Typical Lebron choke at the buzzer

[amdaily]

Need I say more? The man is as non-clutch as they come. With the Cavs or not, he'll never be on a championship team.

[stevew]

So, I guess scoring the final 6 points in OT doesnt matter? Cavs Win, Cavs Win.

[Danny]

Are you drunk amdaily?

[JPhillips]

Please see last year's playoffs. He killed the Wizards.

[ice4277]

Ping: WrongWay

[kcchief19]

Ping: First seven years of Michael Jordan's career

[Logan]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

Yes, he threw Gilbert Arenas out of bounds on a rebound attempt with no call and then *illegally* approached the shooter in the free throw circle and got away with it. Add in 3-4 obvious charges that went uncalled and "he" killed the Wizards.

I'll count them, but only because they were so obvious.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by amdaily

Need I say more? The man is as non-clutch as they come. With the Cavs or not, he'll never been on a championship team.

How do you feel about Michelle Wie?

[larrymcg421]

I saw this thread last night and seriously thought it was a joke.

[Mateo]

I refuse to call him "king" of anything until he hoists up the golden ashtray

[Butter]

Not a bad road trip for the Cavs, all things considered. LeBron is what, 21? Give the guy some freaking slack. It will come. It may not even come to him in Cleveland, but it will come.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Not a bad road trip for the Cavs, all things considered. LeBron is what, 21? Give the guy some freaking slack. It will come. It may not even come to him in Cleveland, but it will come.

I thought it was a horrid road trip, considering the teams they lost too. Smacked around by portland, nobody should lose to the Sonics either. And Bron had to hulk up to beat Golden State.

[Butter]

Considering their past history on West Coast road trips, it wasn't bad.

I didn't say it was great, did I?

[amdaily]

*yawn*

[stevew]

I'll agree this time. He fucking sucked tonight, and should not have played. And Mike Brown is clueless, if he's going to allow Wade to run the same fucking play 15 times in a row, and not try to stop it. Losses like these, Bron turning into LeBrick from the FT line, piss me off.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by ice4277

Ping: WrongWay

LAWL

[stevew]

Man, 2 LeBricks in the final 10 seconds. Ah well, sometimes a loss isn't that painful. Especially if you don't have to watch Larry Hughes play.

[Groundhog]

Oh man, it became a close game? I switched it off midway through the 2nd Q when Dallas was spanking them and Cleveland looked clueless.

It was a pretty good 1st Q though, until that lapse near the end of the quarter. But man, sometimes LeBron gets a little too excited after a big play and then just turns in to a liability with some of the dumb shots he takes the next couple of times down the court. He threw down that monster slam over Diop where he had to adjust the ball and bring it back for the 2-hander, then the next couple of times down the court he throws up an air-ball, a brick, and an pretty ordinairy layup that is cleaned up by Varejo.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Oh man, it became a close game? I switched it off midway through the 2nd Q when Dallas was spanking them and Cleveland looked clueless.

It was a pretty good 1st Q though, until that lapse near the end of the quarter. But man, sometimes LeBron gets a little too excited after a big play and then just turns in to a liability with some of the dumb shots he takes the next couple of times down the court. He threw down that monster slam over Diop where he had to adjust the ball and bring it back for the 2-hander, then the next couple of times down the court he throws up an air-ball, a brick, and an pretty ordinairy layup that is cleaned up by Varejo.

Yeah, it was a pretty exciting game. I shouldn't complain about the bricked threes, since he was the only reason they didn't lose by like 25. Typical Mike Brown puzzling rotations....Snow in when we're down by 7-9. Dude can't finish. Lots of clean look 3s that didn't stay down. A few calls that we kind of got jobbed on towards the end. All in all, I think he's turning the corner. 2 bricked FT's and 2 missed 3's in the final minute. I think that he hit the camera crew pretty damn hard beforehand though.

[Groundhog]

How was Shannon Brown? Looking at the box score it looks like he had his first decent game of the season in limited minutes. I was hoping he'd be a semi-impact player after what looked like a potential steal at our draft position, but it looks like he's some ways off.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

How was Shannon Brown? Looking at the box score it looks like he had his first decent game of the season in limited minutes. I was hoping he'd be a semi-impact player after what looked like a potential steal at our draft position, but it looks like he's some ways off.

