Baseball Mogul 2006 Preview Thread (Yes, Virginia, there ARE lefties and righties!)

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

I picked up this game for the exact reasons Bee listed...

It will be a fun, easy-going experience (much unlike OOTP & Puresim... they are just very.. intrusive), that has a couple of minor, work-able problems.

I'll post here letting know what I think about it.

Excellent! I look foward to reading your thoughts.


Todd

[oykib]

I pretty much have to side with Jon and jb on this one.

Even if developer needs the money, he's not entitled to it. He deserves the money if he puts out a good product.

This doesn't seem at this point to be a product that's one patch away. This seems a few patches away. That's not a "ready" game in my opinion. The gaming industry has continued to go downhill in this regard.

I'm especially aware of it because of all the trouble I have to do to get an English game out here.

I still remeber the problems I had after going through that trouble for CIV 3. Months later and the damn thing still wasn't playable for me. It's still collecting dust somewhere in my apartment. That's the last PC game that I've bought at release.

[dawgfan]

I know this topic has been discussed ad nauseum before, but this just reminds me that there isn't really a consensus on what constitutes a "bug", and therefore something that should delay the release of a game.

The main issues I've heard regarding BBM in this thread are the issue with certain big market teams being too dominant when using the default settings, and possibly some issues with AI trade behavior. There may also be some issues regarding average player age, older players lingering in the minors, etc.

Obviously not everyone agrees with me, but I don't consider these "bugs" in the traditional sense. First and foremost - is the game stable, and is it compatible with a vast majority of sytems and operating systems? Second to that, does the game behave properly, i.e. do menus work right, links go to where they're supposed to, game functionality works correctly, etc. These are the areas I consider to be true bugs.

Third has to do with how the game plays, i.e. AI behavior and game balancing. The things I've seen listed all fall into this category - design decisions that may not match the user's expectations, but not things that break the game. While I would certainly prefer to see more time spent on tuning these issues to match my own expectations, I also don't find it unreasonable for Clay to release the game at this point assuming that the first 2 areas I've listed are satisfied - the game is stable and works correctly.

I also think it's important to factor in the price - at $19.95, I'm far more willing to live with buying the game and expecting that it may need a few patches to adjust the AI closer to how I'd like it.

That's not to say I don't have some criticisms - it sure sounds like the beta program got out of control on this game, with anyone and everyone getting access to the builds. A beta program is only as useful as the people involved in the program - hammering on a beta build isn't supposed to be a fun experience, it's about testing all matters of the game and providing clear feedback to the developer. It may well be that Clay will get more and better feedback from early purchasers of the game than he ever did through beta testers.

If I pick up the game in the next few days (and I'm leaning that way) I'm also accepting the fact that I will be somewhat of a guinea pig and that in order to get the game closer to what I want I will probably have to spend some time on the BBM forums agitating to get the changes I want implemented into a patch.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by oykib

I pretty much have to side with Jon and jb on this one.

Even if developer needs the money, he's not entitled to it. He deserves the money if he puts out a good product.

This doesn't seem at this point to be a product that's one patch away. This seems a few patches away. That's not a "ready" game in my opinion. The gaming industry has continued to go downhill in this regard.

I'm especially aware of it because of all the trouble I have to do to get an English game out here.

I still remeber the problems I had after going through that trouble for CIV 3. Months later and the damn thing still wasn't playable for me. It's still collecting dust somewhere in my apartment. That's the last PC game that I've bought at release.

oykib I know whereyou are coming from being I am over here in Korea. You could try YESASIA.com it has alot of games.

[Bee]

Getting back to the game for a second...

I found this over at the mogul board regarding historic leagues and thought some here might be interested. Not a major thing for certain, but still kind of neat.

BTW, if you ever wonder if a guy is real, click on his name in the Scouting Report. For real players, it will go to his page at Baseball-Reference.com.

Clay

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Bee

Getting back to the game for a second...

I found this over at the mogul board regarding historic leagues and thought some here might be interested. Not a major thing for certain, but still kind of neat.

WOW that's awesome.Great catch.

[oykib]

Originally Posted by Galaril

oykib I know whereyou are coming from being I am over here in Korea. You could try YESASIA.com it has alot of games.

Thanks, Galaril. I thought they only sold VCDs and such. I'll give them a try next time.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by oykib

Thanks, Galaril. I thought they only sold VCDs and such. I'll give them a try next time.

