Iraq: Has the inevitable Civil War begun?

[rexallllsc]

hxxp://reuters.myway.com/article/20050511/2005-05-11T143729Z_01_N11184007_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-IRAQ-DC.html

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Suicide bombs killed at least 71 people in Iraq on Wednesday, taking to nearly 400 the number of Iraqis killed in guerrilla attacks since a new government was unveiled two weeks ago.

[st.cronin]

Why is 'Civil War' capitalized and described as inevitable? I don't really know what's going on, but the NPR reporter I heard driving home today indicated all signs point to the bombers being non-Iraqi/Kurd.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Why is 'Civil War' capitalized and described as inevitable? I don't really know what's going on, but the NPR reporter I heard driving home today indicated all signs point to the bombers being non-Iraqi/Kurd.

1. You're reading too much into the capitalization

2. I think it's inevitable. I think many do. Or do you believe that democracy is going to work overnight? That various peoples who make up that country will start getting along after hundreds of years of hating each other?

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

1. You're reading too much into the capitalization

2. I think it's inevitable. I think many do. Or do you believe that democracy is going to work overnight? That various peoples who make up that country will start getting along after hundreds of years of hating each other?

I don't know if democracy WILL work in Iraq but it certainly CAN work. It works in quite a few places worldwide. It works (more or less) here in the US (despite, or perhaps thanks to, a Civil War of our own) I think it's possibly racist to assume it can't work in a Muslim country. I think overall the question is too complicated for anybody with mortal understanding to know for sure the answer. I strongly suspect that nobody can predict the future.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I don't know if democracy WILL work in Iraq but it certainly CAN work. It works in quite a few places worldwide. It works (more or less) here in the US (despite, or perhaps thanks to, a Civil War of our own) I think it's possibly racist to assume it can't work in a Muslim country. I think overall the question is too complicated for anybody with mortal understanding to know for sure the answer. I strongly suspect that nobody can predict the future.

I don't think he was being racist, I think it is more a thinking that democracy is actually really, really hard. Democracy is essentially a sharing of power, and it's hard to give up power, it's against human nature. I think more countries have had civil wars than have not had civil wars, so to say it is inevitable isn't too much of a stretch.

[Anthony]

begun, the Civil Wars, have.

[Jesse_Ewiak]

The civil war started the day Saddam fell, we've just tried to not be aware of it.

[Easy Mac]

Well, if you listen to numerous Southerners down here, Lincoln was the biggest terrorist humanity has ever known, so to think that terrorism, democracy and civil war go hand in hand isn't a stretch.

[Dutch]

Democracy is allowed to have a strong central government just like Saddam Hussein's dictatorship had. So civil war can be averted. It will take a while for it to work, it took America what? 13 years before we got it figured out? And now there's a few more blueprints to follow. The Turks are a pretty good example from a neighboring perspective.

I see this (large bombing spree) as the end of a fireworks show as the terrorists pop off as many headline grabbing articles as they can to drown out the less sensational news of Iraq's new government.

I don't know how long it will last, but signs are good that the US and Iraqi forces are cracking down with greater ease these days than just a week or two ago against terrorists and insurgents. And it is beginning to look like a large majority of Iraqi's are slowing realizing that the American presense isn't actually the Apocalypse but a better deal than what the terrorists are offering them.

[timmynausea]

You mean the Clone Wars, right? Cause yeah that shit started at the end of episode 2 and the fighting is still in full swing at the start of episode 3 from what I've read.

[Jesse_Ewiak]

Screaming "Allahu Akbar'' to the end, the foreign fighters lay on their backs in a narrow crawl space under a house and blasted their machine guns up through the concrete floor with bullets designed to penetrate tanks. They fired at U.S. Marines, driving back wave after wave as the Americans tried to retrieve a fallen comrade.

Through Sunday night and into Monday morning, the foreign fighters battled on, their screaming voices gradually fading to just one. In the end, it took five Marine assaults, grenades, a tank firing bunker-busting artillery rounds, 500-pound bombs unleashed by an F/A-18 attack plane and a point-blank attack by a rocket launcher to quell them.

