The 2018 World Cup

[MIJB#19]

If the rules say that goal is legit, then the rules on offside are more confusing than I ever thought or knew about.

[MIJB#19]

The Panama goal means England and Belgium are now level in goal difference and in goals scored, meaning the next tie-breaker is the lower number of yellow (and red) cards collected. Imagine that going into the last game. Belgium got 3 bookings, England go their 2nd today. So they're currently ahead of Belgium.

[Buccaneer]

Unfortunate results this morning. The success of the World Cup depends upon England being eliminated (too many Tottenham players) and to a lesser extent, Brazil. Was hoping Panama would have done something.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

If the rules say that goal is legit, then the rules on offside are more confusing than I ever thought or knew about.

Kane’s 3rd? The heel of the defender behind him was in line with Kane

Not getting too carried away: yes it’s nice to score 8 goals in two games, but:
We’ve played two poor sides
It took a last minute goal to beat Tunisia
Panama could have equalised at 1-0 which may have changed the game
Of the eight goals, six have come from set pieces (three corners, two pens [one of which was also from a corner] and a free kick, and one was a deflected shot

Belgium have exactly the same overall record against the same two sides, but only needed one penalty, i think the rest were all in open play

Although it’s good to be throuh already especially after seeing the travails of the powerhouses, I want to wait until we play some better opposition before making any proper evaluation

[MIJB#19]

7 pointless teams eliminated now. South Korea is still alive (need to beat Germany and Sweden to lose to Mexico), while the Poland-Colombia loser will be eliminated if Japan-Senegal ends in a draw or in a victory for the game 3 opponent of that Poland-Colombia loser.
I thought it was unprecedented, but looking at the previous 32-team tournaments, the 2006 tournament also had 7 teams eliminated after 2 games:

2018, 7+ teams: Egypt and Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Peru, Costa Rica, Panama and Tunisia
2014, 5 teams: Cameroon, Australia and Spain, England, Bosnia-Herzegovina
2010, 2 teams: Cameroon, North Korea
2006, 7 teams: Costa Rica and Poland, Paraguay, Ivory Coast and Serbia & Montenegro, Iran, Togo
2002, 5 teams: Slovenia, China, Poland, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria
1998, 6: Saudi Arabia, South Korea, USA, Tunisia, Jamaica and Japan

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by AlexB

Kane’s 3rd? The heel of the defender behind him was in line with Kane

On the replays it appeared (to me) that Kane was offside. But if I saw incorrectly, I stand corrected.

[AlexB]

I thought so too originally, but they showed a graphic with a line drawn across the field that showed it exactly level

[miami_fan]

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/06/24/f...ntl/index.html

[MIJB#19]

Nice shot from Inui.

[MIJB#19]

Impressive offside trap from Japan there.

[OldGiants]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Is it too early to bitch about Serbia?

You mean the murdering, genocidal cocksuckers?


https://deadspin.com/fifa-will-inves...ntr-1827080111


I think I will be making that 'Albanian Eagle' gesture to anyone I come across who doesn't have enough vowels in their name.

[kingfc22]

Seriously. How did we not get more points than Panama in the Hex?

[EagleFan]

I have never wanted to see a tie this much in my life... and two 1 goal games to finish the round. 4 teams, 4 points each, 0 gd for all...

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

Seriously. How did we not get more points than Panama in the Hex?

We suck...

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

Seriously. How did we not get more points than Panama in the Hex?

We played with no urgency and with no system. Most of the games I watched, we kicked the ball around and hoped either Pulisic or Dempsey would make something happen.

Heck, we lost to Trinidad and Tobago for crying out loud.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

We played with no urgency and with no system. Most of the games I watched, we kicked the ball around and hoped either Pulisic or Dempsey would make something happen.

Heck, we lost to Trinidad and Tobago for crying out loud.

Karma for trying to get soccer and the awful MLS going in this country. Leave soccer to the real leagues and players elsewhere in the world.

[kingfc22]

Next time you "injure your ankle" just remember to pour some water on it.

Works like a charm.

[bhlloy]

This ref is so far out of his depth it’s painful.

It’s also really interesting to me that there are so many more South American fans at these games than European. Would be interested to know if it’s the Putin/international relations issue or whether it’s just a once in a lifetime trip if you are from Colombia but lesser so if you are from Poland.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

It’s also really interesting to me that there are so many more South American fans at these games than European. Would be interested to know if it’s the Putin/international relations issue or whether it’s just a once in a lifetime trip if you are from Colombia but lesser so if you are from Poland.

Poland is one of many countries that had political issues with Russia long before Putin was born.

