Anyone watching C-SPAN?

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Ok has anyone been watching C-SPAN at all today? There has been alot of mud slinging going on all day regarding immediate pull out of I-RAQ. I guess there will be a vote tonite and, the closing arguements are happening right now. Intriguing stuff.
edit: What I found uncalled for was how the representative called rep. Murtha a coward and, not ''marine'' enough. I couldn't believe she would say that to a man who served his country for 30 years and, a genuine war hero.

[oliegirl]

I was watching everything as it went down earlier with the lady from Ohio (I think) and her "inappropriate" comment, I thought the whole thing was ridiculous and annoying, but I guess it's pretty typical of what goes on a lot of times, but it did get pretty ugly.

[Flasch186]

Tom Osborne just rocked the house!!

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Tom Osborne just rocked the house!!

He's aged terribly.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Pelosi just gave an uppercut with her comment. Good and, tactful move.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by CHEMICAL SOLDIER

Ok has anyone been watching C-SPAN at all today? There has been alot of mud slinging going on all day regarding immediate pull out of I-RAQ. I guess there will be a vote tonite and, the closing arguements are happening right now. Intriguing stuff.
edit: What I found uncalled for was how the representative called rep. Murtha a coward and, not ''marine'' enough. I couldn't believe she would say that to a man who served his country for 30 years and, a genuine war hero.

You would think a comment like this would have a huge negative impact. But I learned to be shocked by nothing when somehow a large number of voters were convinced that John Kerry's injuries from being shot while serving this country were a negative quality.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Logically and, rhetorically the democrats are winning the arguements lets see what they vote on.

[Flasch186]

keep in mind, While I oppose the removal of troops, the Resolution being voted on is NOT what the Democrat had proposed yesterday, where he said around 6 months (which I dont agree with either)

[Buccaneer]

A representation democracy at work, for the most part. I like it. I hope what comes out of it is a planned withdrawal for next year.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

I have yet to find a copy of the resolution online. Anyone with better google skills and, eyesight than I do please post it here. thanks.

[Flasch186]

did they just pass this!?

[Galaxy]

How do you "force" a withdrawal? Doesn't the President have power, without needing Congress approval, over military decisions?

[Flasch186]

i think theyre voting on whether or not to have a vote?

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by CHEMICAL SOLDIER

I have yet to find a copy of the resolution online. Anyone with better google skills and, eyesight than I do please post it here. thanks.

apparently cspan.org

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

i think theyre voting on whether or not to have a vote?

I think its tied right now and, I think there will be another hour of debates and, then THE vote. I can't believe a big chiunk isn't even voting. I hope when or if they have a ''real'' vote they vote since the affects of a decision will impact the nation either way.

[Galaxy]

Where did this Troops withdrawal come from? I've been out of the news loop a few days (and generally don't follow politics too closely unless it's big).

[CraigSca]

I just hope they do what's popular and not what's right.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

I just hope they do what's popular and not what's right.

If that's a joke, it's a funny one.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Here is what transpired this morning between dems and, reps:

At one point in the emotional debate, Rep. Jean Schmidt, R-Ohio, told of a phone call she received from a Marine colonel.

"He asked me to send Congress a message — stay the course. He also asked me to send Congressman Murtha a message — that cowards cut and run, Marines never do," Schmidt said. Murtha is a 37-year Marine veteran.

Democrats booed and shouted her down — causing the House to come to a standstill.

[Flasch186]

here we go!!

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by CHEMICAL SOLDIER

Here is what transpired this morning between dems and, reps:

At one point in the emotional debate, Rep. Jean Schmidt, R-Ohio, told of a phone call she received from a Marine colonel.

"He asked me to send Congress a message — stay the course. He also asked me to send Congressman Murtha a message — that cowards cut and run, Marines never do," Schmidt said. Murtha is a 37-year Marine veteran.

Democrats booed and shouted her down — causing the House to come to a standstill.

it goes a little further back than that, I think

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Rep. Curt Weldon! WOW! An awesome and, heart felt speech in front of congress.

[bronconick]

Murtha's pissed. It's nice to see people actually giving a crap about this and actually discussing it some, even if it's a crappy resolution going nowhere.

[Flasch186]

well its refreshing to see eventhough I disagree with him.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

How do you "force" a withdrawal? Doesn't the President have power, without needing Congress approval, over military decisions?

