POL- N. Korea aims missles at Hawaii?

[Lathum]

U.S. Fortifies Hawaii to Meet Threat From Korea - WSJ.com

[DaddyTorgo]

meh.

[Lathum]

yeah, I think it was made a bigger deal here but was surprised it wasn't brought up.

[JonInMiddleGA]

{shrug}

I don't mean that in a disinterested way, more of a "this was part of last night's family discussion over dinner" (TV was on the restaurant so it was kind of in our face).

Bottom line for me right now is that I don't gain much from speculating about what NK or the US will do or won't do and there isn't much we can do but wait & see. Obviously be prepared of course & Gates seems to be making the right noises about that but in the end we can't do much but wait to see what move the nutjob in Pyongang makes.

And in this instance, I'll pass on trying to guess whether Obama will have the right response or the wrong response since there's such a wide field of possibilities he might have to respond to.

[DaddyTorgo]

yeah...they're such an irrational actor i've got no idea what they'll do - all we can do is wait and be prepared, but that being said i'm not overly concerned with the danger of it at this point

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

yeah...they're such an irrational actor i've got no idea what they'll do - all we can do is wait and be prepared, but that being said i'm not overly concerned with the danger of it at this point

I'm more worried about them firing a missile at some random point in the Pacific & hitting Hawaii by accident than I am about them aiming at Hawaii.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'm more worried about them firing a missile at some random point in the Pacific & hitting Hawaii by accident than I am about them aiming at Hawaii.

- when did you and I start agreeing on so much. Is this like the Star Trek mirror universe?

[duckman]

I'll actually worry about one of North Korea's long range missiles when one actually goes long distance.

[Lathum]

I bring people together

[k0ruptr]

not worried...but every other local person I over hear lately is talking about how we might get nuked. heh.

[Big Fo]

Hawaii is 4500 miles away from them and the furthest NK can reach is 4000 miles apparently. Maybe they'll scare some fish.

[Dutch]

I wouldn't be too concerned about them bombing Hawaii (or fish in the sea).

I would be more concerned with the long range ballistic R&D they are performing without protest. That technology can be proliferated. I'd also continue to remain concerned about their knowledge of (and capability to build) nuclear weapons. That too can be proliferated for the right price. Continuing on, I'd be concerned about how poor North Korea is. They could sure use the money. So basically, they are a very dangerous nation and not to be taken lightly.

[fantom1979]

Originally Posted by duckman

I'll actually worry about one of North Korea's long range missiles when one actually goes long distance.

QFT

I am not sure why they would fire at Hawaii, there are plenty of US targets a lot closer and a lot easier to hit. Japan and South Korea come to mind.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

Hawaii is 4500 miles away from them and the furthest NK can reach is 4000 miles apparently. Maybe they'll scare some fish.

It's only a matter of time.

[Big Fo]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I wouldn't be too concerned about them bombing Hawaii (or fish in the sea).

I would be more concerned with the long range ballistic R&D they are performing without protest. That technology can be proliferated. I'd also continue to remain concerned about their knowledge of (and capability to build) nuclear weapons. That too can be proliferated for the right price. Continuing on, I'd be concerned about how poor North Korea is. They could sure use the money. So basically, they are a very dangerous nation and not to be taken lightly.

All good points. Poor, crazy, and WMDs are a bad combination.

[JohnnyBGood]

I did quite a bit of research on NK in back in college a few years ago. If anyone is interested in learning about what goes on there, I highly recommend the book "The Aquariums of Pyongyang" written by a NK prisoner escapee... absolutely shocking stuff. Quick read too, can probably finish in one sitting. Since then, one of my favorite things to do for giggles is check out the DPRK central news agency where you can find all sorts of hot off the wire propaganda such as how Kim Jung Il played a round of golf today and shot 30 hole in ones! Nevermind that there is only 18 holes.

News From KOREAN CENTRAL NEWS AGENCY of DPRK

[Shkspr]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

Poor, crazy, and WMDs are a bad combination.

I'm pretty sure I dated this girl in college.

[OldGiants]

Book 'em, Danno.

[dawgfan]

I'm certainly no expert on North Korea, so someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but shouldn't there be enormous pressure on China to be the primary ones dealing with the North Korea problem?

