OT: A Song of Ice and Fire Series (spoilers inside)

[JAG]

Please George R. R. Martin, finish the fourth book of the series sometime soon.

If you like fantasy-type sci-fi and you haven't read these yet, you are doing yourself a serious disservice. These are three of the best books I've read in a long time.

EDIT:

(4/9/07)

Please George R. R. Martin, finish the fifth book of the series sometime soon.

If you like fantasy-type sci-fi and you haven't read these yet, you are doing yourself a serious disservice. These are four of the best books I've read in a long time.

[SlapBone]

Originally Posted by JAG

Please George R. R. Martin, finish the fourth book of the series sometime soon.

If you like fantasy-type sci-fi and you haven't read these yet, you are doing yourself a serious disservice. These are three of the best books I've read in a long time.

Yes, I think George's books are WAY better than the movies.

[Glengoyne]

I agree, and my wife says the fourth book is due sometime this spring, March maybe.

[Chief Rum]

I saw the spring deadline on Martin's own Web site, but that was months ago. You know how things change as work progresses. It's amazing to me it has taken him this long.

I did find out, interestingly enough, that this fourth book to be written was originally never to be. Apparently Martin was going to take up the stories of the characters a good five years after the end of the third book, which is basically what is in the fifth and/or sixth books now, if I understand it correctly.

His switch to writing out what happens in that time period (and I'm not sure what precipitated that change) is apparently a big reason for the long delay in getting this one out.

CR

[sachmo71]

Martin is the bomb.

[RendeR]

I have to agree, of all the series I've read (and in 35 years thats been a LOT of series) this has to be the most engrossing. I love the style of each chapter being from another characters point of view. Seeing how everyone is thinking in depth, they're hopes their fears, its just awesome. I think my favorite trait overall is the very real feel he gives to the world. as you read you can really feel like you know and understand the world around them, which, when he throws in some of the magi really affect you as the reader all the more.

Cannot wait to have the next one!!

[fantastic flying froggies]

Thank you for the info. To paraphrase the 1st post, "I do like fantasy-type sci-fi and I haven't read these yet, so I am doing myself a serious disservice."

I will hunt them down.

[fantastic flying froggies]

dola - according to Amazon, the 4th book is due out in April.

[thealmighty]

Have them all and love them as well.

[Bad-example]

I have been a fan of Martin since reading his novella Sandkings. It was a real shame that the film rights, which changed hands a couple times I believe, ended up in the hands of the Outer Limits people. They absolutely butchered the original story in what was the debut episode on Showtime.

Thanks for the heads up...looking forward to checking this series out.

[Samdari]

I LOVE these books. They are the only ones that have kept me up late at night to find out what happens in the past 10 years. I read them all in about a month (as compared to the six months it took me to get through Cryptonomicon).

As for "A Feast for Crows" (the upcoming fourth book) Martin's own website (updated jan04) basically says (say it with me, computer game fans) it will be out when it's done. An exact quote - "Various websites and bookshops have announced various publication dates, but until the book is actually finished and delivered, they are all pure guesswork."

Another series that I enjoyed tremendously is Bernard Cornwell's Warlord Series. It is a retelling (with MAJOR changes) of the Arthurian legends, from the point of view of a common spearman. It is similar to the Song of Ice and Fire series in that its heavy on swords and spears, lighter on mysticism and magic.

[sachmo71]

If you like Authurian legend, I would recommend the books of A.A. Attanasio, starting with The Dragon and the Unicorn. Great reads.

[Blade]

I have to chime in here...I love this series! I have read them over and over again...just a great writer.

George Martin does update his web site often, and he says that as soon as he is done the fourth book, he will let everyone know on his web site that it is done. So, as for bookstores predicting release dates, they are all just guesses...as was mentioned earlier, it will be done when it is done.

And please, George, hurry up!

[the_meanstrosity]

Martin is definitely a great read.

Another author fantasy fans may want to check out is Melanie Rawn. She starts off with the Dragon Prince series (Dragon Prince, The Star Scroll, and Sunrunner's Fire) and then follows with the Dragon Star series (Stronghold, The Dragon Token, and Skybowl). Similar to Martin, she introduces you to a ruling family during a time of political turmoil. And like Martin, she has a number of characters and does a great job at following the family through the interesting times.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Best fantasy series I've ever read. Granted I haven't read too many because I usually start and then get quickly turned off. The first three books are amazing. The fat man better finish this fourth book soon. Enough is enough already.

