Soccer Thread 2022-2023

[bhlloy]

It should have been either way, but he gave the yellow for the challenge to Havertz in error.

And yeah, plenty of players been sent off for less. Nowhere near a clear and obvious error, made worse by there being multiple mistakes that led to Ziyech staying on the field.

[miami_fan]

I know we are generally EPL/CL focused in this thread but this is a cool story and one I think we could all relate to at least when we fire up our favorite sports text sim.

Will Will Still still continue his incredible run? – The Oxford Student

Short version. Will Still was a youth player who stopped playing at 17. He also played Football Manager and Championship Manager. At 17, he became the assistant manager for Preston North End U14s as part of an internship. After that, he was a videographer and/or assistant until he got his first caretaker job at 25 years for a club in the Belgian second tier. He is now the permanent manager for the Ligue 1 club Reims and has lost one match in the eighteen matches since he was appointed. That was in the French Cup. And yes he took on PSG on the road and got a point.

One more thing. Because Still does not have his UEFA pro license, Reims has to pay a fine of £22,000 for each match that he takes charge of the team.

[flere-imsaho]

Playing FM for 5+ years* should automatically grant you a UEFA pro license.

*Or maybe you submit your Steam "hours played" number.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Playing FM for 5+ years* should automatically grant you a UEFA pro license.

*Or maybe you submit your Steam "hours played" number.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

It is going to be really interesting to hear why that is not a red card.

I feel like I learn something every week from Dale Johnson's column. I did not know that match commentators can hear the VAR dialogue though not the refs during these reviews. I wonder which match commentators have this access and if they continue to act clueless despite having at least this bit and supposedly having an understanding of how the system works. Once again, I listened to the match commentators on the EPL worldwide feed crushing the VAR for missing an obvious red card and for taking a long time to miss it.

The VAR Review: Ziyech red card explained, Saka penalty

Red card overturned: No violent conduct by Ziyech on Royal

What happened: Just before half-time, players from both sides squared up to each other. After a long period of deliberation, referee Stuart Attwell sent off Hakim Ziyech on the advice of his assistant, Darren Cann, alongside input from the VAR, Paul Tierney. However, after the red card was shown the VAR immediately instigated a review for a clear and obvious error (watch here.)

VAR decision: Red card cancelled.

VAR review: How could anyone be blamed for being confused? With the way VAR operates, everyone is left guessing -- and indeed assuming this was an error in process by the officials.

Yet despite all this, VAR protocol was followed to the letter. This wasn't a situation wrong on the pitch or in the VAR room.

In short, even though the VAR doesn't think Ziyech's actions are a red-card offence, he cannot tell Attwell they aren't a red-card offence before Attwell has decided whether or not they are a red-card offence. Clear?

Fans, pundits and indeed the match commentators (who can hear the VAR but, crucially, not the referee) were left to fill in the blanks. Until FIFA and the IFAB finally embrace the need to share the conversations between referee and VAR as they happen -- both on TV and inside the stadium -- the gap in understanding and acceptance will only widen.

To explain why the officials got this right, even though it took 4½ minutes, let's run through the timeline.

- Play stopped when Ziyech challenged Richarlison, which led to a melee between several players.
- After the situation had calmed down, referee Attwell discussed possible sanctions with Cann.
- Attwell decided to book Kai Havertz (foul) and Emerson Royal (push) for their roles.
- Cann told Attwell he had seen a hand go directly into a player's face, and this was a red-card offence.
- Attwell and Cann were not sure who had committed the red-card offence.
- Attwell told the VAR he was going to send a player off, and asked him to confirm who the player was.
- The VAR tells Attwell it was Ziyech.
- Attwell shows the red card to Ziyech, at which point the VAR's role in a review of a decision is active.
- The VAR tells the referee this is a clear and obvious error.
- Attwell reverses the decision at the monitor.

Why was Havertz booked?

Attwell books Havertz for an initial challenge on Richarlison before the flare up, when he took a swipe at the Tottenham striker in an attempt to trip him.
Shouldn't Ziyech have been cautioned for the original challenge?

Ziyech then tried to tackle Richarlison and may have won the ball. Despite the ensuing melee, Ziyech isn't considered to have committed any offence at this point. The VAR cannot tell Attwell that Ziyech should have been booked. The only way the VAR could intervene on this aspect is if Attwell had incorrectly cautioned Havertz for the challenge made by Ziyech, then the yellow could have been switched to Ziyech on mistaken identity. This could technically have resulted in Ziyech still being sent off -- the red card being downgraded to yellow for the push, and the yellow shown to Havertz transferred to him.