I forgot to mention you can also get "Chips n Bits" online store to deliver software overseas for about $25.-30 . I have occasionally when the wife wasn't looking ordered one form them like Rome Total War. I believe what they are doing is technically illegal but hey I am not telling. I noticed that Amazon and others stopped selling game software and any other kind of software overseas right after 9/11. I guess it had to do with the "terror boys" using a Mocrosoft Flight Simulator game(talk about bad publicity).

[Galaril]

Anyone who thinks there is toomany njuries go over to the mogul board in the Beta discussion area. I stared apoll to give Clay some options. If it works out I plan i do more polls to give Clay some feedback for future updates.Since from his comments the the loadest and most numerous voices will get their requests addressed over there.

[21C]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Anyone who thinks there is toomany njuries go over to the mogul board in the Beta discussion area. I stared apoll to give Clay some options. If it works out I plan i do more polls to give Clay some feedback for future updates.Since from his comments the the loadest and most numerous voices will get their requests addressed over there.

I would actually suggest that you post this in the Bugs forum or even the General one. I doubt that many people ( Clay included ) will actually check in there now that the game is released. That way you can get more people to respond and this should grab Clay's attention more.

General forum http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin...=&forumid=1726
Bugs http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin...=&forumid=1728

[Arles]

What, no "Alrighty Boyz" thread yet? This group is slipping

[Buccaneer]

I was just thinking that, Arlie.

With the IMPORTANT POLL showing an even three-way split between historical, current and future, I wonder if the game ended up being designed for the ONLY WAY of playing or did it end up being balanced for all 3 types of players?

[Sharpieman]

What the heck is up with the Giants roster? Half the players on the team are rated way below what they should be.

[MizzouRah]

More impressions?


Todd

[Bee]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I was just thinking that, Arlie.

With the IMPORTANT POLL showing an even three-way split between historical, current and future, I wonder if the game ended up being designed for the ONLY WAY of playing or did it end up being balanced for all 3 types of players?

I'm guessing you're interested in the historic aspects of the game so I'll make a few quick comments about that.

It's amazingly easy to set up. Just pick the year you want to start and the game takes care of all the details. Expansion teams come in when they did in history and teams move when they moved as well. Something else that I really like about it is it will generate all-time leaders that were existing at that time (or you can clear it if you wish).

Not a bug but a design decision was that when starting a new league players who were 18 that year will join the team (usually in the minors) they debuted with in real life. This causes some inaccurate rosters, but avoids the need to actually have detailed rosters for every single team, every single year.

From what I've been told the stats you get in the game from 1901 to 1910 are really screwed up (I'm hoping this will be addressed in a patch). From 1910 to around 1950, I've been told the stats generated are close but the stolen bases are off. After 1950 stats are pretty reasonable.

If there are specific questions anyone has, just ask. I don't know if I'll be able to answer them but someone probably will.

[Ragone]

I'm gonna wait on a few patches.. but i'm seriously considering this game.. but does it have online head to head play or was it scrapped to make the release date and implimented later? (just kidding.. about the head to head play)

[Ksyrup]

FYI, I noticed that when I started a test league in 1920, that in 1934, another "Babe Ruth" came into the league.

[Ragone]

Was one of them a pitcher.. by chance?

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Ragone

Was one of them a pitcher.. by chance?

Unfortunately, I don't know, since I ran 30 years of a test league at one time and those players were long gone by the time it finished (paging, Mr. Almanac...). However, I specifically started in 1920 thinking that by then, Babe Ruth would have to be a hitter, not a pitcher. When you start pre-1914, he gets imported as a pitcher in 1914.

Plus, why would he come back in 1934?

[Galaril]

I am noticing an distinct lackof any kind of acknowledgement from Clay on alot of issues people have been and still are bring up over at his boards. Almost all of the things that SkyDog mentioned haven't been addressed and his posts as well as most others are going unanswered. I heard this is what might happen. Oh well.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by Galaril

I am noticing an distinct lackof any kind of acknowledgement from Clay on alot of issues people have been and still are bring up over at his boards. Almost all of the things that SkyDog mentioned haven't been addressed and his posts as well as most others are going unanswered. I heard this is what might happen. Oh well.

I haven't seen many posts at all over there. The board seems almost dead for a company that just released a game. It's kind of weird.

[Cap Ologist]

Originally Posted by Bee

I haven't seen many posts at all over there. The board seems almost dead for a company that just released a game. It's kind of weird.

I was surprised too, I went over there last night and was really disappointed in the lack of discussion/review.

[Jeff Olsen]

Originally Posted by Bee

From what I've been told the stats you get in the game from 1901 to 1910 are really screwed up (I'm hoping this will be addressed in a patch). From 1910 to around 1950, I've been told the stats generated are close but the stolen bases are off. After 1950 stats are pretty reasonable.