That and I worry about his health. Did anyone see the picture of him holding the baby tiger on his website? He looked terrifying and awful. He must live to finish the series.

I had huge concerns when Stephen King got hit by that van when the Dark Tower series was still pending.

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Best fantasy series I've ever read. Granted I haven't read too many because I usually start and then get quickly turned off. The first three books are amazing. The fat man better finish this fourth book soon. Enough is enough already.

That and I worry about his health. Did anyone see the picture of him holding the baby tiger on his website? He looked terrifying and awful. He must live to finish the series.

I had huge concerns when Stephen King got hit by that van when the Dark Tower series was still pending.

Have you never seen an old nerd before? He's fine, he's just a dork.

[ratpfink]

Originally Posted by fantastic flying froggies

dola - according to Amazon, the 4th book is due out in April.

At one time Amazon said the 4th book was due out in April... 2003. Yeah, I've had it pre-ordered for about a year and can't wait for it to finally be published. Of course when it comes out I'm going to have to go back and re-read the first 3 books but that's not really such a bad thing.

[sachmo71]

Sample chapter from A Feast of Crows up at georgerrmartin.com.


http://www.georgerrmartin.com/chapter.html


YAY!!

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

Sample chapter from A Feast of Crows up at georgerrmartin.com.


http://www.georgerrmartin.com/chapter.html


YAY!!

ENOUGH WITH THE SAMPLES!!!

I WANT THE ENTIRE THING!

It's been FOUR AND A HALF YEARS!

[KeyserSoze]

I love the books. I´ve convince 6 people to read the books and all same the things.

I think this books are spreading in a mouth to ear basis, but they are greats.


PD: Maybe we can buy the stasis bed of Michael Jackson (since in the jail he wont need it) to preserve Martin...

[Galaril]

He is a link to a great site that has a ton of character portraits from the books . Excellent work.

Link to character gallery web site

[Honolulu_Blue]

There is also an RPG (d20 system) based on the books due out this summer. The artwork looks great and though I only RP about once or twice a year nowadays, I'll still pick it up if nothing to act as a sourcebook for the novels themselves.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

There is also an RPG (d20 system) based on the books due out this summer. The artwork looks great and though I only RP about once or twice a year nowadays, I'll still pick it up if nothing to act as a sourcebook for the novels themselves.

Link please.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Link please.

But of course...

http://agot.guardiansorder.com/

Thanks for the link to the gallery. Some great stuff in there!

[terpkristin]

And here I was, hoping this meant that there was more news on it (of course, I'd have heard, so I shoudln't have hoped...I'm on a GRRM yahoo group).

Sigh.
/tk

[Chief Rum]

I can't believe the last book in a continuous series came out when Clinton was president.

Yeah, I agreee, this guy needs to get off his ass and finish the darn book.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I can't believe the last book in a continuous series came out when Clinton was president.

Yeah, I agreee, this guy needs to get off his ass and finish the darn book.

I can top that. My favorite author, Bernard Cornwell, started writing a Civil War series when I was in junior high. The 4th book in the series came out something like 10 years ago, and though he promised to continue, nothing yet.

So the last book in that series came out when Clinton was President...the first time.

[sachmo71]

I like the collected works of Homer, so I beat you all.

[finkenst]

Originally Posted by terpkristin

And here I was, hoping this meant that there was more news on it (of course, I'd have heard, so I shoudln't have hoped...I'm on a GRRM yahoo group).

Sigh.
/tk

goddammit...

and here i htought the 4th was finished!

[Calis]

Good news folks.

It appears that Martin is finished with the book. From reading around it appears he was telling people at a convention in Kansas City that it was done, and it was confirmed on his website.

The bad news?

It's cut, looks like there will be no Jon or Dany in this book, it'll instead focus on the South. More importantly though, it sounds like no Tyrion, which makes me sad. Guess the publisher gave him a page limit, so he had to move large chunks of the book into the NEXT one.

[terpkristin]

Actually, from what I read earlier today (from [email protected]):

Official Post at http;//www.georgerrmartin.com will be Monday.

Info from another board I follow. Posted by George Wife Paris
herself. Confirmation that is.

George announced at the end of his reading that

A FEAST FOR CROWS IS FINISHED!

and no one is more pleased with this announcement than George and
myself. There will be an formal announcement posted to his web site
Monday, and as he said at the reading, as soon as the publishers
have firm pub dates, he'll let you know.