Why did the VAR help issue a red card, only to then advise it was wrong?

Attwell had turned to his left just as Ziyech raised his hand toward Royal and didn't see it. It's Cann who believed he saw the hand straight into the face from a Chelsea player.

A cornerstone of the VAR process is a referee must always take a decision first. So the VAR cannot make any suggestion about a possible sanction before the referee has made his own decision, but the VAR can help with identification. Ergo, a VAR can tell the referee who the offender was, but he couldn't tell the referee if he should or shouldn't show a red card. Attwell will say to Tierney he's going to show a red card, but ask for confirmation who that player is.

Once Attwell has shown the red card to Ziyech, that then brings the VAR into play for a review of the decision.

Why can't the VAR just tell the referee it's not a red card?

This situation was unlike many others. Though it took 4½ minutes, only the final 1½ minutes actually involved the VAR process -- the other three were used up by the melee, discussions among the match officials and the disciplinary action.

The only difference to a normal situation is that Cann couldn't identify Ziyech; the aid of the VAR was needed for that.

If you shift the process to a VAR giving his opinion on a decision before a referee has made his own mind up, then the VAR becomes the de facto referee. The on-field decision has to remain the most important element.

Was the VAR overturn correct?

As Ziyech clearly didn't push Royal directly in the face, his hand slipping off the Spurs player's shoulder, a red card can be viewed as a clear and obvious error.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The good news, I guess, is that uninformed me understood that explanation.

The bad news, I guess, is that it sure seems like a confusing clusterfuck getting there.

[flere-imsaho]

In top flight Rugby, you can hear the entire conversation between the referee and the equivalent of VAR (usually another ref in the stadium who has access to the video feed and can play it back from whatever angles are available). Once the match referee gets what he needs from the other, and confirms the sanctions, he then pulls the captains in and explains in detail (like Ed Hochuli back in the day) what's being assessed and why. It's unbelievably clear. There's no reason why soccer can't do this and it's immensely frustrating.

Also, with all respect to Dale Johnson, multiple calls here are wrong.

Havertz's attempted trip is indeed a direct free kick offense, but is only a yellow if a) he had been persistently fouling or b) it stops a promising attack, or c) he committed it in a reckless manner. I can't speak to a, but b and c are not true.

Ziyech's foul, on the other hand, was absolutely reckless, and an easy yellow card, regardless of whether or not he "got the ball". "Getting the ball" has never, ever, been codified in the rules as nullifying an offense, and it's used by commentators to excuse all sorts of reckless gameplay and fouls.

Royal then commits a direct free kick offense (both charges and pushes) on Ziyech, arguably in a reckless manner, so that should be a yellow as well.

Ziyech retaliates with a hand that while yes, it hits the shoulder first, clearly continues with force to the face. That's violent conduct, and it's a red.

Royal then feigns injury, which is an attempt to deceive the referee, known as "unsporting behavior" and is another yellow card.


Speaking as a youth soccer referee, the fact that all of this behavior is routinely let go at professional levels means my job is that much harder. Officiate to the rules, and you get yelled at by the coaches and parents. Don't officiate to the rules, and kids get hurt and games turn into melees.

[miami_fan]

Agreed but I think that says more about the standard of officiating in the game, the officiating process and the misinformation of the officiating process specifically VAR more than anything else.

[Ghost Econ]

We had a 13-0 today in the Dutch 2nd division.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HerAmY9tys

The amazing thing is, a goal was called off for offside and there was a goal line clearance from a defender. I cant imagine the humiliation of standing in goal and letting in a goal every 7 minutes.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Ghost Econ

We had a 13-0 today in the Dutch 2nd division.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HerAmY9tys

The amazing thing is, a goal was called off for offside and there was a goal line clearance from a defender. I cant imagine the humiliation of standing in goal and letting in a goal every 7 minutes.

It was in the 1st division, actually.

[Ghost Econ]

Yeah, guess I should have said 2nd level. Just didn't want to have to spell it.

[sovereignstar v2]

Arsenal score in extra extra extra extra extra extra extra extra time

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

[Sweed]

Hint to the director(?), or whoever is in the truck directing what camera to use... The players WITHOUT the ball are as important, and many times more important than the guy with the ball.

Consecutive counter attacks and the director is cutting to closeups of players with and without the ball.

First one the ball is nicked and the counter starts with ball down the right side, one player in the middle, and a second about half way between midfield and the sideline. No idea if these guys are getting into dangerous positions or creating opportunities, they can't be seen.

Second one about 2 minutes later. Goalkeeper gets the ball out quick to start a counter. The director's decision on camera to use? Close up of the striker of the team now on defense trotting up the pitch.

