Terri Schiavo - The Final Word

[Blackadar]

hxxp://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/06/15/schiavo.autopsy.ap/index.html

Schiavo autopsy finds no sign of trauma
Wednesday, June 15, 2005 Posted: 11:33 AM EDT (1533 GMT)


LARGO, Florida (AP) -- Terri Schiavo did not suffer any trauma prior to her 1990 collapse and her brain was about half of normal size when she died, according to results released Wednesday of an autopsy conducted on the severely brain-damaged woman.

Pinellas-Pasco Medical Examiner Jon Thogmartin concluded that there was no evidence of strangulation or other trauma leading to her collapse.

He also said she did not appear to have suffered a heart attack and there was no evidence that she was given harmful drugs or other substances prior to her death.

Autopsy results on the 41-year-old brain damaged woman were made public Wednesday, more than two months after Schiavo's death ended an internationally watched right-to-die battle that engulfed the courts, Congress and the White House and divided the country.

She died from dehydration, he said.

He said she would not have been able to eat or drink if she had been given food by mouth as her parents' requested.

"Removal of her feeding tube would have resulted in her death whether she was fed or hydrated by mouth or not," Thogmartin told reporters.

Thogmartin said that Schiavo's brain was about half of its expected size when she died March 31 in a Pinellas Park hospice, 13 days after her feeding tube was removed.

"The brain weighed 615 grams, roughly half of the expected weight of a human brain. ... This damage was irreversible, and no amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons."
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I guess some asshats on this board should apologize for their rumor-mongering about her being abused, strangled or drugged now.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

I guess some asshats on this board should apologize for their rumor-mongering about her being abused, strangled or drugged now.

Was this openly suggested/argued by her parents at any time? If so, I'd be satisfied with their apology. Who the hell cares about people around here?

[oliegirl]

I am glad it has ended the way it did and there is no sign that Michael abused her. I hope this brings her parents and family some closure and maybe just a little bit of peace that she is in a better place now. This was a horrible situation and there was no way for it to end well, but I think it ended as good as it could have.

[Flasch186]

Im sure the coroner MUST'VE been anti-Christian. How dare he!!! He is a liar!!! We should get a different coroner to do amn autopsy, perhaps one that wprks at a baptist hospital and is the reverend of a local church!!! Then we could trust him (if he gets us the results we want)!!! We will not quit until Terri's truth has come out!!!

enough, i have to go to JR's strip club in a few minutes..

[Arles]

I'm glad to see there was no abuse as well. But, to be fair to those on the board that wondered about it, there was really no way to know for sure until the autopsy. Still, I think this wraps up the situation as a horrible tragedy and should put a lot of the rumors/innuendo to bed.

[Critch]

You can't trust anything the medical community says. They eat fetuses.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

I am glad it has ended the way it did and there is no sign that Michael abused her. I hope this brings her parents and family some closure and maybe just a little bit of peace that she is in a better place now. This was a horrible situation and there was no way for it to end well, but I think it ended as good as it could have.

I need to get away from the media.
I started reading this as a clever Michael Jackson joke.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Critch

You can't trust anything the medical community says. They eat fetuses.

Do they taste like chicken?

[stevew]

I thought the final word was "I wanna live!"

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Do they taste like chicken?

Why? Making plans?

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Why? Making plans?

Yes, I hear they go quite nicely with fava beans and Chianti.


Oh, and how do you feel now after all of your bullshit rumors you posted regarding Michael Schivalo now turn out to be entirely unfounded and untrue? What kind of pathetic and feeble excuses will you make now regarding your anti-Christian behavior? What kind of justification do you use for character assassination and rumormongering?

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by stevew

I thought the final word was "I wanna live!"

That's actually a phrase.

[ISiddiqui]

*Points at conservatives*

HAW HAW!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

*Points at conservatives*

HAW HAW!

Sorry, but not all of us were on this bandwagon.