Eh, He made a decent play when I saw him in there, but I don't know. He needs more run instead of David Wesley, at least. I think he will start getting decent minutes from here out.

[RGunner]

I dont watch Lebron play alot, so i dont know...is he a good 3 point shooter? I think that I would rather have someone other than him shooting a 3 to tie at the end of the game, regardless of whether hes my best player or not, I dont think hes that good of a 3 point shooter

[stevew]

Originally Posted by RGunner

I dont watch Lebron play alot, so i dont know...is he a good 3 point shooter? I think that I would rather have someone other than him shooting a 3 to tie at the end of the game, regardless of whether hes my best player or not, I dont think hes that good of a 3 point shooter

I would rather have someone else shooting a three than him too, but the other guys were bricking them at an alarming rate all night. He's probably an "average" at best 3 point shooter. A quick check indicates that he's about a 33% shooter from 3. Which i believe is about at the range where you either want to get better, or stop shooting them altogether.

[watravaler]

He certainly hasn't improved as a player this season. Hopefully the king spends some time on his game this summer and hasn't peaked too early in his career.

[Groundhog]

He needs a supporting cast more than anything. I think any player would get frustrated if they need to score 50% of the teams points for them to have a chance.

Having said that, the coach deserves plenty of blame too. The Cavs have some guys who should be better scorers than they are, but for a variety of reasons the team's offense stinks more often than not.

[RGunner]

Originally Posted by stevew

I would rather have someone else shooting a three than him too, but the other guys were bricking them at an alarming rate all night. He's probably an "average" at best 3 point shooter. A quick check indicates that he's about a 33% shooter from 3. Which i believe is about at the range where you either want to get better, or stop shooting them altogether.

thats what I thought, although I heard they had Daniel Gibson in there at that time who is something like a 45%+ 3 point shooter this year....Lebron's dunk in the first quarter was pretty rediculous too, he played a very good game, just has NOBODY on his team to help him, if they get him at least a good point guard and another scorer they would be pretty damn good

[Ragone]

I think if the cavs had pulled the trigger and gotten iverson.. man

[dolfin]

Lebron absolutely needs a better supporting cast. Did you see Wesley get stuffed by the rim!

[Noop]

Man he should have gone to college where he atleast could have felt the pressure of a conference tourney and March Madness.

[TroyF]

33% is solid from three point land. Take 100 shots and you have 99 points. Take 100 two point shots and make 50% and you have 100. Add in the fact that you get more long rebounds off of three and you are fine.

The troubling thing to me about Bron is how all of his numbers are decreasing. His FT percentage is now approaching critical mass. He only hit on 61% last month and has a nice 8-16 start this month. That's a lack of concentration and has nothing to do with his teammates. His rebound, assist, and steal numbers are dropping as well. (and have every year after the second year breakout)

I took a lot of heat a couple of years ago when I ripped him after a Nuggets game. During the closing minutes of that game, there were some bizzare decisions by Lebron. Melo torched a poor Cavs player while Lebron was in the corner D'ing up against a Nugget who wouldn't touch the ball in a clutch situation in 3 million years. Melo demanded to be put on Bron on the other side and was.

Bron got the ball, beat Melo and had a wide open three attempt. He decided to drive instead and ended up kicking it to a covered Vucovic with the game in the balance. I thought that a star player should have been in a more critical role defensively and that there was no excuse for your best player not to take that wide open shot with the game on the line.

I think the guy is an incredible player and I think he can develop the last minute game without a ton of trouble. And I'd much rather have him taking the threes than passing it there, so I think he's got that down better. But I'm not sure why the other numbers are sliding. It's a bit troubling.

[amdaily]

*ahem ahem*

We deserve to lose this game after that play

[Atocep]

Lebron has played better as of late. I think its obvious his toe injury was affecting him quite a bit. His free throws have recovered and his explosiveness to the basket has returned. The one thing I don't like about his game at this stage is he's always settling for jump shots at the end of games instead of taking the ball to the basket. The guy can get to the basket any time he wants, its like he's trying to be MJ toward the end of his career and win games with 18 foot jumpers.

