Howard Dean

digamma · 07-14-2003, 07:31 PM

I've been very intrigued by the campaign, to this point, of former Vermont governor Howard Dean for the Democratic nomination for the presidency. I am not necessarily talking about his views or what he is saying or doing, but rather how he is saying and doing it. A great portion of Dean's campaign has focused on the internet. He has relied on internet organized "meet-ups" as pseudo-campaign events, and there are a number of opportunities to get involved in his campaign by a click on his web site. I gather that a large percentage of his fundraising has come from on-line donations as well. He has is own "Blog for America."

I'm curious as to what others think about his methods--but not necessarily his views. Is it the beginning of something we will see more of going forward? Will Dean succeed by being the first candidate for national office to capitalize on the internet as a real medium and campaign tool?

The web site for those of you who are curious is here.

ice4277 · 07-14-2003, 07:34 PM

I think a lot of it depends on how successful his campaign ultimately is. I'm not saying he has to win the nomination, but if he puts in a good showing throughout, I'm sure we'll see this style imitated much more often. To me, it has a much more intimate, localized feel that definitely will appeal to a number of people.

Swaggs · 07-14-2003, 07:57 PM

I think ice hit it right on the head.

Dean has utilized the internet as a campaign tool very well, but I imagine if it proves useful, Bush and his $200M+ treasure chest will find a way to make it more efficient and even more useful.

digamma · 07-14-2003, 08:17 PM

I agree that the Dean campaign does have a definite grassroots feel. I wonder if a more efficient use of the internet--and I don't know that Dean's use is inefficient--would take that away. It seems to me that part of Dean's success is due to his appealing to types of voters who have never been enfranchised in this way. I think this contrast to "traditional" campaigns may be part of his early success. Do you lose that if more traditional players, with more traditional organizations, try to jump in and use the internet as well?

vtbub · 07-14-2003, 08:45 PM

He was my Governor for 12 years, always voted for him. He seems to be much more liberal on the campaign trail then as Gov.

The internet thing has made him a force and getting people into politics is a good thing.

Ksyrup · 07-14-2003, 09:08 PM

The problem is, he is focusing on the one group that does not typically turn out to vote - young people. He needs more than that in order to make dent. I don't see too many 40 and up politically savvy people who spend that much time on the internet, or are familiar enough with the internet to get involved. Maybe in 20-25 years, when even senior citizens will have spent the majority of their adult lives online, this could succeed, but I just don't see it happening now.

tucker342 · 07-14-2003, 09:27 PM

That's a very good point Ksyrup. If college students did vote, the political landscape would be so much different, to bad they don't....

ISiddiqui · 07-14-2003, 09:29 PM

It's funny... it seems the Dean-heads are the similar to the people that initially came out for Nader in 2004.

Anrhydeddu · 07-14-2003, 09:32 PM

It (internet grassroots) won't make a bit of difference. 1) He's too much of a left-wing extremist, from New England as well and 2) TV is still where everything will be at.

Swaggs · 07-14-2003, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
It (internet grassroots) won't make a bit of difference. 1) He's too much of a left-wing extremist, from New England as well and 2) TV is still where everything will be at.

I think the question he is raising is not so much with Dean, but with the viability of the "internet-grassroots" campaigning.

In an age when the nation is pretty much 50% conservative/50% liberal, lighting a fire under a small percentage of folks, as Dean is looking to do here, could become a valuable tactic.

QuikSand · 07-15-2003, 09:23 AM

I'm not sure that the net-roots strategy has any legs long term, but it certainly has played a major role in seeing Dean jump from "one of the other ones" on the long list of Democratic hopefuls to being consistently considered among the top three.

Since the primary system is, in large part, still about "big mo" - it's tough to argue that this strategy doesn't help. I don't necessarily think that this device helps him win the later primaries-- but if he continues on his current path he'll do respectably well in the Iowa Caucuses, and then pretty well in New Hampshire. It's certainly possible that the field gets narrowed to three or four after that point... and who originally thought that Dean would be one who made it that far?

And once he gets past the "seven dwarves" stage and can become a legitimate threat for the nomination, he will have to be able to give effective stump speeches and do worthwhile television. I agree that both of those are more important than the net presence... but you've got to get the invitation before you get to dance.