That was with 2K4 and 2K5. 2K6 is pretty reasonable from 1910 on but the rookies.ini has to be edited to lower the talent in the draft pool. I've found that 70s across the board works well.

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

More impressions?


Todd

I played ~1.5 seasons last night with the Astros (of course) on the highest difficulty level. Looking at the expense report, it was quite clear that a failure to appear in the playoffs would mean losing a significant amount of money. I decided that the playoffs were simply an unrealistic goal, so I dumped salary to get the books balanced. In the offseason, I did even more salary-slashing (the trade block feature works VERY well... you add player(s) to the block, and then can get offers with a single button click -- however, when I tried to dump just Jeff Bagwell's $15mil salary, nobody would bite unless I sweetened the deal!!).

In free agency, I was SO far under my budget, that I could open the purse-strings a little bit. I was very surprised by how many big-name players were in Free Agency -- it's hard to say if it's accurate or not, but there certainly seemed like a huge amount of players on the open market (biggest name was Albert Pujols). Then again, in baseball, I guess there are always a lot of big names out there.

Then came the draft. The draft is not very well done at all, IMO. There is no art to picking players, as far as I can tell - just take the highest-rated guy. There are high school and/or college stats, but I'm far from convinced that they mean anything. I was disappointed with the draft.

So, I will do a quick review of (what I consider) the key facets of any text-sim game:

Interface: A+ -- Best interface out there, hands down. Everything is clickable, screens load instantly, everything is easy to get to... all text-sim designers should take notes from this game.

Game Engine: C -- Nothing special about it, as far as I can tell. Some stats (like quality pitchers' stats) seem out of whack. Seems too tough for good pitchers to put up big numbers.

In-season Gameplay: B- -- Not much to do in the season, really. It's fun being able to easily track your prospects' progress in the minors, and it's also very nice that you can re-negotiate during the season and use the well-designed trade block, but other than that, it's kind of bleh. One note on re-negotiations: they are pretty well done, but not perfect. One problem, was that you can offer both a player option and a team option in the same contract.. that doesn't make sense. Also, while at times the negotiations work perfectly. Occasionally, I would be reminded of a Family Guy scene:

Peter: I'll give you 60 bucks for that coffin.
Storeowner: Sir, that coffin costs 1000 dollars!
Peter: $2000.
Storeowner: That's twice what it costs!
Peter: 40 bucks.
Brian: He.. doesn't know how to haggle.

Long-term/Career Gameplay: C+ -- Hard for me to analyse this given that I didn't play very much, but my best guess is that it won't be all that great. The draft is about as boring as I could possibly imagine, and free agency seems... off. However, the financial model is very good (infinitely better than OOTP's), and budgeting really is important. If player personalities played a more significant role, career-player would be even more fun. Sim-speed is as good as it gets, which is a nice boost.

Overall: B- -- Maybe if I really get into a career, it'll get fun, but for some reason, I just don't see myself getting sucked into a team. However, the interface, sim-speed, and financial engine are all the best out there, so the game has a lot to build on!

Hope this helps some,
~rpi-fan

[Bee]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

One problem, was that you can offer both a player option and a team option in the same contract.. that doesn't make sense.

I haven't seen this myself, but why does that not make sense? Both the team and the player have the option of extending the contract.

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by Bee

I haven't seen this myself, but why does that not make sense? Both the team and the player have the option of extending the contract.

Hmm, k. I didn't think about it very hard -- that does seem reasonable. FTR, that wasn't a big factor (if a factor at all) in my impression of the game.

[Swaggs]

My three biggest problems:

1.) Organizing the depth charts feels "clunky" to me. The auto-sort doesn't yield the best lineups and seems irratic to me.

2.) Too many injuries. That become all the more frustrating when combined with the difficulties in organizing the depth chart.

3.) Amateur draft is not fun. Take the highest rated potential guy. Woohoo!

[Bee]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

Hmm, k. I didn't think about it very hard -- that does seem reasonable. FTR, that wasn't a big factor (if a factor at all) in my impression of the game.

I thought your impressions were pretty accurate. I would recommend doing a little more inspection of draft picks though. I've found the overall rating to be helpful in a general "broad brush" kind of way, but not something I rely on too much (especially for older veterans). But yes, the draft could use some improvements.

