The Trump Presidency – 2016

[molson]

I think this is one of the reasons some people were uncomfortable with Kaepernick's protests. In a free country, there is so much social and cultural competition for symbols. So people resist perceived threats to reappropriate a symbol. The protesters very much tried to reappropriate the pregame anthem and flag symbol.

It's all fair game in a free country. Instead of laws and rules we mostly have social pressure and then a battle for this threshold where a symbol is perceived as having some meaning regardless of how someone actually values the symbol. And being accused of being racist or far-right is a powerful motivator to conform to the new reappropriated meanings of symbols. The protests mostly died down, but if they were more successful, I could see social pressure to participate, even if standing for the flag meant something different for you than it would have for the protesters. You really don't have to dig to deep to find expressions that the flag and anthem themselves are racists symbols, and that standing and respecting them thus problematic. Kaepernick's original statements about the protest bumped up against that idea.

What if you value the Betsy Ross flag for positive reasons, but over time, you're perceived as a racist if you display it? Do you fight for your version of the symbol? I guess it depends on how important the symbol is to you. I think it's generally better to just let those values and symbols go (like how it's better to just stop using certain terms or manner of speaking that were common decades ago that we now recognize to be racially charged - it's just not that important to cling to those things.) But I understand how some people resist even those things. And how frustrating it is when that resistance is perceived as racism.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by molson

What if you value the Betsy Ross flag for positive reasons, but over time, you're perceived as a racist if you display it?

It's kind of like the creator of Pepe the Frog. He had no role in how his creation became racist and tried to reclaim it. But unfortunately it had become so far gone, that he realized reclaiming it simply wasn't a good idea.

Unfortunately a bunch of white supremicist groups have claimed the Betsy Ross flag. I can easily imagine that big corporations may want to go very out of their way to make sure they can't even be linked to that activity.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Ugh, can we not do this? Nike Nixes ‘Betsy Ross Flag’ Sneaker After Colin Kaepernick Intervenes - WSJ

That flag flies outside my parents house, which was part of the underground railroad in a town known for abolitionist activism. I don't care if there are idiots misappropriating it, it's not a white power or pro-slavery symbol, and trying to say that that whole era should not be celebrated in spite of some people having some faults is just dumb.

According to Kap:
Betsy Ross = Bad
Che Guevara = Good

It's this kind of lunacy from the left that drives me to vote third party.

[JPhillips]

No.

Agree or disagree, that's not what this is about. It has nothing to do with Betsy Ross.

[NobodyHere]

It has to do with Kap hating the American flag

[ISiddiqui]

via GIPHY

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

It has to do with Kap hating the American flag

And even if that were true, it still has nothing to do with Betsy Ross.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

No.

Agree or disagree, that's not what this is about. It has nothing to do with Betsy Ross.

It's up to the most influential voices what symbols mean. If they're influential enough they can decide what a symbol means for everybody else.

And it helps to be on the far right or left to be influential. White supremacists, and then people reacting to them, can reappropriate pretty much any symbol they want. The non-influential people in the middle just have to try to keep up with the symbol definitions. Which isn't that difficult or big of a sacrifice, as its usually relatively obscure symbols that are reappropriated. But when it's the pregame anthem/flag symbol....

Edit: But if it WAS about Betsy Ross to someone, or anything else not related to white supremacy, it no longer is. A more influential cultural voice has decided that for you. If BishopMVP's parents continue to fly that flag, they will be perceived as racists, even if that's not what the flag has ever been to them, and even if that didn't make them racist a short time ago. Again, probably not a huge deal, but when more iconic symbols are challenged people get nervous and resist them, even though that resistance opens them up to being labeled as racists. Others will be happy to abandon any symbol because that threat of accusation is so grave balanced against how relatively unimportant the symbol is to them.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

And even if that were true, it still has nothing to do with Betsy Ross.

We're gonna have to agree to disagree here.

[thesloppy]

It's Stephen Baldwin's opinion that drives my vote.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

According to Kap:
Betsy Ross = Bad
Che Guevara = Good

It's this kind of lunacy from the left that drives me to vote third party.

I don't think he is running.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by molson

It's up to the most influential voices what symbols mean. If they're influential enough they can decide what a symbol means for everybody else.

And it helps to be on the far right or left to be influential. White supremacists, and then people reacting to them, can reappropriate pretty much any symbol they want. The non-influential people in the middle just have to try to keep up with the symbol definitions. Which isn't that difficult or big of a sacrifice, as its usually relatively obscure symbols that are reappropriated. But when it's the pregame anthem/flag symbol....