The Marines got their fallen man, suffering one more dead and at least five wounded in the process. And according to survivors of the battle, the foreign fighters near the Syrian border proved to be everything their reputation had suggested: fierce, determined and lethal to the last.

Yup sounds like they are just done for. But, hey we need people with like determination to combat them, like the War Politicians, War Preachers, War Pundits, the 101st Fighting Keyboardists, and their loyal followers. Recruiters are eagerly (and desperately) standing by to take orders.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I don't know how long it will last, but signs are good that the US and Iraqi forces are cracking down with greater ease these days than just a week or two ago against terrorists and insurgents.

Did you see the news today?

In other news: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...html?nav=slate

"The government is useless! I have stopped depending on it," Ali Hali, a 29-year-old Shiite, cried last week. He was among hundreds of wailing residents of the southern city of Najaf who gathered in anger after scores of bodies were found in the Tigris. How the people were killed is not known, but Shiites said they presumed them to be victims of Sunni extremists.

Meanwhile, officials describe setbacks in the security situation in the Sunni Muslim city of Husaybah on the Syrian border, near the area where fighters tied to al Qaeda had staged the second of two well-planned attacks on a U.S. military installation this month. An Iraqi army unit that had once grown to 400 members has dwindled to a few dozen guardsmen "holed up'' inside a phosphate plant outside of Husaybah for their protection, a Marine commander said.

"They will claim that they've got hundreds ready to come back and fight," said Reed, whose company seldom patrols inside Husaybah. "Well, there are no more than 30 of them on duty on any given day, and they are completely ineffective."

Read that article. Sounds like things are going great, huh?

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Dutch

13 years before we got it figured out? And now there's a few more blueprints to follow. The Turks are a pretty good example from a neighboring perspective.

Are you willing to spend 13 years in Iraq to HOPE they get it figured out? Once the 81 BILLION dollar bill passes, we'll have spent over 200 BILLION on this "war". In what, two years? And you're prepared to stay 11 more years?

When will people realize that acts like this are what caused 9/11. Not our "freedom" as some would want you to believe.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I strongly suspect that nobody can predict the future.

Nope, but you sure as hell can try. And the predictions that this would be another Vietnam are looking to be pretty spot on these days.

[Dutch]

I'm not able to tell the future any better than the press can. Who knows, really? But if I could predict anything, it's that *right now* a pull out would make things ripe for civil war, so I'm not clear what you think the next step is.

But in any event, it is my opinion that it's worth the effort and the cost. If you don't respect that, that's fine, but I voted for President Bush to do this and expect him to continue to support the effort. It is my opinion that the process is moving forward steadily.

I know we can agree that it would be great if it all worked out tommorrow, but sadly, there are terrorist-like insurgents that will drag this conflict out as long as they can.

And please learn to take responsability for your own doing. If you kill a child, don't blame me. Same for those who rammed a plane into a skyscraper on 9/11.

[Galaxy]

Why do people think democracry and rebuilding happens overnight?

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Why do people think democracry and rebuilding happens overnight?

Why do people think every country needs American democracy?

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I see this (large bombing spree) as the end of a fireworks show as the terrorists pop off as many headline grabbing articles as they can to drown out the less sensational news of Iraq's new government.

I don't know how long it will last, but signs are good that the US and Iraqi forces are cracking down with greater ease these days than just a week or two ago against terrorists and insurgents.

Would you say that we are 'turning the corner' in Iraq?

July 24, 2003 (from the New York Times, after the deaths of Uday and Qusay Hussein): "White House officials however exuded determination they had turned a corner in the increasingly difficult task of restoring order from chaos in Iraq."

August 13, 2003 (from Fox "News" show Special Report With Brit Hume, Fred Barnes speaking): "Now, Paul Bremer says -- who's over there running the American regime in Iraq, where they've turned the corner in defeating the Baathists and so on and most of the country is safe and stable, says we don't need more troops...I think Bremer also said it was only about 100 terrorists have come in from...outside the country from Iran. And that's not really that many. So I don't think it's that big a problem."

January 1, 2004 (from ABC News, after a bomb blew up at a Baghdad New Year's celebration): "Last night's attack came at a time when coalition officials were cautiously beginning to feel that they had turned a corner here in Iraq."