But at the same time I'm also surprised by how loaded this stadium is with Colombia fans. Quite enough to avoid the "Russia, Russia" chants I've heard during other matches this tournament.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

I have never wanted to see a tie this much in my life... and two 1 goal games to finish the round. 4 teams, 4 points each, 0 gd for all...

Group E, USA 94.
Mexico won the group on goals scored, Norway got eliminated on that same metric. Ireland got second place on head to head win over Italy. Whom eventually reached the final despite their underwhelming group play.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Group E, USA 94.
Mexico won the group on goals scored, Norway got eliminated on that same metric. Ireland got second place on head to head win over Italy. Whom eventually reached the final despite their underwhelming group play.

I wasn't watching soccer (sorry) back then so I want to see this happen.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

Next time you "injure your ankle" just remember to pour some water on it.

Works like a charm.

More of that liquid required now.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

I wasn't watching soccer (sorry) back then so I want to see this happen.

just mentioning that it actually happened before.
It would fit with this group though.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

just mentioning that it actually happened before.
It would fit with this group though.

or a three-way tie with 5 points, with Poland far behind.

Edit: of course, that ship sailed before today's games already.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Poland is one of many countries that had political issues with Russia long before Putin was born.

But at the same time I'm also surprised by how loaded this stadium is with Colombia fans. Quite enough to avoid the "Russia, Russia" chants I've heard during other matches this tournament.

No doubt. This isn’t the first game that has been loaded with South American fans though either. It’s been notable on a number of occasions.

I do think there’s an element of fans wanting to take a once in a lifetime trip to watch their teams in a World Cup. I remember being surprised how many Europeans went to South Africa and Brazil, for example.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

No doubt. This isn’t the first game that has been loaded with South American fans though either. It’s been notable on a number of occasions.

I do think there’s an element of fans wanting to take a once in a lifetime trip to watch their teams in a World Cup. I remember being surprised how many Europeans went to South Africa and Brazil, for example.

The fear of violence buildup to this World Cup seemed to be directed at Europeans especially the English, Africans or people of African descent, and homosexuals specifically. For South Africa and Brazil, it seemed more generalized. I don’t remember reading or seeing anything in the media that indicated that South Americans would be at any more risk in Russia than they were in South Africa or Brazil. That was not the case for the groups I listed above.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Karma for trying to get soccer and the awful MLS going in this country. Leave soccer to the real leagues and players elsewhere in the world.

*Yawn* This MLS hatred is just silly now. I just watched a fantastic Atlanta United v. Portland Timbers match at Mercedes Benz Stadium this afternoon. If you want to deprive yourself of that, then that's your loss, not this country's.

[Buccaneer]

LOL. I would have thought you would be the eurosnob and not me. I have watched fantastic matches at the collegiate club level but I know where to go to spend my limited time watching the best leagues.

[ISiddiqui]

I have never been a Eurosnob. I'd be more a Eurosnob-snob, looking down on those who would scoff at the local league while trying to act European .

Heck, I used to watch far more English Premier League in the past, but I just can't really be bothered. I mean if I want to watch the best leagues, I'll just watch Spain . Though I'm actually trying to get more into LigaMX these days in addition to MLS.

[MIJB#19]

There's nothing 'euro-whatever' about liking the English or Spanish league. In all but maybe 2 or 3 countries in the world those two leagues are more interesting to watch than the local leagues, simply because it's better quality and more attractive to watch. Are Europeans that like to watch the NBA or NHL NorthAmerisnobs? And what would you call somebody that boycotted the UEFA Champions' League? Europhobe? Moneyphobe?

But that's about to get off topic.


How about that last second Saudi Arabia victory and the unsurprising Russia drubbing?

[MIJB#19]

Spain vs Portugal for the group victory is currently decided based on the number of yellow cards received. I would find it hilarious if Spain wins 1-0 and Portugal wins 1-0 in the last minute, with Ronaldo taking his shirt off for a tie-breaking yellow card too many.

[AlexB]

If England Belgium is a draw, the group will be decided on yellow cards. Both sides will know the knock out tree by then... we have one yellow less than the Belgians atm.

Could we see both sides lining up to insult the referee if it’s tied near the end of the game, just to get more yellows to finish second if it might mean an easier pathway?

TBH I don’t think it will matter - if Belgium play a strong side I think they are favourites to win

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by AlexB

If England Belgium is a draw, the group will be decided on yellow cards. Both sides will know the knock out tree by then... we have one yellow less than the Belgians atm.

