Golf coming back to Wolverine Studios

[Gary Gorski]

Just thought I would pass the word around that I'm bringing back the golf game this summer and we put up our first blog post showing off the new look and talking about some new things.

The game used to be called Total Pro Golf but that was six years ago and there are a ton of changes and basically the entire thing was rebuilt so I've changed the name to Draft Day Sports: Pro Golf to fit the rest of the DDS line. The UI is brand new and hopefully well received because it will then go into the rest of the DDS line for 2019 - so even if you don't care about golf check out the blog to see our new ideas for look of the next version of DDS games.

Also could use a beta tester or two maybe from FOFC if anyone here is really into a golf sim. Just send me an email using the contact form on the Wolverine Studios website if you are interested.

Thanks as always for the support.

Golf returns this summer at Wolverine Studios - get your tee time!

[heybrad]

Cool. I'll be watching.

[Capital]

The initial screenshots look beautiful. I'll be watching as well.

[Ramzavail]

looks awesome, Gary

[Gary Gorski]

New blog post today with more screenshots and news. Release date is 7/17. Hope to see some of you guys there!

https://www.wolverinestudios.com/201...orts-pro-golf/

[Gary Gorski]

For those interested the game is now available. Here's the homepage for it

https://www.wolverinestudios.com/dra...lf-simulation/

Game is 14.99 and comes with two really beautiful courses. Three more are available in a course pack for 12 bucks. The courses are unlike anything in simulation golf games.

There is a fully functional free demo you can try out first at the above link and if you purchase before Friday and use code PROGOLF it will knock 10% off the game and any courses you buy.

Hope to see some of you around there.

[Mota]

Thanks Gary.

So far I am enjoying the new interface. Been looking forward to playing a career sim type golf game for a while!

[TexasT]

So without the add on courses when you play a career you just play on two courses?

[korme]

Yep it's a complete money grab. It's the same game as 6 or whatever years ago except the UI is slightly smoother. The only difference is instead of so many awesome courses, now there are two. You can buy three more for nearly the same price as the entire game. And I'm the sucker who did that. The joke is that you can create a course and share it for free but if you look at the course creator it's like an incomplete MS Paint app. You have to have a masters in Gary's program to even begin creating one hole. This is a bullshit cash grab. I'm very disappointed.

[korme]

Originally Posted by TexasT

So without the add on courses when you play a career you just play on two courses?

Just in case this isn't clear, let's emphasize the game was released as complete with 2 courses. A golf game with *2* courses.

And you can spend almost the same amount as the entire game for a whole *3* more courses.

Buyer beware.

[Mota]

Not exactly a cash grab, the price of the base game is the lowest I've seen on day 1 for a text sim in a long time. If you feel invested in the game, you can buy more courses. If you're not a hardcore player, just play the base game.

I did buy the extra course pack. I've only played one round so far. I do like the new XP / star progression system. So far, I find the gameplay window for the actual golfing is too small and that it is difficult to control. Would like to have more of the screen be usable. I'd also appreciate the ability to save during a round, this is the type of game you might play for 10-15 minutes, and playing 9 holes might be what I want to do today, and finish the round later on.

I like the putting, it is simple, but there is some strategy involved.

[AlexB]

It’s one of the things that has always put me off this game. I had the first one, loved the concept, hated the inaccuracy of the shots, and hated the number of golf courses.

I understand the shot mechanics have improved hugely, but until a game based on seasonal play at multiple levels on multiple tours has at least season’s worth of courses for each tour, I’m not interested.

It’s the equivalent of releasing FOF with two teams and saying, well you add your own teams. Not the point - a seasonal management game needs to have a season’s worth of universe to pull you into the game world.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by korme

Yep it's a complete money grab. It's the same game as 6 or whatever years ago except the UI is slightly smoother. The only difference is instead of so many awesome courses, now there are two. You can buy three more for nearly the same price as the entire game. And I'm the sucker who did that. The joke is that you can create a course and share it for free but if you look at the course creator it's like an incomplete MS Paint app. You have to have a masters in Gary's program to even begin creating one hole. This is a bullshit cash grab. I'm very disappointed.