June 2, 2004 (from CNN's Inside Politics, then-National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice speaking): "The reason that we've turned a corner and, more importantly, that Iraq has turned a corner and the Iraqi people have turned a corner is that they now have a government in place broadly representative of, broadly capable, I think, of representing the views of the Iraqi people that can now accept sovereignty and can be a full partner in trying to secure Iraq and in accelerating its reconstruction. The Iraqis don't like occupation any more than we would like occupation. And it is time for that occupation to end."

September 14, 2004 (from CNN's Newsnight With Aaron Brown, Senator Lindsay Graham speaking): "And between now and our November election and between now and January there will be hell to pay in Iraq because the stakes are very high but, if we can make it through January, Aaron, then I think we've turned the corner."

February 9, 2005 (from CNN's Wolf Blitzer Reports, Senator Lindsay Graham speaking after the Iraqi - and American - elections): "If we think we've turned the corner, this is a misreading of what happened. The attacks are going to continue."

April 15, 2005 (from Fox "News" show The Big Story With John Gibson, Richard Perle answering a question about whether or not a corner has been turned in Iraq): " I believe we've turned a corner. And that was -- that corner was turned when 8.5 million Iraqis braved death to cast their first votes. Now a government is being formed. The Iraqi people are invested in the future of their own country. And that was the critical turning point." The next question Gibson asked Perle was whether or not he ever felt like saying "we were right."

The thing about constantly turning corners? You end up going in circles.

I've been hearing how thigns are turning around for the past two years. Forgive me if I am skeptical of your rosy outlook.

[Aylmar]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

Nope, but you sure as hell can try. And the predictions that this would be another Vietnam are looking to be pretty spot on these days.

Are they really?

US battle deaths by year:

Prior to 1966 - 3,078 (Total up through 31 Dec 65)
1966 - 5,008
1967 - 9,378
1968 - 14, 589
1969 - 9,414
1970 - 4,221
1971 - 1,381
1972 - 300

[Radii]

This was pretty clearly just a big day for the insurgency from everything I read. It seems like they were picking some strategic targets to keep day to day life and volunteering in Iraq as shaky as possible. IIRC, one suicide bombing attack was on a street corner where day laborers would gather every morning to wait for assignments. A second was in the line for people signing up for law enforcement training.

It seems like this is a better "strategy" for the insurgency than trying to kill American troops. Try to scare the Iraqi people out of trying to do anything positive at all, to scare them out of having anything to do with government at all(and how will a democracy succeed if the people aren't involved in the government) via assassinations and bombs like this, and scare the average working man and make him feel like he can't do his job daily without risking his life.


I want to see us succeed, regardless of my feelings on the war when it started... now that we're there, I want everything to work out, but if the insurgents who want us to fail start consistantly going after Iraqi civilians instead of the well armed US Military I'm pretty worried about our chances for success. As we've discussed here before I believe, it's pretty much impossible to stop someone from killing a bunch of innocent people if he's prepared to die himself.

As for the length of time we've been over there, anyone who didn't see this coming was very very shortsighted IMO. Whether it was the media or the government feeding us the bullshit, the idea when we went over there that we'd be in and out in a few months was absolutely laughable. Honestly, I don't think anyone "lied" to us on that front, but the government(Rumsfeld being the talking head at this piont) was very political about it and only focused on taking out saddam to gain public support for the war, and somehow enough suckers(ie. your average american who just wants to be spoon fed information and doesn't want to think) bought into it and ignored the fact that there might be long term consequences and strain on our forces.


This also takes me back to a point that was made about Al Qaeda attackign the United State awhile ago. Suicide Bombers are about the scariest thing I can think of. We have a shot at stopping 9/11 scale attacks. But what would happen if someone from Al Qaeda walked into a mall in the USA and went into the food court and detonated a bomb attached to his body once a month or so. That's terror. That would scare the shit out of every American more than any large scale attack(barring some insane 24 scenario) could. Glad the bad guys haven't figured that out yet.

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

Would you say that we are 'turning the corner' in Iraq?

Classic.

