Pats steal a draft pick from Al Davis in his sleep

[CU Tiger]

What else can explain this?

ESPN reporting that the Raiders give a 2011 #1 to the Pats for Seymour

[Lathum]

can we just disband the Raiders if this is true.

[jeff061]

Was about to post that in NFL thread. I agree, I would have been happy with a 2nd.

Guess that also answers my question about why the Pats do so much business with Davis. He's a great lineman, but he hasn't had a year like his peak several years ago and is on the decline. He's also not going to sign a cap friendly contract.

[flere-imsaho]

A no-longer dominant D-lineman in the final year of his contract when you have decent depth and youth on the D-Line anyway for a potential 1.1 - 1.5?

If it's true: LOL.

[jeff061]

Pats fans thank the Raiders for Moss. And a prelimanry thank you for whoever we draft .

Enjoy Seymour! I do hope he does well, but yeah, I don't see him playing up to the value Davis seems to have assigned to him.

[Danny]

You guys are forgetting Raiders drafting history. Chances are good, even if he has declined some, that Seymour will out produce whoever the Raiders would have ended up choosing.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Wait... this means that the Raiders won't be able to draft a QB with a strong arm or a fast WR with bad hands or any of the guys projected to go undrafted that year. Dammit, we won't be able to laugh at the pick!

[Galaxy]

I love the Pats fans in the comments.

Patriots confirm Seymour trade to Raiders - Reiss' Pieces - Boston.com

[jeff061]

Pats fans are stoopid. Course boards like that aren't the best anywhere.

1st round pick for a year of his production or nothing at all. I don't see them franchising him next year and an extension was out of the question.

[NiteMaestro]

I was surprised by this too...
But then again, maybe Davis has something up his sleeve...

That's the thing with the Raiders, you never really know.
We make fun of Russell, Hayward-Bay, etc... But shoot. Crabtree's not in camp, and Jamarcus won the starting job...

Davis isn't like Jerry Jones folks... He does know football.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by NiteMaestro

I was surprised by this too...
But then again, maybe Davis has something up his sleeve...

That's the thing with the Raiders, you never really know.
We make fun of Russell, Hayward-Bay, etc... But shoot. Crabtree's not in camp, and Jamarcus won the starting job...

Davis isn't like Jerry Jones folks... He does know football.

lol

[larrymcg421]

When I was in MP leagues, I always heard that the value of a draft pick gets transitioned a round down for each year it takes for the team to receive the pick. So then it sounds like the Raiders traded a 3rd round pick for Seymour.

*I always thought this logic was silly.

[jeff061]

Sounds silly to me.

2011 is also the 1st year of a potential capped rookie scale, I'm sure that wasn't lost on them.

[stevew]

Waiting for Seymour to sign a 6 year 90M extension any time now.

I don't think the Raiders will be bad in 2011fwiw. They are due to be mediocre any time now.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by NiteMaestro

Davis isn't like Jerry Jones folks... He does know football.

HaHa
Really?
snicker

[Galaxy]

What happens if by some chance the 2011 season is delayed or becomes a lock-out?

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

What happens if by some chance the 2011 season is delayed or becomes a lock-out?

Hell, at this rate, Al might be try to do it single-handedly

SI

[stevew]

they are having the 2011 draft regardless of a lockout.

[DaddyTorgo]

i was shocked to see this, but i'm happy with the deal. seymour wasn't going to be a cap-friendly contract, and he's certainly more replaceable than say Wilfork.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

What's all the talk of how the tRaiders do in 2011? Isn't a 2011 1st rd pick based on how they do in 2010?

[tucker rocky]

What if the Raiders, by some miracle hand-of-god, win the SB in 2010 season?

and

The Patriots ended up playing in the AFC Championship against the Raiders and lost in 2010 season?



Maybe the Patriots have an eye on someone in college, and want to secure a
vying spot?

Raiders are dumb for giving up a first rounder for a player on the backend of his career.

This is another reason Al Davis is way past sensible knowledge.

[NiteMaestro]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

HaHa
Really?
snicker

He may not be the Davis we once knew... But his history has to be worth 'something'...
The teams Davis builds are smashmouth run, with a QB that can launch for the moon and receivers you can't cover deep.
DLine gets after the QB forcing them to throw to man coverage CBs and head-hunting Safeties, while the LB crew crashes hard on the ball, stuffing the opponent's run game, forcing them to throw over the middle to 'footstepped' receivers.

The formula works, but takes risks and time to build.
It wasn't 'too' long ago that the Raiders were kicking everyone's ass... (Pre-TuckRule, remember?)

