Israel-More harm than good?

[stevew]

1. I think the Jews are gods people.
2. obviously the holocaust was horrible
3. Iran is run by a bunch of fuckin pricks


All that being said, I'm pretty over Israel and their incessant saber rattling. This war/attack thing on Iran has potential for some dire consequences to the American economy. Obviously I'm not an economist(yet) but I'd think the outcome could easily be 6-8 dollar/gallon gas. Not to mention us getting drug into another conflict we can't afford.

I watched some of the republican debates and I get the feeling that there is way too much of a wish for synergy of our interests with them. As an ally, they really do not bring enough to the table to justify their overhead.

And it seems that nobody is willing to call them out on their bullshit, if only to not to appear to be anti semitic.

Is this irrational love fest between out nations due to some "end times" type belief or something? I really just don't get it.

[Warhammer]

They were the only Western-style democracy in that area of the world. That's the primary reason we supported them.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

They were the only Western-style democracy in that area of the world. That's the primary reason we supported them.

+1

to paraphrase eisenhower, 'the middle east will become an area of supreme strategic importance over the next century.'

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

They were the only Western-style democracy in that area of the world. That's the primary reason we supported them.

Agreed, although I don't think the fact that there are plenty of wealthy and influential Jewish-Americans should be discounted either. Nor that Israel is the site of the greatest historical events of Christianity, in its various forms by far the primary type of faith found in the US.

[ISiddiqui]

I think "More harm than good" has been more than established. Especially when Isreal basically treats the US like dirt because they feel we'll never leave them - they take us for granted in the worst way possible.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Quite possibly the most realistic nation left on the planet.

That seems to resonate with a fair number of Americans, as does their seeming ability to accomplish necessary tasks without the degree of politically correct restraint popular elsewhere (see: Iranian scientist, exploding)

In spite of religious or even political differences, I believe there's considerable respect/admiration for Israel as a nation because of how they conduct some of their business (even though I think the successes are overplayed without due consideration of some of their failures)

[Rizon]

Israel is the #1 benefactor of military aid by the US, so we are kind of like butt-buddies.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by Rizon

Israel is the #1 benefactor of military aid by the US, so we are kind of like butt-buddies.

Sure, they buy a lot of stuff from us, but don't we give them the money to buy it with?

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

i've always considered them a quasi-colonial nato state.

[Rizon]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

Sure, they buy a lot of stuff from us, but don't we give them the money to buy it with?

Yeah, we throw them a couple bucks every year.

[miked]

I would also add that there's a tremendous amount of research that comes out of Israel, both for our weapons technologies and medicine. It does get rather tiresome, the constant threat of battles from Israel, but I also think some of our "might" is derived from our ability to protect democratic interests, especially in regions such as that.

[Autumn]

Don't doubt that much of what Israel says and does in regards to Iran is approved of by American diplomats. Israel plays the bad cop to our good cop, it's all part of the diplomatic game and doesn't really change anything. The ones making the decisions in Israel, the US and Iran all know the real situation.

[DaddyTorgo]

I've been saying this for years though. The "special place" that Israel holds in US foreign policy is quite possibly (unless I'm forgetting something) the single worst foreign policy decision this country has made since the end of WWII.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I've been saying this for years though. The "special place" that Israel holds in US foreign policy is quite possibly (unless I'm forgetting something) the single worst foreign policy decision this country has made since the end of WWII.

Israel wasn't our special friend until the 60s. We considered it France and Britain's problem, not ours. We were friends with a lot of the Middle East instead

[molson]

Isn't part of the reason for the relationship/influence to keep Israel from attacking everyone? As in ya, more harm than good, obviously, but the alternative is possibly nuclear war in the middle east. I'm not an expert on this region of the country or anything, but if we stopped supporting Israel and cut off that relationship, they'd be about 1,000% more aggressive, right?

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by molson

Isn't part of the reason for the relationship/influence to keep Israel from attacking everyone? As in ya, more harm than good, obviously, but the alternative is possibly nuclear war in the middle east. I'm not an expert on this region of the country or anything, but if we stopped supporting Israel and cut off that relationship, they'd be about 1,000% more aggressive, right?

That's kind of what I always thought. America was basically Ritalin for Israel.

[Autumn]

Now I'm imagining Obama on the phone every night, having to talk the Israeli Prime Minister down. "That sounds awful. I can't believe they did that. Uh-huh, uh-huh. No, I don't think you should do that. Let's sleep on it first."

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Now I'm imagining Obama on the phone every night, having to talk the Israeli Prime Minister down. "That sounds awful. I can't believe they did that. Uh-huh, uh-huh. No, I don't think you should do that. Let's sleep on it first."

You gotta throw "I told you that bitch crazy" in there somewhere, too...

[molson]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Now I'm imagining Obama on the phone every night, having to talk the Israeli Prime Minister down. "That sounds awful. I can't believe they did that. Uh-huh, uh-huh. No, I don't think you should do that. Let's sleep on it first."