Could we see both sides lining up to insult the referee if it’s tied near the end of the game, just to get more yellows to finish second if it might mean an easier pathway?

TBH I don’t think it will matter - if Belgium play a strong side I think they are favourites to win

That's a plausible scenario that has gone around here as well. Or let the English pick up a single yellow and let the coin flip decided.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

There's nothing 'euro-whatever' about liking the English or Spanish league. In all but maybe 2 or 3 countries in the world those two leagues are more interesting to watch than the local leagues, simply because it's better quality and more attractive to watch.

And in those countries do fans scoff at rooting for the local teams and refuse to do so because of the quality of the bigger leagues? And become supporters of those bigger league teams all the while proclaiming they'll never watch their local league. Because I'm fairly sure that in plenty of countries, folks root for their local team AND watch the bigger league.

[kingfc22]

Both of these games are completely out of hand right now.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

Both of these games are completely out of hand right now.

They were bonkers in the last 15 minutes for sure. Iran nearly got a game winner, how would that have gone over after that weak handball?

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

And in those countries do fans scoff at rooting for the local teams and refuse to do so because of the quality of the bigger leagues? And become supporters of those bigger league teams all the while proclaiming they'll never watch their local league. Because I'm fairly sure that in plenty of countries, folks root for their local team AND watch the bigger league.

My longer answer timed out, but the short answer is "yes". Except that in this context bigger league should read bigger club.
Here (the Netherlands) either you're on the Ajax or Feyenoord bandwagon, or you get mocked for rooting for a small club. Yes, even if that 'small' club is 1988 European champions cup winner PSV. Because why would you root for a tiny club that never wins?
That's not how I look at things, bu that's the soccer culture I perceive here.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Butter

They were bonkers in the last 15 minutes for sure. Iran nearly got a game winner, how would that have gone over after that weak handball?

that would have been something, it would have been the group winning goal.

[AlexB]

The Iran Portugal game became a joke with VAR: the system has worked well in some games, not so much in others, and this one might have been the worst of all

The handball was not clear & obvious, which is supposed to be the defining factor for use of the VAR system, but ultimately it was a 50:50 call. Harsh if given, might have gotten away with one if not.

But to take four and half minutes to get from incident for the penalty being taken is too long. The length of time in particular it took for the VAR official to refer it to the referee was a joke, and he had to view it a few times - surely the definition of clear & obvious is you see it once and immediately see you’ve made a howler

Players are not supposed to call for VAR - yeah, that’s working well. Book any coach/manager who makes the VAR signal, like they do with the imaginary yellow card... oh, yeah again.

Football has let players get away with antics for so long now it is ingrained, and VAR has turned into another way footballers can shame themselves with prima donna antics.

The game itself would have been great if the players hadn't been trying to play the rules. It used to be dive to try and get a penalty, now it’s quickly becoming dive to maybe get a penalty, maybe get a VAR review. Instead of stopping cheating, it may actually be encouraging it as there are two chances, and watch anything in slow-mo enough and you begin to see something that’s not there.

TBH the game had drama and was engrossing, but only for the bad reasons, and only as a novelty. Football has to clamp down on the gamemanship, but shows no inclination to try and do so.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by AlexB

The Iran Portugal game became a joke with VAR: the system has worked well in some games, not so much in others, and this one might have been the worst of all

The handball was not clear & obvious, which is supposed to be the defining factor for use of the VAR system, but ultimately it was a 50:50 call. Harsh if given, might have gotten away with one if not.

I think you've hit the nail on the head with VAR here - there's a TON (pick a number) of incidents in a game that can technically be a penalty, but we've all kinda agreed that we don't really want to see games ending 5-4 with 6 PK's and maybe a couple of red cards thrown in because it's going to ruin games in a hurry. So, there's a whole class of fouls in the box that aren't called that are fouls almost anywhere else on the pitch - unintentional handball, blatant holding at set pieces, obstruction - we might disagree where the line is of what is and what shouldn't be a penalty but I'm not sure too many people want to see the scenario where VAR is used to call absolutely everything that is a PK by the letter of the law every time. So we use this "clear and obvious error" kind of as a nudge nudge, wink wink way to say "let's continue to allow the referees some sort of common sense so we don't have to have 8 VAR referrals and 6 penalties every single game".

The real problem is, this isn't how replay is supposed to work in any common sense applied fashion in sport. Replay is supposed to be for things that are cut and dried, was it an offense or not, decided by technology or at least utilizing technology and replay to make a black and white call. It's why hockey has got itself in trouble with referees trying to watch goaltender interference calls on a tiny IPAD and then making a snap judgement decision, but at least those are relatively infrequent. There are way more borderline PK calls in an average soccer game, so the situation is just going to get more out of hand.