I've read many drafts of the book, and given the complexity of the
greter story he is creating for us, this is not only a good solution
to the problems of manufacturing such a huge book, it gives us
complete arcs for several characters sooner, rather than telling
half the story of more characters over a longer period of time.
There's enough blood and treachery and gorgeous writing in FEAST to
satisfy us for a good long read, I promise.

I hope most readers are happy about this, in the longer view of the
strength of the series. I have been saying for several years that
ASoI&F would be at least 7 books long. Check with me again in a year
and we'll see if that's changed.

More Info:

This is no hoax.

I swear it by ice and fire. I swear that I will never post again
should this prove false. I swear I will never touch wine again, if
it is not true.

George said it is done.

But he had to make a major change. It had grown too large.

Daenerys will not appear. There will be little if any action in the
North. Those chapters will be moved into the next book, which should
come out shortly thereafter.

AFFC will be the size of AGoT.

Expected release date is Sep-Oct, around the same time in US and UK
(maybe slightly earlier in UK but not significantly so)

Edit: Also confirmed by George is the fact that there will be 7
books.

GRRM explained it as follows.

The book was still incomplete and it was 80 (book) pages longer than
aSoS. He thought it would take an extra 100 manuscript pages to
finish it fully. His publishers were really anxious to get it
published this fall so he was left with 3 choices.

1) Find a quick way to wrap up the remaining chapters and try to
sweat the stuff he has already done to reduce the size of the book.
Even though it was unfinished, it was already too big for them.

2) Cut the book in half by timeline, publishing the first half this
fall.

3) Cut the book in half by POV.

The first option was a bad one in my opinion. You don't want the
author to cut chapters, or characters because of the publishers.
GRRM didn't like that either.

The second one has advantages in that it updates us with all the
POVs but OTOH it leaves the stories all unfinished. Everything just
suddenly ends.

Option 3 means a tighter book. We get 7 or 8 POVs like aGoT, rather
than 15. We don't get lost by the huge number of plotlines.

Spoilers GRRM said Dany and the Wall is excluded. That removes Dany
and probably Tyrion plus the Wall which presumably means Jon and
Davos. Probably Sam too although he may be going south. This leaves
the Dorne chapters, Jaime, Cersei, Sansa in aFfC. Arya is hard to
say. Similarly the Iron Islands. The latter seems more like the
North to me. But I haven't read them. And who knows where the
mystery POV falls into. End Spoilers

So aFfC gets published this fall. In October or September. Its
likely that the books will be published in the US and the UK at the
same time. Although the UK may get a couple of weeks headstart.

There will be no Daenerys chapters. There will be none of the
chapters up North. The chapters in the South are done and in the
hands of the publishers - George expects to announce a specific fall
publication date. That means he can spend a little more time
cleaning up the events in the North and present a coherent tale with
a beginning and an end.

The next book will still be called aDwD. (Dany will be in it after
all). This is where things get oblique again. Even though he was 100
pages away from finishing aFfC originally, he says he has 600 of an
expected 1100 pages yet to write in aDwD. So clearly he feels he is
putting stuff into it that he originally earmarked for the old
version of aDwD.

He expects some of his fans to be upset when their favorite
characters don't appear. But they can take comfort in the fact that
the fifth book is now 60% or more done. And they will have the
fourth in the fall.

This might refer to something he mentioned earlier in May about
finding a way to deal with some characters been too young and he
wants to skip ahead, while others are too active. He will just drop
them.

He has offically announced that the book will take 7 books. I think
aDwD will take 1 to 2 years to come out after aFfC. Getting aFfC
will relieve a lot of pressure and make things easier to progress.

Hurrah!!

/tk

[Calis]

Hate the fact there's no Tyrion and John though, my two favorite characters. I dig the wall stuff.

Oh well, means I'll REALLY enjoy the next book.

[bronconick]

Martin, at least for myself, has had the unfortunate situation of following after Robert Jordan's fall from grace. After that series, which I unfortunately became addicted to back in the Bush I administration, has dragged out, and frankly, lost much of the quality it originally had, I'm now waiting for that one to just finish, and I swore off spending money on any other fantasy series that isn't finished. (I have ASOIAF because I've asked for the books as gifts over the years) I've read the first two, liked them, but haven't gone more then 50 pages into book 3 yet simply because I'm sick and damn tired of authors taking 2-3 years to put something out.

And now Martin wrote so much he has to split the same amount of time into two books? Suckers. He's following the same path RJ did. (See books 5-10 for examples)

This is going to turn into another 12 book 20 year project. Maybe it's just the curse of making such a deep world, that if your name isn't Tolkien, you get sucked into more and more details as things slow to a crawl, both in publication and in plot movement.