I would like to note that whenever anyone questions the prospects for democracy in Iraq, conservatives are just as willing to "pull the race card" as liberals have ever been.

I think the question in Iraq is less whether Arabs or Muslims can have a successful democracy (as mentioned, Turkey has certainly proved that Muslims can, and post-Arafat developments in Palestine bode well for Arab democracy), but whether democracy can be successfully imposed by outside military force. The historical record in this respect resembles a train wreck. Japan and Germany are the bright points, but they were already modern industrial nations and had just had the living daylights beaten out of them, substantially reducing their will to fight against the occupation...

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

Would you say that we are 'turning the corner' in Iraq?


I've been hearing how thigns are turning around for the past two years. Forgive me if I am skeptical of your rosy outlook.

Pardon me, I've never said anything was "rosy". I said it was a dirty job and we have to do it and the President has said we'll do it for as long as it takes. I agree with that and voted for him to fulfill that obligation.

That's the way democracy works.

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by Radii

This also takes me back to a point that was made about Al Qaeda attackign the United State awhile ago. Suicide Bombers are about the scariest thing I can think of. We have a shot at stopping 9/11 scale attacks. But what would happen if someone from Al Qaeda walked into a mall in the USA and went into the food court and detonated a bomb attached to his body once a month or so. That's terror. That would scare the shit out of every American more than any large scale attack(barring some insane 24 scenario) could. Glad the bad guys haven't figured that out yet.

I was thinking about this, and it wouldn't last. Y'know the first time this happen, the Patriot Act will look mighty good and the White House will start rounding up and deporting anyone that looks remotely Middle Eastern as well as any that advocate questioning White House policy (Michael Moore might be sweating in some relocation camp in Nevada).

David Cross has stated that you cannot win a war on terror, "it's like having a war on jealousy".

I watched the Battle for Algiers which is an interesting docu-drama about France's method of dealing with terrorist insurgency in Algeria in the 50's. It didn't turn out well.

Meanwhile, North Korea has nukes, and Iran is eyeing the process to discourage a very aggressive U.S. policy from entering their borders.

And the UN will ignore the whole ordeal since Bush thumbed his nose at them.

But I disagree with anyone who states this is another Vietnam. Vietnam happened to counteract Communism. Iraq is just about resources, I really think Team Bush was thinking that if they could create democracy smack in the middle of the Muslim world that it would be a feather in their cap, and that oil would be a nice plunder. I have given up on trying to justify this disaster.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Qwikshot

I was thinking about this, and it wouldn't last. Y'know the first time this happen, the Patriot Act will look mighty good and the White House will start rounding up and deporting anyone that looks remotely Middle Eastern as well as any that advocate questioning White House policy (Michael Moore might be sweating in some relocation camp in Nevada).

Left-wing fear mongering? Fair to say or not?

David Cross has stated that you cannot win a war on terror, "it's like having a war on jealousy".

I agree, sort of. I believe the long-term success (or containment) of terror requires strong people represented governments that demand their own governments crack down on internal terrorism. And fair governments that don't blame everything on the USA so the population will direct their attention elsewhere. Which is why I agree with the Clinton Regime Change in Rogue States belief which Bush is now fulfilling.

I watched the Battle for Algiers which is an interesting docu-drama about France's method of dealing with terrorist insurgency in Algeria in the 50's. It didn't turn out well.

"I didn't fail to make a light-bulb 2,000 times, I learned 2,000 different ways not to make a lightbulb." -- Benjamin Franklin (paraphrased, I'm sure)

Meanwhile, North Korea has nukes, and Iran is eyeing the process to discourage a very aggressive U.S. policy from entering their borders.

North Korea has nukes, yes. That is a failure of China as NK falls directly in their sphere of influence. Iraq having nukes falls directly in the US's sphere of influence. Poor peace loving Iran and very aggressive US Policy? What college do you attend?

And the UN will ignore the whole ordeal since Bush thumbed his nose at them.

The UN thumbed their noses at Bush.

But I disagree with anyone who states this is another Vietnam. Vietnam happened to counteract Communism. Iraq is just about resources, I really think Team Bush was thinking that if they could create democracy smack in the middle of the Muslim world that it would be a feather in their cap, and that oil would be a nice plunder. I have given up on trying to justify this disaster.

