Werewolf XCVI: The Dark One and The Order of Righteousness (GAME OVER EVIL WINS)

[Telle]

As of post #1096:

4 - Abe lynch - Autumn (905), path (1042), MartinD (1045), USFLTechmo (1074)
2 - Autum lynch - SnDvls (1050), Lathum (1077)
6 - Abe jail - RendeR (1056), Chief Rum (1060), Passacaglia (1062), The Jackal (1063), Lerriuqs (1065), KWhit (1095)
1 - DaddyTorgo jail - Autumn (1087)

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

But did Pass being in jail really tell us he was Arbito?

He told clap he was, then clap released him, and that forced him to rr, so I'd say yeah, it did.

[Autumn]

Abe, FWIW, if you had made a few comments last night or this morning to clear up your role before you read through the whole thread you'd probably be in a better spot.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Telle

How do we know that Abe won't be able to let himself back out of jail? Other than him claiming he can't? We could end up wasting two days jailing him then lynching him.

Most players in jail don;t have roles. That's the rules.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Exactly. I continue to argue that Pass's jailing had NOTHING to do with having a trusted King. I continue to argue we should be lynching.

I don't follow what you're saying here.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Telle

As of post #1096:

4 - Abe lynch - Autumn (905), path (1042), MartinD (1045), USFLTechmo (1074)
2 - Autum lynch - SnDvls (1050), Lathum (1077)
6 - Abe jail - RendeR (1056), Chief Rum (1060), Passacaglia (1062), The Jackal (1063), Lerriuqs (1065), KWhit (1095)
1 - DaddyTorgo jail - Autumn (1087)

That should have me off Abe now, I hope.

[Telle]

Originally Posted by Autumn

That should have me off Abe now, I hope.

Oh yeah.. good catch. Thanks.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I don't follow what you're saying here.

I think jailing people is a losing strategy. I think we should lynch.

People have stated that by jailing pass we've gotten him as a mostly cleared villager. I argue that jailing pass did not lead to him being a mostly cleared villager. Instead Pass successfully role claiming did.

I therefore continue to think we should lynch.

Lynch Abe

[Abe Sargent]

I would like ot point out something in self defens.e The main reason most of you lighted on claphamsa is becuase he said the statement that he was told to come by. That has been explained. What else is left? claphamsa being a little off? That's normal. There are no other smoking guns or unusual things.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Abe, FWIW, if you had made a few comments last night or this morning to clear up your role before you read through the whole thread you'd probably be in a better spot.

Then that's really unfortunate of you. I took over a role because it was asked of me. I had a really tough work schedule that night and a busy day the next day. That's not my fault.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I think jailing people is a losing strategy. I think we should lynch.

People have stated that by jailing pass we've gotten him as a mostly cleared villager. I argue that jailing pass did not lead to him being a mostly cleared villager. Instead Pass successfully role claiming did.

I therefore continue to think we should lynch.

Lynch Abe

Okay, but why me. You still haven;t told why me. Okay, I get it, clap was a bit erratic, but the only real thing you had against him was a statement that has been cleared by another. Why me now? I'd argue there are a lot more reasons to trust me than a random UTR player right now.


Would a wolf have made a play to release someone who claimed to be Arbitro while the Dark One was still alive? Seriously? I doubt it. Sure, you can spin it that way, but it's a lot less chance than the chance that Random McRandom is a baddie.

[Abe Sargent]

Vote Daddy Torgo jail


Self defense purely.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

Then that's really unfortunate of you. I took over a role because it was asked of me. I had a really tough work schedule that night and a busy day the next day. That's not my fault.

I'm not the one voting for you, Abe. I'm just pointing out that almost 24 hours of silence on the issue has let the suspicion continue.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I think jailing people is a losing strategy. I think we should lynch.

People have stated that by jailing pass we've gotten him as a mostly cleared villager. I argue that jailing pass did not lead to him being a mostly cleared villager. Instead Pass successfully role claiming did.

I therefore continue to think we should lynch.

Lynch Abe

Uh, okay...

At this point we mostly believe that he's a villager. So for sake of argument, let's roll with that for a second.