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by Calis

Hate the fact there's no Tyrion and John though, my two favorite characters. I dig the wall stuff.

Oh well, means I'll REALLY enjoy the next book.

I'm disappointed in that as well, but I'm happy we're finally getting another book. I hate "unfinished" series as much as bronconick, but this series is so much better than just about any fantasy series I've ever read that there is nothing to do but wait.

[sabotai]

Count me as someone who doesn't like unfinished series. But I'm kind of late to the party when it comes to reading fantasy (been mostly a sci-fi and historic epic reader) so I have plenty of finished series to keep me busy until the unfinished ones are completed.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by bronconick

Martin, at least for myself, has had the unfortunate situation of following after Robert Jordan's fall from grace. After that series, which I unfortunately became addicted to back in the Bush I administration, has dragged out, and frankly, lost much of the quality it originally had, I'm now waiting for that one to just finish, and I swore off spending money on any other fantasy series that isn't finished. (I have ASOIAF because I've asked for the books as gifts over the years) I've read the first two, liked them, but haven't gone more then 50 pages into book 3 yet simply because I'm sick and damn tired of authors taking 2-3 years to put something out.

And now Martin wrote so much he has to split the same amount of time into two books? Suckers. He's following the same path RJ did. (See books 5-10 for examples)

This is going to turn into another 12 book 20 year project. Maybe it's just the curse of making such a deep world, that if your name isn't Tolkien, you get sucked into more and more details as things slow to a crawl, both in publication and in plot movement.

I never read any Robert Jordan or any other modern fantasy series. Actually the last pure fantasy series I read were the Dragon Lance books. I pretty much stopped after the first six, which I think told the entire story if I recall.

I guess I had a similar experience with Stephen King's "Dark Tower" series, but that's all wrapped up now.

I will patiently wait for Martin to finish his books. His world is incredibly deep and he's in a bit of bind after "A Storm of Swords." The war in Westeros is pretty much done and many of his main characters are scattered to the four corners of the earth (Bran, Arya, Tyrion, etc.) and will have little or no connection with many of the other plotlines going forward.

I will hold off bitching about things until I read it.

[Tigercat]

I'm not sure I will continue the series if his next book is not going into the two storylines left that are most interesting to me. Although it may be interesting to get some Dornish history and stories and seeing stories around a certain female character back from beyond the grave at the end of the last book. Still, I think it might be better to cut my losses. Its tough to get involved in characters in such a brutal series with long waits for the next book, and if the next book is going to ignore the most interesting characters all together....

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by bronconick

This is going to turn into another 12 book 20 year project. Maybe it's just the curse of making such a deep world, that if your name isn't Tolkien, you get sucked into more and more details as things slow to a crawl, both in publication and in plot movement.

And that's the main problem isn't it? When creating such a deep world, you have to spend far far far more time in the later novels making sure you didn't contradict some nuance in the previous ones. With all the internet fanboys, looking to nitpick the novel to death, one slip up may haunt you.

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

And that's the main problem isn't it? When creating such a deep world, you have to spend far far far more time in the later novels making sure you didn't contradict some nuance in the previous ones. With all the internet fanboys, looking to nitpick the novel to death, one slip up may haunt you.

This, of course, made me think of the Xena episode of the Simpsons.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by bronconick

This is going to turn into another 12 book 20 year project. Maybe it's just the curse of making such a deep world, that if your name isn't Tolkien, you get sucked into more and more details as things slow to a crawl, both in publication and in plot movement.

I think the last thing in the world you could accuse GRRM of is lacking in plot development. Every book has TONS of story to it and a lot of changes. Matter of fact, most of the characters you liked in the first book are probably dead by the time the 4th one will be out.

[Honolulu_Blue]

It's been confirmed. Good scoop, Terp!

From GRRM's website:

No, I haven't finished writing everything I wanted to include in A FEAST FOR CROWS. I have wrapped up a whole bunch of characters and storylines since the last update in January, but "a whole bunch" does not equate to "all."

And I was facing another problem as well: the sheer size of the book.

All of the books in this series have been big, mind you. A GAME OF THRONES weighed in at 1088 pages in manuscript, not counting the appendices. A CLASH OF KINGS was even longer at 1184 pages, not counting the appendices. And A STORM OF SWORDS measured a gargantuan 1521 pages in manuscript, not counting the (etc).