You think like a college blogger. That is simply teen-age angst romantic revolutionary blather. Sorry to be blunt.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Aylmar

Are they really?

US battle deaths by year:

Prior to 1966 - 3,078 (Total up through 31 Dec 65)
1966 - 5,008
1967 - 9,378
1968 - 14, 589
1969 - 9,414
1970 - 4,221
1971 - 1,381
1972 - 300

Do you want to compare WWI deaths to WWII deaths?

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by Dutch

"I didn't fail to make a light-bulb 2,000 times, I learned 2,000 different ways not to make a lightbulb." -- Benjamin Franklin (paraphrased, I'm sure)

You might want to double-check that quote...it's not the paraphrasing you should be concerned about.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Let's just pull the troops out and let Iraqi's fend for themselves just like the brits did to a bunch of terrorists in 1770-s - 80's and those terrorists turned out fine.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Pardon me, I've never said anything was "rosy". I said it was a dirty job and we have to do it and the President has said we'll do it for as long as it takes. I agree with that and voted for him to fulfill that obligation.

"GIT-R-DUN" right? Who cares about taking care of people in THIS COUNTRY!? Who cares about the illegal alien crisis and how it's bankrupting California hospitals? After all, California is a "Blue State" so it doesn't matter.

We're $205 Billion deep now after what, 2 years? To remove Saddam Hussein and his WMD's? Ok, we're in Iraq, pissing off more people (you know, the same people who flew planes into some buildings), and have accomplished NOTHING. We haven't even caught bin Laden or al-Zarqawi. What happened to "Mission Accomplished"?

What about "Bring 'em on!"? Did you see all of those people yesterday? There sure did look scared at the prospect of someone bringing it on.

Face it. You've been sold a line of BS by the war machine.

That's the way democracy works.

Really? So are you all for us going to North Korea after this? Then Africa? Maybe round it off with some Iran? Force our American Democracy down their throats? Show them what "freedom" is like?

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Qwikshot

David Cross has stated that you cannot win a war on terror, "it's like having a war on jealousy".

What about a war on drugs?

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

When will people realize that acts like this are what caused 9/11. Not our "freedom" as some would want you to believe.

Ok, dude. Just move to Canada so we can be done with you and you can relax.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Left-wing fear mongering? Fair to say or not?

I wouldn't say I'm left-wing, but I would said I do fear for the future. If an Iraqi bombed us right now, could be not say it was justified after the tens of thousands (being generous) of innocents have been killed...for what purpose?

I'm also afraid of what this is doing to our economy.

North Korea has nukes, yes. That is a failure of China as NK falls directly in their sphere of influence. Iraq having nukes falls directly in the US's sphere of influence. Poor peace loving Iran and very aggressive US Policy? What college do you attend?

So what you're saying is Iran is aggressive and the US is not. Let me know when Iran opens military bases across the globe and removes leaders of other countries because they want to impose THEIR Sharia Law and their system on others.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Radii

But what would happen if someone from Al Qaeda walked into a mall in the USA and went into the food court and detonated a bomb attached to his body once a month or so. That's terror. That would scare the shit out of every American more than any large scale attack(barring some insane 24 scenario) could. Glad the bad guys haven't figured that out yet.

No, they're not that stupid. If "the terrorists" open fire on civilian targets in the US like malls and stadiums, it will be open season on all Middle Eastern countries. Forget Geneva, forget Abu Ghraib and the US will have every European country in lock step again them. Having a uniform world with the US, as well as handing the US an open check for brutal interrogation tactics would escalate this to a level not many terrorist leaders would like to have.

Everyone thinks that the terrorists want to launch some major attack on the US in hopes it scares the people. I think the terrorists are actually smarter than that (for right now). Regardless of what some want to believe, groups like Al Qaeda have been hampered from a financial standpoint. Mounting an all out attack against US interests at their current state could be a major blow to their ability to inspire terror in the Middle East. As it stands now, it's all located in Iraq - which is far enough from the US to create apathy on many US citizens (with many US and world groups tiring of the effort). The worst thing for Al Qaeda to do right now is reinspire American resolve.