China wants to be a superpower, they feel that the Korean peninsula is in their "sphere of influence" (much like the U.S. feels about Central America), they supported and propped up the North Korean regime pretty much from the start - this is their mess, and if they want to be taken seriously as a superpower, let's see them act like one and fix the Korean problem.

[Klinglerware]

The Chinese won't act because they don't perceive North Korea as a threat.

On the other hand, the Chinese are concerned about a remilitarized Japan. If the North Korean missile capability develops sufficiently enough to scare Japan into an arms race, the Chinese will be more likely to step into the situation.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

The Chinese won't act because they don't perceive North Korea as a threat.

True, but this is where the whole idea of China being taken seriously as a superpower comes into play. North Korea is clearly a rogue nation, and whether or not they pose a direct threat to China or not, they are a threat to the civilized world. And if they would be highly resistant to any U.S. military action against North Korea without their tacit approval (and they would be), they need to be a significant part of the solution to the obvious problem that is Kim Jung Il - it's their backyard, they supported that regime for decades and they'll be affected one way another once that regime finally collapses.

Time for them to step up.

[Chief Rum]

I don't think China is waiting for or believes it needs the world's acknowledgement of it as a superpower. I think China already believes they're a superpower, and do not to need to do anything more to buffer that belief. Thus moving them back to the "North Korea is not interested in threatening us, so we don't care" mode.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

True, but this is where the whole idea of China being taken seriously as a superpower comes into play. North Korea is clearly a rogue nation, and whether or not they pose a direct threat to China or not, they are a threat to the civilized world. And if they would be highly resistant to any U.S. military action against North Korea without their tacit approval (and they would be), they need to be a significant part of the solution to the obvious problem that is Kim Jung Il - it's their backyard, they supported that regime for decades and they'll be affected one way another once that regime finally collapses.

Time for them to step up.

But what do they get for stepping up? China is going to act in their self interest. What benefit do they get for calming down N. Korea? As long as they can keep the shooting from breaking out I think China is quite content allowing the N. Koreans to cause trouble for the US and Japan.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

But what do they get for stepping up? China is going to act in their self interest. What benefit do they get for calming down N. Korea? As long as they can keep the shooting from breaking out I think China is quite content allowing the N. Koreans to cause trouble for the US and Japan.

+1

I'd also add that even if you assume China has the slightest desire to help the US & Japan with this matter, the problem is that even if they were to apply pressure by cutting off funding to NK, the NK government would be perfectly fine with letting a few hundred thousand citizens starve to death.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

But what do they get for stepping up? China is going to act in their self interest. What benefit do they get for calming down N. Korea?

The most obvious would be avoiding WW III on their doorstep. Of course that assumes that they don't want that.

[Wolfpack]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

+1

I'd also add that even if you assume China has the slightest desire to help the US & Japan with this matter, the problem is that even if they were to apply pressure by cutting off funding to NK, the NK government would be perfectly fine with letting a few hundred thousand citizens starve to death.

Or better yet, "mass migrate" over the border into China.

[fantom1979]

A U.S. Navy destroyer is tailing a North Korean ship suspected of carrying illicit weapons toward Myanmar in what could be the first test of new U.N. sanctions against the North over its recent nuclear test, a leading TV network said Sunday.

Report: NKorea ship suspected of carrying missiles - Yahoo! News

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by JohnnyBGood

Since then, one of my favorite things to do for giggles is check out the DPRK central news agency where you can find all sorts of hot off the wire propaganda such as how Kim Jung Il played a round of golf today and shot 30 hole in ones! Nevermind that there is only 18 holes.

News From KOREAN CENTRAL NEWS AGENCY of DPRK

Awesome. That's like one of my hobbies of going to Pravda and reading about the aliens or bigfoot or other crazy conspiracies.

(or looking at Fox News)

SI

[StLee]

Originally Posted by JohnnyBGood

I did quite a bit of research on NK in back in college a few years ago. If anyone is interested in learning about what goes on there, I highly recommend the book "The Aquariums of Pyongyang" written by a NK prisoner escapee... absolutely shocking stuff. Quick read too, can probably finish in one sitting. Since then, one of my favorite things to do for giggles is check out the DPRK central news agency where you can find all sorts of hot off the wire propaganda such as how Kim Jung Il played a round of golf today and shot 30 hole in ones! Nevermind that there is only 18 holes.