[Ksyrup]

I was going to say, two people have brushed aside the draft as simply "pick the highest potential guy", but I haven't seen any SkyDog-type analysis confirming that's all the draft is. Don't you need to evaluate what kind of careers various high and low picks have over the course of 20-30 years before you can make that conclusion? You might be right, but it seems premature to come to that conclusion after playing for 2 years.

[MizzouRah]

Well, I guess I saved $20 for now.

Thanks,


Todd

[Ragone]

Yea, i don't like the inactivity for a new game being released.. this is going into the long term wait and see bin.. right next to oh.. black and white 2 :P

[Ben E Lou]

Speaking of inactivity, Clay mentioned that 8.01 should be out today or tomorrow.

I posted an updated big list of issues: http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin...threadid=70671

Now we get to see how the response is.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Speaking of inactivity, Clay mentioned that 8.01 should be out today or tomorrow.

I posted an updated big list of issues: http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin...threadid=70671

Now we get to see how the response is.

Thanks Ben. I'm sure I'll buy the game at some point, but I'd like to see Clay address some of these issues first.

[Dreslough]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

One problem, was that you can offer both a player option and a team option in the same contract.. that doesn't make sense.

I had the same reaction when I designed this part. I found some contracts with both player options and team options and I had to think about who "gets to go first" when deciding whether to exercise an option. As the game is "team-centric", we let you decide whether you want to exercise an option before the player decides if he wants to exercise his. I actually think the balance works quite well. You can shave years off a contract offer and replace them with a team option if you want the ability to lock a guy down if he stays good -- but obviously the player won't look on it as favorably as a full-length normal contract.

(There is a bug in 8.00 where you can land a player pretty easily by offering a big player option, but we're putting up 8.01 tonight to fix this).

As for the draft, if you have #1 Scouting and the board has a 97 and he's the only guy above 90, then you're probably best off taking him. But otherwise there's a lot more complexity than that. For starters, if you're trying to win this year, you'd probably rather have a 22-year-old 80/90 (Overall/Peak) than an 18-year-old 60/95.

If you find a 70/80 with monster college stats, he's probably going to be a better player than a 75/85 with weaker stats.

Also, the steepness of the curve in high school and college is a great indicator of growth potential. Someone who hit .280 his Freshman year and .380 his Senior year will develop faster in the minors than someone who only jumped from .320 to .350 over the same span.

The other part of this of course is learning what's valuable in building a team. Your scouts may love a player's talent, and he might have a '90' Power, but if he can't get a walk to save his life then I'm sure Billy Beane wouldn't draft him.

Clay

[Dreslough]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Anyone who thinks there is toomany njuries

My opinion on injuries, having spent hours tweaking the game in this area, is that they match the number of injuries in MLB. Depth is key to a successful team. The Red Sox spent most of the year without Nomar or Trot, and Pedro's constantly missing starts. But they still won the World Series.

I THINK people tend to think injuries are overblown because they are more prevalent than in previous versions of Mogul, and because it's frustrating when it happens to YOUR players.

However, I could be wrong. There are many other smart people playing thousands of seasons of Baseball Mogul and looking at the results, and this is more testing than I'm able to do myself.

But my opinion doesn't matter anymore, because I just added the ability to set injuries in the League Editor anywhere from -100% (no injuries) to +100%.



Clay

[Dreslough]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

My three biggest problems:

1.) Organizing the depth charts feels "clunky" to me. The auto-sort doesn't yield the best lineups and seems irratic to me.

2.) Too many injuries. That become all the more frustrating when combined with the difficulties in organizing the depth chart.

3.) Amateur draft is not fun. Take the highest rated potential guy. Woohoo!

The Auto-Sort is actually intentionally imperfect. I didn't want roster management to just be:

Step 1: Click Auto-Sort
Step 2: Sim
Step 3: Go to Step 1

I actually like it when I click 'Auto-Sort' and it puts Dustin Pedrioa (20-year-old Red Sox prospect) in my lineup. I think "I'm smarter than that -- he needs some more time in AA".

Your Auto-Sort is no better than your Scouting. So you need to do some tweaking afterward. With the new minor league teams, you may also want to examine how your players are doing at each minor league level (although they will still develop pretty well using Auto-Sort).

Clay

[Ben E Lou]

All three of those responses are encouraging, I must say.

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

All three of those responses are encouraging, I must say.

Yep, thanks for the answers.

I'm still far from sold on the draft, though. How are the high school & college stats generated?

Also, does anyone else think there are too many big-time free agents in the offseason, or is it just me? (I really have no idea, here, how things should be)

[jbmagic]

Originally Posted by Dreslough

But my opinion doesn't matter anymore, because I just added the ability to set injuries in the League Editor anywhere from -100% (no injuries) to +100%.


