Ping pilotman

[Lathum]

Maybe you or someone else can explain to me how airlines can purposely oversell flights and it isn't considered a bait and switch? And don't anyone say it's because people voluntarily give up their seats because that doesn't always happen.

[SackAttack]

Short answer: the law allows them to because a percentage of ticket holders just don't show for any given flight. The law also regulates how the airlines are to respond in an oversold situation:

eCFR — Code of Federal Regulations

[claphamsa]

who doesnt show up to a flight? its not like a 10$ movie!

[heybrad]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

who doesnt show up to a flight? its not like a 10$ movie!

Business people don't show up for flights.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by heybrad

Business people don't show up for flights.

I suppose technically this is true, but I can't imagine working for a company like that.

I think in 7 years I can count the number of flights we've rescheduled on two hands. And that includes rescheduling like...days out.

[terpkristin]

For work purposes, we've cancelled flights regularly, though they're not usually flights to places that people want to go to regularly (Haiti, Cayenne, etc...). A launch slips, we have to re-schedule tons of flights, both ways, not to mention the ones that are collateral damage (for example last year I was to travel to Kourou and then to London: our launch slipped twice, meaning my 3 flight legs to Kourou and back got re-booked twice, plus the trip to and from London, which relied on the launch date...).

I've also cancelled two personal trips in recent times due to my damn back. So that's 4 flights.

/tk

[PilotMan]

Pretty much what Sack said. Airlines have been overselling flights for years and until fairly recently there wasn't any limit to how much they could oversell and there was minimal repercussions for passengers who were kicked off.

At least now there are set rules that govern all of that.

People don't actually have to volunteer to give up their seats. The airline will go down the list of people who bought tickets. That order is determined by ticket price and class and time of check in. Passengers who bought cheap tickets and checked in last can be taken off the flight without their consent. There are rules of course that govern what happens next but it can still happen.

[PilotMan]

I love people who cancel their reservations or don't show up for their flights. It often means that I can get to work and back home again.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Pretty much what Sack said. Airlines have been overselling flights for years and until fairly recently there wasn't any limit to how much they could oversell and there was minimal repercussions for passengers who were kicked off.

At least now there are set rules that govern all of that.

People don't actually have to volunteer to give up their seats. The airline will go down the list of people who bought tickets. That order is determined by ticket price and class and time of check in. Passengers who bought cheap tickets and checked in last can be taken off the flight without their consent. There are rules of course that govern what happens next but it can still happen.

The law requires the airlines to seek volunteers before they start booting people involuntarily, though. If nobody volunteers, they can still be removed according to the matrix you mention.

They can't just say "Alright, knuckleheads, listen up; we're overbooked by 10%, so this list of names? Tough shit."

[PilotMan]

You're absolutely correct.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

who doesnt show up to a flight? its not like a 10$ movie!

In my experiences people with delayed connecting flights.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Passengers who bought cheap tickets and checked in last can be taken off the flight without their consent. There are rules of course that govern what happens next but it can still happen.

That is what seems so wrong to me. It is a textbook bait and switch.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Lathum

That is what seems so wrong to me. It is a textbook bait and switch.

It is in the fine print of the Ts and Cs.

[RainMaker]

It definitely sucks but it's probably a necessary evil. Just not efficient to fly half empty planes when people don't show up.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by heybrad

Business people don't show up for flights.

At DFW/American it seems to be the opposite - 10-15 empty seats 24 hours before equates to oversold jammed flight the day of. I think I've had an empty middle seat maybe twice in the past two years. Thanks Obama!

[Buccaneer]

In the past 10 years, I have purposely not showed up on 3 flights for personal trips. The reason was that I changed my itinerary and booked on different flights. For example in 2010, I was supposed to be on a flight from Baltimore back home but I decided to fly to Las Vegas instead. No way to change my original booking, so I just didn't show up - it was pretty cheap to book two one-way legs anyways. Same thing 2 years when I was in Palm Springs and instead of going home, I flew to SF.

[stevew]

If you miss a flight, are late or get held up in security, do you have to pay for it? I have no idea, I've never flown before.

Also I'd love to see someone try to pitch the idea of frequent flier miles in 2014 as a new idea. Businesses would probably be like, we pay for the flight...but the flyer gets the benefit of flying? As if.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It definitely sucks but it's probably a necessary evil. Just not efficient to fly half empty planes when people don't show up.

why? The seats are paid for already.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Lathum

why? The seats are paid for already.

Not totally correct. Most business travel is full fare and fully refundable.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by stevew

If you miss a flight, are late or get held up in security, do you have to pay for it? I have no idea, I've never flown before.

Yep. You are responsible for getting to the gate on time. I've seen it all when it comes to this stuff. People reading a book at another gate and missing their flight, people showing up late and screaming in the security line, People screaming at the ticket lady on the concourse telling her to get the plane back. . . really sad and funny stuff at the same time.

[bhlloy]

However not if you get held up by INS/TSA as I found out on my first trip to the States - either that or I had a very nice and understanding ticket desk clerk

[cartman]

How you treat the ticket desk person goes a long way. If you try to take things out on them, barriers get put up that otherwise wouldn't exist.

[miked]

Originally Posted by stevew

If you miss a flight, are late or get held up in security, do you have to pay for it? I have no idea, I've never flown before.

Also I'd love to see someone try to pitch the idea of frequent flier miles in 2014 as a new idea. Businesses would probably be like, we pay for the flight...but the flyer gets the benefit of flying? As if.

Businesses still get benefits as they are sometimes able to negotiate lower rates with the airlines (sometimes via 3rd parties). If you look at what Delta has announced with their new system, you can clearly see they are gearing things toward the individual business traveler and not the company.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by cartman

How you treat the ticket desk person goes a long way. If you try to take things out on them, barriers get put up that otherwise wouldn't exist.

I would argue the converse can also be true in that if you're not a jerk to them, they will help navigate you through some boundaries

SI

[Blackadar]

I fly pretty much every week. Yay for me. Thank goodness I have some status so I get treated like a fucking human being.

They overbook every flight they can. It's simply more revenue if someone doesn't show up. Plus, they can always find suckers who don't know or understand denied boarding compensation rules and who think they're forced to take that paltry $200 voucher when they're bumped. So they'll jump on that voucher thinking that the airline might just pull the offer back and bump them for nothing.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by heybrad

Business people don't show up for flights.

Yeah. Sometimes people don't get their wakeup call from the hotel that they confirmed was all set up.

Happen to a coworker a couple weeks ago when everyone from our company was in Nashville running our convention.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Not totally correct. Most business travel is full fare and fully refundable.

Really? Both employers I have had always book non-refundable tickets.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Really? Both employers I have had always book non-refundable tickets.

Yeah, I think PilotMan is wrong on this one. Every business trip I take - and the other 2000 employees take - is on nonrefundable fares.

[flere-imsaho]

My last employer required that I book fully refundable tickets.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

My last employer required that I book fully refundable tickets.

How often did you fly?

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

My last employer required that I book fully refundable tickets.

Most companies do the non-refundable route because they can still use the ticket in the future even if you cancel the flight.

[flere-imsaho]

At that particular company I flew once every two months or so. But we had people who flew every week, same policy. There was a lot of flying, however, and I know the company definitely got a break on prices, and I'm assuming a break on the refundable part.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Most companies do the non-refundable route because they can still use the ticket in the future even if you cancel the flight.

Most times we had to cancel it was a day or two before, however, so I'm not sure how much they could re-use those tickets. And in general any cancellations were due to changing business priorities. It was a pretty busy environment.