SEO - How to debunk the con artists?

[JonInMiddleGA]

I know we've got a number of tech savvy posters here, some in the industry & some others who have worked with aspects of the industry in their own professions. I'm looking for thoughts/advice/comments from anybody who has something that might be helpful.

Here's the situation boiled down as best I can:
-- New web design company starts poaching existing business from another web design firm, based on the premise of being "specialists in search engine optimization".
-- Client is about as low on the understanding technology food chain as humanly possible
-- Both the existing design group & myself (asked for thoughts & input on the subject) believe the large majority of "SEO specialists" are by & large con artists. Not all of them mind you, just a great deal of them. The phrase often seems to come from people who actually make their living churning domains.
-- We both believe that, while optimizing your chances to appear in search results is important, it isn't the end all & be all of most businesses. Basically that there's a reasonable amount of effort that should be expended but that it shouldn't become an overriding concern since realistically there's only so much that can be done (as the formulas for results are increasingly concealed, etc).
-- And that ultimately, short of simply outbidding everyone for certain Google AdWords, there's very little that can be truly guaranteed in terms of results.

Ultimately, we're probably looking for a good presentation that removes a lot of the hype and smoke & mirrors from the claims of the interloper and gives the client realistic information to base their decisions upon.

Anybody seen this done already? Had to do it themselves? Have any obvious holes that should be addressed that I haven't mentioned? Think I'm out in left field & that the world of SEO specialists should be nominated for sainthood?

Feedback is appreciated.

[Maple Leafs]

I pretty much have to tell this to half the people I work with every second day.

(On the other days, I have to tell the other half what SEO is and why it's important.)

[Maple Leafs]

Here's how I would explain it to a non-tech savvy client:

- SEO is important and should be part of any decent web strategy

- There are many things that a business can do to improve its rankings. Some are very easy, some involve complete redesigns.

- "Black hat" SEOs (who use unapproved tactics) can result in your site being blacklisted from the search engines permanently. In some cases, this could literally mean the end of your business.

- Google and other search engines keep their algorithms top secret, and change them frequently. This means that nobody knows exactly what works. If anybody ever tells you they can guarantee a specific result, you should run away as fast as you can because they're scamming you.

[MacroGuru]

Exactly, which is why I am constantly at SEOchat.com and always keeping an eye on changes with Google, live.com and Yahoo.

And to me it also deals with your target audience even more. For example, I know on our makeup site, the bulk of our customers use Yahoo and MSN, so I really didn't focus on google type strategies but Yahoo and MSN centric strategies. Our site on our keywords are constantly in the top 10, and a lot of the time they are listed there twice.

There is not an exact science to it, but there are tools out there that can make it close. But rankings can not and should not be guaranteed.

[lordscarlet]

The redesign I did at the end of last year has increased my traffic about 10-20x (about 10-20 visits/day to 300-600/day). It's very important, but I know very little about SEO. I think while what you say is true about interlopers, any firm that does not have an SEO strategy should also throw up a red flag.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Thanks all so far, I figured there'd be some insight on this to be found here.

Feel free to keep 'em coming

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

-- And that ultimately, short of simply outbidding everyone for certain Google AdWords, there's very little that can be truly guaranteed in terms of results.

Agree with everything said in this thread thus far except this. While there are certainly no guarantees, there are plenty of things you can do to improve SEO unrelated to Google AdWords. Our site ranks No. 3 on Google behind our national association and another local association and I've never spent a dime on AdWords or any online search advertising. We used to be No. 1 until Google 's last major alogorithm change. Sounds like I need to check out SEOchat.com.

But this argument can be in your favor -- SEO doesn't have to cost much if the site is designed well and you take the right steps.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I had forgotten all about this particular rant, definitely time to update it.

New rant: Clients trying to sell widgets who forget that SEO is a means to an end, not an end unto itself for anyone except the people selling them SEO services.

And while I'm getting the same hourly rate to find, highlight, and occasionally fix those issues and try to get things back into balance, it's damned frustrating work when the ship is too large (and has waaaay too many captains) to turn hardly at all much less in a timely manner.