Edit: But if it WAS about Betsy Ross to someone, or anything else not related to white supremacy, it no longer is. A more influential cultural voice has decided that for you. If BishopMVP's parents continue to fly that flag, they will be perceived as racists, even if that's not what the flag has ever been to them, and even if that didn't make them racist a short time ago. Again, probably not a huge deal, but when more iconic symbols are challenged people get nervous and resist them, even though that resistance opens them up to being labeled as racists. Others will be happy to abandon any symbol because that threat of accusation is so grave balanced against how relatively unimportant the symbol is to them.

If it were my decision, I think the right answer would be to release what you want and if it becomes a controversy speak out against the controversy and try to reclaim the symbol.

But, I understand why a corporation wouldn't want to be seen as the supplier of the Proud Boys or the official shoe of VDare. Reclaiming symbols for the good of the polis isn't really in the business plan for corporations.

What would help is a bipartisan message that encourages Nike to release the shoe while also recognizing the way the flag has been co-opted by racists. But very few prominent people on either side would be willing to stand up for those principles.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

We're gonna have to agree to disagree here.

Kap overheard on an open mic at the Flag Haters Ball: "FUUUUUCK that Betsy Ross bitch!"

If this were really about Betsy Ross, I'd find it much more interesting.

[Thomkal]

DOJ alerts groups that sued over the citizenship question on the Census that the question will not appear on the Census

[miami_fan]

Can't we just ask the Proud Boys not to misappropriate the Betsy Ross flag? Surely they will see the error of their ways and stop using it as their symbol.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Can't we just ask the Proud Boys not to misappropriate the Betsy Ross flag? Surely they will see the error of their ways and stop using it as their symbol.

I mean, that's what bullies do, right? We let them take what was for everyone, and because of how they misuse it, it can no longer be for everyone. When we fight back, we hear freedom of speech, and we hear party of 'inclusion' who wants to shut people up, and we hear all the reasons why we can't stop them. So then we stop using that symbol and it turns into something that was good, and no isn't, which was the entire goal in the first place. Rinse, repeat.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

It's this kind of lunacy from the left that drives me to vote third party.

That... seems insane to me? Nike isn't a political party. Some people choose to listen to celebrities, hopefully most don't. Why in the world would Nike making a decision around $$ and/or one of its sponsors change your vote?

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Radii

That... seems insane to me? Nike isn't a political party. Some people choose to listen to celebrities, hopefully most don't. Why in the world would Nike making a decision around $$ and/or one of its sponsors change your vote?

Curious about this as well, this thinking helped give us the last 3 years

[PilotMan]

I think it's amazing that the same person (not here, just in general) can revere someone like Ali or Jim Brown, yet rail against any modern day player doing the same things they did (albeit without the career; but to be fair, that's all history at this point).



Does that make OJ or Tiger better?

[RainMaker]

Everything somehow became political. Nike is a shoe company and this is nothing more than a marketing decision.

[Radii]

I hate the media for propping up the opinions of rich people in Hollywood who have no concept of how life outside of their extremely fucked up bubble works - that's a both side things. Fox loves to latch on to James Woods and we all know about Ted Nugent, but its equally stupid to pretend that the liberal folks in hollywood are offering anything of value politically that's worth media coverage.

I also totally dislike Boston sports teams - all of them - based on my stereotypes and biases, combined with my interactions with a small number of boston fans who reveled in those stereotypes in a way that just made me despise them. But you know what? It's really petty for me to do that. If my sports fandom mattered in *any* way that would be an awful way to pick a team.

But isn't that exactly what's happening if someone decides to vote for a different person or party not based on any sort of policy or the changes to our lives based on that leadership - but based on being annoyed about how some rich people and/or corporations choose to handle their own politics and how people cover them?

Again... completely freaking insane.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Radii

I hate the media for propping up the opinions of rich people in Hollywood who have no concept of how life outside of their extremely fucked up bubble works - that's a both side things. Fox loves to latch on to James Woods and we all know about Ted Nugent, but its equally stupid to pretend that the liberal folks in hollywood are offering anything of value politically that's worth media coverage.

I also totally dislike Boston sports teams - all of them - based on my stereotypes and biases, combined with my interactions with a small number of boston fans who reveled in those stereotypes in a way that just made me despise them. But you know what? It's really petty for me to do that. If my sports fandom mattered in *any* way that would be an awful way to pick a team.

But isn't that exactly what's happening if someone decides to vote for a different person or party not based on any sort of policy or the changes to our lives based on that leadership - but based on being annoyed about how some rich people and/or corporations choose to handle their own politics and how people cover them?