IMetTrentGreen · 07-15-2003, 11:44 AM

his strategy has made him a lot of money so far. i've got a friend who works for eddie rodriguez, who is also part of dean's campaign. he says the money he makes now will be put to use when the time come in more mainstream media

i still don't think he'll win, but i do think he's the best choice

clintl · 07-15-2003, 12:09 PM

I think Dean's strategy has been brilliant so far, and I've enjoyed his campaign so far. He has real potential to be the kind of candidate that Gary Hart was in 1984, and John McCain was in 2000. Unfortunately for Dean, neither of those two won their party's nomination.

I have some concerns about him as a potential nominee, but I'm keeping an open mind about him.

vtbub · 07-15-2003, 12:16 PM

The key to Dean will be Iowa. If he finishes 2nd or 3rd there, he has a serious shot at the nomination. Our papers here are full of Dean news on a daily basis.

Primaries are all about energizing your party base and not about wooing the moderate voter bloc. Howard Dean may have done that better then any canidate in a generation.

Dean has exceeded any expectations, he needed EVERYTHING to break the right way, and it has. He may not win because of the 'net, but somebody will study his campaign and in 2008, a nominee will come from the 'net

Senator · 07-15-2003, 04:20 PM

Good points vtub, as usual.

I think my views are best summed up by Quiksand here, as I am sure just thrills him to no end.

timmynausea · 07-15-2003, 05:44 PM

Yeah, I'd say Dean is now basically the front-runner, largely because of his approach to both the internet and rhetoric, which is offering essentially the opposite of the long-time republican tactic of "anti-politics." Trying to make people that feel left-out feel empowered and capable, instead of encouraging everyone to blame all problems on the government being involved.
I guess the interesting thing is that Dean has presented himself as very liberal early, when his record as a governor is extremely moderate (balanced budget, cut taxes for business, pro death penalty). I think Dean's plan, though, was to present himself as a total and real opposition to Bush, something that people like Leiberman, Kerry and etc. have been afraid to do very completely, and even if they do, they voted with him on basically every major issue since sept. 11. If Dean carries the early momentum and manages to win the nomination it'll be interesting to see what happens. If he can continue to make people feel empowered and really interest the common people in politics and examining the issues, I think Bush could be in trouble.

ISiddiqui · 07-15-2003, 05:49 PM

Quote:

He may not win because of the 'net, but somebody will study his campaign and in 2008, a nominee will come from the 'net

True... I don't think Dean has a good chance in this one. He's in the news now, but by early next year, you'll see one of the established party guys in front. Either the Democratic Party will 'McCain' him (as the Republicans did to Sen. McCain in 2000) or he'll just fall off when the regular Democrats make their voice known.

But SOME people will remember his candidacy.. and they'll take lessons from it.

digamma · 07-15-2003, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
True... I don't think Dean has a good chance in this one. He's in the news now, but by early next year, you'll see one of the established party guys in front. Either the Democratic Party will 'McCain' him (as the Republicans did to Sen. McCain in 2000) or he'll just fall off when the regular Democrats make their voice known.

But SOME people will remember his candidacy.. and they'll take lessons from it.

I've wondered about this, and in March/April I would have agreed with you. It was at that time Dean started gaining momentum. There were articles wondering if he was peaking too soon. He is still carrying that momentum now, so I wonder if he will sputter out. It will certainly be interesting to see how his campaign carries over to the time when the real money starts getting spent.

ISiddiqui · 07-15-2003, 06:21 PM

I've seen too many candidates get HOT early and then sputter out. I remember all the talk around Phil Gramm in 1996, IIRC, when he raised $20 million... but then didn't even make it to the New Hampshire primary.

These, what I like to call, 'renegade' primary runners don't usually make it all the way. The 'established' runners are the ones that do so.

And, of course, right now, Dean is peaking because of his war stance. There are other issues where he is much more conservative, which might hurt him in the primaries. For instance he is opposed to gun control and he is pro-death penalty. The latter issue may not hurt him nearly as badly as the former one.

albionmoonlight · 07-15-2003, 06:37 PM

Bush has so much money right now, its crazy. He has raised more $$ than all of the dems combined. I'm not saying that it is a lead pipe lock that Bush will win the presidency (hey, even the Yankees lose sometimes), but I would not be worrying too much right now if I were a Republician.

(Also--the Dems still have their heads up their asses. 2 weeks ago, there were three major "campaign" issues as I saw them (ignoring the omnipresent "international situation"): The sodomy case, the affirmative action case, and health care for seniors.