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by NiteMaestro

He may not be the Davis we once knew... But his history has to be worth 'something'...

His history means nothing.

Davis is an old fart who can't evolve. It takes time you say? Look at their last 4 drafts, they are a joke.

2009- 2 pro bowlers, one was the punter.
2008- 1 Pro bowler, the punter
2007- 1 pro bowler

None of those pro bowlers were drafted by the Raiders within the last 5 years. How much time are you giving him to turn it around?

They have drafter horribly and have given terrible free agent contracts ( Javon Walker- 6/55 mil)

They can't get anyone to come coach there, they have college coordinators turning the job down.


I'm not sure what you see about the Raiders that shows they are headed in the right direction. To me they are a total unorganized mess.

[NiteMaestro]

Originally Posted by Lathum

His history means nothing.

Davis is an old fart who can't evolve. It takes time you say? Look at their last 4 drafts, they are a joke.

2009- 2 pro bowlers, one was the punter.
2008- 1 Pro bowler, the punter
2007- 1 pro bowler

None of those pro bowlers were drafted by the Raiders within the last 5 years. How much time are you giving him to turn it around?

They have drafter horribly and have given terrible free agent contracts ( Javon Walker- 6/55 mil)

They can't get anyone to come coach there, they have college coordinators turning the job down.


I'm not sure what you see about the Raiders that shows they are headed in the right direction. To me they are a total unorganized mess.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all... They look horrible, and don't seem to have anything together. But I can't quite say it's Davis's fault.
He has the tools (granted, some errors, but no one's perfect), but it seems they just won't click together.

i.e., DeAngelo Hall was a shutdown CB out of Atlanta. He has the speed and athleticism to be great. Davis snagged him, and it seemed that him + the guy who's name I cannot spell or pronounce would be absolutely lethal. Turns out, Hall doesn't play press man well, and it blows up in Davis's face.
Bad move, but I don't think you can really blame him for it not working out. It seemed like a smart move!

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by NiteMaestro

I'm not disagreeing with you at all... They look horrible, and don't seem to have anything together. But I can't quite say it's Davis's fault.
He has the tools (granted, some errors, but no one's perfect), but it seems they just won't click together.

i.e., DeAngelo Hall was a shutdown CB out of Atlanta. He has the speed and athleticism to be great. Davis snagged him, and it seemed that him + the guy who's name I cannot spell or pronounce would be absolutely lethal. Turns out, Hall doesn't play press man well, and it blows up in Davis's face.
Bad move, but I don't think you can really blame him for it not working out. It seemed like a smart move!

sure you can blame him for it - he or his coaches/scouts didn't watch enough tape to make sure that Hall could play press man well knowing they would ask him to do that??

as for the guy who's name you can't pronounce - in this house we call him "Need more ass mothafucka"

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Sounds silly to me.

2011 is also the 1st year of a potential capped rookie scale, I'm sure that wasn't lost on them.

They also already have 3 2nd rounders next year, so that might also have been a (small) factor

[NiteMaestro]

'Needmore assmothafuka'?? Ah...
Thanks

You get my point though... He mad a move that looked smart, but it didn't work out.
I mean, alot of stuff's been rough in Oakland, but they have a great backfield now, a very good TE... Things are moving in bits and pieces, but it just won't come together.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by NiteMaestro

I'm not disagreeing with you at all... They look horrible, and don't seem to have anything together. But I can't quite say it's Davis's fault.
He has the tools (granted, some errors, but no one's perfect), but it seems they just won't click together.

Of course it is his fault, and I just don't see any of the tools you speak of.

Hall was a disaster who has major attitude issues, there is a reason the Falcons let him walk.

Davis is a control freak, instead of giving up the reigns and hiring a GM and coach that can evaluate talent he continues to take the Russels and DHB's of the world.

If it isn't Davis' fault who's fault is it?

[CU Tiger]

I remember Davis being darn near universally blasted for the Hall move.
And btw, Jerry has 3 rings since buying the team 89. Davis has 3 rings since 73?....

I am no Jerry Jones fan, though I am a diehard Cowboys fan, but to suggest the man can't build a team in TODAY'S NFL better than Al Davis is Laughable.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by NiteMaestro

I mean, alot of stuff's been rough in Oakland, but they have a great backfield now, .

A great backfield?

Bush had 421 yards and 3 TD's
Run DMC had 499 yards and 4 TD's
Fargus had 853 Yards and 1 TD

Statistically they were ranked 10th in rushing offense but only had 9 rushing TD's, tied for 4th worse.

