Front Office Football Central  

Go Back   Front Office Football Central > Main Forums > FOF9, FOF8, and TCY Discussion
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read Statistics

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-30-2019, 11:53 AM   #101
QuikSand
lolzcat
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel View Post
This is interesting Quik because this isn't what I thought static bars means.

For me I thought it meant the bars where the correlation between the draft prospect's bar and the actual player's bar is particularly high. I think I mean the future bar but I suppose I mean the current bar as well as I think I'm right in saying that players with high statics tend to have high current, relative to the % dev.

Am I missing something, do you think?

I honestly haven't been able to absorb your middle statement, but it's possible that the strongest correlations you're describing line up (not coincidentally) with the bars that i'm describing (the always-fully-developed ratings).

Basically, these are the specific skill ratings you can more or less take to the bank, give or take some scout error and the very occasional boom/bust. When you see a RB with Breakaway Speed that looks like it's between 80 and 100, it basically will be 80/80 (or maybe better) there, right away. Same guy with an apparent 80-100 in, say, Blitz Pickup, could be 12/80 or 40/80 or many other variations.
QuikSand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2019, 12:19 PM   #102
Sharkn20
High School Varsity
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuikSand View Post
I honestly haven't been able to absorb your middle statement, but it's possible that the strongest correlations you're describing line up (not coincidentally) with the bars that i'm describing (the always-fully-developed ratings).

Basically, these are the specific skill ratings you can more or less take to the bank, give or take some scout error and the very occasional boom/bust. When you see a RB with Breakaway Speed that looks like it's between 80 and 100, it basically will be 80/80 (or maybe better) there, right away. Same guy with an apparent 80-100 in, say, Blitz Pickup, could be 12/80 or 40/80 or many other variations.

By this statement, masked bars still apply??
Sharkn20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2019, 03:25 PM   #103
TeamBills59
n00b
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuikSand View Post
Do some digging on the term here for more background, but "static bars" is a global reference to certain skills that, in FOF, are basically always fully developed. Easiest example to see is with defensive coverage skills... man-to-man and zone coverage frequently show up as something like 21/54, right? But check out bump-and-run coverage... with very few slight exceptions, this bar will be fully complete in every player, even a freshly minted rookie, like 41/41. Every position has at least one, sometimes several, of these ratings that are just different than the rest. This community has taken to calling them "static bars" to reflect that they don't really evolve over time... that guy with 21/54 zone coverage is probably going to develop over his first few seasons from 21/54 to 24/50 to 33/44 to 39/39, as a fairly common example. The guy who started out 41/41 might hover slightly around that level, but probably won't move much there... 41/41 to 42/42 to 42/42 to 40/40, frex.

So, take a look in game, and you can quickly see which ratings are like this. Running backs have three IIRC, and so forth. There's a good deal of evidence suggesting that these ratings are themselves useful indicators of what draftees are more "real" than others. Two guys with fairly comparable bars and fairly comparable combines... but one DB happens to have much higher projections in bump coverage and punishing hitter... then makes him a better bet to develop than the other guy, all else equal.

That is really interesting thanks.
TeamBills59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2019, 07:41 AM   #104
QuikSand
lolzcat
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkn20 View Post
By this statement, masked bars still apply??

I'm wandering beyond my own expertise here, but my sense is that overall player masking still exists in the game - meaning some players are just one more full clicks better (or worse) than they appear in their pre-draft scouting. I think most people believe that strong static bars is an indicator of a given player being "masked" to appear worse than he will eventually reveal himself to be, but it's far from a sure thing.
QuikSand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2019, 01:24 PM   #105
Squirrel
Mascot
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuikSand View Post
I honestly haven't been able to absorb your middle statement, but it's possible that the strongest correlations you're describing line up (not coincidentally) with the bars that i'm describing (the always-fully-developed ratings).

Basically, these are the specific skill ratings you can more or less take to the bank, give or take some scout error and the very occasional boom/bust. When you see a RB with Breakaway Speed that looks like it's between 80 and 100, it basically will be 80/80 (or maybe better) there, right away. Same guy with an apparent 80-100 in, say, Blitz Pickup, could be 12/80 or 40/80 or many other variations.

Ah ok. Yep we’re saying the same thing.
Squirrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2020, 06:05 AM   #106
Galvarino
n00b
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Switzerland
Hi,

I have just found this table relating to the combines and since i am new to the game wondered if it still applies in FOF8 and if so just how much emphasis i should place on the combine results opposed to the bars?