Two or three minutes later, attack team swings ball from right to left side player about 10 yds from endline, 5 yds out of the box. Attacking side has players entering the box trying to find space. Director decides a close up of player with the ball is the "best camera shot" for those of us watching the game.

WTF.

Rant over..

[miami_fan]

About that title run for Manchester United...

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Ghost Econ

Yeah, guess I should have said 2nd level. Just didn't want to have to spell it.

There are only 2 levels of professional football (Eredivisie and 1st division). The 2nd division and below is amateur level and at the current state of Dutch football, there's no promotion/relegation between the two, no club in 2nd division (and below) can meet the minimum requirements to play 1st division.
Technically, it makes quite the difference, blablabla, essentially, it's insanity such a score can happen at the professional level.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

essentially, it's insanity such a score can happen at the professional level.

I mean, 13-0, or anything like 7-0 and above..

[flere-imsaho]

Rub it in, you two.

[sovereignstar v2]

Touchdown!

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

[flere-imsaho]

[SirFozzie]

I love quoting this stat. This set the record for the biggest Liverpool win over Manchester United in a competitive fixture. The previous, 7-1, was set six years before the queen's death.

Except in that case, it was Queen Victoria. Yes, the 7-1 game was in EIGHTEEN NINETY FIVE.

[flere-imsaho]

Seven is also, coincidentally, the number of points Liverpool is behind Manchester United in the league table.

[kingfc22]

Another week and still 5 points a top the table.

[Ksyrup]

Leicester is in serious trouble. I get trying to skate near the bottom of the league this year and reset for next year with Rodgers as coach and getting their financial situation in order, but they are on a 5 game losing streak, 2 points from bottom. Everyone below them the past few weeks has won a game against competition in the top 8-10 and moved up. I wonder what it is going to take for them to start to panic and make a move, hoping a new coach can pull 8-10 points out of the last 10 or so games to stay afloat?

[flere-imsaho]

Your post had me curious to look at the table, and it's actually really close this year. There's usually a complete tire fire of a team or two, but either that's not the case or there's 8 of them. Points separating teams starting with 20-to-19:

1, 1, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 0, 8

The 8 is what separates Crystal Palace (12th) from Aston Villa (11th).

That's 9 teams finding it hard to accumulate points. Looking at Leicester's remaining schedule of 12 games, only Man City, Liverpool, Newcastle and maybe Brentford look like writeoffs. Can they grind out 16 points over the other 8 games to get to the 40 points that usually guarantees survival (and in the last 10 years that's only been necessary once, other years its ranged from 35 to 39)? Five draws and three wins?

[Ksyrup]

Their inability to get more draws is killing them. They are tied with Southampton for fewest wins + ties and they only reason they are 2 points up is 1 more win and 1 fewer tie. They only have 3 ties this year which is bad for a team that's not in the top 5.

I'm not sure they can do it, but the issue is it isn't totally up to them. Twelve games left and only 5 against teams in 13-20 position. That's not good both because of the strength of the rest of the schedule and the lack of chances to double up on someone.

[sovereignstar v2]

https://defector.com/investigation-r...na-family-feud

The report also details a growing dissatisfaction felt by Claudio and Danielle Reyna over their son's place on the USMNT, the culmination of which was the phone call with Stewart. While at the World Cup in Qatar, the Reynas became increasingly upset with their son's lack of playing time, at which point they both began to make vague threats over Berhalter's career. According to one unnamed source interviewed by investigators, Claudio and Danielle refused to get back on the team bus following the USMNT's group-stage match against Wales, in which Gio was an unused substitute. The next day, Danielle spoke to this source and said about Gregg Berhalter, "Once this tournament is over, I can make one phone call and give one interview, and his cool sneakers and bounce passes will be gone."

USMNT general manager Brian McBride had similar interactions with Claudio Reyna. He showed investigators a text message that Claudio sent him after the Wales match, which read: "Our entire family is disgusted, angry, and done with you guys. Don’t expect nice comments from anyone in our family about US Soccer. I’m being transparent to you not like the political clown show of the federation." McBride and Stewart met with the Reynas two days later to try and smooth things over, at which point Claudio told them, "you guys don't even know what we know about Gregg," without offering any details.

The report also details interactions between Claudio Reyna and U.S. Soccer in the years leading up to the World Cup, in which he consistently comes off as a nightmarish sports parent. In 2018, he sent an email complaining that a female referee was involved in a match that Gio played in, writing, "And in all honest [sic] can we get real and have male refs for a game like this. Its embarrassing guys. What are we trying to prove? A game like this deserves bett[e]r attention."