I take exception with this - first of all the fact that it comes with two courses is not a surprise. It's stated in this thread, on the game's info page and right on the webstore page. So with the coupon I gave everyone on FOFC in this thread I'm asking you to pay about $24 for a brand new game with 5 courses.

And it is absolutely NOT the same game as 6 years ago. Where should we start with the changes? Well I guess we can start with the entire code being rewritten since the last one was done using VB6. The UI is not "slightly smoother" - it is totally redone not only in design but also in the ability to play in full screen or windowed mode. The on course play has changed with the addition of the input needed for putting strategy. Improvements have been made to the game and simulation engine to make playing majors much more difficult. I ripped out the "lets make you spend money on houses and cars" bit and instead replaced it with a brand new "XP stars" training system which not only gives you something useful to do with all the cash you can build up if you're really good but it adds more strategy to the game as your use of money for training directly impacts how good your golfer can become and you get full control of the areas in which he improves rather than randomly becoming better in some category. The tour scheduled is totally changed to remove Q-school and to change the season schedule to start in the fall rather than in January. The tour formats have changed to match the current formats and rules for moving up and down - PGA players who don't qualify for the cup chase at the end crossover and play in the final tournaments on the lower circuit to attempt to retain their tour card. There's a built in player generator so all you have to do is enter some basic bio info and some stats in a provided database and the game will spit out real player ratings for you or anyone else who would like to make a real player mod (so there goes the potential "cash grab" of selling season disks). Those are just the easy changes to list off the top of my head.

As for the course designer there's a very simple one included - you click and drop a fairway square, a green square, a sand square...its nothing fancy but its much quicker than it used to be and you could very quickly knock out courses even if you only wanted to use them for simulation purposes. Basically the courses look like SimGolf ones. You don't have to know anything about design, spend hours/days/weeks fooling around with complicated stuff - you can just click and knock one out. I don't know what's so difficult that you feel you need a masters to do it - there's a tutorial included in the game that tells you exactly what to do as well and if you think designing a course that way is difficult then you can only imagine what I am doing to do the courses that I am.

I understand people who may not enjoy a simulation golf game. I understand those who say they would like the game but want to wait for more courses (either paid or shared) to be available. That's all fine but when you call it a "bullshit cash grab" I take offense because it absolutely isn't and that's a cheap shot at myself and my reputation. By all means if you feel that even though everything was clearly stated that somehow I suckered you into a cash grab then by all means PM me your order ID and I'll have the money refunded to you but I'm not going to let you say these sort of things about me without defending myself.

[nilodor]

Can someone explain how the golf portion works? I was looking for it in the video but didn't see it. From some of the wording in the blog and here it sounds like you are doing the actual golfing. Is it like how you could play a round in sim golf but with a bit more to the putting? Or is it just a straight GM style sim where you aren't in control of your player?

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by nilodor

Can someone explain how the golf portion works? I was looking for it in the video but didn't see it. From some of the wording in the blog and here it sounds like you are doing the actual golfing. Is it like how you could play a round in sim golf but with a bit more to the putting? Or is it just a straight GM style sim where you aren't in control of your player?

You can do anything you want - you can sim the events, you can watch the event with the AI golfing for you or you can play the event yourself either with a one click mode or a tri-click mode.

I highly encourage you to try out the free demo - its the complete game (it lets you play one full season). That way you can check out everything and I'm always happy to answer questions.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by AlexB

It’s the equivalent of releasing FOF with two teams and saying, well you add your own teams. Not the point - a seasonal management game needs to have a season’s worth of universe to pull you into the game world.

That's really not a good comparison but I have no issue with people who want to wait for more courses.