That's true as far as I can tell, but a resolution by Congress would create massive political problems for the Executive branch. Also, there is always the possibility of a Supreme Court showdown, which at the very least would be entertaining.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

That's true as far as I can tell, but a resolution by Congress would create massive political problems for the Executive branch. Also, there is always the possibility of a Supreme Court showdown, which at the very least would be entertaining.

I havent had this much fun (or watched c-span) since the 2001-02 Presidential Election controversies.

[Flasch186]

thats horseshit, its not Murtha's referendum!!! The house leader said that is up to debate. BS


he got called out and had to admit it!!! that was BS...pooor leadership there.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CHEMICAL SOLDIER

At one point in the emotional debate, Rep. Jean Schmidt, R-Ohio, told of a phone call she received from a Marine colonel.

"He asked me to send Congress a message — stay the course. He also asked me to send Congressman Murtha a message — that cowards cut and run, Marines never do," Schmidt said.

Good for her, and for the Colonel who called her.

Democrats booed and shouted her down

Gee, now there's a friggin shock.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Good for her, and for the Colonel who called her.



Gee, now there's a friggin shock.

Pretty classless statement for her to make, regardless of the stance. Please, let me know when she knows what war is like and experiences it (as Murtha has). This is a not a pro or anti-Iraqi statement, just a statement on how pathetic our country is run with the Democrats vs. Republicans.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Pretty classless statement for her to make, regardless of the stance.

What it was was honest. And to the point. And spot on accurate.

[Flasch186]

Democracy is built on the people's right to dissent, even in times of war. While I may not agree with Murtha, his dissent is no more cowardly than it is patriotic to swim against the current and minutia that would keep any man or woman of lesser chutzpa, quiet in disregard to their or their constituents feelings. While I believe his opinion is wrong, remember that if it wasn't for dissent, the Puritans would've never gotten on the Mayflower. It is protection of opinions, freedom of speech, and the right of our people to dissent without fear of repurcussion that we are fighting for anyways. Good for him, for speaking his mind, should HIS bill ever come up for a vote, not this Republican laff-a-bill, I hope it is shot down promptly after debate.

[Dutch]

I haven't watched C-SPAN, but these quotes may be relevant.

http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/111505.wmv

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I haven't watched C-SPAN, but these quotes may be relevant.

http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/111505.wmv

no doubt. We all believed it, so we hit them up with inspections. Low and behold they worked. He didnt and couldnt rebuild those WMD's. Whew, glad they worked so next time we can use them again before going.....oh wait.

BTW, I knew you couldnt see the forest. No wonder youre so consistent, I take pride in the fact that I am not. try it some time.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

his dissent is no more cowardly than it is patriotic to swim against the current and minutia that would keep any man or woman of lesser chutzpa, quiet in disregard to their or their constituents feelings.

No, didn't you hear? It is now cowardly and unpatriotic to disagree with the President in any way... of course this doesn't apply if there is a Democrat sitting as President.

And heaven forbid you actually fought for the US and then disagree with the President... then you are even bigger of a traitor (unless the President was Clinton or some other Dem, of course).

[Anthony]

so if Murtha is now considered a coward - but is an actual war vet...what does that make our President then, who got as close to combat as i want to get close to contracting an STD.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

I just hope they do what's popular and not what's right.

You mean like you're supposed to do in a democracy?

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

You mean like you're supposed to do in a democracy?

The United States is a Republic and a Representative Democracy. It is the Representative bit that ultimately means that what those representatives believe is right wins out over what the masses believe is popular.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by CHEMICAL SOLDIER

Pelosi just gave an uppercut with her comment. Good and, tactful move.

I didn't see it, but I doubt it. Pelosi is rarely tactful.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by panerd

You would think a comment like this would have a huge negative impact. But I learned to be shocked by nothing when somehow a large number of voters were convinced that John Kerry's injuries from being shot while serving this country were a negative quality.

Hey, for years I felt like he was a genuine war hero. Three Purple Hearts, you're damn right he's a hero. He's even carrying around a piece of shrapnel, from one of those wounds. I recall when he was shouted down as a coward for an anti-war position when he showed up at a rally somewhere. I thought it was pretty unconscionable at the time(I still do), regardless of what he did when he returned from Vietnam or whatever his current position was.