My argument has is that no matter how we found out that he's a villager, the point is that he's a living villager right now because we jailed him. If we would have lynched him, we'd be down a villager and we wouldn't have a somewhat trusted player as King right now.

No matter how it came about, the jailing strategy worked in this case because it gave us a chance to re-do the bad vote we made against Pass.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

Okay, but why me. You still haven;t told why me. Okay, I get it, clap was a bit erratic, but the only real thing you had against him was a statement that has been cleared by another. Why me now? I'd argue there are a lot more reasons to trust me than a random UTR player right now.


Would a wolf have made a play to release someone who claimed to be Arbitro while the Dark One was still alive? Seriously? I doubt it. Sure, you can spin it that way, but it's a lot less chance than the chance that Random McRandom is a baddie.

I personally am voting for you because Tyrith was pretty strongly suggesting that we move our votes off of you (clap) last night.

[Autumn]

I agree with Abe. Taking out Clap's erratic play there's nothing to vote for Abe on but a conspiracy theory. And God knows conspiracy theories are often true in WW, but I think he's right that there's more positive evidence for him than for any of the rest of us.

But that's what I've been saying and it has swayed anyone. I think people are eager to clutch onto something to vote with.

[DaddyTorgo]

if Barkeep's so eager to lynch, maybe we should be lynching him?

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I personally am voting for you because Tyrith was pretty strongly suggesting that we move our votes off of you (clap) last night.

Which wolves regularly do to curry favor, by showing they are right by helping villagers. I've done it many times, support a doomed villager, then pull the Cassandra card out.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I agree with Abe. Taking out Clap's erratic play there's nothing to vote for Abe on but a conspiracy theory. And God knows conspiracy theories are often true in WW, but I think he's right that there's more positive evidence for him than for any of the rest of us.

But that's what I've been saying and it has swayed anyone. I think people are eager to clutch onto something to vote with.

Well, yeah. If you have to vote for someone, you want to find a reason to vote for someone.

But I'm interested in why you think there's positive evidence for him? What is the positive evidence?

[Passacaglia]

I'm interested in looking at other candidates. SD and Lathum, can you give me a run-down an Autumn?

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

Which wolves regularly do to curry favor, by showing they are right by helping villagers. I've done it many times, support a doomed villager, then pull the Cassandra card out.

Yeah, but they also try to save one of their own if they think they can get away with it. Tyrith had no suspicion on him, so he didn't have to immediately worry about being outed and dragging clap down with him. It was a surprise to us all that Tyrith was duked.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

if Barkeep's so eager to lynch, maybe we should be lynching him?

A. You won't get a wolf
B. I argue I was a pretty good likely scan early on because of my pro-Schmidty stance and as such. If so I'd come up villager. Until you just now no one has suggested lynching me (just jailing). Don't think that would be the case if I'd scanned wolf.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by KWhit

Well, yeah. If you have to vote for someone, you want to find a reason to vote for someone.

But I'm interested in why you think there's positive evidence for him? What is the positive evidence?

Well he let a presumed villager out of jail, one who had the power to kill the Dark One. Perhaps, perhaps he did it for nefarious sly purposes, but the fact is he did something that greatly helped the village. That's more than the rest of us can say at this point.

[Autumn]

Or ID the DO I guess it was, sorry.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by KWhit

Well, yeah. If you have to vote for someone, you want to find a reason to vote for someone.

But I'm interested in why you think there's positive evidence for him? What is the positive evidence?

I think sometimes we mistake emotional players for bad players. I think many of us have been guilty at one time or another for secretly calling an emotional WW player like claphamsa or Poli or Schmidity stupid secretly for doing or saying soemthing off. For taking something personally. Etc.

claphamsa is not bad player, he;'s not a stupid player, he's just sometimes off and emotional. That's all. He was confronted with a one time use role and a guy who claimed a really good role for the village, so he used it. Letting out a guy who claimed to have a powerful role for the village which would severely hurt your own team is not a smart wolf play. I don;t think claphamsa is a dumb player, I think he's an emotional one. We should nbot confuse the two.

The only good reason to let out a guy who suggested he had a powerful village role is because you are a villager. Otherwise you are rolling dice waaaay too much and that's probably a bad call. Just because clap can be a little touchy at times doesn;t mean he'd amke a bad call like that.