And before you tell me they are young and on a bad team, Kevin Smith of the Lions had 976 yards and 8 TD's, one less than that whole Raiders team.

[NiteMaestro]

Hall left because of the drama in Atlanta.
Remember, he was Vick's teammate in college, so when that went down, it took a big toll on him.
Nonetheless, you cannot deny how solid he was in ATL... a gambler, yes, but still a problem on that side of the field.

Tools = McFadden, Fargas, Bush. A very good running back situation.
Russell's bazooka is a problem. With a solid run game, he's good enough to cause secondaries problems deeps.
Their TE Miller is very good and a willing blocker.
'Nnamdi Asomugha' is insane. Johnson stepped it up last year and is serviceable.
Janikowski will win games for you if needed (most of the time)
Huff is relatively solid, Morrison is a great MLB
and adding Ellis is helpful in passing situations.

Alot of pieces are there. But it's just not gelling, IMO.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

I am no Jerry Jones fan, though I am a diehard Cowboys fan, but to suggest the man can't build a team in TODAY'S NFL better than Al Davis is Laughable.

The Cowboys are a good head coach away from contending for the super bowl.

[NiteMaestro]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

I remember Davis being darn near universally blasted for the Hall move.
And btw, Jerry has 3 rings since buying the team 89. Davis has 3 rings since 73?....

I am no Jerry Jones fan, though I am a diehard Cowboys fan, but to suggest the man can't build a team in TODAY'S NFL better than Al Davis is Laughable.

I was just picking on Jones' penchant for ignoring chemistry in recent history , relax.
I may not be a 'Boys fan, but I have a good friend who is... I know how y'all can get

[NiteMaestro]

Originally Posted by Lathum

A great backfield?

Bush had 421 yards and 3 TD's
Run DMC had 499 yards and 4 TD's
Fargus had 853 Yards and 1 TD

Statistically they were ranked 10th in rushing offense but only had 9 rushing TD's, tied for 4th worse.

And before you tell me they are young and on a bad team, Kevin Smith of the Lions had 976 yards and 8 TD's, one less than that whole Raiders team.

IMO, that's a line or FB issue. Both are possible.
*edit - wrong term...*
What was their Red Zone efficiency?

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Lathum

The Cowboys are a good head coach away from contending for the super bowl.

yep...

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by NiteMaestro

IMO, that's a line or FB issue. Both are possible.
*edit - wrong term...*
What was their Red Zone efficiency?

whay does their red zone efficiency matter? And it can't be good, they had 9 total rushing TD's as a team.

Line problem? What about Smith, or Steve Slaton? Frank Gore?

I'm sorry, but it seems you are seeing something the rest of us aren't.

[NiteMaestro]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

yep...

Iunno, Romo is a wild card IMO.
No question the Boy's can get to the playoffs, but can they win?
Romo needs to show me a lil bit more before, personally.

[NiteMaestro]

Originally Posted by Lathum

whay does their red zone efficiency matter? And it can't be good, they had 9 total rushing TD's as a team.

Line problem? What about Smith, or Steve Slaton? Frank Gore?

I'm sorry, but it seems you are seeing something the rest of us aren't.

If they have the yards, then clearly either the line is very good, or the RBs are. Lack of red zone production then points to the latter, or bad playcalling (something I forgot).

Nonetheless, you can't be 10th in rushing and not have 'something' going for you...
I just feel that the Raiders aren't bad... More of that they have 'bad luck'.

(and no, I'm not a Raiders fan, FTR)

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by NiteMaestro

Iunno, Romo is a wild card IMO.
No question the Boy's can get to the playoffs, but can they win?
Romo needs to show me a lil bit more before, personally.

So Romo is a question mark but Russel is a threat?

As far as I can count the guy has had one great game in his life and that was in college.

[NiteMaestro]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

So Romo is a question mark but Russel is a threat?

As far as I can count the guy has had one great game in his life and that was in college.

Look at what I said.
I said he's a threat *throwing the ball deep*.
That's key.

He's not going to have alot of throws, but his YPA and YPC averages should be high because of it. He's a 'big play' QB. One you get for that and that alone.

Romo is a 'crafty' QB. He makes the throws he needs to, and is dangerous because of is 'savvy', not his arm. (not saying he can't launch it, but his arm strength isn't like Russell's)

Look at the Cowboy's offense now... They have a solid run game, a dominating defense, and their main receivers are *possession* and *route running* guys (though I like what I see from ur no.2 TE).