One thing with PC golf sims is that they're very expensive. One game seems to be $50 and you get the game, one course and one card set (which I assume is like a real player ratings thing) and add on courses appear to be $20 EACH. I don't know if that game has a career option and the courses certainly don't look like ours. For the low price of $200 you get 7 courses and 7 card sets.

I purposely did the game this way to let people in cheap and to not only allow more courses to be purchased pretty cheaply but to allow people to upgrade what they want, when they want. If someone is happy with just the game and two really nice courses then they only have to pay $15. Maybe they're perfectly happy with making all the rest of the courses themselves and all they ever spend is $15 and if that makes them happy - wonderful. Why should they be forced to pay our standard $35 (or more) if that would be enough to make them happy?

For those who want more - you can get more. You can add on 3 more today and we will have more courses (I'm starting work on the next 3 already). If the old courses would have worked I would have included them as well - but unlike what one poster thinks a GREAT deal of work went into changing things and they were no longer compatible. Other golf games might claim you get X courses but most of them were in a prior version - its not X new courses and you're paying $45-60 (or more) for that.

This is the ground floor for DDSPG and I don't really intend to do DDSPG2019 or DDSPG2 or whatever unless I can do something really amazing. I think the game is really good the way it is and I would prefer to just keep it fresh with putting out new courses over time and if you or anyone else wants to wait and see for more courses I'm totally ok with that but I don't like the impression that somehow the game is not complete because it absolutely is - I've just decided to try something new here in giving people a choice of what they want.

[BYU 14]

I don't feel the need to defend Gary, but he has always been upstanding in my dealings with him and it is perfectly clear what you are getting. If you don't want to create your own course or need 40 course to play don't buy the game.

Otherwise it is a pretty solid value for the price point IMO. Not like all this is hidden in the fine print.

[SirFozzie]

I'll be picking this up on steam. I remember a pretty good mod pool for TPG (I used to review courses, people mad beautiful courses

[digamma]

I'm confused about the game. With the tour mode, are the events just at the two courses in the game or are there sim courses that are not "playable"?

[bhlloy]

Playing devils advocate for a second though, the Steam description is "Prepare for your journey to becoming one of golf's all-time greats in this career based golf game. Choose one of six tours to start on and develop your golfer as you battle the rest of the tour for the tournament cup chases or just to stay alive on the tour without going broke!"

If there are 2 or 6 courses offered, you can understand how a lot of people are going to be seriously mislead by that description, not matter what the price point is. I don't know what the "right" number of courses is but for the scope of the game that is being described above, it sure as hell isn't single digits.

Gary, I hope you don't take this personally, just some feedback. Nothing but respect for the games you put out and I'm sure I'll enjoy it at some point.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by digamma

I'm confused about the game. With the tour mode, are the events just at the two courses in the game or are there sim courses that are not "playable"?

The events default to switch between the two courses. Whenever you add more courses to your course directory you can edit the schedule by hand or at random to assign those courses to the tournaments.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Playing devils advocate for a second though, the Steam description is "Prepare for your journey to becoming one of golf's all-time greats in this career based golf game. Choose one of six tours to start on and develop your golfer as you battle the rest of the tour for the tournament cup chases or just to stay alive on the tour without going broke!"

If there are 2 or 6 courses offered, you can understand how a lot of people are going to be seriously mislead by that description, not matter what the price point is. I don't know what the "right" number of courses is but for the scope of the game that is being described above, it sure as hell isn't single digits.

Gary, I hope you don't take this personally, just some feedback. Nothing but respect for the games you put out and I'm sure I'll enjoy it at some point.

I'm not sure what's misleading in that description.

Is it a career sim? Yes.

Are there six tours to play on? Yes - 3 American, 3 Euro with Jr/Pro/Sr on each.

Do you play against the other players on tour, develop your golfer, try to win the cup chases and try to not lose the game by running out of money? Yes, yes, yes and yes.