Something I see with the Cavs is, outside of Lebron, the team has the basketball IQ of a 2nd grader. Lebron ended up shooting a fade away 3 at the end of regulation because Drew Gooden failed to react to the double team Lebron got. He just stood there. Larry Hughes has never been a smart player, he gets by on god given talent. Lebron doesn't need all stars around him, he needs some guys that know how to play basketball. And probably a coach that can actually play to the team's strengths, too.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

Yes, he threw Gilbert Arenas out of bounds on a rebound attempt with no call and then *illegally* approached the shooter in the free throw circle and got away with it. Add in 3-4 obvious charges that went uncalled and "he" killed the Wizards.

Ping: Michael Jordan's entire career

[Leonidas]

And while we're at it, what about that Manning guy in Indianapolis. I mean, it took him what, nine, ten years to win a title. The guy is an all-time choker. And don't get me started on Elway. The slacker was nothing without Davis. And what about Julius Erving or Karl Malone. Erving couldn't win a title until he was a pro for over 10 years. The guy sucked. And Malone, most overrated player of all time, never won a title.

I just can't believe the ludicrous criticism Lebron takes. What is he, 21, 22? Jordan was labled a choker for quite a long time before Phil Jackson came along and gave him a winng strategy to work with. I suppose when Greg Oden goes pro he'll be a choker if he doesn't win a title in his first season.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Leonidas

And while we're at it, what about that Manning guy in Indianapolis. I mean, it took him what, nine, ten years to win a title. The guy is an all-time choker. And don't get me started on Elway. The slacker was nothing without Davis. And what about Julius Erving or Karl Malone. Erving couldn't win a title until he was a pro for over 10 years. The guy sucked. And Malone, most overrated player of all time, never won a title.

I just can't believe the ludicrous criticism Lebron takes. What is he, 21, 22? Jordan was labled a choker for quite a long time before Phil Jackson came along and gave him a winng strategy to work with. I suppose when Greg Oden goes pro he'll be a choker if he doesn't win a title in his first season.

There are some flaws with your post. I agree with the gist of the post. Yes, Bron has plenty of time to win titles, MVP awards and all the rest. He's a 22 year old kid with incredible upside. He's going to go down as one of the top 10 players in the history of the league in all likelihood.

But the flaw is the people criticizing aren't doing it for a title. They are speaking of individual games and how he's playing. When I give the criticism, I'm giving it because I'm seeing some things that concern me. His numbers are down across the board and anyone who is objectively watching has seen a decline in his play this year, teammates aside.

The Lebron James I saw two years ago is a better player than the one out on the floor now. Now understand, what I'm seeing now is an all star. A terrific player. But it's not what I saw two years ago. The guy I saw two years ago got assists because he made great decisions and ran the offense to perfection. He utilized the talent around him (however sparce that was) amazingly well.

The guy I see now is getting assists (and less of them) because he's dominating the ball. he's getting assists in the same way Stephon Marbury or Gilbert Arenas gets assists, not the way he used to get them or a guy like Nash does now.

It's a disturbing trend. I expect he's going to get everything fixed and even if he doesn't, he's still a superstar. But for those who are really studying the game, there is a drop off now. Thet's not a criticism, it's a reality.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by TroyF

The Lebron James I saw two years ago is a better player than the one out on the floor now. Now understand, what I'm seeing now is an all star. A terrific player. But it's not what I saw two years ago. The guy I saw two years ago got assists because he made great decisions and ran the offense to perfection. He utilized the talent around him (however sparce that was) amazingly well.

The guy I see now is getting assists (and less of them) because he's dominating the ball. he's getting assists in the same way Stephon Marbury or Gilbert Arenas gets assists, not the way he used to get them or a guy like Nash does now.

It's a disturbing trend. I expect he's going to get everything fixed and even if he doesn't, he's still a superstar. But for those who are really studying the game, there is a drop off now. Thet's not a criticism, it's a reality.