To me, on two of those issues, the dems. had an opportunity to gain some momentum--they could talk about how Bush's tax cut is putting a squeeze on seniors, or they could talk about how they support a government that cannot impose its personal beliefs in the bedroom--and challenge Bush to respond on each point. Instead, what little talk I saw from them was vague support of affirmative action--a policy which (agree with it or not) would seem to have the least support from moderate Americans.
I could be wrong, but I see the "typical" American as someone who would like to be able to receive occasional oral sex from his wife without being branded a felon, who does not want to spend old age in poverty because of an accident of poor health, and who believes that his kids should get into good schools if they have the best grades, no matter their race. The dems. do not agree with me.)

Buzzbee · 07-15-2003, 06:40 PM

I haven't followed the campaign at all, but based on the descriptions here, it sounds like he might be taking a page out of Clinton's book. Anyone remember the former president playing saxophone o MTV?

As Ksyrup said, young people do not generally turn out in droves to vote. However, if by using the internet to reach college age and early twenty-somethings Dean is able to get them to turn out, it is in his and the Democrat's favor. College students tend to be liberal, so reaching out to them on their own turf might get a few more out to the polls.

So, it's not a matter of converting them, they are typically already liberal/democratic. It is just a matter of getting them to turn out.

ISiddiqui · 07-15-2003, 07:00 PM

That normally does not happen. Nader reached out to the college kids as well... he got 3% of the total vote.

Swaggs · 07-15-2003, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
That normally does not happen. Nader reached out to the college kids as well... he got 3% of the total vote.

Since the election was virtually a tie, I bet either side (Gore more than Bush, I suspect) would have have liked that three percent. With the nation so partisan right now, 3% can go a long way.

ISiddiqui · 07-15-2003, 07:52 PM

But the fact is that 3% wasn't anywhere NEAR winning. Basically, a candidacy that is dedicated to those youngsters (which it kinda seemed the Nader campaign was) isn't going to go far. Dean needs to hit the middle class vote if he is going to have any shot.

Senator · 07-15-2003, 07:57 PM

ISiddiqui,

Good call on the Phil Gramm angle. I had a part in that debacle.

digamma · 07-29-2003, 12:32 AM

A couple of potentially noteworthy items I saw today in this regard:

1. Dean raised $500k over the weekend in an effort to match Bush & Cheney's one day fundraising total from "large special interests." Dean's goal was $250k.

2. One of Dean's successful tactics has been the use of Meetup.com. John Kerry is now using Meetup and has "Meetup for Kerry." Dean has approximately 66,000 signed up for his Meet-ups. Kerry has approximately 8,000 as of today.

As some polls now have Dean leading in New Hampshire and running second in Vermont, he may be closer to getting that invitation to the ball Quiksand referred to above.

He still may be peaking to early, but it is interesting to watch.

07-14-2003, 07:57 PM	#3
Swaggs Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	I think ice hit it right on the head. Dean has utilized the internet as a campaign tool very well, but I imagine if it proves useful, Bush and his $200M+ treasure chest will find a way to make it more efficient and even more useful. __________________ DOWN WITH HATTRICK!!! The RWBL Are you reading In The Bleachers?

07-14-2003, 08:45 PM	#5
vtbub College Starter Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Burlington, VT USA	He was my Governor for 12 years, always voted for him. He seems to be much more liberal on the campaign trail then as Gov. The internet thing has made him a force and getting people into politics is a good thing. __________________

07-14-2003, 09:08 PM	#6
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	The problem is, he is focusing on the one group that does not typically turn out to vote - young people. He needs more than that in order to make dent. I don't see too many 40 and up politically savvy people who spend that much time on the internet, or are familiar enough with the internet to get involved. Maybe in 20-25 years, when even senior citizens will have spent the majority of their adult lives online, this could succeed, but I just don't see it happening now. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

07-14-2003, 09:29 PM	#8
ISiddiqui Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Decatur, GA	It's funny... it seems the Dean-heads are the similar to the people that initially came out for Nader in 2004. __________________ "A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams

07-15-2003, 12:16 PM	#14
vtbub College Starter Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Burlington, VT USA	The key to Dean will be Iowa. If he finishes 2nd or 3rd there, he has a serious shot at the nomination. Our papers here are full of Dean news on a daily basis. Primaries are all about energizing your party base and not about wooing the moderate voter bloc. Howard Dean may have done that better then any canidate in a generation. Dean has exceeded any expectations, he needed EVERYTHING to break the right way, and it has. He may not win because of the 'net, but somebody will study his campaign and in 2008, a nominee will come from the 'net __________________

07-14-2003, 07:34 PM	#2
ice4277 Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Berkley, MI: The Hotbed of FOFC!	I think a lot of it depends on how successful his campaign ultimately is. I'm not saying he has to win the nomination, but if he puts in a good showing throughout, I'm sure we'll see this style imitated much more often. To me, it has a much more intimate, localized feel that definitely will appeal to a number of people.