I have just started my 1st career in SP other than a fast sim to get to grips with the basics of the game, the combine correlation is set to default (50) so i have been trying to match good bars from scouting (my scouts are pretty poor so the bars are not likely to be very accurate) with combines below these thresholds, along with high static bars listed in another thread i found.

So far though it seems to be any half decent players i find is more down to pure luck than anything else, but i hope that's due to my lack of experience and a small sample size which will improve over time.

Also could i ask if the combines have any relevance after the draft/1st season as i didn't note any down but i think they changed for all players before the start of the new season in the quick sim i did?
Galvarino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2020, 11:16 AM   #107
MIJB#19
Coordinator
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Maassluis, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galvarino View Post
Hi,

I have just found this table relating to the combines and since i am new to the game wondered if it still applies in FOF8 and if so just how much emphasis i should place on the combine results opposed to the bars?

I have just started my 1st career in SP other than a fast sim to get to grips with the basics of the game, the combine correlation is set to default (50) so i have been trying to match good bars from scouting (my scouts are pretty poor so the bars are not likely to be very accurate) with combines below these thresholds, along with high static bars listed in another thread i found.

So far though it seems to be any half decent players i find is more down to pure luck than anything else, but i hope that's due to my lack of experience and a small sample size which will improve over time.

Also could i ask if the combines have any relevance after the draft/1st season as i didn't note any down but i think they changed for all players before the start of the new season in the quick sim i did?
There is no reason to think the relationship isn't still there between ratings and combine scores, but as you mentioned already, the combine correlation setting determines how much more off the combine scores will be from being a clear tell or a randomly generated good score. The manual suggests that a setting of 50 will be similar to what it used to be in previous FOF version(s).

(as far as I know) all non-rookie combine scores are 'measured' at the start of the new season, which means for all the veteran players, these will be based on their start of off-season ratings (which is pretty much the same thing as the end of the previous season). After training camp and pre-season week 2, the randomness factors will possibly alter the ratings and as a result the combine scores (which won't be remeasured) will be slightly more off than they already were due to the randomness factor and the combine correlation setting.
__________________
* 2005 Golden Scribe winner for best FOF Dynasty about IHOF's Maassluis Merchantmen
* Former GM of GEFL's Houston Oilers and WOOF's Curacao Cocktail
MIJB#19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2020, 01:04 PM   #108
Galvarino
n00b
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Switzerland
Ok thank you, that's as i thought the veteran players combines were a product of the bar ratings at the beginning of each season.

Would that also mean they may give you an indication of the future ratings changes of a vet player over the course of the season, or is it all down to randomness and the combine correlation and i don't need to pay so much attention to them only, those of rookies for drafting and signing undrafted F/A's?
Galvarino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2020, 03:06 PM   #109
finkellll
n00b
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
The combine score for vets are reflected in their bars from what I can tell. I did some testing to see if there was anything "hidden" in the combine scores and all I found was good vet combines = good bars. I would only consider looking at them for free agents over 30, but for single player I just assume they will dip a bit in training camp instead of doing the math to see if they are safe to sign or not.

I think it was said earlier in this thread that the thresholds are a soft limit in 8 at best, and you can generally ignore the limits and still be fine. You will still get better rookies by staying with good combines in general, but it isn't a hard and fast rule.

Last edited by finkellll : 06-24-2020 at 03:07 PM.
finkellll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2020, 08:23 PM   #110
QuikSand
lolzcat
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galvarino View Post
Ok thank you, that's as i thought the veteran players combines were a product of the bar ratings at the beginning of each season.

Would that also mean they may give you an indication of the future ratings changes of a vet player over the course of the season, or is it all down to randomness and the combine correlation and i don't need to pay so much attention to them only, those of rookies for drafting and signing undrafted F/A's?

Short version, imo: pay attention during the draft, learn what good/bad combines mean, and use that as an important but not exclusive part of evaluating rookie players... then after that you should mostly ignore them

Slightly longer: after the rookie season they'll bump around, but the only thing that really seems to matter is sometimes a player gets a mid-career volatility change (good or bad) and that typically gets reaffirmed in the following year's combine results... a 5th year guy suddenly jumps from 40/40 to 55/55 and the next year he's faster, stronger, everything - by then you basically realized he was better, but the combines are a verification after the fact (would be kinda cool if it worked the other direction imo)