Then I actually read about his injuries. Not what the Swift Boat Captains for truth said....They really didn't have much ground to stand on. It was what he released in response to those guys. The actual depictions of the combat actions where he was injured. Twice he received abrasions that were treated without stitches. Those abrasions were, as I recall, directly from shrapnel. The third Purple Heart came from a contusion received when the concussion of another boat hitting a mine knocked him down on his boat. The shrapnel he carries around isn't actually related to a purple heart. He got it when he didn't get in good enough cover after dropping one of his own grenades in a grain/rice store. I can't recall if that wound even required stitches, but the decision to leave the shrapnel in his ass was based on the fact that the surgery to remove it would have been worse than the wound itself. So yeah three purple hearts, and he was essentially never admitted to a hospital. He was an out-patient.

I didn't even realize you could get a Purple Heart for those types of injuries, but he filed the paper work for each one. I don't fault him for that. I would have done the same thing if I were in his shoes. "Heck three of these things, and I've done my time. I'm outta here." The deal is, it really isn't a very heroic attitude. I understand it, and probably would have done it myself, but the fact that he got out as soon as he possibly could drops him a few notches on the "hero" scale.

In other words, it wasn't that he served his country and was injured that some counted against him. It was that he got out of country as expediently as possible after collecting what essentially amounted to two scrapes and a bruise.

[oykib]

Kerry's Purple Hearts were just so much bullshit, really. But at least he wasn't a draft dodger. Now, just like with Kerry and the Purple Hearts, I don't fault Bush and most of his cronies from for dodging. I do fault his and their lack of humility regarding it.

I have a problem with him sending attack ads out on the quality of the service of his opponent-- who did actually serve. I think that shows a lack of character that I think is important. What choices people made in life and death situations when they were twenty aren't as important to me as how they represent them now.

I was disgusted with Kerry for the gutlessness he showed when confronted with such a shaky attack. I don't need a gutless President.

I was just as disgusted with Bush for making those attacks.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

The United States is a Republic and a Representative Democracy. It is the Representative bit that ultimately means that what those representatives believe is right wins out over what the masses believe is popular.

Ding, ding, ding! If the politicians followed what the fickle public wanted 100% of the time we'd be in a heck of a lot of trouble.

Americans: "Save social security! Hands off social security! "More SUVs, I wanna feel safe!" "Where the hell are my fuel efficient cars?!" etc., etc.

You know, we as a whole really dislike our politicians, but I sometimes think that they have to dislike the public almost as much. It seems every 10 minutes we change our minds and play Monday morning quarterback with every decision they make. I realize it's human nature to do so, but the pols must be thinking, "jebus, Mr. and Mrs. Smith, make up your damn minds!"

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

It seems every 10 minutes we change our minds and play Monday morning quarterback with every decision they make.

"People generally get the kind of government they deserve."
Alexis de Tocqueville

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

no doubt. We all believed it, so we hit them up with inspections. Low and behold they worked. He didnt and couldnt rebuild those WMD's. Whew, glad they worked so next time we can use them again before going.....oh wait.

Those inspections were run for 4 or 5 years under President Clinton and came to the same conclusion - that UN inspectors can only inspect what they have in front of them and are not WMD hunters. Saddam Hussein played the the same "cat and mouse" games then that he did in 2002. If it was the same intelligence that flawed Clinton, where was the Intel Reform in 1995 when Clinton launched Desert Fox instead of applying for the removal of Sanctions?

The bottom line remains that we are wiser now because of the invasion, not in spite of it. Does that mean there wasn't a problem or that problems can be solved by invading and "finding out"? Hell no. We need to reform our intelligence services so they are able to get the facts and the truth. But talking Intel Reform is a good game. But how do we make our Intelligence Community better? How do we make it stronger? How do we make it effective?

But in any event, while Saddam Hussein and his 5-7 year plan to acquire a nuclear device after the fall of UN Sanctions is only a "what if" scenario. Lot's of people came to that conclusion that is was more possible than a lot of other "what if" scenario's. Lot's of senators on the Intelligence Committee believed that Saddam was 5-7 years away, lots of Presidents, foreign nations, Republicans, Democrats, me and you believed it, hell prior to Bush winning election in 2000, I'll even bet Michael Moore believed it. But guess what, if by hook or by crook, the answer now is unequivocally--no. Saddam Hussein will not be building that nuclear bomb. That's because President Bush made a big decision as our President. He didn't do it for free gasoline, the Michael Moore and the Democrats need to stop bullshitting us with that nonsense.

[SFL Cat]

Good stuff, Dutch.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Those inspections were run for 4 or 5 years under President Clinton and came to the same conclusion - that UN inspectors can only inspect what they have in front of them and are not WMD hunters. Saddam Hussein played the the same "cat and mouse" games then that he did in 2002. If it was the same intelligence that flawed Clinton, where was the Intel Reform in 1995 when Clinton launched Desert Fox instead of applying for the removal of Sanctions?