07-14-2003, 08:17 PM	#4
digamma Torchbearer Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: On Lake Harriet	I agree that the Dean campaign does have a definite grassroots feel. I wonder if a more efficient use of the internet--and I don't know that Dean's use is inefficient--would take that away. It seems to me that part of Dean's success is due to his appealing to types of voters who have never been enfranchised in this way. I think this contrast to "traditional" campaigns may be part of his early success. Do you lose that if more traditional players, with more traditional organizations, try to jump in and use the internet as well?

07-14-2003, 09:27 PM	#7
tucker342 Pro Starter Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Iowa City, IA	That's a very good point Ksyrup. If college students did vote, the political landscape would be so much different, to bad they don't....

07-14-2003, 09:32 PM	#9
Anrhydeddu Resident Curmudgeon Join Date: Oct 2002	It (internet grassroots) won't make a bit of difference. 1) He's too much of a left-wing extremist, from New England as well and 2) TV is still where everything will be at.

07-15-2003, 09:23 AM	#11
QuikSand lolzcat Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Annapolis, Md	I'm not sure that the net-roots strategy has any legs long term, but it certainly has played a major role in seeing Dean jump from "one of the other ones" on the long list of Democratic hopefuls to being consistently considered among the top three. Since the primary system is, in large part, still about "big mo" - it's tough to argue that this strategy doesn't help. I don't necessarily think that this device helps him win the later primaries-- but if he continues on his current path he'll do respectably well in the Iowa Caucuses, and then pretty well in New Hampshire. It's certainly possible that the field gets narrowed to three or four after that point... and who originally thought that Dean would be one who made it that far? And once he gets past the "seven dwarves" stage and can become a legitimate threat for the nomination, he will have to be able to give effective stump speeches and do worthwhile television. I agree that both of those are more important than the net presence... but you've got to get the invitation before you get to dance.

07-15-2003, 11:44 AM	#12
IMetTrentGreen College Prospect Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Austin, Texas	his strategy has made him a lot of money so far. i've got a friend who works for eddie rodriguez, who is also part of dean's campaign. he says the money he makes now will be put to use when the time come in more mainstream media i still don't think he'll win, but i do think he's the best choice

07-15-2003, 12:09 PM	#13
clintl College Starter Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Davis, CA	I think Dean's strategy has been brilliant so far, and I've enjoyed his campaign so far. He has real potential to be the kind of candidate that Gary Hart was in 1984, and John McCain was in 2000. Unfortunately for Dean, neither of those two won their party's nomination. I have some concerns about him as a potential nominee, but I'm keeping an open mind about him.

07-15-2003, 04:20 PM	#15
Senator FOFC's Elected Representative Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The stars at night; are big and bright	Good points vtub, as usual. I think my views are best summed up by Quiksand here, as I am sure just thrills him to no end. __________________ "i have seen chris simms play 4-5 times in the pros and he's very clearly got it. he won't make a pro bowl this year, but it'll come. if you don't like me saying that, so be it, but its true. we'll just have to wait until then" imettrentgreen "looking at only ten games, and oddly using a median only, leaves me unmoved generally" - Quiksand

07-15-2003, 05:44 PM	#16
timmynausea College Starter Join Date: Dec 2002	Yeah, I'd say Dean is now basically the front-runner, largely because of his approach to both the internet and rhetoric, which is offering essentially the opposite of the long-time republican tactic of "anti-politics." Trying to make people that feel left-out feel empowered and capable, instead of encouraging everyone to blame all problems on the government being involved. I guess the interesting thing is that Dean has presented himself as very liberal early, when his record as a governor is extremely moderate (balanced budget, cut taxes for business, pro death penalty). I think Dean's plan, though, was to present himself as a total and real opposition to Bush, something that people like Leiberman, Kerry and etc. have been afraid to do very completely, and even if they do, they voted with him on basically every major issue since sept. 11. If Dean carries the early momentum and manages to win the nomination it'll be interesting to see what happens. If he can continue to make people feel empowered and really interest the common people in politics and examining the issues, I think Bush could be in trouble.