Over the past month and a half he's been playing at almost the same level he did last year. He's averaging 30.3 points, around 6 rebounds, and 7 assists per game. His shooting has also gone back to last season's levels, with his free throws actually better.

I think you underestimate the affect his toe injury had on his game, how bad his teammates are at playing basketball, and how bad his coach is at putting Lebron in situations to succeed.

[Leonidas]

Originally Posted by TroyF

There are some flaws with your post. I agree with the gist of the post. Yes, Bron has plenty of time to win titles, MVP awards and all the rest. He's a 22 year old kid with incredible upside. He's going to go down as one of the top 10 players in the history of the league in all likelihood.

But the flaw is the people criticizing aren't doing it for a title. They are speaking of individual games and how he's playing. When I give the criticism, I'm giving it because I'm seeing some things that concern me. His numbers are down across the board and anyone who is objectively watching has seen a decline in his play this year, teammates aside.

The Lebron James I saw two years ago is a better player than the one out on the floor now. Now understand, what I'm seeing now is an all star. A terrific player. But it's not what I saw two years ago. The guy I saw two years ago got assists because he made great decisions and ran the offense to perfection. He utilized the talent around him (however sparce that was) amazingly well.

The guy I see now is getting assists (and less of them) because he's dominating the ball. he's getting assists in the same way Stephon Marbury or Gilbert Arenas gets assists, not the way he used to get them or a guy like Nash does now.

It's a disturbing trend. I expect he's going to get everything fixed and even if he doesn't, he's still a superstar. But for those who are really studying the game, there is a drop off now. Thet's not a criticism, it's a reality.

Shall I point out all the people in this thread critiquing Lebron because he hasn't won a title?

amdaily said: "With the Cavs or not, he'll never be on a championship team."

mateo said: " I refuse to call him "king" of anything until he hoists up the golden ashtray", I'm going to assume that's some sort of championship reference

noop said: "Man he should have gone to college where he atleast could have felt the pressure of a conference tourney and March Madness." how many NCAA tourney runs did Kobe Bryant have?

Has he had problems this year? I suppose so. Is the team likely to win more games than last year? Maybe, but they will be pretty close.

Has Lebron won more games in his first three seasons in the NBA than Michael Jordan did. Yes, 127 to 108.

Did Lebron get any rest this summer because of team USA committments? No.

I hope the fans in Cleveland aren't saying this kind of crap. If they are then they don't deserve him.

[BrianD]

Interesting to see the Bron/Jordan comparisons in terms of last-second shots.

"I have missed more than 9,000 shots in my career. I have lost almost 300 games. On 26 occasions I have been entrusted to take the game winning shot, and I missed. And I have failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is precisely why I succeed." -- Michael Jordan

[LionsFan10]

Originally Posted by BrianD

Interesting to see the Bron/Jordan comparisons in terms of last-second shots.

"I have missed more than 9,000 shots in my career. I have lost almost 300 games. On 26 occasions I have been entrusted to take the game winning shot, and I missed. And I have failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is precisely why I succeed." -- Michael Jordan

I like that commercial ...

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Leonidas

noop said: "Man he should have gone to college where he atleast could have felt the pressure of a conference tourney and March Madness." how many NCAA tourney runs did Kobe Bryant have?

Okay one I wasn't talking about titles. Two Kobe has one his titles with Shaq and as proven by the Heats recent title I am willing to bet Shaq was the major reason why LA was so dominate. Also name me one high player who has one a NBA championship since the 90's outside of Kobe who had Shaq?

I like LeBron and I happen to think he is a great player but playing in march madness provides unreal pressure. Imagine if the NBA went to a NCAA formula where there was no series just one game either win or lose.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Over the past month and a half he's been playing at almost the same level he did last year. He's averaging 30.3 points, around 6 rebounds, and 7 assists per game. His shooting has also gone back to last season's levels, with his free throws actually better.

I think you underestimate the affect his toe injury had on his game, how bad his teammates are at playing basketball, and how bad his coach is at putting Lebron in situations to succeed.