Again... completely freaking insane.

I agree.

Boston fans suck.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Radii

Nike isn't a political party. Some people choose to listen to celebrities, hopefully most don't. Why in the world would Nike making a decision around $$ and/or one of its sponsors change your vote?

I'll say you are both right and wrong here. How's that for straddling the issue?

Rightly or wrongly, these things get viewed as being bigger than Nike. Call it symbols or cultural watchwords or what-have-you, but - while he can surely correct me if I'm wrong - I doubt very much that NobodyHere was talking just specifically and soley about one business decision - particularly since he wasn't replying directly to the Nike thing anyway. It's representative of political correctness, i.e. the stuff Bill Maher talks about as a major part of his schtick. Or the Pie rant that made the rounds right after Trump was elected .

As a third-party guy, I'll just say that Democrats have had the chance twice in the last couple of decades to earn my vote. Kerry couldn't articulate a sensible anti-immigration policy that didn't involve basically ceding US sovereignty to Europe, and right now we have Democrats in the House stamping their feet and whining and also not doing the one thing that has any chance of reining in Trump (impeachment). In both cases it's basically a lack of the necessary political courage that qualifies one to be a national leader. Same thing that political correctness essentially boils down to - i.e., we can't tolerate some views on so-called sensitive issues because we don't have the guts to actually have a real adult conversation about them, so anyone speaking offensively must be shouted down and shamed from the public square. Nevermind if what they were saying is true, that's beside the point.

So from my point of view, I see two destructive parties. I do basically agree with the board that right now the Republicans are MORE destructive, but not by as much as most here probably think and ultimately both are bad enough that they sure as shooting aren't getting my vote. Until and unless they make the necessary changes to govern somewhat more responsibly.

[RainMaker]

It has nothing to do with political correctness. Nike is trying to be a cool company to young people. Pissing off old white conservatives has sort of been their marketing strategy for decades. 17 year old kids don't want to buy a sneaker that Mike Pence thinks is cool. They want to buy from a company giving that generation the finger.

[JPhillips]

lol

Trump's nominee for the Fed once wrote a WSJ piece arguing for open borders and a North American monetary union. Extreme vetting for the win!

[Ryche]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

DOJ alerts groups that sued over the citizenship question on the Census that the question will not appear on the Census

And now he is claiming it's fake news even though it's from his staff and they cleared it with him yesterday. Senility setting in?

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Ryche

And now he is claiming it's fake news even though it's from his staff and they cleared it with him yesterday. Senility setting in?

Just narcissism is enough to cover this i think. Just like how you can be shown a video of you saying something and ignore it/deny it with full confidence.

[Thomkal]

Major General (ret) Paul Eaton‏Verified account @PaulDEaton52

It was my great privilege to serve 7 years as a general. @realDonaldTrump says generals are thrilled with his appalling plan for Independence Day. More Trump Fiction. Generals speak softly. And carry a big stick. They never ‘thrill’. And should not stand near Trump tomorrow.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Nike is trying to be a cool company to young people. Pissing off old white conservatives has sort of been their marketing strategy for decades.

So who was it that put out all those 'Just Do It' ads featuring middle-aged distance runners, elderly people working out in the gym, etc? There's a lot of material Nike has put out there that is specifically broad-based and universalist in appeal.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Everything somehow became political. Nike is a shoe company and this is nothing more than a marketing decision.

It's a marketing decision based on a political stance.

[stevew]

I heard about shoe thing sportsdigs days ago before the Kaep part came out. I didn’t think much of it pre kaep but predictably people never disappoint

[Thomkal]

So Justin Amash has quit the Republican Party and become an independent. Can a run for President be far behind? And on the day we celebrate our independence Trump had this Patriotic tweet for him:


Donald J. Trump‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump

Great news for the Republican Party as one of the dumbest & most disloyal men in Congress is “quitting” the Party. No Collusion, No Obstruction! Knew he couldn’t get the nomination to run again in the Great State of Michigan. Already being challenged for his seat. A total loser!

[Warhammer]

I hope he joins the libertarians and I hope that his district realizes that he has not changed.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Can a run for President be far behind?

Oh my god please? Free win for the left!

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Radii

Oh my god please? Free win for the left!

I wouldn't count on it. Almost any third party candidate is going to get a chunk of the Bernie/Tulsi protest voters and maybe a chunk of the moderate voters. Personally, I'm much more comfortable with a this or that election, particularly when an incumbent election tends to be, this or change things.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I wouldn't count on it. Almost any third party candidate is going to get a chunk of the Bernie/Tulsi protest voters and maybe a chunk of the moderate voters. Personally, I'm much more comfortable with a this or that election, particularly when an incumbent election tends to be, this or change things.