[duckman]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Im sure the coroner MUST'VE been anti-Christian. How dare he!!! He is a liar!!! We should get a different coroner to do amn autopsy, perhaps one that wprks at a baptist hospital and is the reverend of a local church!!! Then we could trust him (if he gets us the results we want)!!! We will not quit until Terri's truth has come out!!!

enough, i have to go to JR's strip club in a few minutes..

Speaking of asshats......

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by duckman

Speaking of asshats......

Que?

[MJ4H]

I believe the implication there was that flasch was being an asshat in that post (which I tend to agree with).

[Joe Canadian]

This is why, in these cases I tend to believe all the "expert" doctors that spoke about her condition after looking at the facts... instead of listening to people who want to push a certian agenda.

[Raiders Army]

I thought it was Flasch was being sarcastic. *shrug*

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Yes, I hear they go quite nicely with fava beans and Chianti.


Oh, and how do you feel now after all of your bullshit rumors you posted regarding Michael Schivalo now turn out to be entirely unfounded and untrue? What kind of pathetic and feeble excuses will you make now regarding your anti-Christian behavior? What kind of justification do you use for character assassination and rumormongering?

Your no different that what you accuse me of, seeing just what you want to see and ignoring all else.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Your no different that what you accuse me of, seeing just what you want to see and ignoring all else.

What factual evidence from a credible source is Blackadar ignoring?

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Your no different that what you accuse me of, seeing just what you want to see and ignoring all else.

You're the one who posted the shit about abuse. About possible Michael Schivao strangling her or purposely drugging her. About her actually having an intact brain. Now that you've been proven wrong YET AGAIN, you still can't admit it.

No, we're not alike in any way beyond the fact we both are breathing. However, there's no difference between you and an Islamic suicide bomber except that no one has asked you to strap a bomb on your chest yet.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

However, there's no difference between you and an Islamic suicide bomber except that no one has asked you to strap a bomb on your chest yet.

Whoa. That was pretty harsh.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Whoa. That was pretty harsh.

For any other single person on this board I'd agree. When applying it to Bubba Wheels, I don't think its a harsh statement at all.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

*Points at conservatives*

HAW HAW!

Not only were we all not on this bandwagon...I think it was a distinct minority of "conservatives" who were siding wholly with the parents. In other words, I think there was a lot of room on that particular bandwagon.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Not only were we all not on this bandwagon...I think it was a distinct minority of "conservatives" who were siding wholly with the parents. In other words, I think there was a lot of room on that particular bandwagon.

Agree with this. I think every Republican I know thought it was a horrible idea for the government to intervine. (a small sample size, but kind of interesting) I think the administration lost a few points on this one.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

This is why, in these cases I tend to believe all the "expert" doctors that spoke about her condition after looking at the facts... instead of listening to people who want to push a certian agenda.

This is what gets me about this case. While most of me just wants this story and her parents to go away forever, a part of me wants to get President Bush and Tom DeLay(the primary targets for my political anger in this case) up on a stage and ask them to defend their comments on "Activist Judges" and their precious "Culture of Life" and for taking such an absolutely irrational view in the face of numerous court decisions based on numerous doctors' findings and make them eat their fucking words.

While I'm at it, I'd like to ban the phrase "Activist Judges" from both sides of the political spectrum. It's the latest buzzword and its been pretty full of shit on both sides of the aisle most times I've heard it used.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Not only were we all not on this bandwagon...I think it was a distinct minority of "conservatives" who were siding wholly with the parents. In other words, I think there was a lot of room on that particular bandwagon.

Good post and an important thing to point out. I hope my previous post doesn't come accross as attacking all conservatives, as that's soemthing I very rarely do. Those that tried to make this a national issue though, are permanently on my shit list.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Radii

For any other single person on this board I'd agree. When applying it to Bubba Wheels, I don't think its a harsh statement at all.

Who are you?

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Radii

This is what gets me about this case. While most of me just wants this story and her parents to go away forever, a part of me wants to get President Bush and Tom DeLay(the primary targets for my political anger in this case) up on a stage and ask them to defend their comments on "Activist Judges" and their precious "Culture of Life" and for taking such an absolutely irrational view in the face of numerous court decisions based on numerous doctors' findings and make them eat their fucking words.