This, BTW, is one of the reasons it is important to get Iraq on the right path. If the terrorists lose the ability to terrorize Iraq and afghanistan, they will be forced to go into Iran (where the mullahs want little to do with them), or Syria or the Sudan (two countries with governments deathly afraid of pissing off the US). Saudi Arabia and Jordan have done a much better job at handing over terrorists, so it's not all that safe for them to hang out there as well.

As to predictions, I expect the US to be dealing with these hit and runs for another two years - with their frequency decreasing as time moves on. Eventually, the terrorists will start focusing more on picking up recruits in the Sudan, Syria and Palestinian territories and less on keeping up a major presence in Iraq. It's not going to be easy and I expect the aggrivation level to be very high for many US citizens by the end of 05. Still, it's the best course to take and should keep the terrorists from being able to recoup and launch any kind of major assault against US or Europe for the next few years. At which point apathy will kick in, the US will leave Iraq and the terrorists will start plotting their next target.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Ok, dude. Just move to Canada so we can be done with you and you can relax.

So you think that the reason 9/11 happened is because the terrorists "hate our freedom"?

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

When will people realize that acts like this are what caused 9/11. Not our "freedom" as some would want you to believe.

Can you go into more detail about what you mean by this?

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Arles

No, they're not that stupid. If "the terrorists" open fire on civilian targets in the US like malls and stadiums, it will be open season on all Middle Eastern countries. Forget Geneva, forget Abu Ghraib and the US will have every European country in lock step again them. Having a uniform world with the US, as well as handing the US an open check for brutal interrogation tactics would escalate this to a level not many terrorist leaders would like to have.

"Forget Geneva, forget Abu Ghraib" Isn't that what they did @ Abu Ghraib? Forget Geneva?

I have a feeling that if things like that happened (more bombings/attacks in the US) there would be people who feel we deserved. That we've now brought this on ourselves.

The worst thing for Al Qaeda to do right now is reinspire American resolve.

Yeah, who knows that that famous Gee-Dubya "resolve" will do next! Maybe next time he'll go after Iran!

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Can you go into more detail about what you mean by this?

Imposing American will, morality, and "democracy" across the globe is what upsets people, not our freedom.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

We're $205 Billion deep now after what, 2 years?

Just imagine we spent that money on Education or social welfare. The results in education achievement and unemployment/poverty would pretty much be at the same level as now. But, atleast you could sleep better knowing the money was thrown away on a good cause instead of "wasted" on Iraq.

Ok, we're in Iraq, pissing off more people (you know, the same people who flew planes into some buildings), and have accomplished NOTHING. We haven't even caught bin Laden or al-Zarqawi. What happened to "Mission Accomplished"?

Outside of troops stationed in Iraq and afghanistan, how many attacks have their been against US interests since late 01? How many USS Coles? How many attacks on embassies? How many attacks on US civilians? Seems to me like US citizens have been safer over the past three seasons than any point in the last few decades.

Really? So are you all for us going to North Korea after this? Then Africa? Maybe round it off with some Iran? Force our American Democracy down their throats? Show them what "freedom" is like?

Nah, we get the Middle East in order and there won't be anyone left to buy the nukes from North Korea or Iran. In the meantime, the best course of action is to continually slow down their ability to proliferate - ie, don't hand over Nuclear secrets to get a worthless piece of paper from each. I just wish Europe would get that same clue. But, they've only been bit on this with Hitler, WWII Japan, Russia, Iraq, Iran, Iraq again, China and North Korea. They probably need another 3-4 events before they figure out the idea that dictators may not always abide by signed contracts.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by Arles

No, they're not that stupid. If "the terrorists" open fire on civilian targets in the US like malls and stadiums, it will be open season on all Middle Eastern countries. Forget Geneva, forget Abu Ghraib and the US will have every European country in lock step again them. Having a uniform world with the US, as well as handing the US an open check for brutal interrogation tactics would escalate this to a level not many terrorist leaders would like to have.

