uncertainty in game design ("hidden mechanics or roles")

hoopsguy · 06-25-2009, 03:17 PM

Over the past few games there had been some discussion around the role that hidden mechanics have played in terms of undercutting the decision-making process for players. However, the flip-side (complete disclosure) of roles + mechanics can also pose some challenges by boxing in the wolves and creating +EV "reveal all" scenarios.

I'm working on my next game and want to get some feedback from people on what they like to see in this area. I could get the conversation going with what I like, but my game already reflects that right now so I'm not sure how useful that is.

Also, I'm very interested if this has been a concern with any of my previous games ... that too little info was known to make good decisions. If so, can you provide examples? Hopefully this will create an interesting discussion and lead to a better game coming up after the 4th of July weekend.

DaddyTorgo · 06-25-2009, 03:24 PM

What about just saying "here's the roles that are for sure in the game. here are the roles that are potentially in the game that you need to keep in mind" so that you balance the two. and those "potentially" should include both good and bad, in order to give the wolves someplace to hide.

hoopsguy · 06-25-2009, 03:28 PM

I've definitely seen that done:
20 players signed up
20 listed good roles
6 listed bad roles

I've also seen the bad guys be given roles that they know are not in the game to help with a fake reveal.

But that is also different than not knowing what the roles can do. For example, in my Marvel games the participants knew who the heroes/villains were but not what they could do or what side they were on. Is that too little information? Would it have been better if I had listed complete descriptions publicly on what each character did?

Danny · 06-25-2009, 03:38 PM

I wouldn't have changed your marvel game at all. I think a big thing is moderation. The mystery in your marvel game was a lot of fun, but a game like that needs to be only once in a while. That kind of mystery I think definitely helps the wolves in general, but at least in your game we all had abilities to potentially counter act that.

The problem with my game and now with Jackal's game is an overall reveal. I kind of had Jag and Abe pegged down for their votes, so catching them that way would have been fun. While my game people were more subtle it ended up in a similar fashion. I think games where all players have roles need to give the wolves roles they know are not in the game or general roles/powers just like all the other players like in your marvel game.

In general, the villagers needs to feel like they have some knowledge and understanding of the overall workings of things, but they don't have to necessarily know everything. I do think it's important that they always know whether or not there are hidden mechanics though.

Danny · 06-25-2009, 03:40 PM

And while I had fun, the example I'll give is Abe's miners game. As a villager I had no clue of the workings of things and had no way of finding them out. That part of the game setup did not work well.

Autumn · 06-25-2009, 03:44 PM

I think in the Marvel game it was fine not knowing everyone's powers. Since their powers didn't tell us whether they were good or bad, it took that aspect away. The thing that I think threw us in that game was not really knowing how many factions there were, that confused people.

I would say if there are undisclosed roles in the game, that's fine, just make sure not everyone has them. That I think is what leads to trouble. There has to be the possibility for plain villagers for the wolves to hide among, or the possibility to fake an undisclosed role without numbers calling you out.

Abe Sargent · 06-25-2009, 04:23 PM

In my next game, I will have all roles revealed, plus about 10-12 extra roles, so no one knows which are in teh game and not, but the wolves will know.

The Jackal · 06-25-2009, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

In my next game, I will have all roles revealed, plus about 10-12 extra roles, so no one knows which are in teh game and not, but the wolves will know.

I think I like this, and I would have like to applied it to this version of the Labyrinth but I was not fully prepared to run it, I ended up having to throw a lot of it together as you saw.

hoopsguy · 06-25-2009, 05:08 PM

OK, I've had time to get at least some initial feedback. So here is the plan for the upcoming game, as it relates to this issue.

1.) The theme is "24", which hopefully is pretty well known to many of the WW participants.
2.) I'll be listing 30 total characters as part of the rules. These will be good and bad guys from the show. There may or may not be correlation between character loyalties on the show and their allegiance in the game.
3.) None of the powers will be published (this is similar to the Marvel game).
4.) I'll be using random.org to determine what characters are in the game, with the provision that Jack Bauer is 100% going to be in the game. I may decide that a couple of other characters must be in the game as well.
5.) Every one of the characters will be a unique role.
6.) The wolves will have at least partial knowledge of characters that are not in the game (ex - 20 sign up, wolves would know something like 2-4 characters that are not in the game.

