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Old 03-22-2020, 10:35 PM   #51
RainMaker
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Originally Posted by PilotMan View Post
This is simply wrong. So wrong.

No it is not.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

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Old 03-22-2020, 10:49 PM   #52
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Yeah, they did that, and they certainly put that ahead of other priorities, and they should have done things differently, but if you want to stand there and say they didn't invest, or grow, all you show is ignorance.

Im to tired too pull my data, but it's really fucking easy to point fingers when you don't really have a clue what you're talking about. Even if the airlines hadn't spent a penny on stocks, they'd still be up a creek right now. Plain and simple.
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Old 03-22-2020, 11:30 PM   #53
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So every company on that list doesnt re-invest or try to grow is that what you are saying?

Verizon and AT&T sticking billions into 5G is not moving forward?

Maybe some of the bank buy backs seem off but companies have to show growth or potential growth for investors to want to invest in them so I really am unsure of where you are going with this?
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Old 03-22-2020, 11:36 PM   #54
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They wouldn't be up such a creek if they had saved some of that money in the event of sudden downturn in business. If any industry should know about how events can create a risk to their business, it should be the airlines after 9/11.

Now I'm fine with helping the workers who got caught up in this. But there is no reason why those airlines can't re-issue those shares to raise capital.

Just tired of this privatizing profits and socializing losses nonsense. It creates industries like this that don't take risk into account.
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Old 03-22-2020, 11:45 PM   #55
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Maybe some of the bank buy backs seem off but companies have to show growth or potential growth for investors to want to invest in them so I really am unsure of where you are going with this?

Companies are not making money when their stock price goes up. The current investors do. Buying back stock is done to pump up the price of shares for those investors, nothing more. It offers little to no value to the company.

From what I've seen, none of these companies we are talking about had secondary offerings in the last 10 years. They were not courting new investors. So I'm not sure what your statement has to do with what they did.

And I'm not saying Verizon or AT&T didn't invest in their company. I'm saying that if you're in a position to buy back a substantial amount of shares in your company, I would hope you had contingency plans in place for economic downturns first.
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Old 03-23-2020, 07:23 AM   #56
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Here's what you don't understand and it goes like this.

Let's take the most egregious offender on your list, American.


They spend roughly 12.6 billion on stock buy backs over the course of 10 years.



If we look at their 2019 financials where they made a profit of over 2bn, they had operating expenses of 42.7bn. That equals out to 117 million per day.



If they had saved up every single penny over that 10 yr period for this very moment they would have enough free cash on hand to last for....wait for it.....108 days.



So with what the airlines are dealing with. This pales in comparison to whatever fiscal discipline you feel like they should have had.
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Old 03-23-2020, 07:45 AM   #57
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American Airlines specifically look like idiots through this. I believe their CEO came out in 2017(?) and said "I don't think we'll ever lose money again". I think a lot of the reaction people are having are because of American's policies and statements.
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Old 03-23-2020, 09:13 AM   #58
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Since they couldn't get their slush find passed, the Fed is giving out loans to big companies that don't need to be paid back.

https://t.co/snHLVwxpwY?amp=1
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Old 03-23-2020, 09:34 AM   #59
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The whole slush fund thing is so incredible that they think that was a good idea. On my HOA, I can't imagine if we had a pool of money that was like 10k that a single board member could just decide to spend on whatever. What a stupid concept.
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Old 03-23-2020, 10:19 AM   #60
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The slush fund is a 500 billion dollar GOP re-election fund. I understand why they want it, but there's no way Dems can let them have it.
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Old 03-23-2020, 10:41 AM   #61
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Again, if a company gets a bailout, just say they can't buyback their own stock for 5 years. I wouldn't say when the loan gets paid off because companies could use some credit chicanery to say they paid the loan off in a year (and then re-buy stock).
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Old 03-23-2020, 01:09 PM   #62
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If we look at their 2019 financials where they made a profit of over 2bn, they had operating expenses of 42.7bn. That equals out to 117 million per day.

If they had saved up every single penny over that 10 yr period for this very moment they would have enough free cash on hand to last for....wait for it.....108 days.

Operating expenses are going to go down drastically when they layoff workers and cut flights. That is going to happen regardless of the bailout.

This bailout is because these companies don't want to have to re-issue stock or take out real loans. Also because they want the wealthy people who run these companies to not take a hit for their poor decision making.
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Old 03-23-2020, 01:13 PM   #63
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This bailout is because these companies don't want to have to re-issue stock or take out real loans. Also because they want the wealthy people who run these companies to not take a hit for their poor decision making.