You could well be right. It just seems so perfect for someone who had the balls to say that its not OK for the GOP to have become what it has to attract a huge number of disenchanted/disenfranchised republicans to settle on instead of having to vote for a democrat. Maybe I underestimate how many progressive left folks will just stay home or vote 3rd party if their guy doesn't win. I'd like to think that enough of them learned from 2016, but maybe enough of them want to just see things blow up if they can't have their way still.

[Atocep]

Trump's 4th of July speech has to be the biggest red flag of mental decline we've seen to date.

[Brian Swartz]

Sad as it is, Amash basically is done. It appears he torpedoed his political career, and I will always admire him for it. Polling in his district was quite bad for him even before he left the party - he was trailing by double-digits against expected primary opponents after he came out in favor of impeachment, and it wasn't just a temporary bump - nothing I read indicated it was moving back in his direction. Again that might have changed etc. but in the town halls he held he had a minority of enthusiastic supporters but the primary feedback from his previous supporters was the 'how dare you betray our president' stuff.

In other words, the people he represents, people I was raised with and around in that community, don't deserve a statesman like him. I particularly liked the country party chairman's line that he 'perpetrated a fraud' by getting elected (several times!) as a Republican. Apparently according to him, a True Republican (tm) just pretends to believe in things the rule of law and limited government. They aren't actually expected to vote that way. That kind of nonsense gets you kicked off Budget Committees.

A presidential run as independent would go nowhere and I'm sure he knows that. Maybe he still does it to make sure he didn't leave anything untried, did everything he could to make people aware of the problems, etc. but he's said the past a third-party run didn't interest him because basically he doesn't run to be a spoiler or anything, he runs to win. He might be changing his tune on that a bit, but I don't see it moving the needle either way.

Even though I know it won't happen, I'd pay money, a lot of it by my standards, to see Justin Amash on a debate stage with Trump and whoever the Dem nominee is. Ala Nader or Perot. I wonder if at any level the president is aware that calling Amash disloyal is a great and enduring compliment?

Yeah anyway its bittersweet for me because I believe he's done the right thing at most points during this process, but I'm going to lose one of the few people left in Congress that I respect. The real loser here is America, even though most of them don't see it yet.

[PilotMan]

Brian, we don't agree on much politically, but I do respect the tone and tenor of what he's saying. I can't say that I'd vote for him, but I at least respect him for being honest to himself and the people.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Even though I know it won't happen, I'd pay money, a lot of it by my standards, to see Justin Amash on a debate stage with Trump and whoever the Dem nominee is. Ala Nader or Perot. I wonder if at any level the president is aware that calling Amash disloyal is a great and enduring compliment?

Sadly we already saw it in 2016 with Rand Paul at the Republican debates and while Paul poked holes in Trump's complete lack of any substance Trump just responded with insults. This is America now, a modern day Perot would just be repeatedly insulted by Trump with "shocked" news networks who would run the insults over and over as opposed to the actual issues. Look back at the American public/people on FOFC/news networks with Gary Johnson and "Aleppo"... aren't we glad he wasn't at the debates and we have Trump sitting with the nuclear button?

[JPhillips]

Worth mentioning that Paul is now one of Trump's biggest defenders?

[QuikSand]

I'm also fascinated by the prospect of Amash running for President, whether as libertarian or Independent. I agree it's hard to forecast the net effect, but it does seem certain to attract a meaningful share of the goldfish president's attention (twitter rants, etc) and that's meaningful. The Trump strategy wholly relies on their ability to tear down the Dem opposition to being un-supportable... and without having a 7 year lead-in like with HRC, every erg dedicated to some side project would detract from that effort.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by panerd

This is America now, a modern day Perot would just be repeatedly insulted by Trump with "shocked" news networks who would run the insults over and over as opposed to the actual issues.

This is so spot on and the thing that pisses me off the most about it is when you point it out to his supporters they inevitably come back with "well he tells it like it is!"

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Sad as it is, Amash basically is done. It appears he torpedoed his political career, and I will always admire him for it. Polling in his district was quite bad for him even before he left the party - he was trailing by double-digits against expected primary opponents after he came out in favor of impeachment, and it wasn't just a temporary bump - nothing I read indicated it was moving back in his direction. Again that might have changed etc. but in the town halls he held he had a minority of enthusiastic supporters but the primary feedback from his previous supporters was the 'how dare you betray our president' stuff.