That is evidence that claphamsa was good, and since I'm thrust into the role, I've seen the info he had available to him. I can understand why he made the call he did.

Time to move on, time to find another candidate, because that IS good information about me.

[Telle]

vote DaddyTorgo jail

I'm not that fond of Abe as a candidate right now.. and I still prefer jailing over lynching. I don't have anything on DT.. but he's the only one up for jailing that's not Abe.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Well he let a presumed villager out of jail, one who had the power to kill the Dark One. Perhaps, perhaps he did it for nefarious sly purposes, but the fact is he did something that greatly helped the village. That's more than the rest of us can say at this point.

I don't think letting a villager out of jail is a good thing for the village, actually, since it keeps us from getting a King-scan on him and just adds suspicion on the guy who was broken out. And it could have worked. Tyrith was pushing for Schmidty to duke the vote onto Pass last night and if clap WAS a wolf, it makes even more sense to break out a villager to try to cause confusion and get Pass lynched instead of throwing clap in jail.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I don't think letting a villager out of jail is a good thing for the village, actually, since it keeps us from getting a King-scan on him and just adds suspicion on the guy who was broken out. And it could have worked. Tyrith was pushing for Schmidty to duke the vote onto Pass last night and if clap WAS a wolf, it makes even more sense to break out a villager to try to cause confusion and get Pass lynched instead of throwing clap in jail.

I understand your point but you're riding it pretty hard. Are you really trying to say that having a roled villager who could ID the DO one in the game is not a good play for the village?

Yes, I get it, it could have been a wolf play, we've been sayign that all along, but you're seeming really obstinate about not being willing to reocgnize that at least at first level it's clearly a villager move.

[Abe Sargent]

I would like to point out that I have more posts already than people who have been in the game since the very beginning

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

I think sometimes we mistake emotional players for bad players. I think many of us have been guilty at one time or another for secretly calling an emotional WW player like claphamsa or Poli or Schmidity stupid secretly for doing or saying soemthing off. For taking something personally. Etc.

claphamsa is not bad player, he;'s not a stupid player, he's just sometimes off and emotional. That's all. He was confronted with a one time use role and a guy who claimed a really good role for the village, so he used it. Letting out a guy who claimed to have a powerful role for the village which would severely hurt your own team is not a smart wolf play. I don;t think claphamsa is a dumb player, I think he's an emotional one. We should nbot confuse the two.

The only good reason to let out a guy who suggested he had a powerful village role is because you are a villager. Otherwise you are rolling dice waaaay too much and that's probably a bad call. Just because clap can be a little touchy at times doesn;t mean he'd amke a bad call like that.

That is evidence that claphamsa was good, and since I'm thrust into the role, I've seen the info he had available to him. I can understand why he made the call he did.

Time to move on, time to find another candidate, because that IS good information about me.

Maybe so.

Maybe I'm thinking on second level when the right answer is the first level thinking. But that's why I'm for jailing you so we can see in a few days if we're right about you or not and if wrong, let you back into the game with open arms and kiss and hug and make up.

[Abe Sargent]

Yay for make ups! And make outs!

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I understand your point but you're riding it pretty hard. Are you really trying to say that having a roled villager who could ID the DO one in the game is not a good play for the village?

Yes, I get it, it could have been a wolf play, we've been sayign that all along, but you're seeming really obstinate about not being willing to reocgnize that at least at first level it's clearly a villager move.

Nah, I'm not riding anything hard, I'm just stating why I am voting the way I am. And I'm sitting outside smoking a cigar and having a beer and have nothing else to do so I'm just yapping away about it.

And honestly, I have no other good candidates at this point.

[Abe Sargent]

I'm going to take a shower, and then maybe play some FOF2k1 so I'll be away for a bit. Just in case, here is the only person i found suspect when I read through all of the posts in a row just now.

RendeR. He wanted the see to hint at who he/she cleared, and that seemed wolfish to me, since a wolf will just as easily read hints like that as the village would.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

Yay for make ups! And make outs!