I'm not sure what is misleading about that?

EDIT TO ADD : I do appreciate you mentioning the Steam description though because I checked the store page and I had not published apparently my last update to the description which does mention that there are two premium courses included, a free course designer and other courses available for purchase

[bhlloy]

I think mentioning the number of courses in the description is wise and probably helps a lot.

To me, a career golf sim needs to have more than 2 or 5 courses to play on. Just my opinion, and I'm sure a lot of your customers will agree. Bear in mind most of people who come in through Steam are not going to have the context of this forum or the official forums and won't know the potential for the community to generate a large number of additional premium courses.

Hope the release goes well and my concerns are unfounded though

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

To me, a career golf sim needs to have more than 2 or 5 courses to play on.

I don't disagree with this and like I said I have no problem with people who say I like the idea but I will check back when there are X courses available.

I take issue with the poster who declared this a "bullshit cash grab" - I've been very clear about what it is and its priced accordingly and my ultimate goal is to hope that the community can provide some basic courses and as time goes on I hope there is a demand for me to provide more premium courses.

I've been totally up front about all of it - DDSPG is NOT TPG4. Everything changed to make it a BETTER experience and that meant I gave up all of the old course work I had done as well as all of the work others had done in doing courses (many of which were lost to the internet anyway) so DDSPG is square one. If people like the concept and want to support from day one, I love it. If people like the idea but want to wait and see and check in on it in six months - go for it. If someone just doesn't like the concept then so be it.

[SlyBelle1]

First I respect everyone's opinion on what they feel is a good pricing model for games, everyone is entitled to their own thoughts.

But, for those of you who believe the model is not correct or good, what is your REALISTIC recommendation for a golf game? Including a full schedule of courses for a one-time low price is not realistic based on the effort required to create a course.

I believe some people mentioned this should be like other sports games....but that is not possible since golf is entirely different. With football, hockey, basketball, etc......the playing surface is roughly the same for all the venues since they are of regulation sizes. With golf, every course, every hole, and every shot is unique and that is what makes golf different. The amount of work to create that kind of experience is million times bigger than making standard fields of play for the other sports. So yes football can include 32 stadiums because they aren't different (besides logos, end zone art, etc.) but for golf, not possible.

And if you take a look at other golf games on the market (although none career based), very similar models although higher costs.

- ASG Golf - Initial purchase is $50 and only includes (1) course...additional courses $20..does include a golf season ***

- ActionPC Golf - Initial purchase is $45 and includes (10) courses...additional courses $12...does include a golf season ***

- Inside the Cup! - Initial purchase is $45 and includes (1) course...additional courses...$20...does include a golf season $20

*** Although I listed the games here, I have no problem with their model and fully support them as good games.

So again, just really interested in realistic recommendations on how people would do it. If you truly would expect to have every course playable in a 45 event schedule, the cost of that game would be like $500+ to cover the required time and effort.

And for the record, I don't believe Gary has done anything dishonest or questionable.....he has totally been up front with everything about this game whether people agree with it or not. There is even a FREE demo available where people can try it out before even buying it...not many game companies do that.

[bhlloy]

I'm just going to leave this here for you, somewhat tongue in cheek. But it is a little surprising to see Scotland in and Wales left out, given the success of Woosnam and a number of lesser known players who have won major events. And we definitely are not part of England.

Category:Welsh golfers - Wikipedia
Category:Swiss golfers - Wikipedia

[AlexB]

In response to Sly, my gripe is the number of courses, not the price. And no, no-ones conning anyone - what you get is clear, and that’s why I’m not interested atm. However, with the right number of courses, I’d consider the game, at a ‘usual’ text sim price of up to £40 ($50 roughly).

However, you raise an interesting point - what is the ‘right’ number, and does that impact on price? While I don’t truly expect 50+ courses for each of the 6 tours, i do expect a hell of a lot more than 2, or even 6. Enough to do a season for sure though, so that's around 50.