News From KOREAN CENTRAL NEWS AGENCY of DPRK

Hah! I tried to open that site, but apparently it is a blocked site in South Korea. I got a warning from Korea's government that the site is an illegal site.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

The most obvious would be avoiding WW III on their doorstep. Of course that assumes that they don't want that.

I doubt they think its going to happen. Of course, if NK does launch a missile at Japan or Hawaii, I'm sure China will act shocked and send troops in, leading to few governments to officially blame China for letting things get to that point.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I doubt they think its going to happen. Of course, if NK does launch a missile at Japan or Hawaii, I'm sure China will act shocked and send troops in, leading to few governments to officially blame China for letting things get to that point.

If NK actually fires a missle toward Hawaii and they don't get 10 right up their ass within a half hour, I'll be livid.

[Big Fo]

North Korea has threatened to wipe us off the face of the Earth.

NKorea threatens US; world anticipates missile

By HYUNG-JIN KIM, Associated Press Writer Hyung-jin Kim, Associated Press Writer – Wed Jun 24, 8:51 am ET

SEOUL, South Korea – North Korea threatened Wednesday to wipe the United States off the map as Washington and its allies watched for signs the regime will launch a series of missiles in the coming days.

Off China's coast, a U.S. destroyer was tailing a North Korean ship suspected of transporting illicit weapons to Myanmar in what could be the first test of U.N. sanctions passed to punish the nation for an underground nuclear test last month.

The Kang Nam left the North Korean port of Nampo a week ago with the USS John S. McCain close behind. The ship, accused of transporting banned goods in the past, is believed bound for Myanmar, according to South Korean and U.S. officials.

The new U.N. Security Council resolution requires member states to seek permission to inspect suspicious cargo. North Korea has said it would consider interception a declaration of war and on Wednesday accused the U.S. of seeking to provoke another Korean War.

"If the U.S. imperialists start another war, the army and people of Korea will ... wipe out the aggressors on the globe once and for all," the official Korean Central News Agency said.

The warning came on the eve of the 59th anniversary of the start of the three-year Korean War, which ended in a truce in 1953, not a peace treaty, leaving the peninsula in state of war.

The U.S. has 28,500 troops in South Korea to protect against an outbreak of hostilities.

Tensions have been high since North Korea launched a long-range rocket in April and then conducted its second underground atomic test on May 25.

Reacting to U.N. condemnation of that test, North Korea walked away from nuclear disarmament talks and warned it would fire a long-range missile.

North Korea has banned ships from the waters off its east coast starting Thursday through July 10 for military exercises, Japan's Coast Guard said.

South Korea's Yonhap news agency reported Wednesday that the North may fire a Scud missile with a range of up to 310 miles (500 kilometers) or a short-range ground-to-ship missile with a range of 100 miles (160 kilometers) during the no-sail period.

A senior South Korean government official said the no-sail ban is believed connected to North Korean plans to fire short- or mid-range missiles. He spoke on condition of anonymity, citing department policy.

U.S. defense and counterproliferation officials in Washington said they also expected the North to launch short- to medium-range missiles. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive intelligence.

South Korea will expedite the introduction of high-tech unmanned aerial surveillance systems and "bunker-buster" bombs in response to North Korea's provocations, the Chosun Ilbo newspaper said, citing unidentified ruling party members.

Meanwhile, a flurry of diplomatic efforts were under way to try getting North Korea to return to disarmament talks.

Russia's top nuclear envoy, Alexei Borodavkin, said after meeting with his South Korean counterpart that Moscow is open to other formats for discussion since Pyongyang has pulled out of formal six-nation negotiations.

In Beijing, top U.S. and Chinese defense officials also discussed North Korea. U.S. Defense Undersecretary Michele Flournoy was heading next to Tokyo and Seoul for talks.

South Korea has proposed high-level "consultations" to discuss North Korea with the U.S., Russia, China and Japan.

___

Associated Press writers Jae-soon Chang in Seoul; Pauline Jelinek, Pamela Hess and Lolita Baldor in Washington and Min Lee in Hong Kong contributed to this report.

I'm getting pretty tired of these guys.

[PilotMan]

NK is just a little kid throwing a big ass temper tantrum. For the past number of years they have been involved in a series of saber rattling-brinkmanship-concessions cycles.

This all seems to be along the same lines. In my opinion they are wholly insignificant, and it's time for the rest of the world to realize that the crazy ramblings of this administration are vastly out of step from the rest of the world.