Much longer: understanding combines is complicated, either annoyingly so, or enjoyably so, and that might determine in part whether this is the game for you (not meant as a slight)... but in general, assume there's some set of numbers beneath everything that affect a "dice roll" in the game that determines the things we see... this particular wide receiver is coded to have, let's say, really really good speed... so the game rolls dice to generate a true rating for him in the most directly associated skill, "big play receiving," and rolls dice again in generating his 40 yard dash time of, say, 4.40. Now, after lots of research and testing, some FOFers have uncovered that not only superior speed receivers can potentially generate a 4.40... occasionally some guys who really don't have that great a core rating might do that, too. Some of those guys might only have a BPR rating of, say, 55. But what we are hoping for is that his underlying skill/speed was so high that it generated a 90 or 95 or 100. The game isn't transparent here... some guys are going to miss. But that is what makes it fun, to many of us. Most players have terrible drafts off the bat, and have to improve a lot. There's a lot here to help you, but there aren't any simple "cheat codes." Use combines, they help, they are part of the puzzle, but like I'm trying to illustrate above - they are imperfect, but design.

My tip/though - if you really want to improve at the game in the short run, set your single player settings to a very high combine correlation. That way, the connections between the combines (like 40 dash time) and the associated ratings (like big play receiving) will feel more apparent and predictable. Over time, you will likely want to lessen that value, as you'll probably prefer more of a challenge.
QuikSand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2020, 11:43 AM   #111
MIJB#19
Coordinator
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Maassluis, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galvarino View Post
Ok thank you, that's as i thought the veteran players combines were a product of the bar ratings at the beginning of each season.

Would that also mean they may give you an indication of the future ratings changes of a vet player over the course of the season, or is it all down to randomness and the combine correlation and i don't need to pay so much attention to them only, those of rookies for drafting and signing undrafted F/A's?
I'm trying to go with a shorter answer than QS:
I do believe that the combine scores of 'veterans' are calculated in the same was as rookies. So if a combine score is based on potential for rookies (and we perceive it does, but the game manual isn't specific about it), then it works the same way for veterans.

That in mind, after pre-season week2 is ran, the combines scores of all the players in the league are less valuable because ratings will have been randomly changed and the combine scores were based on the bars before the randomness.
__________________
* 2005 Golden Scribe winner for best FOF Dynasty about IHOF's Maassluis Merchantmen
* Former GM of GEFL's Houston Oilers and WOOF's Curacao Cocktail

Last edited by MIJB#19 : 06-26-2020 at 11:44 AM.
MIJB#19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2020, 11:48 AM   #112
MIJB#19
Coordinator
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Maassluis, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
To add to all the above, the combine scores are based on a players position (group) at the start of the season. After position changing a player, his combine scores in the next season can have drastic changes if you look at them from the player perspective. But that's not how you should read it, the combine scores are relative to the ratings and the position group. For example, if you position change a DE to DT (and we assume there is no loss of ratings), you will see that the player will become something like 0.25-0.3 seconds slower in his 40-yard dash.
__________________
* 2005 Golden Scribe winner for best FOF Dynasty about IHOF's Maassluis Merchantmen
* Former GM of GEFL's Houston Oilers and WOOF's Curacao Cocktail
MIJB#19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2020, 03:34 PM   #113
Galvarino
n00b
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Switzerland
Thanks for all of the great advice.

I have to say that so far i am loving the game, the sheer depth and complexity of it provide the sort of challenge i really enjoy in my games, IMO its easily the best and most realistic football GM game i have played, which leaves me hoping Jim will continue with and release FOF9 when he is ready to, and that i found the game a number of years earlier!

The more i read and research in the many forums available the deeper i am becoming immersed, and can't wait to reach a point where i feel competent and comfortable enough to start tinkering with game plans and playbooks and then possibly creating my own tools for drafting etc.
Galvarino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2020, 04:32 AM   #114
MIJB#19
Coordinator
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Maassluis, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
Looking through the FOF help files, specifically the "Annual Scouting Combine" article, I noticed some discrepancies of combine scores that have always been known to be linked to specific bars, that are in FOF8 suggested to not (or no longer?) be related.

Specifically, agility for quarterbacks used to be a tell on his sense rush ability, but the help file says sense rush is (now) linked with solecismic score (together with avoid interceptions and read defense), while agility is linked to short and screen passing.

Not having FOF7 om this laptop makes it hard to research where and when this changes, but it does make me wonder what else has changed?
__________________
* 2005 Golden Scribe winner for best FOF Dynasty about IHOF's Maassluis Merchantmen
* Former GM of GEFL's Houston Oilers and WOOF's Curacao Cocktail
MIJB#19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:43 AM.



Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.