You have considerably more faith in the European countries than I do. There have been several terrorist attacks in Europe on civilian targets without any massive retaliation or global outcry, do you really believe if it were to happen in the US that would change their outlook? Perhaps, but I would be more inclined to believe they would express sympathy, but further distance themselves from us and try to make it a "US versus the terrorists" issue.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

Imposing American will, morality, and "democrazy" across the globe is what upsets people, not our freedom.

That's about equally as ignorant and simplistic a view as the "they hate our freedom" argument.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

That's about equally as ignorant and simplistic a view as the "they hate our freedom" argument.

So what do you think it is, then?

[Arles]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

"Forget Geneva, forget Abu Ghraib" Isn't that what they did @ Abu Ghraib? Forget Geneva?

I have a feeling that if things like that happened (more bombings/attacks in the US) there would be people who feel we deserved. That we've now brought this on ourselves.

Who cares? It would be suicide for their cause. Even terrorists are not that dense.

Originally Posted by Bee

You have considerably more faith in the European countries than I do. There have been several terrorist attacks in Europe on civilian targets without any massive retaliation or global outcry, do you really believe if it were to happen in the US that would change their outlook? Perhaps, but I would be more inclined to believe they would express sympathy, but further distance themselves from us and try to make it a "US versus the terrorists" issue.

Maybe, but atleast they will stay out of our way. Which, in many cases, may be more valuable than all the strings we would need to add to get their meager donations and 10 troops.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

"GIT-R-DUN" right? Who cares about taking care of people in THIS COUNTRY!? Who cares about the illegal alien crisis and how it's bankrupting California hospitals? After all, California is a "Blue State" so it doesn't matter.

We're $205 Billion deep now after what, 2 years? To remove Saddam Hussein and his WMD's? Ok, we're in Iraq, pissing off more people (you know, the same people who flew planes into some buildings), and have accomplished NOTHING. We haven't even caught bin Laden or al-Zarqawi. What happened to "Mission Accomplished"?

What about "Bring 'em on!"? Did you see all of those people yesterday? There sure did look scared at the prospect of someone bringing it on.

Face it. You've been sold a line of BS by the war machine.



Really? So are you all for us going to North Korea after this? Then Africa? Maybe round it off with some Iran? Force our American Democracy down their throats? Show them what "freedom" is like?

i agree with rex here.

i really wish USA would go back to being an isolationist country, like we were during the pre-Pearl Harbor era.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

So you think that the reason 9/11 happened is because the terrorists "hate our freedom"?

It's a compicated issue but surely you aren't arguing America deserved or brought this upon themselves. At least I hope you don't think that.

Surely you must recognize the hate shared by these people and the vast cultural difference that led to such actions as coming to America and doing what they did.

They had no problem bringing a fight to American soil so I have no problem with America taking it to them. Lucky for the country we as American try and help rebuild it. I suspect if the tables were turned we would not be so fortunate and Iraq would level this whole place if they could.

There's no way the level of hate they possess comes from America spreading democracy alone. Strapping a bomb to your chest goes beyond disliking our form of government.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Arles

Just imagine we spent that money on Education or social welfare. The results in education achievement and unemployment/poverty would pretty much be at the same level as now. But, atleast you could sleep better knowing the money was thrown away on a "good cause" instead of wasted on Iraq.

They may be at the same level, they may not. Or we could solve Social Security. Or we could deal with the trade defecit a bit more.

Outside of troops stationed in Iraq and afghanistan, how many attacks have their been against US interests since late 01? How many USS Coles? How many attacks on embassies? How many attacks on US civilians? Seems to me like US citizens have been safer over the past three seasons than any point in the last decade.

Well hell, After the World Trade Center bombing in 93 there were no attacks by foreigners on US soil either. Clinton did a helluva job, huh? lol

Nah, we get the Middle East in order and there won't be anyone left to buy the nukes from North Korea or Iran. In the meantime, the best course of action is to continually slow down their ability to proliferate - ie, don't hand over Nuclear secrets to get a worthless piece of paper from each. I just wish Europe would get that same clue. But, they've only been bit on this with Hitler, WWII Japan, Russia, Iraq, Iran, Iraq again, China and North Korea. They probably need another 3-4 events before they figure out the idea that dictators may not always abide by signed contracts.