[SteveMax58]

I think Obama should challenge this guy to a haircut match and just end this petty rhetoric.

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

NK is just a little kid throwing a big ass temper tantrum. For the past number of years they have been involved in a series of saber rattling-brinkmanship-concessions cycles.

This all seems to be along the same lines. In my opinion they are wholly insignificant, and it's time for the rest of the world to realize that the crazy ramblings of this administration are vastly out of step from the rest of the world.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but what would that "realization" consist of? What would change as a result of that realization in your ideal scenario?

[PilotMan]

Well I'm tired here, but here we go.

I would like other counties to step up and say, "Hey, the world doesn't consist of only the US." We have a say too, and we say what they say, you're an idot, and we won't tolerate you acting like this either."

For now, it seems like it is still the US and the leader, focal point, target, head insurrectionist, whatever you want to call it. Let the rest of the world say what we have been saying all along. Let's continue to let them beat their chest, but not give them what they want which is a center stage from which to do it.

Does anyone honestly believe that they are going to provoke war with anyone? At best they sell some stuff to the bad guys. That's what we need to be mindful of.

NK doens't matter at all beyond their little sphere of influence. Certainly not in global matters, and crazy rantings about nukes and war are meant to be attention getters. The more we play them off and cause them to lose face the worse position it puts them in.

Maybe their leader would get desparate enough to try something at that point, just to prove a point, but then maybe other countries step up and assume the lead in isolating them from the rest of civilization as well.

Call thier bluff, they lack the means with their broke, prison state of a country. It's the old USSR all over again.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Call thier bluff, they lack the means with their broke, prison state of a country. It's the old USSR all over again.

+1

But I will add that I honestly believe calling their bluff will lead NK to actually fire a (non-nuke) missile over Tokyo...or fire something into S Korea (though I suspect they'll try to avoid areas that they believe US troops are stationed). But giving in with more concessions will accomplish nothing either...other than to continue the welfare of a country(albeit a hijacked country) that has no interest in reciprocating the good will, and in fact, works daily to counter the interests of said welfare donors.

It's unfortunate...but we just aren't filled with a world of noble leaders who are willing to proactively take stands against this type of backwards-thinking posturing. But while I was not pro-Obama during the election, I am tending to like the dilemna(or spotlight if you will) he puts the rest of the world into with his stand back approach.

It basically forces the rest of the world leaders to overcome their own political expediency of bashing the US "at home", yet going along and making it appear that the "big bad US bully made us do it". I think it's absolutely brilliant, personally.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by JohnnyBGood

I did quite a bit of research on NK in back in college a few years ago. If anyone is interested in learning about what goes on there, I highly recommend the book "The Aquariums of Pyongyang" written by a NK prisoner escapee... absolutely shocking stuff. Quick read too, can probably finish in one sitting. Since then, one of my favorite things to do for giggles is check out the DPRK central news agency where you can find all sorts of hot off the wire propaganda such as how Kim Jung Il played a round of golf today and shot 30 hole in ones! Nevermind that there is only 18 holes.

News From KOREAN CENTRAL NEWS AGENCY of DPRK

They have a Geocities website for their national news agency, but nukes. Time to move to the East Coast.

[Hammer]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

I would like other counties to step up and say, "Hey, the world doesn't consist of only the US." We have a say too, and we say what they say, you're an idot, and we won't tolerate you acting like this either."

For now, it seems like it is still the US and the leader, focal point, target, head insurrectionist, whatever you want to call it. Let the rest of the world say what we have been saying all along. Let's continue to let them beat their chest, but not give them what they want which is a center stage from which to do it.

Other countries really are not concerned about what the U.S. thinks about North Korea, they already have their own opinions, and in some cases have made them known. If they happen to share likewise values as the U.S. then naturally they tend to form an alliance. That doesn't mean to say they are just followers.

I was also under the impression the U.S. had genuine allies, who happened to have common beliefs and goals. The arrogant stance of some Americans, not all or even the majority, that think the U.S. is at the centre of the universe is what causes so much resentment towards the country. There are a number of countries, allies or otherwise, than could knock NC flat in a heartbeat. Its not just up to the U.S. to deal with, its a world wide issue.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Hammer

Its not just up to the U.S. to deal with, its a world wide issue.

It most certainly is, and I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of the world step up to the table on this issue.