Now, with powers not being published that obviously is going to impact the player strategy - what kind of crazy/unique roles am I going to come up with this time? But I tend to like doing this because I think it encourages more in-thread creativity and higher risk/reward scenarios for both wolves and villagers. The flip side to this is that some players may not find this as attractive; they may want to have a more straight-forward game where mechanics are clearly understand from start to finish.

Anyway, I'm very open to any feedback people have on this and I've still got time to tinker with this design if there seems to be a strong sentiment that runs contrary to the vision that I've outlined. But, on a broader scale I'm interested in understanding what kind of games people like to play so I can work on integrating that with potential games that are further out as well.

The Jackal · 06-25-2009, 05:11 PM

I call Kim Bauer.

hoopsguy · 06-25-2009, 05:14 PM

Heh - players don't get to pick their characters this time around

The Jackal · 06-25-2009, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Heh - players don't get to pick their characters this time around

Who said anything about picking a character?

Danny · 06-25-2009, 05:22 PM

Sounds good except I have never watched 24.

Autumn · 06-25-2009, 07:25 PM

I think it sounds good. I think you're right that some players won't like that sort of set up, but I think plenty of others really enjoy it. I like knowing I'll have a unique character with unique abilities, and I don't mind the uncertainty of that.

EagleFan · 06-25-2009, 08:24 PM

As long as there are no posessions...

hoopsguy · 06-25-2009, 08:34 PM

EF, I advised The Jackal earlier this evening that there would be no possession this game so he should not get his hopes up about messing with you again.

In fairness, you did take Aardwolf that game. You sort of had something lame like that coming

Autumn · 06-25-2009, 08:36 PM

lol, true

Thomkal · 06-25-2009, 08:46 PM

I think there's a potential difference between your Marvel game and your proposed one. It was fine not revealing powers before the game started in Marvel because most of us pretty much knew all the characters and their powers and could speculate what ability was used when something happened in the game and who could possibly have that ability.

As for 24, if you get a bunch of people playing who don't know the show (like me), or haven't watched that much of it, it becomes harder to figure out these things for the villagers. And a canny wolf who knows the show well will likely use that to their advantage. It may help if you give extensive descriptions of the characters who might be in the game to give something for the village to base their thoughts on.

I think the theme is good, but you'll need a lot of people to play who are familiar with the show to make it great. Just make it clear its going to be a game without published powers, so people can avoid it like the plague if they don't like that kind of game.

hoopsguy · 06-25-2009, 09:42 PM

Will do - in theory this should be a lot simpler than the Marvel game as it does not bring stuff like "Health" and "Energy" into play. However, you can pretty much expect that I'm going to have a couple of concepts up my sleeve to try out. And my co-moderator (not Tyrith this time around) is certainly no slouch himself when it comes to game design. I think it is going to be a lot of fun.

I'll do what I can to provide links to do research on the show (Wikipedia). I'm a little reluctant to do full write-ups in my own words for each because I do not want to potential tip my hand on what kind of stuff I have done with the characters.

Now, all of that said ... I did not intend this thread to be 100% about my next game. Don't get me wrong, I'm always happy to talk about the kooky ideas in my head. But the real intent (that I probably departed from) was to take a little broader view on what people find the right balance between "highly structured - everything published" versus "some published - some not published". Or something in between.

What tends to be more fun and why? If possible, give examples. I just used my Marvel games as an example of a game that tilted very far to the "some published - some not published" side of the scale.

Barkeep49 · 06-25-2009, 10:49 PM

I've run games where all of the powers are spelled out (most of my games) and none of them are spelled out (Cathedral). I think both can work. I think not having powers spelled out is much trickier from a game perspective as we saw recently in Danny's game and to a lesser extent Cathedral 2 (which I think wasn't as balanced as Cathedral 1). In other words I think both concepts are playable but you add a level of moderator difficulty, in the form of balance, when you don't publish what the roles are. I think Thomkal has a good point about the need for some level of predicting what might be in the game or not even if not all the powers are enumerated.

EagleFan · 06-26-2009, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

In fairness, you did take Aardwolf that game. You sort of had something lame like that coming

Hey! Not into comics and by the time I got in it looked like most of the ones I would know were gone so I did some research to find a little known character. I would say by definition that is not lame.

claphamsa · 06-26-2009, 09:41 AM

I dont like all the complicated things happening, it can be entertaining, but it takes away from the game.

USFLTecmo · 06-28-2009, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

What about just saying "here's the roles that are for sure in the game. here are the roles that are potentially in the game that you need to keep in mind" so that you balance the two. and those "potentially" should include both good and bad, in order to give the wolves someplace to hide.