I watched the game against the Wizards last night and saw the same player I saw earlier this year. He forced up shots, didn't attack the rim and dominated the ball on offense. The only reason an undermanned Washington was downed was because they couldn't hit FT.

James did take over down the stretch though and showed some of the things that make him such a brilliant basketball player.

The coach is a very good point and one Cleveland needs to address. Still, he's not the guy I saw a couple of years ago right now. Maybe that changes as we get through the rest of the year. I'm ok with being proven wrong.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Leonidas

Shall I point out all the people in this thread critiquing Lebron because he hasn't won a title?

amdaily said: "With the Cavs or not, he'll never be on a championship team."

mateo said: " I refuse to call him "king" of anything until he hoists up the golden ashtray", I'm going to assume that's some sort of championship reference

noop said: "Man he should have gone to college where he atleast could have felt the pressure of a conference tourney and March Madness." how many NCAA tourney runs did Kobe Bryant have?

Has he had problems this year? I suppose so. Is the team likely to win more games than last year? Maybe, but they will be pretty close.

Has Lebron won more games in his first three seasons in the NBA than Michael Jordan did. Yes, 127 to 108.

Did Lebron get any rest this summer because of team USA committments? No.

I hope the fans in Cleveland aren't saying this kind of crap. If they are then they don't deserve him.

As for the people who mentioned championships, I think they are overexpecting. It's not a reality.

As for the rest. . .


They can only tie the number of wins from last year if they win out. This is in a pretty bad conference with Miami flailing away for most of the year. By anyones assessment, the regular season is a dissapointment.

A lot of guys have come to struggling franchises and won more games than Jordan did their first three years. Carmelo won 136 games in his first three years in a tougher conference and a team that hadn't been to the playofs in a decade. I don't point out the stat to show how great Melo is to Bron. I point out that stat to show that it's essentially meaningless. The turnaround proves he's a great player. We all know that by now. (just as anyone who isn't a moron realizes Melo is a great player) But the flat out win totals are irrelevant. Just because Melo and Bron won more games than Jordan in their first three years does not mean they are going to have a better career. (by the way, both James and Melo will have more wins at the end of their fourth year than Jordan did and will likely finish ahead after year five as well, as Jordan won 47 games his 5th season, a number both the Nuggets and Cavs are likely to eclipse next season)

There were a lot of players who played in the World Championships. This includes the guy who is going to win the MVP this year (Dirk) and a slew of other players who have had great years. (Bosh, Melo, Hinrich, Joe Johnson, Linas Kleiza, Diaw, Ginobili, Obero, and Nocioni to name just a handful) Yes, I'm sure it wore him down a bit, but it wore everyone else down the same.

Besides. . . if you are making excuses for why there is a dropoff, it just affirms there is a dropoff, right? That's an observation and an accurate one. I'm not LBJ bashing because I happen to point it out. You don't need to defend him to the death. It's ok, really. He's a terrific player and I'm sure it's a blip and nothing more. Noticing and pointing out the blip isn't out of line or being over critical. To each his own. . .

[stevew]

In short, basically LeBron would rather hang out at strip clubs with Donyell Marshall, Damon Jones and Larry Hughes til 4am than worry about regular season basketball. There is a deep rooted problem in the cavs roster and coaching staff, basically the players that they have are extremely limited, and their coaching staff does not have control of the team. Perhaps they could put it together and win 16 playoff games and the title this year, but I'm not holding my breath.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by TroyF

The coach is a very good point and one Cleveland needs to address. Still, he's not the guy I saw a couple of years ago right now. Maybe that changes as we get through the rest of the year. I'm ok with being proven wrong.

He can have Phil Jackson. As good as the triangle is, the Lakers need to adjust their strategy to the personel that they have.

[TroyF]

I'm not a Cavs fan per say (don't like em, don't hate em), but I'd be willing to bet there are a ton of Cavs fans out there that would love to have him.