While I'm at it, I'd like to ban the phrase "Activist Judges" from both sides of the political spectrum. It's the latest buzzword and its been pretty full of shit on both sides of the aisle most times I've heard it used.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You and your buddy Blackadar are in your very own way as extremist, spitefull and crazed at attacking President Bush and Tom Delay at any chance as you and your ilk accuse me of being when I happen to question something such as Shiavo's motivations for not wanting to allow Terri's parents to take over full responsibility for her after he himself had moved on away from her with his own life and new family. You be peas in the pod, and attacking me for your own biases is downright hilarious.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You and your buddy Blackadar are in your very own way as extremist, spitefull and crazed at attacking President Bush and Tom Delay at any chance as you and your ilk accuse me of being when I happen to question something such as Shiavo's motivations for not wanting to allow Terri's parents to take over full responsibility for her after he himself had moved on away from her with his own life and new family. You be peas in the pod, and attacking me for your own biases is downright hilarious.

a) I don't attack Bush and Delay at any chance. This is the first time I've ever commented on DeLay on this board at all I believe. I have attacked Bush when I've felt it justified and I've defended Bush when I've felt it to be justified. I'm more than willing to admit that I attack him more than I defend him but I listen to each policy and point that he makes and judge it individually, not because of any thing he has said previously.

b) I disagree with Blackadar a ton. Just not in this case.

c) My comments about you personally are absolutely out of line and out of character for me and mostly unrelated to this topic. My comments about you are based on my view of the long standing, consistant way you present yourself and your opinions on this board. Feel free to ignore me if I offend you

[sabotai]

I found it pretty telling of our society that some people thought Bush, DeLay, a "christian scientist" who "examined" here simply by watching her on a video, and a bunch of other people knew more about this case than the doctors that physically examined her for over a decade (however long it was).

It is even more telling that some of those people are actually surprised to find out that those doctors who physically examined her were right (and not at all surprising that the rest of them are in complete denial).

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You and your buddy Blackadar are in your very own way as extremist, spitefull and crazed at attacking President Bush and Tom Delay at any chance as you and your ilk accuse me of being when I happen to question something such as Shiavo's motivations for not wanting to allow Terri's parents to take over full responsibility for her after he himself had moved on away from her with his own life and new family. You be peas in the pod, and attacking me for your own biases is downright hilarious.

You be peas?

Bubba's trying for street cred..

since he has no cred otherwise

You were wrong, and you were proven wrong. Deal with it.

[duckman]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Your no different that what you accuse me of, seeing just what you want to see and ignoring all else.

It's YOU'RE!!!!!

If you're going to be a bigger asshat at least try to the use correct usage of the English language.

Sorry if I moved into QS's territory. It needed to be said.

[Bubba Wheels]

Well, pretty obvious the Bush-haters can't tell him how they really feel, so I guess I get to be the stand-in. Quite the honor!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Well, pretty obvious the Bush-haters can't tell him how they really feel, so I guess I get to be the stand-in. Quite the honor!

Actually, BW, this one isn't just "Bush-haters".

I'd like to tell him he barked up the wrong tree on this one big-time too (not quite to the degree of his recent immigration comments, but in that neighborhood) so if you'll pass that along when you see him, I'd appreciate it.

Then again, he posts here a lot, so maybe he'll get the message.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Actually, BW, this one isn't just "Bush-haters".

I'd like to tell him he barked up the wrong tree on this one big-time too (not quite to the degree of his recent immigration comments, but in that neighborhood) so if you'll pass that along when you see him, I'd appreciate it.

Then again, he posts here a lot, so maybe he'll get the message.

Jon, I understand that, what I'm saying is that the only explanation of the vehemence from the select few that deem it necessary to rail at me for being "Christian right" also view Bush as that way and hence unable to vent at him I become the 'stand-in.' And I do consider it an honor.