I like this. I don't mind not knowing which roles are in the game, however, I hate, hate, hate seeing something that there's no mechanic for in the written rules happening. It messes with people making any sort of clear read on people when they're able to do something you can't pinpoint into one role (or even two or three different roles. At least you'd be able to narrow it down).

The Jackal · 06-28-2009, 07:13 PM

I hope the Death Room wasn't too unexpected of a hidden mechanic, I mean it is a Minotaur-Infested, Jester-Created Labyrinth.

Sorry Danny and anyone else who finds it.

06-25-2009, 03:24 PM	#2
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	What about just saying "here's the roles that are for sure in the game. here are the roles that are potentially in the game that you need to keep in mind" so that you balance the two. and those "potentially" should include both good and bad, in order to give the wolves someplace to hide. __________________ If I've ever helped you and you'd like to buy me a coffee, or just to say thanks, I have my Bitcoin and Ethereum addressed listed below :) BTC: bc1qykhsfyn9vw4ntqfgr0svj4n9tjdgufryh2pxn5 ETH: 0x2AcdC5cd88EA537063553F5b240073bE067BaCa9

06-25-2009, 04:23 PM	#7
Abe Sargent Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Catonsville, MD	In my next game, I will have all roles revealed, plus about 10-12 extra roles, so no one knows which are in teh game and not, but the wolves will know. __________________ Check out my two current weekly Magic columns! https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/?action=search&page=1&author[]=Abe%20Sargent

06-25-2009, 09:42 PM	#19
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	Will do - in theory this should be a lot simpler than the Marvel game as it does not bring stuff like "Health" and "Energy" into play. However, you can pretty much expect that I'm going to have a couple of concepts up my sleeve to try out. And my co-moderator (not Tyrith this time around) is certainly no slouch himself when it comes to game design. I think it is going to be a lot of fun. I'll do what I can to provide links to do research on the show (Wikipedia). I'm a little reluctant to do full write-ups in my own words for each because I do not want to potential tip my hand on what kind of stuff I have done with the characters. Now, all of that said ... I did not intend this thread to be 100% about my next game. Don't get me wrong, I'm always happy to talk about the kooky ideas in my head. But the real intent (that I probably departed from) was to take a little broader view on what people find the right balance between "highly structured - everything published" versus "some published - some not published". Or something in between. What tends to be more fun and why? If possible, give examples. I just used my Marvel games as an example of a game that tilted very far to the "some published - some not published" side of the scale. Last edited by hoopsguy : 06-25-2009 at 11:10 PM.

06-25-2009, 10:49 PM	#20
Barkeep49 Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Not too far away	I've run games where all of the powers are spelled out (most of my games) and none of them are spelled out (Cathedral). I think both can work. I think not having powers spelled out is much trickier from a game perspective as we saw recently in Danny's game and to a lesser extent Cathedral 2 (which I think wasn't as balanced as Cathedral 1). In other words I think both concepts are playable but you add a level of moderator difficulty, in the form of balance, when you don't publish what the roles are. I think Thomkal has a good point about the need for some level of predicting what might be in the game or not even if not all the powers are enumerated. Last edited by Barkeep49 : 06-25-2009 at 10:51 PM.

06-26-2009, 09:41 AM	#22
claphamsa Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: non white trash MD	I dont like all the complicated things happening, it can be entertaining, but it takes away from the game. __________________ Dominating Warewolf for 0 games! GIT R DUN!!!

06-25-2009, 03:28 PM	#3
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	I've definitely seen that done: 20 players signed up 20 listed good roles 6 listed bad roles I've also seen the bad guys be given roles that they know are not in the game to help with a fake reveal. But that is also different than not knowing what the roles can do. For example, in my Marvel games the participants knew who the heroes/villains were but not what they could do or what side they were on. Is that too little information? Would it have been better if I had listed complete descriptions publicly on what each character did?

06-25-2009, 03:38 PM	#4
Danny Head Coach Join Date: Jul 2001	I wouldn't have changed your marvel game at all. I think a big thing is moderation. The mystery in your marvel game was a lot of fun, but a game like that needs to be only once in a while. That kind of mystery I think definitely helps the wolves in general, but at least in your game we all had abilities to potentially counter act that. The problem with my game and now with Jackal's game is an overall reveal. I kind of had Jag and Abe pegged down for their votes, so catching them that way would have been fun. While my game people were more subtle it ended up in a similar fashion. I think games where all players have roles need to give the wolves roles they know are not in the game or general roles/powers just like all the other players like in your marvel game. In general, the villagers needs to feel like they have some knowledge and understanding of the overall workings of things, but they don't have to necessarily know everything. I do think it's important that they always know whether or not there are hidden mechanics though.