The bottom line remains that we are wiser now because of the invasion, not in spite of it. Does that mean there wasn't a problem or that problems can be solved by invading and "finding out"? Hell no. We need to reform our intelligence services so they are able to get the facts and the truth. But talking Intel Reform is a good game. But how do we make our Intelligence Community better? How do we make it stronger? How do we make it effective?

But in any event, while Saddam Hussein and his 5-7 year plan to acquire a nuclear device after the fall of UN Sanctions is only a "what if" scenario. Lot's of people came to that conclusion that is was more possible than a lot of other "what if" scenario's. Lot's of senators on the Intelligence Committee believed that Saddam was 5-7 years away, lots of Presidents, foreign nations, Republicans, Democrats, me and you believed it, hell prior to Bush winning election in 2000, I'll even bet Michael Moore believed it. But guess what, if by hook or by crook, the answer now is unequivocally--no. Saddam Hussein will not be building that nuclear bomb. That's because President Bush made a big decision as our President. He didn't do it for free gasoline, the Michael Moore and the Democrats need to stop bullshitting us with that nonsense.

I was for the war, still am. I dont believe it was for free oil (thats just silly - and when I hear callers recite that crap I worry about their intelligence). However, I belive it is ok, to admit a mistake. I also believe it is ok, to adapt to changing situations. For example, I think MORe troops are necessary to expedite the cleansing process of Iraq so that eventually we can leave.

The weopans inspectors also reiterated that they had no evidence throughout that process that Saddam was able to act upon his desires and reconstitute any programs. "Cat and Mouse" sure but with the little evidence we had during that time, and the express evidence we got just before the bombs dropped, and the lack of evidence the Germans and French warned us about, "I Am Not Convinced!"....should have given us pause, on those grounds. I think we should've gone in and gotten Saddam out for Genocide, and I was gung ho just on that alone. A little more time would've gone a long way.

Now I think we need more troops, and more rebuilding officials.

With me its all about honesty. Lie to me and I will thrash you.

Last night, the Speaker of the House, when asked to clarify what bill they were debating. That it was NOT the democratic bill, but a Republican bill, the Speaker said that THAT is up for debate. He WAS LYING!!! It was the absolute Moral low point of the entire night, for me. It was NOT up for debate, it was factual and for him to say that exposedhis partisanship, his skewed vision, and his willingness to lie. I thought that THAT was despicable.

[Dutch]

Now I think we need more troops, and more rebuilding officials.

I'm sure that will go over great with everybody. How would the AP or Reuters article read, I wonder...

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I'm sure that will go over great with everybody. How would the AP or Reuters article read, I wonder...

Didnt cross my mind because to me, you have to do what is required to get the job done. The current troop levels and policy building apparatus is not at a level wherein, I feel, the job can be done at the fastest pace possible w/o sacrificing quality. Therefore, I agree with McCain. I dont care how the newspapers write it...it is the right thing to do.

care to comment on the Republican speakers ass showing last night? I certainly hope you'll agree that it was a horrible comment he made.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Didnt cross my mind because to me, you have to do what is required to get the job done.

I agree.

The current troop levels and policy building apparatus is not at a level wherein, I feel, the job can be done at the fastest pace possible w/o sacrificing quality. Therefore, I agree with McCain.

President Bush and Donald Rumsfeld take their advice directly about trooop levels directly from the field commanders. You know, the guys that are there and the guys that actually have to rotate in and out of theatre.

I dont care how the newspapers write it...it is the right thing to do.

I wish they would write it with both sides of the coin being represented fairly.

care to comment on the Republican speakers ass showing last night? I certainly hope you'll agree that it was a horrible comment he made.

I didn't watch it. I rarely watch C-SPAN. (I don't have a TV near my computer.)

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Dutch

President Bush and Donald Rumsfeld take their advice directly about trooop levels directly from the field commanders. You know, the guys that are there and the guys that actually have to rotate in and out of theatre.

Well, this administration is not known for taking advice or information well that doesn't fit exactly into their plan. This plays right into what the Dem. was saying was that, the Generals are saying one thing behind closed doors and another thing to their bosses, etc.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I didn't watch it. I rarely watch C-SPAN. (I don't have a TV near my computer.)

It was a lie, that was there for everyone to see. the place exploded and when he saw that it wasn't going to die down he had to coalesce and admit that it was not a Dem. bill but the republican one. It was explosive.