Politically, even though admittedly and humbly 'Christian right' I consider myself more of a Pat Buchanan Republican.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Jon, I understand that, what I'm saying is that the only explanation of the vehemence from the select few that deem it necessary to rail at me for being "Christian right" also view Bush as that way and hence unable to vent at him I become the 'stand-in.' And I do consider it an honor.

Politically, though, even though admittedly and humbly 'Christian right' I consider myself more of a Pat Buchanan Republican.

Heh, I don't disagree with your assessment there too much (some but not a whole lot) but I don't get too many chances to disagree with you here so I figured I'd better take advantage of it

[SirFozzie]

First you agree with me..

Then you disagree with Bubba..

Why Jon.. I think you're becoming a centrist!!!

(just teasin man )

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Jon, I understand that, what I'm saying is that the only explanation of the vehemence from the select few that deem it necessary to rail at me for being "Christian right" also view Bush as that way and hence unable to vent at him I become the 'stand-in.' And I do consider it an honor.

Politically, even though admittedly and humbly 'Christian right' I consider myself more of a Pat Buchanan Republican.

actually i think it has MUCH more to do with rubbing it in, when someone is proven wrong. Which you just were. (Will you admit to being wrong or should we start going and pulling your posts out of that other thread?)

BTW I was obviously being sarcastic and probably an asshat at the same time. I certainly dont think that they're opposites and I can probably earn both at the same time.

[Fonzie]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

You and your buddy Blackadar are in your very own way as extremist, spitefull and crazed at attacking President Bush and Tom Delay at any chance as you and your ilk accuse me of being when I happen to question something such as Shiavo's motivations for not wanting to allow Terri's parents to take over full responsibility for her after he himself had moved on away from her with his own life and new family.

75 words with only one comma and one period. That, my friends, is a textbook example of a run-on sentence.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

First you agree with me..

Then you disagree with Bubba..

Why Jon.. I think you're becoming a centrist!!!

(just teasin man )

Something is really out of whack this week ... I've agreed with Jon several times recently. I'm concerrned that maybe I'm moving closer to him.

I don't think I've ever seen radii be that strong about anyone. That says more about Bubba than anything else.

I'll take Blackadar at his word about what BW. There's a reason he's on my ignore list. But based on the parts of the conversation I've seen so far, it doesn't seem like he's denying that he leveled what has now been demonstrated to be false charges in this case. Instead, his defense was "you're no better than me." Not much of a defense.

I think there are times that a lot of us get blinded by our ideology. One reason I think the most ridiculous political criticism is "flip flopping" is that smart people change their minds about issues when presented with new facts or new experiences. There was a lot of new information presented today, and if you're unable or unwilling to process that, there's nothing we can do to keep you from howling at the moon.

[SFL Cat]

Vegetable or not...allowing someone to starve-to-death for two weeks is barbaric. Animals that are put down get better treatment.

[ISiddiqui]

... because if someone suggested giving her lethal injection people wouldn't have a fit? It's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Fonzie]

So...when does that final word arrive?

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Jon, I understand that, what I'm saying is that the only explanation of the vehemence from the select few that deem it necessary to rail at me for being "Christian right" also view Bush as that way and hence unable to vent at him I become the 'stand-in.' And I do consider it an honor.

I think what this thread is about is a release of the pent-up frustration inherent in arguing with someone that is basing his or her argument on fantasy. The Schiavo discussion could have been a very good debate on life and death issues, but instead it turned into baseless ad hominem attacks on the husband and completely insane diagnoses by doctors from watching a 2 minute videotape. Anyone that really thought about it could see through it for what it was: a cheap political stunt. So the frustration builds up, and then when everything is definitively revealed as B.S., the feeling is not only of 'I told you so', but also 'look at the lies you were fed and don't fall for them again!'

It's a red herring to try and deflect it into a 'you just hate Bush' argument.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Vegetable or not...allowing someone to starve-to-death for two weeks is barbaric. Animals that are put down get better treatment.