[Hammer]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

It most certainly is, and I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of the world step up to the table on this issue.

But they have, you might not see it on the news if your American, but they have. The UK, where I come from, have publicly condemned North Korea. As part of the UN we are deciding on appropriate action, as it should be done - a worldwide body.

We could send a submarine in ourselves and they would never see it coming, as could a number of countries. Drop a nuke on their asses - but thats really not appropriate is it. I might be entirely wrong, but I sometimes wonder if Americans in general realise the capabilities of their allies, such as France and the UK. Sure we don't have the number of nukes you guys have, but the world is a small place these days, either country could pretty much destroy the world. I guess there are half a dozen or so countries that could now, in theory. Its not just up to the U.S. to solve worldwide issues, under the UN umbrella, as a team of countries with commonly held beliefs, its far more difficult for a rogue country to argue an issue.

Its human beings caught up in the middle of this, a few ass hats at the top are causing this problem. Sending in a ground force isn't really a great idea either, history has shown us that. The UN have to be allowed to do their job, if NC cross the line then there is no option but to use force. Until then its all about politics unfortunately. I really don't think the U.S. should continue as the worldwide enforcer, I love Obama's approach. If the UN and not the US is the enforcer, I think it will be better for everyone concerned.

[lungs]

Are there still restrictions on Japanese military strength from WW2? If so, lift them.

[billethius]

Originally Posted by Hammer

Its not just up to the U.S. to deal with, its a world wide issue.

It's neither. N. Korea is insignificant - all of this is just an attempt at further concessions.

More than anything else, dictators want to stay in power - and as crazy as the N. Korean government is, they know that launching a nuke at anyone is a quick way to get themselves thrown out of power (and likely killed).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by lungs

Are there still restrictions on Japanese military strength from WW2? If so, lift them.

Unless I'm extremely mistaken, their own constitution is what limits their military & they aren't all that keen on removing those limits.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Unless I'm extremely mistaken, their own constitution is what limits their military & they aren't all that keen on removing those limits.

Nevermind, then.

It would be nice to have a strong Japanese military in the region though. But if they don't want it, they don't want it.

[Autumn]

I think people underestimate the hold North Korea has over the U.S. and allies. The reason North Korea still exists in the state it does, and continues to push their luck successfully, is because they have what i believe is the largest concentration of artillery and firepower in the world within firing range of Seoul. The reason the U.S. doesn't just blow up their facilities or treat them like Iran is because they've got a real lever, the ability to attack a city of what, 20 million?, within minutes and devastate it.

Their power doesn't go much further than that, but that's quite a stranglehold and explains a lot about the way North Korea is treated by the rest of the world, I believe.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Unless I'm extremely mistaken, their own constitution is what limits their military & they aren't all that keen on removing those limits.

Well, some in Japan are keen, it's been a topic of a lot of discussion and some change in recent years.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by lungs

It would be nice to have a strong Japanese military in the region though. But if they don't want it, they don't want it.

Japan Self-Defense Forces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In theory, Japan's rearmament is thoroughly prohibited by Article 9 of the Japanese constitution which not only states, "The Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes", but also declares, "land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained." In practice, however, the Diet (or Parliament), which Article 41 of the Constitution defines as "the highest organ of the state power", established the Self-Defense Forces in 1954. Due to such a constitutional tension concerning the Forces' status, any attempt at enhancing the Forces' capabilities and budget tends to be politically controversial. Thus the JSDF has very limited capabilities to operate overseas, lacks long range offensive capabilities such as long-range surface-to-surface missiles, aerial refueling (as of 2004[update]), marines, amphibious units, or large caches of ammunitions. The Rules of Engagement are strictly defined by the Self-Defence Forces Act 1954.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Hammer

I might be entirely wrong, but I sometimes wonder if Americans in general realise the capabilities of their allies, such as France and the UK. If the UN and not the US is the enforcer, I think it will be better for everyone concerned.

(picks self up off floor)

Yeah, I'm going to go with the 'entirely wrong' comment as being accurate.

Trust me. No one wants the US to back away from the role of enforcer more than the US. With that said, if you're going to offer up France and the UN as the new enforcers, I'd say most of the US would rather remain the enforcer.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Hammer

could knock NC flat in a heartbeat.

I don't know, they looked pretty dominent this year. That championship game was decided before halftime.