Russell will beat you deep.

Romo will pick you apart.

9/10 I'd pick Romo, but if I have the tools (deep threat receivers vs. possession guys) Russell may be a better choice.


So to clarify, Romo is a '?' in postseason play, because he hasn't done particularly well down the stretch...
Russell hasn't even gotten there, so I can't say anything about him as far as late/postseason moxy is concerned.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by NiteMaestro

'
I mean, alot of stuff's been rough in Oakland, but they have a great backfield now, .

Originally Posted by NiteMaestro

Look at the Cowboy's offense now... They have a solid run game,


.

so Oakland has a great backfield but Dallas' is only solid?

FWIW I'm a Giants fan so there is no love for the Cowgirls.

[NiteMaestro]

There's a difference.

A great 'backfield' does not guarantee a 'solid run game'. (though it does help)

A solid run game is a threat to score as well as productive.
I like to think of a solid run game as complimentary.

That does mean it may differ for each team, but the key is that it helps out the passing game, and vice versa.

Barber, Choice, and Jones are very good backs, and injuries keep me from calling them 'great' yet. But I do see the potential.
However, more importantly, they were 'effective', and 'solid'.

The Raiders didn't score from the run, so though the numbers show that these guys can run the ball, they didn't have a solid run 'game' because they were no threat to score.

Make sense?
(kinda crazy, i know... but i'm a lil crazy to begin with.)

[flounder]

Would it be fair to say that you think the Raiders are looking great in the preseason?

[NiteMaestro]

Eh... Not really.
Let me clarify. Great? No.

Better? Somewhat

Confident? No
Possible sleeper? Yes

With all the ruckus in Denver, I see Oakland challenging for 2nd in the division, with Kansas City possibly being 3rd (if things go their way... i.e. Cassel, continued drama in DEN... etc.)

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by flounder

Would it be fair to say that you think the Raiders are looking great in the preseason?

hahahahahahahahaha


awesome!

[bulletsponge]

Originally Posted by Danny

You guys are forgetting Raiders drafting history. Chances are good, even if he has declined some, that Seymour will out produce whoever the Raiders would have ended up choosing.

aww crap! thank you patriots for ruining that draft for us all

[SteveMax58]

The problem with the Raiders(i.e. Al Davis' decision-making) is that they(he) honestly believe that better athletes equates to better football players. And...even if that was right all things considered...they believe the better athlete is also THAT much faster/stronger/etc. than the rest of the athletes instead of realizing precise execution of plays will net you better results over the long haul.

There are so many factors that go into building a team these days that you didn't need to consider (because everybody else didn't either) compared to Al's heyday. You have to have a "system". And you need players for that "system".

Run the ball well and throw deep is not a "system"...it's a cliche. That's like saying I'm a daytrader and my strategy is to buy low and sell high...no shit.

Good coaches understand the above and realize that picking a bunch of athletes that excelled in other team's "systems" isn't how you get the most productive players for your own. They realize it's a no-win situation and requires too many fortunate occurrences to be successful. So good/proven coaches will not bother with Al's BS when push comes to shove. Gruden was able to succeed to a degree because he was smart enough to adapt to Al's nonsense, fortunate enough to have had a solid veteran QB for his offense, and desparate enough due to his age at the time. Notice he was smart enough to get out of there too.

They also realize that any coach who has his nuts cutoff by the owner is at a significant disadvantage when trying to motivate and cultivate a team. Those players brought in via free agency should feel like the coach brought me in...not Al Davis...and if I half-ass it for this coach, I will not be back because the coach is the only reason I'm here in the first place. It's management 101.

I will say this much...the Raiders are definitely moving closer to success every year...unfortunately that's only because Al is closer to dying. I like and admire Al Davis for what he did for football...but he has got to get his ass out of football decisions.

[NiteMaestro]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

Run the ball well and throw deep is not a "system"...it's a cliche. That's like saying I'm a daytrader and my strategy is to buy low and sell high...no shit.

Good point.
'Nuff said.

[NiteMaestro]

Check the typo...
When did the Pat's draft Seymour?

2011? ROTF

[larrymcg421]

"Hey Richard, how's it going?"

"Pretty good. I'm really excited about the season. We got a great team. I look forward to playing for another Superbowl."

"Yeah, about that..."


**************

"Hey Richard, how's it going?"

"Pretty good. I'm excited to help you guys rebuild."

"Great. go line up for the 40 yard dash. The top 22 times will make the starting lineup."

"Uhhhhh....."