Yeah. We've never dealt with dictators. We're above that. Sorry, I forgot.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

i agree with rex here.

i really wish USA would go back to being an isolationist country, like we were during the pre-Pearl Harbor era.

Yet, in spite of all that isolationism, Pearl Harbor still happened....

[rkmsuf]

Isolationism is just about impossible as a world power today. With the flow of information it's much, much harder to bury your head in the sand.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Arles

Just imagine we spent that money on Education or social welfare. The results in education achievement and unemployment/poverty would pretty much be at the same level as now. But, atleast you could sleep better knowing the money was thrown away on a good cause instead of "wasted" on Iraq.

Well hell, why even collect taxes if the money is good for nothing?

Originally Posted by Arles

Outside of troops stationed in Iraq and afghanistan, how many attacks have their been against US interests since late 01? How many USS Coles? How many attacks on embassies? How many attacks on US civilians? Seems to me like US citizens have been safer over the past three seasons than any point in the last few decades.

So your argument is, "Except for the thousands of soldiers that are killed and wounded, US citizens are safe". You know, except for the crime victims, NY City residents are 100% safe from crime! There were a couple thousand deaths from terrorism in the US in the decades before the war, and a couple thousand American deaths after the war, so it's hard to say that the war made Americans safer. Invading a country that could not attack us and wasn't aiding those that wanted to attack us does not make us safer. Iraq was not about national security.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

They may be at the same level, they may not.

You could make the same claim on another 9-11 or domestic attack without the US acts in Iraq.

Well hell, After the World Trade Center bombing in 93 there were no attacks by foreigners on US soil either. Clinton did a helluva job, huh? lol

I didn't say "US soil" I said "US interests". And we know there were attacks on numerous US interests including the USS Cole, as well as the US allowing Al Qaeda to grow unfettered and plan the events of 9-11. While I don't think Clinton was to blame for all of that, I don't see how anyone could state (with the benefit of hindsight) that the US was "safe" from terror during the late 90s.

Yeah. We've never dealt with dictators. We're above that. Sorry, I forgot.

It's not about being above anything - it's about not being stupid. For every treaty with dictator that worked out well for the US with no use of force I can name about 10 that didn't. What we did with North Korea in the late 90s was stupid - and there are many that want us to make that exact same mistake again.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Arles

Yet, in spite of all that isolationism, Pearl Harbor still happened....

but *would* they have attacked had they known of our nuclear capabilities? i highly doubt it.

so if we go back to being an isolationist country, let every other country fend for themselves, i don't think anyone would bother us, i highly believe that. we have nukes, attacking the US would be akin to shooting yourself in the foot. we wouldn't require such a huge defense budget, wouldn't prop up Japan - one of our biggest competitors in many markets - by paying to defend them, we could divert a significant portion of our defense budget and do some really neat things with that money for...who?...for Americans, that's who. not to mention more good will would be generated due to us not being in everyone's business. we do ourselves more harm in the long run i think acting like Team America - World Police than by minding our own business.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

It's a compicated issue but surely you aren't arguing America deserved or brought this upon themselves. At least I hope you don't think that.

Deserve it? I don't think those people in the WTC deserved to die, no. I do think, however, that our government is very irresponsible in regards to foreign affairs and set us up for something of that magnitude.

Surely you must recognize the hate shared by these people and the vast cultural difference that led to such actions as coming to America and doing what they did.

Yeah. People are pissed at the US. A radical fringe took the next step and attacked us.

They had no problem bringing a fight to American soil so I have no problem with America taking it to them. Lucky for the country we as American try and help rebuild it. I suspect if the tables were turned we would not be so fortunate and Iraq would level this whole place if they could.

I have no problem with us going to Afghanistan. Iraq, however, has proved to be a war started under false pretenses. That is a bad precident to set or make in this day in age. Now there are estimates that 100,000 Iraqi civilians are dead.

Strapping a bomb to your chest goes beyond disliking our form of government.

It certainly does! Like I said, it's not that they hate our "freedom" or our form of government. Maybe they hate OUR government?