[miami_fan]

Do the Reynas have anything on Edin Terzić the Borussia Dortmund manager? Cause their boy ain't getting a whole lotta minutes over there either.

I did not think the Reynas could have looked worse but after reading the whole report, yeah they are the absolute worst. The dumbest thing about the whole situation is if they would have just ripped Berhalter's tactics and man management after the tournament was over, we would probably say it is weak for Gio's dad to rip the coach but Gio's dad also being a respected alumni of the USMNT so it is sort of ok. Oh and Berhalter would have been gone already IMO. What an embarrassment.

[GrantDawg]

Wow. I really want to go to a match or two here in Atlanta.

FIFA has increased the size of the 2026 World Cup for the second time by approving a bigger group stage for the inaugural 48-team event. It has created a 104-game schedule that will last nearly six weeks in the U.S., Canada and Mexico. https://t.co/WakPbaVcOG

— The Associated Press (@AP) March 14, 2023

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar v2

https://defector.com/investigation-r...na-family-feud

Looking at all those names in the report you would think they are talking about the USMNT starting line up a couple of decades back.

[sovereignstar v2]

..................

[RainMaker]

Feels like USMNT should cut ties with everyone involved in that mess. You have an incredible group of young talent now and shouldn't be playing these petty games with has-beens from a bygone era.

[miami_fan]

There better not be any extra time in this Haarland v RB Leipzig match.

[sovereignstar v2]

Haaland scores 5 UCL goals in 60 minutes before Pep subs him off lol. Tied with Messi and Adriano for most UCL goals in a single match.

[MIJB#19]

Well done FIFA. It wasn't the best decision (to go to 12 groups of 4), but at least it was the right call to abandon the 16 groups of 3 nonsense.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Well done FIFA. It wasn't the best decision (to go to 12 groups of 4), but at least it was the right call to abandon the 16 groups of 3 nonsense.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the expansion but you've got to give teams 3 matches.

Is the knockout round 16 teams or are they expanding that to 32?

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the expansion but you've got to give teams 3 matches.

Is the knockout round 16 teams or are they expanding that to 32?

3 matches wasn't the main issue, a group of 3 is bound to get fixed results.

Originally Posted by FIFA

The revised format mitigates the risk of collusion and ensures that all the teams play a minimum of three matches, while providing balanced rest time between competing teams.

The knockout phase will expand to 32 teams:
12 groups of 4 (3 RR matches)
16 2nd round matchups (8x 1st vs 3rd place teams, 4x 1st vs 2nd place, 4x 2nd vs 2nd place)
8 3rd round matches (potentially 4x 1st vs 1st place teams, 4x 1st place vs the 2nd vs 2nd winners)
quarterfinals
semifinals
final (and 3rd place match)

[MIJB#19]

And FIFA also decided on doing that 32-team Club Word Cup every 4 years, starting June 2025. Is FIFA* completely ignoring the news that more football players are cutting their national team careers short specifically because of the full calendar?

* yes, UEFA is also to blame for their equally silly desire to keep expanding... Not to mention every single one of the Super League plan clubs.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Do the Reynas have anything on Edin Terzić the Borussia Dortmund manager? Cause their boy ain't getting a whole lotta minutes over there either.

I'm starting to get the impression that maybe Gio isn't very good. I'm trying to remember the last U.S. Men's highly-touted prospect who did more than underwhelm.

In other news, Claudio is a great guy: Claudio Reyna said it was 'embarrassing' to have a female ref' in a 2018 game involving his son Gio | Daily Mail Online

'We obtained an email from Mr. Reyna in July 2018, in which Mr. Reyna stated, ''Field, referee everything!! So embarrassing all the way around.'' Mr. Reyna sent a follow-up email that stated: ''And in all honest [sic] can we get real and have male refs for a game like this. Its embarrassing guys. What are we trying to prove? A game like this deserves bett[e]r attention.'''

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Well done FIFA. It wasn't the best decision (to go to 12 groups of 4), but at least it was the right call to abandon the 16 groups of 3 nonsense.

I'm still in shock that they made the right choice.

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

And FIFA also decided on doing that 32-team Club Word Cup every 4 years, starting June 2025. Is FIFA* completely ignoring the news that more football players are cutting their national team careers short specifically because of the full calendar?

Have they said how much they're going to pay UEFA participants to entice them to field actual first team players?

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I'm starting to get the impression that maybe Gio isn't very good. I'm trying to remember the last U.S. Men's highly-touted prospect who did more than underwhelm.