Any publisher will tell you that a book as big as A STORM OF SWORDS is a production nightmare, and STORM did indeed cause problems for many of my publishers around the world. In some languages it was divided into two, three, or even four volumes. Bantam published STORM in a single volume in the United States, but not without difficulty. Pretty much everyone agreed that it would be a really good thing if the fourth volume in the series came in somewhat shorter than STORM, so I set out with the idea of delivering a FEAST closer in length to A CLASH OF KINGS.

Alas for good intentions. In hindsight, I should have known better. The story makes its own demands, as Tolkien once said, and my story kept demanding to get bigger and more complicated.

I passed A CLASH OF KINGS last year, and still had plenty more to write. By January, I had more than 1300 pages, and still had storylines unfinished. About three weeks ago I hit 1527 pages of final draft, surpassing A STORM OF SWORDS... but I also had another hundred or so pages of roughs and incomplete chapters, as well as other chapters sketched out but entirely unwritten. That was when I realized that the light I'd seen at the end of the tunnel was actually the headlight of an onrushing locomotive.

And that's why my publishers and I, after much discussion and weighing of alternatives, have decided to split the narrative into two books (printing in microtype on onion skin paper and giving each reader a magnifying glass was not considered feasible, and I was reluctant to make the sort of deep cuts that would have been necessary to get the book down to a more publishable length, which I felt would have compromised the story).

The first plan was simply to lop the text in half. In that scenario, I would finish the last few chapters in as short a length (and time) as possible. That would have produced a story of maybe 1650 to 1700 pages in manuscript, which we would simply have broken into two chunks of roughly equal length and published as A FEAST FOR CROWS, Part One and A FEAST FOR CROWS, Part Two.

We decided not to do that. It was my feeling -- and I pushed hard for this, so if you don't like the solution, blame me, not my publishers -- that we were better off telling all the story for half the characters, rather than half the story for all the characters. Cutting the novel in half would have produced two half-novels; our approach will produce two novels taking place simultaneously, but set hundreds or even thousands of miles apart, and involving different casts of characters (with some overlap).

The division has been done, and it think it works quite well. The upshot is, A FEAST FOR CROWS is now moving into production. It is still a long book, but not too long; about the same size as A GAME OF THRONES. The focus in FEAST will be on Westeros, King's Landing, the riverlands, Dorne, and the Iron Islands. More than that I won't say.

Meanwhile, all the characters and stories removed from FEAST are moving right into A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, which will focus on events in the east and north. All the chapters I have not yet finished and/or begun are moving into DANCE. I think this is very good, if truth be told, since it will give me the room to complete those arcs as I had originally intended, rather than trying to tie them up quickly in a chapter or two so I could deliver the massively late Big FEAST.

So there it is. I know some of you may be disappointed, especially when you buy A FEAST FOR CROWS and discover that your favorite character does not appear, but given the realities I think this was the best solution... and the more I look at it, the more convinced I am that these two parallel novels, when taken together, will actually tell the story better than one big book.

And if there are those who don't agree, and still want their Big FEAST with all the trimmings set out on one huge table... well, there's an easy fix. Get both books, razor the pages out with an Exacto knife, interleave the chapters as you think best, and bring the towering stack of text that results to your favorite bookbinder... and presto, chango the Big FEAST will live again.

As for me, I am getting back to work. There's good news on that front too -- A DANCE WITH DRAGONS is half-done!!!

(And before anyone asks, yes indeed, this development means that Parris was right all along. It will now probably require seven books to complete the story).

—George R.R. Martin, May 29, 2005

[Peregrine]

Matter of fact, most of the characters you liked in the first book are probably dead by the time the 4th one will be out.

Yeah, but from old age, that's the problem!

[Blade]

According to the George R. R. Martin web site, the next book should be in stores on November 8!

[sachmo71]

After A Feast of Crows?

[Coffee Warlord]

No Jon, no Dany, no Bran.

Yeesh.

[Mustang]

He always just strikes me as a.. how shall I say.. asshole. Kinda like Tom Clancy...

[Blade]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

After A Feast of Crows?

That is for A Feast of Crows...

[Bee]

Originally Posted by Blade

That is for A Feast of Crows...

what happened to the end of July?

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

No Jon, no Dany, no Bran.

Yeesh.

I could be entertained by a book about Lannisters. And the others.


And I also have to ask, "What happened to the end of July?"

[Blade]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

And I also have to ask, "What happened to the end of July?"

No idea, but according to his web site, that is what Bantum Spectra has informed him as for when the Hardcover will be released.