Clay

great option to the game.

[jbmagic]

Originally Posted by Dreslough

The Auto-Sort is actually intentionally imperfect. I didn't want roster management to just be:

Step 1: Click Auto-Sort
Step 2: Sim
Step 3: Go to Step 1

I actually like it when I click 'Auto-Sort' and it puts Dustin Pedrioa (20-year-old Red Sox prospect) in my lineup. I think "I'm smarter than that -- he needs some more time in AA".

Your Auto-Sort is no better than your Scouting. So you need to do some tweaking afterward. With the new minor league teams, you may also want to examine how your players are doing at each minor league level (although they will still develop pretty well using Auto-Sort).

Clay

is this also based on cpu teams too? it depends on there scouting when they make there lineup and decisions?

[MizzouRah]

Thanks Clay. Your responses are appreciated.


Todd

[Bee]

To me the injury thing was by far the biggest issue with the game. The solution that Clay has implemented I think will go a long way in improving my enjoyment of the game. Exellent news and the patch coming out so soon is also great!

[Galaril]

I am also very encouraged that Clay is listening to what people are saying and asking for. I will buy this in the next day or so after seeing some postive signs here. I only hope he is going to do something about the trades because they are FUBAR. Well I hopoe not beyond repair but they are really screwed up. That alomng with the big teams being too overpowered are my main concerns for this one.

[Static Cling]

Quick Question, can't post this in the sportsmogul forum b/c for some reason I haven't been authorized yet...unless I am just missing it, I don't see a way to put a player on the DL, unless you autosort...is that true?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Static Cling

Quick Question, can't post this in the sportsmogul forum b/c for some reason I haven't been authorized yet...unless I am just missing it, I don't see a way to put a player on the DL, unless you autosort...is that true?

Just drop him all the way to the bottom of your list.

[Jeff Olsen]

Originally Posted by Static Cling

Quick Question, can't post this in the sportsmogul forum b/c for some reason I haven't been authorized yet...unless I am just missing it, I don't see a way to put a player on the DL, unless you autosort...is that true?

For some reason, the ability to move a player from the starting roster direct to the DL is not enabled. You can do it if you move him to AAA first, this will activate the "move to" box to the right of the roster.

[castorius]

Originally Posted by Jeff Olsen

For some reason, the ability to move a player from the starting roster direct to the DL is not enabled. You can do it if you move him to AAA first, this will activate the "move to" box to the right of the roster.

Has anybody figured out how to move a guy from the Majors to the Minor Leagues without having to swap him with another player?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by castorius

Has anybody figured out how to move a guy from the Majors to the Minor Leagues without having to swap him with another player?

I don't think you can. You have to carry 14 batters and 11 pitchers on the big league roster at all times, don't you? If that's the case, then you've got to call someone up when you send someone down anyway.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by Dreslough

My opinion on injuries, having spent hours tweaking the game in this area, is that they match the number of injuries in MLB. Depth is key to a successful team. The Red Sox spent most of the year without Nomar or Trot, and Pedro's constantly missing starts. But they still won the World Series.

I THINK people tend to think injuries are overblown because they are more prevalent than in previous versions of Mogul, and because it's frustrating when it happens to YOUR players.

However, I could be wrong. There are many other smart people playing thousands of seasons of Baseball Mogul and looking at the results, and this is more testing than I'm able to do myself.

But my opinion doesn't matter anymore, because I just added the ability to set injuries in the League Editor anywhere from -100% (no injuries) to +100%.



Clay

To me it feels like the starting pitchers have too many short injuries. Overall they might miss the right amount of days, but it just seems like the same guys get 7 day injuries every time I hit the button.

[castorius]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

I don't think you can. You have to carry 14 batters and 11 pitchers on the big league roster at all times, don't you? If that's the case, then you've got to call someone up when you send someone down anyway.

The biggest pitfall happens when you tend to trade away most of your minor leaguers. You end up with no Minor League spots left. You don't get these slots, they're just gone. Shouldn't I be able to pick up some scrubs from the free agent pool and just put them on the Major League roster so I can put my prized prospects in the Minors? The problem is I can't. When I sign a player off the free agent pool, it gives him a "MLB" designation, and you can't assign this player to a minor league position.

I think this is a design error, not a restriction. Because I have loophole that'll probably work. I can simply just stick the minor league players whom I intend on trading into the Major League roster before I actually trade them. Its just a big hassle for me. I'm still questioning whether this was a design decision, or a limitation in the code or what.