I'm not sure what the solution is now you've opened Pandora's box to be honest. It's just begging for a major decision in a final to be decided or not decided by VAR, everyone to lose their minds and the scope to be expanded. The scope of replay always expands with the next controversional call that in theory could have been fixed.

And I completely agree with you, it's just going to get worse and worse as players and manager cotton on that they can influence a referees decision to go to VAR. The common sense thing for FIFA to do would be to take it completely out of the referees hand and make any player suggesting to a referee to use VAR an immediate yellow, but when has FIFA ever done the common sense thing.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

My longer answer timed out, but the short answer is "yes". Except that in this context bigger league should read bigger club.
Here (the Netherlands) either you're on the Ajax or Feyenoord bandwagon, or you get mocked for rooting for a small club. Yes, even if that 'small' club is 1988 European champions cup winner PSV. Because why would you root for a tiny club that never wins?
That's not how I look at things, bu that's the soccer culture I perceive here.

The last line is key. That's now how you look at things. I'd imagine you'd think that sort of soccer culture is silly and unduly snobbish.

[Arles]

The best parallel to this VAR system for determining penalties on these 50-50 judgement calls would be if we used replay to determining holding calls. "70 yard TD by Brady and the celebration begins! Wait, it looks like the left guard may be have been potentially holding. We are going to need to take a 5-minute break to analyze his hand placement before allowing the TD"

It should be limited to a 2-minute review by a FIFA ref in a central office. If, after two minutes, no definitive change can be made - you move on. In most situations, that two minutes can happen while the field ref is consulting with his linesman or making his own decision. If the VAR ref isn't 110%, you go with the ref on the field. In the Portugal case, no penalty was called on the field, so none should have been given.

[bhlloy]

Wait, are you trying to suggest that replay is well done in the NFL or that those reviews don't regularly go well over the time the referee has allocated for the review? Because I don't know if I can get on board with that.

I don't disagree with your suggestion at all, but the problem is the first time a ref hits that time limit and the wrong (or no) decision is made, everyone is going to lose their tiny minds. It's another example of now the pandoras box is open, how do you close it.

I think Rugby is probably the sport that has implemented review the best, where they review scoring plays and incidents of serious foul play, show the incident on the video board and have the referee miked up and communicating with his compatriot in the booth and both come to an agreement on what they've seen - but that's a sport that is very different from soccer in that the referee can stop the clock at any time (and somewhat regularly does to remove body parts or brains from the playing field) and most importantly, there is a culture of respect towards referees and players not trying to game the system. Anyone running up to a referee to demand a VAR review in rugby is going to have his captain called over and politely asked to stop it the first time and then sin-binned the second time.

[miami_fan]

Does the on field official have to go to VAR when they buzz him or can he ignore them on the belief that he saw the play clearly and he is sure about his decision? If the answer is no, that is really the only complaint that I have with VAR at this point. The on field official is already supposed to be making the final call, not the VAR team in the World Cup. I am not sure if that is the case during the club season. If the match official is confident in his/her decision, then they should be able to allow the game continue without a review. Now, I also expect there to be consequences if it turns out that the official was completely wrong, but I expect bravery from the players and the coaches, why not the same for the officials?

All of the other complaints I have seen have nothing to do with VAR and everything to do with the match officials themselves and the governing body over the refs. The officials have already have the tools to deal with the other stuff that have nothing to do with VAR. I am not sure why VAR is to blame for refs not booking guys for making the VAR symbol or calling for cards. I am not sure why cards aren't brandished for any player other than the captain have any discussion with the officials. I am not sure why FIFA and other governing bodies would not back up the refs if they did so.

For all the

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Does the on field official have to go to VAR when they buzz him or can he ignore them on the belief that he saw the play clearly and he is sure about his decision?

I'm pretty sure the ref can ignore VAR, which sometimes gets ridiculous when you have an obvious foul (like the non-call penalty by Germany against Sweden)

[bhlloy]

What pressure? Those two touches and then that finish were absolutely top class. Not a bad pass either.

[kingfc22]

Looks like a flop, but can certainly understand why the ref made the penalty call live.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

Looks like a flop, but can certainly understand why the ref made the penalty call live.

Agreed. Can’t understand how it wasn’t overturned

[kingfc22]

In the other match, Iceland is going to agonize over all the missed chances they've had.

[nilodor]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

Next time you "injure your ankle" just remember to pour some water on it.

Works like a charm.

Ping: Pilotman... too soon?