I think that is harsh. Gio is a very good player. He, Pulisic, Tyler Adams, Weston Mckinnie etc. all range from good to very good players. None of them are Ballon d'Or winners or FIFA player of the year winners, or even CONCACAF player of the year winners. And that is okay. I would be happy with a national team of good to very good players with a proper tactical setup at this moment.

If the American players that go to Europe specifically were just highly touted, that would be one thing. Calling every American that goes to Europe to play some version of Captain America is a completely different thing. I think there is a benefit to playing in Europe because that is where the best players are and that should make the Americans better players. They don't all have to rush to Chelsea, Barcelona or Juventus to improve individually and be better players on the national team. It would be nice to see some of them go to a mid table club in one of the big five European leagues or even better go to Portugal, The Netherlands or Belgium first, be a major player on one of those teams and then move to a bigger club. Gio obviously still has some growing up to do off the field and right now he is nothing more than an impact sub on the field. He has regressed and needs to pick things back up. Maybe being a bigger fish in a smaller pond might benefit him. I think he can still come good though.

[miami_fan]

Probably the only time ever that I have been happy for Robbie Savage's lack of professionalism. Really cool moment most parents can identify with.

"My boy has scored!" ��

The heartwarming moment @RobbieSavage8 realises his son Charlie has scored his first senior goal for @FGRFC_Official. pic.twitter.com/1nFQS7yGGT

— BT Sport Score (@btsportscore) March 11, 2023

[miami_fan]

I don't think I have ever said this in the past and there is no guarantee that I will say this in the future so here we go.

Good Job English FA!

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-devon-65085553

[sovereignstar v2]

Haaland-less City just dismantled Lolpool

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

[Ksyrup]

Rodgers finally let go. Possibly too little too late.

[flere-imsaho]

Potter out at Chelsea as well.

Only these 9 clubs have had only one manager since the start of the season:

Liverpool, Man City, Brentford, Arsenal, West Ham, Fulham, Nottingham Forest, Newcastle, Manchested United.

And West Ham & Forest might sack their managers if they don't avoid the drop (or, in West Ham's case, even if they do). Plus, we'll see how Silva fares at Fulham once the full penalty from the FA is known. Crazy.

[miami_fan]

And Graham Potter has gotten the boot out of Chelsea FC. He spent 7 months at the club. Chelsea spent £21.5 million to buy Potter and his backroom staff from Brighton. Reportedly, Potter was making at least £10 million a year.

For seven months, 38 points and 11th place in the EPL.

The EPL is not a real place.

[flere-imsaho]

Who wants to bet that the new owners' deal model had forward projections that relied on Champions' League money and that was the line that couldn't be crossed?

Honestly, they should hire Rodgers. He's pretty decent at finding out what works with over-constructed rosters, and his clear desire to be able to routinely bring in better players isn't going to be stymied by Chelsea and their money in the way it was at Leicester.

And, now that I think of it, Potter should to go Leicester. More patient owners who are reasonably smart about roster-building and are more likely to go along with the way he wants to build it up, likely in the Championship next year. The upside is coming back up in a couple of years and looking as Brighton did before Potter moved to Chelsea.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Who wants to bet that the new owners' deal model had forward projections that relied on Champions' League money and that was the line that couldn't be crossed?

Honestly, they should hire Rodgers. He's pretty decent at finding out what works with over-constructed rosters, and his clear desire to be able to routinely bring in better players isn't going to be stymied by Chelsea and their money in the way it was at Leicester.

And, now that I think of it, Potter should to go Leicester. More patient owners who are reasonably smart about roster-building and are more likely to go along with the way he wants to build it up, likely in the Championship next year. The upside is coming back up in a couple of years and looking as Brighton did before Potter moved to Chelsea.

I don't think they have any shot of making the top four so they were probably better off keeping him as that is the one competition he had done well in. If they wanted Rodgers they could have given Leicester the money they gave Brighton. Chelsea probably would have had to pay less money given some of the issues with at that club.

If I am Potter and Rodgers, I wait until the summer. and see what clubs are actually in the Prem. But if Chelsea is handing out ten million pound checks, I am not sure you turn that down.

[Critch]

Supposedly Potter has already turned down Leicester and wants to wait til the summer. I'm guessing that a payoff for the 4.5 years left on his Chelsea contract means he doesnt have to jump at options.

[HomerSimpson98]

Geez - someone tell West Ham that tanking doesnt get them the number 1 pick in the draft. This is horrid.

[miami_fan]

Whoever stays up among the bottom five teams in the EPL are going to convince themselves they should keep the current manager only to fire that manager two weeks into next season.