And I think from memory you have three US tours and three European tours? So on that basis, each tour on the continent can use te same courses, so 100 would be the number for me.

But that’s use of the word expect in terms of making it interesting enough for me to consider personally, others may differ.

Text sims need a realistic universe to pull people into the game world: in an NFL world that isn’t the stadia, it’s the teams and players. That's why I believe my analogy was fair above - an NFL text sim needs 32 teams (i.e. including players) for it to be realistic enough for players to imagine the game world.

A golf game needs enough different courses to avoid repetition which breaks any immersion into the game world.
‘A great win for Tiger today folks at Torrey Pines. Join us next week at the Doral for the next tournamentin the PGA Tour, which although it looks exactly like St Andrews, you gotta believe us when we say it’s different’

To be frank, my personal view is that if the costs of producing the required number of courses to achieve to achieve the required level of immersion do not allow a price point that people will pay, the business model for the game is flawed.

The alternative is that by the 3rd edition, you hopefully have a hardcore fan base, of which a number would prepare courses in advance of the release of the game, to a set template you create, so that they all fit the look and feel of the game.

You give these fans a free game copy, you include the courses in the release of the game: then you have a realstic number of courses to create the game world and achieve what you want to based on the game blurb.

[SlyBelle1]

thanks for the feedback and again appreciate everyone’s viewpoint. personally, think it is unrealistic and feasible to include 50-100 playable courses with the game and for the price to remain around $40-$50. to the best of my knowledge there isn’t a single golf game past or present (including links, ea sports, etc) that has ever done that for the same reason gary can’t. beyond the effort and cost, it takes a lot of time to create.

as for comparing to football, although i understand your point about 32 teams, the real equal to golf is the individual players which fictional player’s are included with the ability to mod real names. both types of games have players, although one is team based. if every part of the football field was different per every square feet like in golf (like slopes, divots, lies, speed, breaks, etc), i am pretty sure football games would struggle to include 32 unique playing experiences for a reasonable price. at least to me, golf courses have no comparison to the other sports since literally every course, hole, and shot are different which requires a lot of work to design and implement. even with teams, it’s typically only ratings differences which is either generated for fictional players or from real world stats that are easily obtained.

but with all that said, i completely understand the need and desire for people to want a gaming world that represents the real life. we all want that. i just thinking getting there in the world of golf is different and requires time to get there. otherwise, the alternative is for developers to not even try and provide us a golfing experience which personally i hope never happens since i enjoy the sport.

[AlexB]

Don’t get me wrong, I can definitely see the dilemma as a developer and producer.

As a (potential) end user the logistics of the game creation aren’t the most important factor, just the end result. I hope there is a solution as i also agree the more quality text sims the better as it is already a niche market.

I've edited my previous post just to put some punctuation in the penultimate paragraph; no actual words have changed!

[SlyBelle1]

Originally Posted by AlexB

As a (potential) end user the logistics of the game creation aren’t the most important factor, just the end result. I hope there is a solution as i also agree the more quality text sims the better as it is already a niche market.

Yep, I understand that you are just providing the reason you won't make the purchase. Hoping still some day you give it a try, even the demo to see if you might like it. In the mean time, I am hoping all these developers continue trying to find a way to bring these great games to us...it will be a sad day when text sims cease to exist.

[Young Drachma]

Have wanted a simulation golf game for a while, so I'm intrigued enough to check out the demo.

[Gary Gorski]

Figured I'd update this thread once more - we've got another new course pack available for the game and for anyone who was waiting for a more robust bundle of things we're also selling a Deluxe Edition which will give you the original game plus all of our add on courses all in one package.

[Gary Gorski]

Just wanted to let you guys know also that one of our forum contributors there decided to do a 2018 RW PGA Tour Players mod for the game so if you like playing with real guys there is one available now.

https://www.wolverinestudios.com/boa...?f=279&t=29150