[stevew]

Dude, at this point any coach would be an upgrade. I guess I shouldn't be so negative on the team, there have been some guys emerge this year. Daniel Gibson was playing great before he got injured, basically getting anything out of a 2nd round pick is a bonus. Sasha Pavlovic has shown that he's an NBA caliber starter. If the cavs don't resign him this summer, I think that he's the type of guy that could come out of nowhere next year, maybe put up like 16ppg. Anderson Verejao is like my favoritist player in the world, although his minutes and production are inconsistent. I'd much rather see him start over Gooden, but that won't happen. If they cut down on flopping next year, I think it could hurt him. Guy has a knack for getting position, but even i'll admit he's the biggest flopper this side of Vlade Divac and Manu.

Larry Hughes, on the other hand, can kiss my ass. He has a 2 million dollar bonus if they win 49 games this year, and honestly I hope they don't get there. I know it's petty and shit, but he doesn't need anymore pocket change for strippers. I hope to god he's on the first thing smoking out of Cleveland this summer. Too bad Joe Johnson wasn't available to us that summer, cause with him I think they'd be nearly at championship level.

[kingfc22]

CLANK!!!

[Leonidas]

Originally Posted by TroyF

As for the people who mentioned championships, I think they are overexpecting. It's not a reality.

As for the rest. . .


They can only tie the number of wins from last year if they win out. This is in a pretty bad conference with Miami flailing away for most of the year. By anyones assessment, the regular season is a dissapointment.

A lot of guys have come to struggling franchises and won more games than Jordan did their first three years. Carmelo won 136 games in his first three years in a tougher conference and a team that hadn't been to the playofs in a decade. I don't point out the stat to show how great Melo is to Bron. I point out that stat to show that it's essentially meaningless. The turnaround proves he's a great player. We all know that by now. (just as anyone who isn't a moron realizes Melo is a great player) But the flat out win totals are irrelevant. Just because Melo and Bron won more games than Jordan in their first three years does not mean they are going to have a better career. (by the way, both James and Melo will have more wins at the end of their fourth year than Jordan did and will likely finish ahead after year five as well, as Jordan won 47 games his 5th season, a number both the Nuggets and Cavs are likely to eclipse next season)

There were a lot of players who played in the World Championships. This includes the guy who is going to win the MVP this year (Dirk) and a slew of other players who have had great years. (Bosh, Melo, Hinrich, Joe Johnson, Linas Kleiza, Diaw, Ginobili, Obero, and Nocioni to name just a handful) Yes, I'm sure it wore him down a bit, but it wore everyone else down the same.

Besides. . . if you are making excuses for why there is a dropoff, it just affirms there is a dropoff, right? That's an observation and an accurate one. I'm not LBJ bashing because I happen to point it out. You don't need to defend him to the death. It's ok, really. He's a terrific player and I'm sure it's a blip and nothing more. Noticing and pointing out the blip isn't out of line or being over critical. To each his own. . .

You are reading way too much into my post. My point is the criticism of Lebron not winning big games at the buzzer, and therefore certain posters labelling him a choker at age 22 is ludicrous. I only posted those numbers up there to demonstrate that at one time the guy considered the greatest clutch player ever was also labelled a choker by his critics at an even more mature age than Lebron. About the only excuse I'm making for Lebron is the fact he has had no real time off in two seasons and he is far and away the youngest guy out of those you mentioned above. I stand by that as a legit problem for him to deal with that few players have had, certainly none as young as him and none who play as many minutes per NBA game as him.

If you want to delve further I think Terry Pluto has some very good questions for coach Mike Brown here: http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/sports/...o/17046907.htm

I also think Pluto stands up very well for Lebron when he says the following:

In the past three seasons, James has averaged 42.4, 42.5 and 41.2 minutes. While the 41.2 average this season is the lowest, he still is on the court too much. Since the All-Star break, James is averaging 30.6 points, 6.7 rebounds, 6.4 assists, shooting 49 percent from the field and 73 percent from the foul line. His recent late-game failures should not detract from the fact that he's been brilliant the past two months.

If whatever team you root for were offered Lebron please tell me here and now you would wish them to get somebody else. Short of some guy named Kobe I can't think of another player in the league I'd rather build a team around.

[amdaily]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

CLANK!!!

Just got home to post that