They want loan guarantees from the government. There should certainly be strings attached.



Other than that.



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Old 03-24-2020, 10:49 AM   #64
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This relief bill is becoming a disaster. The House bill has carbon emissions restrictions on airlines, same day voter registration, a raised minimum wage, $1 billion for low income cell phones, paying off some student loan debt and a $35 million grant for the Kennedy Center of Arts. Sheesh - can we just once get a quick bill passed to help people without overloading it with political crap?

It looks like the Senate bill was atleast changed to not allow the $500 billion to be spent on company stock or executive compensation. As much as I don't like McConnell, I think I have to side with him over Pelosi here. It's almost like she doesn't want anything passed at this point so she can blame Trump as people foreclose on their houses and can't make bills.
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Old 03-24-2020, 10:58 AM   #65
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It's a stimulus bill. Why shouldn't paying off student loan debt, grants to art facilities that are struggling, low income cell phones, and higher minimum wage - which all would help struggling people - NOT be included on it? A stimulus shouldn't just be to give big corporations money, but help working class and middle class folk. And same day voter registration as well as mail in voting will help instill confidence in our democracy if this virus continues through the summer and early fall.

I will grant you carbon emissions on airlines doesn't help - but that can be dealt with in negotiations with the Senate.
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:05 AM   #66
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Raised minimum wage doesn't help people who aren't working (nor does same day voter registration or a grant for the Kennedy Arts). The point is she put in a bunch of "poison pills" she knows republicans won't vote for (and have nothing to do with helping people who lost their job due to CovId) as a way to draw things out and maybe get 1-2 of her honeydo list.

If Republicans ran the house and put in things restricting abortions or expanding gun ownership in a bill like this, the media would lose its mind. The point here should be trying to get money to people who are on furlough or lost their job the last two weeks. If congress wants to bicker a day or two about how to handle the protections for the bailout money, I think that's reasonable. But adding in things like Union representation for airlines, voter registration changes, carbon emissions, etc is just trying to delay the help people really need.
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:11 AM   #67
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Raised minimum wage helps the people who are still currently working. Same day voter registration, along with mail in ballot requirements and early voting, helps restore faith in our democracy, especially when people are fearing how upcoming primaries are going to happen. And the arts is getting slammed, for obvious reasons. Grants to help those institutions is important to make sure they don't go under (as much as grants to airlines or cruise ships).

All of these things are appropriate for an economic stimulus. The bill is supposed to be a shot of adrenaline to the economy, not merely just give money to only those specifically affected so far by Covid 19. That's part of it, but it's far more than that.
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:24 AM   #68
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If Republicans ran the house and put in things restricting abortions or expanding gun ownership in a bill like this

The Senate bill had a provision to keep non-profits that receive Medicaid expenditures from being able to participate in the loan program. Not only does that include Planned Parenthood, it also includes local health centers, mental health providers, and group homes. If this is a medical crisis, why on earth would they single out these groups specifically from being able to partake in the loan program?
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:32 AM   #69
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I think you could make an argument that non-profits that already receive Medicaid are not the target audience for a bill trying to get money to small businesses and people who lost their job. I'm sure there was a political component to it as well - but I atleast see some logic. Voter registration and carbon emissions on airlines make little sense in this bill.

IMO, we should do a new bill specifically for voting once this is done. Given the risk of having people overload poll locations (even in the fall), we should setup a plan where all states should allow mail-in and early voting for everyone. I would be glad to have that conversation and have people put some thought into it after a bunch of my friends who are unemployed and worried about their mortgage in April get some relief.
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:39 AM   #70
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Given the risk of having people overload poll locations (even in the fall), we should setup a plan where all states should allow mail-in and early voting for everyone. I would be glad to have that conversation and have people put some thought into it after a bunch of my friends who are unemployed and worried about their mortgage in April get some relief.

Hawaii is still scheduled to have their primary on April 4. Wisconsin is still scheduled to have their primary on April 7.

Having some voting protections to help prevent people from trying to physically get to the polls is essential to help prevent the spread.
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:40 AM   #71
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I think you could make an argument that non-profits that already receive Medicaid are not the target audience for a bill trying to get money to small businesses and people who lost their job. I'm sure there was a political component to it as well - but I atleast see some logic. Voter registration and carbon emissions on airlines make little sense in this bill.