Now wait a second, bub.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

I'm going to take a shower, and then maybe play some FOF2k1 so I'll be away for a bit. Just in case, here is the only person i found suspect when I read through all of the posts in a row just now.

RendeR. He wanted the see to hint at who he/she cleared, and that seemed wolfish to me, since a wolf will just as easily read hints like that as the village would.

Yep. I pointed the same thing out about him when I read that.

[RendeR]

POst whore.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I'm interested in looking at other candidates. SD and Lathum, can you give me a run-down an Autumn?

For me he has really been all over the place, he has thrown alot of names out there and I wanted to bring another candidate into the mix for a lynch, I am with BK, I think we need to lynch at this point.

[RendeR]

damn my slow typing

that was aimed at the "more posts that you" thing earlier.

[Autumn]

Lathum, other than that one streak where I was looking for a candidate and mentioned four different names, when was i all over the place?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Well he let a presumed villager out of jail, one who had the power to kill the Dark One. Perhaps, perhaps he did it for nefarious sly purposes, but the fact is he did something that greatly helped the village. That's more than the rest of us can say at this point.

Here is the thing though, I don't buy the defense that Clap/ Abe as a wolf wouldn't less Pass out of jail. Once they discover his role they are free to let him out and now know the DO can't attack him, so really, they have nothing to lose by letting him out.

[RendeR]

Hey now, why the hell am I suddenly a target =)

I did suggest that perhaps there was a way to jail/scan/get info out. I honestly don't know how many of us could do that successfully. My one attempt failed miserably. I certainly do not suggest the seer come out or do anything even closely resembling blatant.

We're in a GREAT position right now. In fact I tihnk its far more important NOW with the shenanigans that went on, to keep jailing people and not killing them. We start lynching willy-nilly and suddenly we can no longer AFFORD to use the jail because our numbers will be wittled away.

Think about that...pushing for lynching is a HUGE benefit to the wolves because it almost eliminates our ability to use a very powerful mechanic to our advantage.

I just don't get the lynching position at this point. living villagers, even in jail are better than dead ones.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I'm interested in looking at other candidates. SD and Lathum, can you give me a run-down an Autumn?

sure give me a sec to compile what pinged me earlier

[RendeR]

whats our current vote count?

[path12]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Taking out Clap's erratic play there's nothing to vote for Abe on but a conspiracy theory.

That's just plainly not the truth. You are becoming more and more suspicious to me.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Lathum

For me he has really been all over the place, he has thrown alot of names out there and I wanted to bring another candidate into the mix for a lynch, I am with BK, I think we need to lynch at this point.

Because of the difficulty in getting a lynch I will support the most viable lynch candidate. I am pro lynch and somewhat agnostic on who we do it to.

[RendeR]

Whats with the blood lust BK?

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by path12

That's just plainly not the truth. You are becoming more and more suspicious to me.

Thanks for taking the quote out of context.

The "conspiracy theory" is that Clap/Abe let out a roled villager in order to gain trust. As I said, but you did not quote, conspiracy theories are often true in this game. But it is *at least as likely* that he did it to help the village.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Hey now, why the hell am I suddenly a target =)

I did suggest that perhaps there was a way to jail/scan/get info out. I honestly don't know how many of us could do that successfully. My one attempt failed miserably. I certainly do not suggest the seer come out or do anything even closely resembling blatant.

We're in a GREAT position right now. In fact I tihnk its far more important NOW with the shenanigans that went on, to keep jailing people and not killing them. We start lynching willy-nilly and suddenly we can no longer AFFORD to use the jail because our numbers will be wittled away.

Think about that...pushing for lynching is a HUGE benefit to the wolves because it almost eliminates our ability to use a very powerful mechanic to our advantage.

I just don't get the lynching position at this point. living villagers, even in jail are better than dead ones.

I absolutely agree that with a trusted King right now we should be jailing over lynching, I'd just like to jail you instead of me, that's all I'm saying...

[path12]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Because of the difficulty in getting a lynch I will support the most viable lynch candidate. I am pro lynch and somewhat agnostic on who we do it to.

I'm willing to do this also.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Whats with the blood lust BK?

It has to do with the fact that I think the math reflects poorly on jailing people.