Watching a client spend 6 figures on website development and 6 figures annually on outside SEO (while I'm lucky to get into 5 figures a year with them anymore) only to discover that no one has actually ever bothered to track even the most basic data for website traffic for half their websites. Like I said I get paid the same whether it works, is borked, or gets fixed, but it's awfully frustrating to work on stuff that you know isn't going to get much more than marginally better. And why in the hell is the lowest paid guy in the whole process the only one who even noticed this was the case?

/rant ... for now at least

[Coffee Warlord]

God, I never saw this rant the first time it came around. But I cannot count the number of hours I wasted explaining to both my CEO and our clients that SEO wasn't some magic bullet.

And then sitting in meetings with clients when we're going over a website plan, talking about making sure the new site is decent for search engines (I actually got pretty good at my standard-issue rundown of the SEO buzzword)...which is promptly followed by the design team making insane layouts that include absolutely zero text.

And then those designers getting pissed at me when I took their design and utterly gutted it to *gasp* include actual text content.

And then me finding out someone already sent those designs to the client without my approval (or, to be more accurate, without my "yeah, see all this? not gonna work")

And then the clients getting pissed off that their neat looking comps that they approved were going to be nothing like what the website would really look like.

Have I mentioned lately I'm glad I'm out of advertising?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

God, I never saw this rant the first time it came around. But I cannot count the number of hours I wasted explaining to both my CEO and our clients that SEO wasn't some magic bullet.

It's probably notable too that there's almost two years between the first rant in this thread and my latest one. Notice how things not only aren't really any better but are probably worse when you consider the money they've spent on the niche but yet still don't have anyone on staff who understands it even enough to monitor it ?

Thank goodness for that I guess, since that's kind of part of what they're now willing to pay me to do.

Have I mentioned lately I'm glad I'm out of advertising?

Apparently I'm almost out of advertising too, I'm now a combination social media explainer + translator of tech to non-techies + translator of basic marketing to techies + Designated Finder of Broken Shit and/or Shit That Don't Work Worth a Damn

[Greyroofoo]

Can you look up the SEO companies in the Better Business Bereau?

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

It's probably notable too that there's almost two years between the first rant in this thread and my latest one. Notice how things not only aren't really any better but are probably worse when you consider the money they've spent on the niche but yet still don't have anyone on staff who understands it even enough to monitor it ?

Sometimes I wonder if there are particular industries that are, on average, just getting stupider, not smarter. I'm almost positive, based on experience, that this is true for specific companies (often as a result of growth or, even more, growth and then stagnation).

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

It's probably notable too that there's almost two years between the first rant in this thread and my latest one. Notice how things not only aren't really any better but are probably worse when you consider the money they've spent on the niche but yet still don't have anyone on staff who understands it even enough to monitor it ?

It's a flavor of the month "new media" buzzword that has been milked beyond belief. It's got some serious staying power, and I *still* can't believe agencies are hiring people as "SEO Specialists" as a fulltime position.

Apparently I'm almost out of advertising too, I'm now a combination social media explainer + translator of tech to non-techies + translator of basic marketing to techies + Designated Finder of Broken Shit and/or Shit That Don't Work Worth a Damn

Heh, by that definition I was barely in advertising myself. My last job at an agency consisted of about 5% programming, 30% writing proposals, 20% tech translator to clients/staff, 25% shattering the hopes and dreams of the creative department, and 20% tech support/screaming on the phone at Konica/Minolta support to send someone out to fix the god damned printers (again).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Sometimes I wonder if there are particular industries that are, on average, just getting stupider, not smarter. I'm almost positive, based on experience, that this is true for specific companies (often as a result of growth or, even more, growth and then stagnation).

Sadly, I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe it's happening narrowly. They all seem to be dumbing down further & further at about equal rates, at least across the variety of the ones I've worked with/for.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

It's a flavor of the month "new media" buzzword that has been milked beyond belief. It's got some serious staying power, and I *still* can't believe agencies are hiring people as "SEO Specialists" as a fulltime position.