IMO, we should do a new bill specifically for voting once this is done. Given the risk of having people overload poll locations (even in the fall), we should setup a plan where all states should allow mail-in and early voting for everyone. I would be glad to have that conversation and have people put some thought into it after a bunch of my friends who are unemployed and worried about their mortgage in April get some relief.

I'll have that conversation for you: the GOP is against expansion of any voting rights at all, period. In fact, they've been pretty aggressively contracting them for years in states where they have control of the state apparatus.
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:50 AM   #72
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I think you could make an argument that non-profits that already receive Medicaid are not the target audience for a bill trying to get money to small businesses and people who lost their job. I'm sure there was a political component to it as well - but I atleast see some logic. Voter registration and carbon emissions on airlines make little sense in this bill.

But they didn't say ANY business that receives Medicare reimbursements, only non-profits. These non-profits are small companies too, and face the same financial pressures as the for-profit places. They specifically targeted these places that have been on their hit list for some time. Non-profits do not receive 100% of their operating income from Medicare. And Medicare pays on net-90, so being able to get a bridge loan could be vital for these places. It makes ZERO sense at all in a declared pandemic to make things more difficult for a medical provider to operate.
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:53 AM   #73
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Hawaii is still scheduled to have their primary on April 4. Wisconsin is still scheduled to have their primary on April 7.

Having some voting protections to help prevent people from trying to physically get to the polls is essential to help prevent the spread.
Both will get postponed (like the Louisiana one). So, there is plenty of time to take 3-4 weeks and figure this issue out.

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I'll have that conversation for you: the GOP is against expansion of any voting rights at all, period. In fact, they've been pretty aggressively contracting them for years in states where they have control of the state apparatus.
The GOP is flat out wrong here and I think most people would agree. If the democrats come out after this relief bill is done and say we need to setup a bill to allow mail-in voting across the country for the rest of the primaries and the general in the fall - they would get massive support on that. But, again, there's no reason to delay this relief bill 1-2 weeks to have that discussion now. I'm not sure people understand the loss of jobs/businesses that is occurring in the US right now because of this distancing. The longer we wait, the more danger we all are of some kind of civil unrest and unrecoverable business/job situation. This isn't the time to play petty politics.
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:57 AM   #74
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But they didn't say ANY business that receives Medicare reimbursements, only non-profits. These non-profits are small companies too, and face the same financial pressures as the for-profit places. They specifically targeted these places that have been on their hit list for some time. Non-profits do not receive 100% of their operating income from Medicare. And Medicare pays on net-90, so being able to get a bridge loan could be vital for these places. It makes ZERO sense at all in a decalred pandemic to make things more difficult for a medical provider to operate.
What's an example of a medical-related non-profit that gets medicare and is suffering to the level of airlines, restaurants, service businesses, etc? Again, I don't think they need this exclusion - but I'm not sure how much of the aid money would be going to these organizations to begin with. It's akin to excluding semiconductor industries that are still manufacturing. It's not really needed, but it's not really the target for this bill either.
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Old 03-24-2020, 12:01 PM   #75
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Again, why the SPECIFIC exclusion for non-profits? If you look at the list of them it becomes readily apparent why the GOP wanted that in.

This is the GOP's message, and sadly it appears to be working: "We ignored and downplayed the seriousness of this for WEEKS. But now if the Democrats don't immediately agree with what we want to pass, they are putting everyone in danger."
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Old 03-24-2020, 12:06 PM   #76
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there is plenty of time to take 3-4 weeks and figure this issue out.

What do we need to figure out? Mail in voting, early voting, same day voter registration are minor fixes to prevent people congregating to vote to stop the spread of Covid 19. This part isn't an economic stimulus, true, but it is way to stop the spread of the virus.
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Old 03-24-2020, 12:13 PM   #77
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Again, why the SPECIFIC exclusion for non-profits? If you look at the list of them it becomes readily apparent why the GOP wanted that in.

This is the GOP's message, and sadly it appears to be working: "We ignored and downplayed the seriousness of this for WEEKS. But now if the Democrats don't immediately agree with what we want to pass, they are putting everyone in danger."
Again, I think a debate about who should and shouldn’t be eligible to receive the aid money is ok for this bill. My issue is more with using the things that have nothing to do with getting aid money out as a political football. Pelosi looks like she would rather have people not get aid for another week or two in order to get one of her unrelated items passed.

