merge Spokane and Couer d'Alene.

I think eastern Washington'ers would like to join Idaho. If Spokane went to Idaho, they would become the biggest city in Idaho (they have a few thousand more people than Boise). So I would say they would have about an equal say to the Idahoans. Of course, there's no reason why Idaho would want this to happen.

[dawgfan]

Well, if you wanted to redraw state lines I think it would make more sense to have the western and eastern parts of Washington and Oregon join up - there's a much more natural divide provided by the Cascades than there is by the Columbia river and an arbitrary parallel.

I'm not sure what the net result would be in terms of adjusting congressional representation numbers and thus electoral votes, but it makes a lot of geographical and philosophical sense. I have my doubts that it would ever happen though.

[KeyserSoze]

Come on people. We live in the XXI century. Nobody has the responsability of anything. The society IS guilty for all our faults.

[bionicgrov03]

So does this bill mean that if I die in a car wreck, my wife will get to sue Ford, Fox (they have the Nascar contract), the city where the wreck happened (they obviously didn't have enough cops), as well as the family of the person that killed me? Boy, I am going to cancel my life insurance right now.

I see no good coming of this.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Arles

House Bill 2178 proposes to hold the makers and sellers of violent video games liable if someone under 17 years old commits a crime, due in any part, to playing the game.

. . .

House Bill 2178 is still in the committee stage in the state House of Representatives.

I don't think that there is much to get in a twist over since it is still in committee stage. Probably just a state lawmaker trying to win some "But What About The Children?! Doesn't Anyone Think Of The Children?!" votes. It would play pretty well, too, I should think: "Bill Dorfman proposed legislation to protect our children from sexually explicit and violent video games."

If it were to pass, I do not think--for most of the reasons articulated in this thread--that it would be a good idea. In addition, according to the bolded part above, if you prove that a crime was committed "due in any part" to GTA, then the maker and seller of GTA is liable. It seems hard to prove that GTA make me shoot my teacher. Much easier to prove that it may have had a little something to do with it--even it just influcenced the choice of weapon or some other such detail.

[Fritz]

does this mean I can finally sue the makers of the LSL line for this recurring rash?

[ice4277]

Originally Posted by Fritz

does this mean I can finally sue the makers of the LSL line for this recurring rash?

The law does not apply when the hole in the center of the CD is used for pleasuring yourself.

[mgadfly]

Originally Posted by bionicgrov03

So does this bill mean that if I die in a car wreck, my wife will get to sue Ford, Fox (they have the Nascar contract), the city where the wreck happened (they obviously didn't have enough cops), as well as the family of the person that killed me? Boy, I am going to cancel my life insurance right now.

I see no good coming of this.

Yes, she could sue them all. I think proving causation would be difficult though.

[mgadfly]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I don't think that there is much to get in a twist over since it is still in committee stage. Probably just a state lawmaker trying to win some "But What About The Children?! Doesn't Anyone Think Of The Children?!" votes. It would play pretty well, too, I should think: "Bill Dorfman proposed legislation to protect our children from sexually explicit and violent video games."

If it were to pass, I do not think--for most of the reasons articulated in this thread--that it would be a good idea. In addition, according to the bolded part above, if you prove that a crime was committed "due in any part" to GTA, then the maker and seller of GTA is liable. It seems hard to prove that GTA make me shoot my teacher. Much easier to prove that it may have had a little something to do with it--even it just influcenced the choice of weapon or some other such detail.

In the damages portion of the trial you'd still have to prove "how liable" the company was.

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by moriarty

This is one of those things where i actually think Michael Moore made a good point (in Bowling for Columbine or something). I mean it's not like the US has a lock on video games. Japan is arguably the video game mecca and their kids play even more games if possible. So how come kids in Japan aren't killing each other, and bopping police w/ baseball bats, shooting up their schools, etc... if video games are the culprit?

Seems like they're trying to fix the wrong problem.

Agreed, though I think he chased a couple of rabbits in Columbine.

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by Arles

Supporters of the bill, like Bill Hanson with the Washington Police and Sheriff's Association, say "kids" are getting the games, and they're becoming desensitized.

"If you sit up and watch this and play these games over and over again... it seems that this is alright to walk up and hit a police officer over the head with a bat," Hanson said.

This is one of those things where i actually think Michael Moore made a good point (in Bowling for Columbine or something). I mean it's not like the US has a lock on video games. Japan is arguably the video game mecca and their kids play even more games if possible. So how come kids in Japan aren't killing each other, and bopping police w/ baseball bats, shooting up their schools, etc... if video games are the culprit?

Seems like they're trying to fix the wrong problem.

[wbatl1]

I don't think you have to worry Arlie. Unless yall are going into a new buisness, all yall are influencing me to do is sit at a computer.

[mckerney]

Why stop at just video games. Shouldn't JD Salinger be held responsible for Mark David Chapman's actions?