07-15-2003, 06:21 PM	#19
ISiddiqui Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Decatur, GA	I've seen too many candidates get HOT early and then sputter out. I remember all the talk around Phil Gramm in 1996, IIRC, when he raised $20 million... but then didn't even make it to the New Hampshire primary. These, what I like to call, 'renegade' primary runners don't usually make it all the way. The 'established' runners are the ones that do so. And, of course, right now, Dean is peaking because of his war stance. There are other issues where he is much more conservative, which might hurt him in the primaries. For instance he is opposed to gun control and he is pro-death penalty. The latter issue may not hurt him nearly as badly as the former one. __________________ "A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams

07-15-2003, 06:37 PM	#20
albionmoonlight Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: North Carolina	Bush has so much money right now, its crazy. He has raised more $$ than all of the dems combined. I'm not saying that it is a lead pipe lock that Bush will win the presidency (hey, even the Yankees lose sometimes), but I would not be worrying too much right now if I were a Republician. (Also--the Dems still have their heads up their asses. 2 weeks ago, there were three major "campaign" issues as I saw them (ignoring the omnipresent "international situation"): The sodomy case, the affirmative action case, and health care for seniors. To me, on two of those issues, the dems. had an opportunity to gain some momentum--they could talk about how Bush's tax cut is putting a squeeze on seniors, or they could talk about how they support a government that cannot impose its personal beliefs in the bedroom--and challenge Bush to respond on each point. Instead, what little talk I saw from them was vague support of affirmative action--a policy which (agree with it or not) would seem to have the least support from moderate Americans. I could be wrong, but I see the "typical" American as someone who would like to be able to receive occasional oral sex from his wife without being branded a felon, who does not want to spend old age in poverty because of an accident of poor health, and who believes that his kids should get into good schools if they have the best grades, no matter their race. The dems. do not agree with me.)

07-15-2003, 06:40 PM	#21
Buzzbee College Starter Join Date: Jun 2002	I haven't followed the campaign at all, but based on the descriptions here, it sounds like he might be taking a page out of Clinton's book. Anyone remember the former president playing saxophone o MTV? As Ksyrup said, young people do not generally turn out in droves to vote. However, if by using the internet to reach college age and early twenty-somethings Dean is able to get them to turn out, it is in his and the Democrat's favor. College students tend to be liberal, so reaching out to them on their own turf might get a few more out to the polls. So, it's not a matter of converting them, they are typically already liberal/democratic. It is just a matter of getting them to turn out. __________________ Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it. - Lou Holtz

07-15-2003, 07:00 PM	#22
ISiddiqui Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Decatur, GA	That normally does not happen. Nader reached out to the college kids as well... he got 3% of the total vote. __________________ "A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams

07-15-2003, 07:52 PM	#24
ISiddiqui Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Decatur, GA	But the fact is that 3% wasn't anywhere NEAR winning. Basically, a candidacy that is dedicated to those youngsters (which it kinda seemed the Nader campaign was) isn't going to go far. Dean needs to hit the middle class vote if he is going to have any shot. __________________ "A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams

07-15-2003, 07:57 PM	#25
Senator FOFC's Elected Representative Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The stars at night; are big and bright	ISiddiqui, Good call on the Phil Gramm angle. I had a part in that debacle. __________________ "i have seen chris simms play 4-5 times in the pros and he's very clearly got it. he won't make a pro bowl this year, but it'll come. if you don't like me saying that, so be it, but its true. we'll just have to wait until then" imettrentgreen "looking at only ten games, and oddly using a median only, leaves me unmoved generally" - Quiksand

07-29-2003, 12:32 AM	#26
digamma Torchbearer Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: On Lake Harriet	A couple of potentially noteworthy items I saw today in this regard: 1. Dean raised $500k over the weekend in an effort to match Bush & Cheney's one day fundraising total from "large special interests." Dean's goal was $250k. 2. One of Dean's successful tactics has been the use of Meetup.com. John Kerry is now using Meetup and has "Meetup for Kerry." Dean has approximately 66,000 signed up for his Meet-ups. Kerry has approximately 8,000 as of today. As some polls now have Dean leading in New Hampshire and running second in Vermont, he may be closer to getting that invitation to the ball Quiksand referred to above. He still may be peaking to early, but it is interesting to watch.

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