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What do we need to figure out? Mail in voting, early voting, same day voter registration are minor fixes to prevent people congregating to vote to stop the spread of Covid 19. This part isn't an economic stimulus, true, but it is way to stop the spread of the virus.
There are a ton of "no-brainer" things from either side we could pass to help the Covid-19 spread. But trying to put them all in a quick relief aid bill would mean it doesn't come out until May. Plus, I don't think most people are against Mail in voting on its own - many republican run states have that going run now. It's more the same-day voter registration that the GOP doesn't like. Either way, a real debate needs to be had on voting - but not one that holds up aid that people need.
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Old 03-24-2020, 12:16 PM   #78
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What do we need to figure out? Mail in voting, early voting, same day voter registration are minor fixes to prevent people congregating to vote to stop the spread of Covid 19. This part isn't an economic stimulus, true, but it is way to stop the spread of the virus.
This really has a lot to do with the fact they are not sure they will get another bill passed in the near-future. They are trying to fix as many things as they can while they can.

The main point to hold out for is the controls on what the big businesses must do to get the bail-out money. History has already told us that we can not trust these companies to "do the right thing." Giving all discretion to the President is also a complete non-starter.
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Old 03-24-2020, 12:19 PM   #79
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Again, I think a debate about who should and shouldn’t be eligible to receive the aid money is ok for this bill. My issue is more with using the things that have nothing to do with getting aid money out as a political football. Pelosi looks like she would rather have people not get aid for another week or two in order to get one of her unrelated items passed.
There is no expectation that Pelosi is going to get everything she is asking for. He have to give the wishlist to get the other side to move off their garbage. Neither side is, nor should they, totally give in to the other side.
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Old 03-24-2020, 12:25 PM   #80
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This really has a lot to do with the fact they are not sure they will get another bill passed in the near-future. They are trying to fix as many things as they can while they can.

The main point to hold out for is the controls on what the big businesses must do to get the bail-out money. History has already told us that we can not trust these companies to "do the right thing." Giving all discretion to the President is also a complete non-starter.

Also right. I mean with increasing self-quarantine of Congresspeople, who knows when another bill can be passed. In a month will there be enough for a quorum?

Besides, both sides are confident that they will have a deal tonight. These things can be negotiated pretty danged quickly when they want.
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Old 03-24-2020, 12:29 PM   #81
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As long as it gets done in the next few days, I think it's OK. I just didn't want this dragging out until next week. I might be overreacting a bit if it is passed tonight.
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Old 03-24-2020, 01:40 PM   #82
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Good luck to you Boeing!

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Old 03-24-2020, 03:26 PM   #83
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Good luck to you Boeing!



Link to actual article: https://www.barrons.com/articles/boe...ce-51585074419
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Old 03-25-2020, 08:56 AM   #84
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I had missed this part of the CEO's quote,

Quote:
"we just look at all the other options, and we’ve got plenty of them.”

If they have plenty of options, they shouldn't get any money from the government regardless of ownership.
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Old 03-25-2020, 08:59 AM   #85
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Good luck to you Boeing!


That's great if Boeing is really, really sure.

TBH, I smell BS
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Old 03-25-2020, 11:01 AM   #86
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Meant as an open question/speculation. If due to tough times, a company like Boeing actually calls it quits and gives up, what happens? This isn't the Thai place down the street, it's not just a shuttered space, right? Presumably they'd eventually liquidate...and they have massive assets that could fairly quickly turn into productive places to, Idunno, build planes? That people will eventually want?

It just seems like they're "too big to fail" not as a rationale to save them, but rather as an argument that no short term thing can actually undercut the advantage they have with a place in a oligopoly market where there are high practical (not necessarily legal) barriers to entry.

Like, somebody... Blackrock or Google or somebody... steps in, buys up their assets, and basically goes full McDowell's on it, right? Welcome to the Dow Jones 30, Bohing Airlines.
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Old 03-25-2020, 11:11 AM   #87
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Instead of sending us all a check they should have just had us invest in Boeing stock. I mean I understand that's not how it works but damn. Up almost 70% this week. I really thought about getting in last week when it was under $100 after being near $300 a few weeks ago but didn't want to stake my family's nestegg on a hunch.
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Old 03-25-2020, 12:04 PM   #88
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Disney is at, what, 84? Thats another to jump in on.
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Old 03-25-2020, 12:20 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by QuikSand View Post
Meant as an open question/speculation. If due to tough times, a company like Boeing actually calls it quits and gives up, what happens? This isn't the Thai place down the street, it's not just a shuttered space, right? Presumably they'd eventually liquidate...and they have massive assets that could fairly quickly turn into productive places to, Idunno, build planes? That people will eventually want?