The difference as I see it. An animal would know it was hungry. Not the case with a vegetable or Terri Schiavo, in this case.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Vegetable or not...allowing someone to starve-to-death for two weeks is barbaric. Animals that are put down get better treatment.

She actually died of dehydration...and a vegetable feels nothing.

[JPhillips]

Bubba: I think you're selling yourself short. I don't see you as a standin for Bush, I see you as a standin for freedom and holiness. Everytime I disagree with you I'm really saying, "I hate freedom and religion." It may not come out that way in my posts, but rest assured that every time we disagree you are on the side of goodness and light and I am a poor schill for my dear friends Hitler and Satan.

[Arles]

First of all, I do not think that Michael did anything to cause Terri's condition, nor do I have a better alternative for Terri than what happened via the courts. But, I did run across this blog and figured I would post it as it does give another side to the report I hadn't seen mentioned yet:

Late last night, I took the time to read the 39-page autopsy report of Terri Schiavo--something which, it is clear to me, most of the callous gloaters on the other side of this debate have not bothered to do. And will never do. These are people who can only talk about the sanctity of life if it's enclosed in ghost quotes and pronounced with a sneer.

You do not need a medical examiner's license to see that the report raises many more questions than it answers, though from the (once again) misleading media coverage, we are led to believe that the matters of Terri's life and murder are resolved. They are not.

Here's a typical example from an article headlined, "No trauma before Schiavo collapse:"

But on page 4 of the M.E.'s summary, what the report actually says with regard to possible strangulation is this:

Michael Schiavo and his supporters and doctors have long maintained that Terri suffered from an eating disorder. In interviews with Larry King, in countless newspaper articles over the past 15 years, and during his successful malpractice trial against Terri's primary care physician, Michael Schiavo stressed his wife's bulimia-related low potassium level as the cause of her initial collapse. Schiavo won $1 million in damages on the grounds that Schiavo's obstetrician had failed to diagnose bulimia.

Unquestioning journalists ran dozens of stories echoing the claim: "Eating disorder is real issue in Schiavo case," "Terri's life a lesson in dangers of bulimia," "The lost lesson of Schiavo case: the dangers of eating disorders," etc.

The autopsy report spend three-and-a-half pages debunking Schiavo's claim, as well as the related claim that she had a heart attack (or, more medically precise, myocardial infarction). But if mentioned at all, the news reports I have seen have downplayed and buried these astonishing revelations (revelations which bear directly on Schiavo's credibility regarding his claim that Terri would have wanted to die).

In Michael Schiavo's favor, the autopsy report also casts doubt on the Schindler family's long-held view that a 1991 bone scan indicated traumatic injury. The report notes that Terri had severe osteoporosis and that the bone scan findings might have also reflected "the aftermath of remote intense CPR, infection, bone turnover, artifact or intense physical therapy. In summary, any rib fractures, leg fractures, skull fractures or spine fractures that occurred concurrent with Mrs. Schiavo's original collapse would almost certainly ahve been diagnosed in February 1990 especially with the number of phsyical exams, radiographs, and other evaluations she received in the early evolution of her care..."

However, the report notes this caveat: "Without the orginal bone scan and radiographs from that period, no other conclusions can [be] reasonably made."

With regard to Terri's alleged persistent vegetative state, most news articles inaccurately portray the report as supporting that diagnosis. But the disability rights group Not Dead Yet has it right:

It is not clear to me from the neuropathology report when and over what period the much-talked-about brain shrinkage occurred. I have also noticed that some are already mocking the claim that Terri recognized visitors (note that the report also does not appear to indicate when and over what period that loss of sight occurred).

For God's sake.

Terri Schiavo, a profoundly disabled woman who was not terminally ill and who had an army of family members ready to care for her for the rest of her natural life, succumbed to forced dehydration at the hands of her spouse-in-name-only.

This is something to gloat about?

***

Good blog analysis at Patterico, Captain's Quarters, and The Anchoress.

***

Finally, here's the last paragraph of the medical examiner's report:

In other words, the medical examiner has pledged to keep something rare in this still unresolved tragedy: an open mind.

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/002756.htm