In other words, the people he represents, people I was raised with and around in that community, don't deserve a statesman like him. I particularly liked the country party chairman's line that he 'perpetrated a fraud' by getting elected (several times!) as a Republican. Apparently according to him, a True Republican (tm) just pretends to believe in things the rule of law and limited government. They aren't actually expected to vote that way. That kind of nonsense gets you kicked off Budget Committees.

A presidential run as independent would go nowhere and I'm sure he knows that. Maybe he still does it to make sure he didn't leave anything untried, did everything he could to make people aware of the problems, etc. but he's said the past a third-party run didn't interest him because basically he doesn't run to be a spoiler or anything, he runs to win. He might be changing his tune on that a bit, but I don't see it moving the needle either way.

Even though I know it won't happen, I'd pay money, a lot of it by my standards, to see Justin Amash on a debate stage with Trump and whoever the Dem nominee is. Ala Nader or Perot. I wonder if at any level the president is aware that calling Amash disloyal is a great and enduring compliment?

Yeah anyway its bittersweet for me because I believe he's done the right thing at most points during this process, but I'm going to lose one of the few people left in Congress that I respect. The real loser here is America, even though most of them don't see it yet.

I don't think he would have much of a chance running as an independent sure, but he's openly come out now as not Trump. There are still many more moderate/less evangelical Republicans who would vote for him over any Democrat, enough so that it might keep Trump from winning some of the states he did in 2016. Maybe that would be enough for him to do it?
A Amash/Kasich ticket perhaps?

[JPhillips]

Let's not romanticize Perot. He was a nut and a clown show. He became a thing because he was great on TV. Sound familiar?

[JPhillips]

Trump said his Teleprompter went out "right in the middle of that sentence" when he said that the Continental Army took over nonexistent airports. He added, "I guess the rain knocked out the Teleprompter...it was actually hard to look at anyway, 'cause it was rain all over."

— Daniel Dale (@ddale8) July 5, 2019

lol

Does Trump realize this excuse makes him look worse?

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Trump said his Teleprompter went out "right in the middle of that sentence" when he said that the Continental Army took over nonexistent airports. He added, "I guess the rain knocked out the Teleprompter...it was actually hard to look at anyway, 'cause it was rain all over."

— Daniel Dale (@ddale8) July 5, 2019

lol

Does Trump realize this excuse makes him look worse?

No.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Worth mentioning that Paul is now one of Trump's biggest defenders?

Yep. Wish I had a good answer for you as well. On one hand I would take Ron any day of the week over Rand but isn't Ron and in this case Amash a perfect example of what happens if you don't play ball? I mean we can agree 100% with what Amash is saying but I don't even think Nancy Pelosi or Mitch McConnel is going to get away with calling for the impeachment of the leader of their party. Rand on the other hand sits on some pretty powerful committees and still gets to bring light to the debt, endless war, and the security state. I much prefer a house of 100's of Ron Pauls but will take a few Rand Pauls and Mike Lee's over McConnel and Schumer anytime.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by panerd

we can agree 100% with what Amash is saying but I don't even think Nancy Pelosi or Mitch McConnel is going to get away with calling for the impeachment of the leader of their party.

That's true, but it wasn't always that way and doesn't have to be. I.e., the vote authorizing the committee that investigating the Nixon presidency got zero no votes. A good number chose not to vote, but nobody said 'nah we should just ignore this Watergate stuff' and that was back when it didn't at all look like his presidency would end over it. It was 74-0. By the time the actual articles of impeachment were voted out, a couple of them got significant same-party support voting in the committee, and the same was going to happen in the full House vote leading to the pressure on him to resign. So basically I think the sad reality of this just proves Amash's point.

Originally Posted by PilotMan

we don't agree on much politically, but I do respect the tone and tenor of what he's saying.

For the record, I disagree with quite a bit of Amash's policy stances as well - I just value integrity as the #1 qualification for any public servant.

Originally Posted by Thomkal

There are still many more moderate/less evangelical Republicans who would vote for him over any Democrat, enough so that it might keep Trump from winning some of the states he did in 2016. Maybe that would be enough for him to do it?
A Amash/Kasich ticket perhaps?

I think Trump has very little chance of winning those states again anyway. But if Amash/Kasich ran, I'd vote for the ticket and it would be probably the most enthusiastic presidential vote of my lifetime. Right before I put up with whatever the new Democratic president decided to do, and hopefully they'd be good enough that I would feel a lot better about them than Trump.

[Thomkal]

Jeffrey Epstein arrested on charges of sex trafficing minors:


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