It just seems like they're "too big to fail" not as a rationale to save them, but rather as an argument that no short term thing can actually undercut the advantage they have with a place in a oligopoly market where there are high practical (not necessarily legal) barriers to entry.

Like, somebody... Blackrock or Google or somebody... steps in, buys up their assets, and basically goes full McDowell's on it, right? Welcome to the Dow Jones 30, Bohing Airlines.

That's a bit simplistic. One of the problems during any major collapse is that how the knock on affects the companies that deal with Boeing. Remember the old saw "For want of a nail", that eventually traveled up to the King being killed? Boeing is the king, and it's going to drive all those layers below it into shock/possible dissolution.
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Old 03-26-2020, 02:30 PM   #90
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So how much of the 2 Trillion, yes a number that is stupid, do the big corporations have access to take?
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Old 03-26-2020, 04:02 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by SirFozzie View Post
That's a bit simplistic. One of the problems during any major collapse is that how the knock on affects the companies that deal with Boeing. Remember the old saw "For want of a nail", that eventually traveled up to the King being killed? Boeing is the king, and it's going to drive all those layers below it into shock/possible dissolution.

Why can't they re-issue stock to raise capital?
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Old 03-26-2020, 04:03 PM   #92
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lol

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Old 03-26-2020, 04:32 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by tarcone View Post
So how much of the 2 Trillion, yes a number that is stupid, do the big corporations have access to take?

I thought I saw over a trillion but might be wrong.
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Old 03-26-2020, 04:57 PM   #94
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Old 03-27-2020, 03:39 PM   #95
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What was the point of the $25 billion in grants they just got?

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Old 03-27-2020, 04:16 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by RainMaker View Post
So, I make two investments:
1. I invest $10,000 in real estate and lose $1,000 (have $9K after 2020)
2. I invest $10,000 in Apple stock and make $2,000 (have $12K after 2020)

It's "not fair" that I pay a net capital gains tax on $1,000 based on the sum of my investments? In the above case, you would rather the investor pay taxes on the $2K but get no reduction in gains for the $1,000 he lost?

I know the "cost" numbers are what bother people, but I can't see an issue with the logic in it. Now, maybe some loopholes would need to be closed after seeing it in practice for a year - but this seems like a pretty nice change for any of us who own real estate (more investors = higher prices for properties).
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Old 03-27-2020, 04:18 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Arles View Post
So, I make two investments:
1. I invest $10,000 in real estate and lose $1,000 (have $9K after 2020)
2. I invest $10,000 in Apple stock and make $2,000 (have $12K after 2020)

It's "not fair" that I pay a net capital gains tax on $1,000 based on the sum of my investments? In the above case, you would rather the investor pay taxes on the $2K but get no reduction in gains for the $1,000 he lost?

I know the "cost" numbers are what bother people, but I can't see an issue with the logic in it. Now, maybe some loopholes would need to be closed after seeing it in practice for a year - but this seems like a pretty nice change for any of us who own real estate (more investors = higher prices for properties).

The real estate losses are only on paper though - it's based on depreciating the real estate asset, not the market value of the asset.
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Old 03-27-2020, 04:25 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Arles View Post
So, I make two investments:
1. I invest $10,000 in real estate and lose $1,000 (have $9K after 2020)
2. I invest $10,000 in Apple stock and make $2,000 (have $12K after 2020)

It's "not fair" that I pay a net capital gains tax on $1,000 based on the sum of my investments? In the above case, you would rather the investor pay taxes on the $2K but get no reduction in gains for the $1,000 he lost?

I know the "cost" numbers are what bother people, but I can't see an issue with the logic in it. Now, maybe some loopholes would need to be closed after seeing it in practice for a year - but this seems like a pretty nice change for any of us who own real estate (more investors = higher prices for properties).

This would not apply under your scenario. There was a limit that you couldn't use it on over $500k in capital gains. People were gaming the system with depreciation of properties to zero out gains.

This change is only for wealthy people who make over $500,000 a year in capital gains.
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Old 03-27-2020, 04:55 PM   #99
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Ah, OK - so it's a way for people to use depreciation to reduce their investment liability. I agree with you guys then, that seems like a big tax loophole. Thanks for the info.
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Old 03-27-2020, 07:58 PM   #100
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The real estate losses are only on paper though - it's based on depreciating the real estate asset, not the market value of the asset.

Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arles View Post
Ah, OK - so it's a way for people to use depreciation to reduce their investment liability. I agree with you guys then, that seems like a big tax loophole. Thanks for the info.

And, yes. It's horseshit.
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