06-25-2009, 03:40 PM	#5
Danny Head Coach Join Date: Jul 2001	And while I had fun, the example I'll give is Abe's miners game. As a villager I had no clue of the workings of things and had no way of finding them out. That part of the game setup did not work well.

06-25-2009, 03:44 PM	#6
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	I think in the Marvel game it was fine not knowing everyone's powers. Since their powers didn't tell us whether they were good or bad, it took that aspect away. The thing that I think threw us in that game was not really knowing how many factions there were, that confused people. I would say if there are undisclosed roles in the game, that's fine, just make sure not everyone has them. That I think is what leads to trouble. There has to be the possibility for plain villagers for the wolves to hide among, or the possibility to fake an undisclosed role without numbers calling you out.

06-25-2009, 05:08 PM	#9
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	OK, I've had time to get at least some initial feedback. So here is the plan for the upcoming game, as it relates to this issue. 1.) The theme is "24", which hopefully is pretty well known to many of the WW participants. 2.) I'll be listing 30 total characters as part of the rules. These will be good and bad guys from the show. There may or may not be correlation between character loyalties on the show and their allegiance in the game. 3.) None of the powers will be published (this is similar to the Marvel game). 4.) I'll be using random.org to determine what characters are in the game, with the provision that Jack Bauer is 100% going to be in the game. I may decide that a couple of other characters must be in the game as well. 5.) Every one of the characters will be a unique role. 6.) The wolves will have at least partial knowledge of characters that are not in the game (ex - 20 sign up, wolves would know something like 2-4 characters that are not in the game. Now, with powers not being published that obviously is going to impact the player strategy - what kind of crazy/unique roles am I going to come up with this time? But I tend to like doing this because I think it encourages more in-thread creativity and higher risk/reward scenarios for both wolves and villagers. The flip side to this is that some players may not find this as attractive; they may want to have a more straight-forward game where mechanics are clearly understand from start to finish. Anyway, I'm very open to any feedback people have on this and I've still got time to tinker with this design if there seems to be a strong sentiment that runs contrary to the vision that I've outlined. But, on a broader scale I'm interested in understanding what kind of games people like to play so I can work on integrating that with potential games that are further out as well.

06-25-2009, 05:11 PM	#10
The Jackal Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: New Hampshire	I call Kim Bauer.

06-25-2009, 05:14 PM	#11
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	Heh - players don't get to pick their characters this time around

06-25-2009, 05:22 PM	#13
Danny Head Coach Join Date: Jul 2001	Sounds good except I have never watched 24.

06-25-2009, 07:25 PM	#14
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	I think it sounds good. I think you're right that some players won't like that sort of set up, but I think plenty of others really enjoy it. I like knowing I'll have a unique character with unique abilities, and I don't mind the uncertainty of that.

06-25-2009, 08:24 PM	#15
EagleFan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Mays Landing, NJ USA	As long as there are no posessions...

06-25-2009, 08:34 PM	#16
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	EF, I advised The Jackal earlier this evening that there would be no possession this game so he should not get his hopes up about messing with you again. In fairness, you did take Aardwolf that game. You sort of had something lame like that coming

06-25-2009, 08:36 PM	#17
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	lol, true

06-25-2009, 08:46 PM	#18
Thomkal Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Surfside Beach,SC USA	I think there's a potential difference between your Marvel game and your proposed one. It was fine not revealing powers before the game started in Marvel because most of us pretty much knew all the characters and their powers and could speculate what ability was used when something happened in the game and who could possibly have that ability. As for 24, if you get a bunch of people playing who don't know the show (like me), or haven't watched that much of it, it becomes harder to figure out these things for the villagers. And a canny wolf who knows the show well will likely use that to their advantage. It may help if you give extensive descriptions of the characters who might be in the game to give something for the village to base their thoughts on. I think the theme is good, but you'll need a lot of people to play who are familiar with the show to make it great. Just make it clear its going to be a game without published powers, so people can avoid it like the plague if they don't like that kind of game.

06-28-2009, 07:13 PM	#24
The Jackal Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: New Hampshire	I hope the Death Room wasn't too unexpected of a hidden mechanic, I mean it is a Minotaur-Infested, Jester-Created Labyrinth. Sorry Danny and anyone else who finds it.

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