That's pretty much how imagine it going down with Obama, Bush, Clinton and further back. "I hear ya man, but listen, we have talks coming up. Big talks. Let's see what happens there and then we'll re-evaluate things." (with Bush and Clinton also throwing in the occasional - "oh ya, we'll blow up some Arabs, sure, sure, then we can look if that helps everything and re-evaluate in 2 years."

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

Israel wasn't our special friend until the 60s. We considered it France and Britain's problem, not ours. We were friends with a lot of the Middle East instead

Yes - but I was just picking that as the starting point of the "modern" US period.

[DanGarion]

It seems to me that most of the reason why a lot of Middle East countries hate us is because of our relationship with Israel.

[Grover]

I think they are more harmful than they are good for the region, but I've long been a proponent of the two state solution with the Palestinians. They're acerbic to the rest of the Middle East because they know their big brother / protector the United States has their back. Not to mention that the United States is so blindly loyal to Israel that Israel can essentially ignore what the States says to them. I'm also pretty sure that Israeli foreign policy is much more popular in the United States than it is in Israel.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

It seems to me that most of the reason why a lot of Middle East countries hate us is because of our relationship with Israel.

Don't let the media allow you to buy into this. That is just a convenient excuse. The Arabs are a lot like a bunch of siblings. They beat the hell out of each other, but the minute one of them feels wronged, they band together and start going after the one they feel wronged them.

Do some digging on the history of the area, the only nation to instill SOME degree of stability was the Ottoman Empire.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Do some digging on the history of the area, the only nation to instill SOME degree of stability was the Ottoman Empire.

Plus, what they did for living room furniture can never be underestimated.

[flounder]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Don't let the media allow you to buy into this. That is just a convenient excuse. The Arabs are a lot like a bunch of siblings. They beat the hell out of each other, but the minute one of them feels wronged, they band together and start going after the one they feel wronged them.

Do some digging on the history of the area, the only nation to instill SOME degree of stability was the Ottoman Empire.

There's a lot of truth to this. Arab nations claim to be indignant about the treatment of the Palestinians, but Arabs have been far crueler to them than the Israelis have.

That being said, being involved in these endless conflicts is a no-win situation for the US.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

It seems to me that most of the reason why a lot of Middle East countries hate us is because of our relationship with Israel.

But the Middle East countries seem to want us to care of their "allies" that are causing tensions with Israels behind closed doors.

Originally Posted by Grover

I think they are more harmful than they are good for the region, but I've long been a proponent of the two state solution with the Palestinians. They're acerbic to the rest of the Middle East because they know their big brother / protector the United States has their back. Not to mention that the United States is so blindly loyal to Israel that Israel can essentially ignore what the States says to them. I'm also pretty sure that Israeli foreign policy is much more popular in the United States than it is in Israel.

Palestinians seem to want it all-or-nothing, when it comes to Israel.

I disagree on the notion of Israeli foreign policy being more popular here than in Israel.

[Abe Sargent]

The problem with our support of Israel is that we take it to inconsistent levels. For example, we get upset at others failing to follow UN decisions, but we've never forced Israel out of the Sheba Farms. You are allowed to be inconsistent from a realpolitick point of view, but it can hurt you with others who don;t adhere to that view of diplomacy and relations.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Grover

They're acerbic to the rest of the Middle East because they know their big brother / protector the United States has their back.

Actually, Israel has done a very good job of taking care of business in the Middle East without our direct support. Read a book about the 1967 Six-Day war where they basically annihilated a combined Arab force in less than a week.

[panerd]

Israelis: Iran Behind Bangkok Bombings, 'Coordinated Attacks' Around the World - Yahoo! News

Been seeing a lot of this type of stuff in the news lately. Reminds me of the "weapons as mass destruction" lead up to the Iraq war.

[sterlingice]

It's nice to have a puppet in the region for the more hawkish interests at home. That way when they do something crazy, you can throw your hands up and say "See- it's not us. It's just our crazy friend. We can't control him". Need an Iranian nuclear plant taken offline with none of your fingerprints on the job? They're your guy. Need some weapons and methods developed that should proabably should be war crimes? Go to your sympathetic yet crazy neighbor who is ruthlessly efficient at what he does. Need a 5 day war fought in a region to suppress groups you don't like? You know who to turn to.

Unfortunately, your "crazy friend" is actually a bit crazy so you can't always control him and there will be collateral. But don't think there aren't a lot of moments where we use them as much as they use us.

SI

[panerd]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

It's nice to have a puppet in the region for the more hawkish interests at home. That way when they do something crazy, you can throw your hands up and say "See- it's not us. It's just our crazy friend. We can't control him". Need an Iranian nuclear plant taken offline with none of your fingerprints on the job? They're your guy. Need some weapons and methods developed that should proabably should be war crimes? Go to your sympathetic yet crazy neighbor who is ruthlessly efficient at what he does. Need a 5 day war fought in a region to suppress groups you don't like? You know who to turn to.

Unfortunately, your "crazy friend" is actually a bit crazy so you can't always control him and there will be collateral. But don't think there aren't a lot of moments where we use them as much as they use us.

SI

I follow what you're saying but are you sure the United States and Israel aren't the exact opposite sides of the relationship from where you see them?