Hell, I'm still amazed that there are apparently a legion of entire companies who do nothing but.

Funny thing is that, in spite of my client working with a specialty firm that actually does seem to make sense far more than the industry average, two years later they actually generate no more (and in some cases less) of their traffic from SE's than they did before trying to do anything specific about it.

Talk about getting away from basic advertising principles, when tricking SE's starts dictating content instead of , you know, telling the story of your product & actually trying to sell product ... just damn, that's so fucked up it boggles my brain.

[Coffee Warlord]

I honestly think it's a horrid symptom of the Old Guard of advertising just not understanding the direction the market is going. And it's very, very widespread.

I watched it happen with my old company, and I seriously, seriously doubt it's unique in the advertising world these days. The CEO & other assorted powers that be just could NOT wrap their heads around new concepts and had an unfailing knack for grasping whatever buzzword their latest newsletters touted, and diving in headfirst, pitching these concepts they don't understand to clients.

Then they proceed to throw money at it, without having any clue how whatever technology he was into for the moment could actually HELP a business. And not listening/comprehending when the people who knew what they were talking about when they explained how that particular idea was completely useless for a client (my favorite was my CEO's couple month long kick on how every client we had needed a blog and an RSS feed IMMEDIATELY, and demanded I include such things in any proposal I cooked up - nevermind the fact that we were pitching primarily business to business advertising, which for the most part had no fucking use for a blog, ever).

Which of course, follows with clients who can't understand why they just spent a bunch of money on some spiffy new innovation, only to see zero business gain. Which traditionally follows with them either cutting back on other, traditional forms of advertising, because we just ate their budget on shit that had no chance of panning out. And that, is how you lose business rapidly.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Clearly CW & I have been working on/with the same accounts for years & just didn't realize it.

And conversely, there's a generation of tech-oriented & talented people who don't understand enough marketing to allow them to sell ice water in hell.

And before anyone asks something along the lines of "hey genius, why don't you be the hybrid and get rich doing it" the answer to that is simple and is one that I'd bet everybody who has dealt with this will recognize immediately: Because if you actually have some understanding of both pieces of the puzzle you know full well that there's no such thing as a slam dunk guaranteed instant success ... and nobody wants to be told about that little reality.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

25% shattering the hopes and dreams of the creative department

Hey, I didn't know you were a game programmer!

Oh wait, that's right, Towel Boy Basketball. Welcome to the industry!

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Hey, I didn't know you were a game programmer!

Oh wait, that's right, Towel Boy Basketball. Welcome to the industry!

Hey, me and my 6 players of that game had fun while it lasted.

Though I'm actually working on a new game right now, too!

[sterlingice]

(I love threads like this. I open up FOFC one day and completely learn about some specialized sliver of the world that I don't know much about.)

SI

[Coffee Warlord]

Alright Jon, let's steal some clients, get a few million in capital together, and start an agency whose tagline is "No Bullshit".

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Alright Jon, let's steal some clients, get a few million in capital together, and start an agency whose tagline is "No Bullshit".

Sounds like a great way to turn a few million dollars into a few thousand in record time

I see few clients who want "No Bullshit", but a hella lot who seem to thrive & spend on "Maximum Bullshit".

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Sounds like a great way to turn a few million dollars into a few thousand in record time

EXACTLY! We'll spend millions and make thousands! It's an instant hit!

I see few clients who want "No Bullshit", but a hella lot who seem to thrive & spend on "Maximum Bullshit".

And most of the clients who want "No Bullshit" are chock full of it. Or have about 5 bucks to spend on advertising.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Alright Jon, let's steal some clients, get a few million in capital together, and start an agency whose tagline is "No Bullshit".

If you guys want your new agency to appear prominently in Google searches, I know a guy who might be able to help you out . . .

[dacman]

Heard a good line about SEO specialists the other day: "Having a full-time SEO specialist is like making the kicker the highest paid member of your football team."

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

If you guys want your new agency to appear prominently in Google searches, I know a guy who might be able to help you out . . .

well played!!!!

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Sometimes I wonder if there are particular industries that are, on average, just getting stupider, not smarter. I'm almost positive, based on experience, that this is true for specific companies (often as a result of growth or, even more, growth and then stagnation).

I think there's a lot of things in play here.

First, the search engines have gotten much smarter and competition has soared in every industry online. You aren't cometing with 10 companies for a competitive search phrase, you're now competing with 500. It means that a few tweaks on your website isn't going to have the imact it did 5+ years ago.

Second, a really good SEO who knows what they are doing is not going to work for someone else (or will and charge ridiculous amounts of money). So you eliminate the ones who know what they are doing and just continue to add ones who don't.

It was a nice underground niche industry years ago when a group of people figured out how to help move sites up. Once it became mainstream, every scam artist in the world jumped on board. Without ever having to show actual results for awhile, it's perfect for them. Reminds me a lot of the herbal pill industry.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by dacman

Heard a good line about SEO specialists the other day: "Having a full-time SEO specialist is like making the kicker the highest paid member of your football team."

Well it works for the Raiders... they are looking good in preseason

[Flasch186]

SEO question:

Do any back links help out a site's PR or is only "Relevant" backlinks those that help? if so, how are those judged?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

SEO question:

Do any back links help out a site's PR or is only "Relevant" backlinks those that help? if so, how are those judged?

As I understand it -- and this is almost certainly an imperfect understanding -- all of them count but relevant ones count considerably more (to what degree no one knows for sure).

The anchor text used on them apparently has an impact on how much they count as well; i.e. someone linking to you by say "click here for ..." isn't nearly as good as someone saying "these real estate experts in Florida" and having that be hotlinked.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

SEO question:

Do any back links help out a site's PR or is only "Relevant" backlinks those that help? if so, how are those judged?

Relevancy is much more important, as well as the strength of the site you're getting it from. So you're better off getting a couple really relevant links from well respected sites than a ton of links from unrelated sites that have no strength on the web.

[MacroGuru]

Understand a PR 6 site that is relevant will help you more than 100 PR 0 sites...

Shoot for relevant PR sites and then use your target keywords for the Anchor Text in your links. SEO pages really aren't that important until you build relevancy.

Link Building is critical and doing it properly is the key.

[Icy]

Another good way to get links back and that is used by SEO a lot lately is to get links from web 2.0 sites (facebook, youtube, tweeter, and thousands more).

So create a profile in each one for your company and link from them, you can also create an small presentation about your company and add it as video in your company youtube channel, maybe also videos explaining what you do, etc.

You could also write articles related to your real state biz and publish them in blogs and articles ping sites, of course always with links to your website using your keywords in the link anchor text.

[Flasch186]

another quick question:

Are all link submissions and their sites equal or is there a trusted list?

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

another quick question:

Are all link submissions and their sites equal or is there a trusted list?

Not all are equal, download the google toolbar...you will have to turn on the Page Rank...thats the first thing I use to show me the PR...second I have is the Alexa toolbar to tell me their alexa traffic ranking.

Hit up SEOchat.com to help you out on a lot of the stuff you are doing...it's in depth a ton of articles and tutorials on what you are doing.

[albionmoonlight]

Joke going around right now:

An SEO copywriter walks into a bar, grill, pub, public house, Irish, bartender, drinks, beer, wine, liquor...

[lordscarlet]

HAH

[Draft Dodger]

worth the bump

[sterlingice]

Quality bump

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Joke going around right now:

An SEO copywriter walks into a bar, grill, pub, public house, Irish, bartender, drinks, beer, wine, liquor...

LOVE it

[Subby]

First rate.

[Logan]

NYT article from today.

Search Optimization and Its Dirty Little Secrets - NYTimes.com

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Logan

NYT article from today.

Search Optimization and Its Dirty Little Secrets - NYTimes.com

Good stuff, thanks for the linkage.