Ethical Debate - Selling of Organs

RainMaker · 03-27-2011, 01:27 AM

I would like to propose an ethical question for which I don't really know which side I'd fall on. It would seem obvious initially where you should side until you look at the complete picture.

My question is whether we should allow individuals to sell an organ if they are healthy enough and it does not endanger their immediate life. I'm talking a kidney, or part of their liver. Perhaps not a free market, but a set upon price that would be given to individuals willing to do it.

Now the initial thought is that this is barbaric and exploitative. But here is the alternative viewpoint. Allowing individuals to sell their organs will result in more lives being saved. We likely will not need both our kidneys, and people who have donated part of their livers can lead full lives. Sure an issue can arise down the road, but the number of lives saved by someone receiving that kidney or liver far exceeds it.

So would you be for it if the end result was more lives saved?

Apathetic Lurker · 03-27-2011, 01:36 AM

Why not? The organs are theirs to sell if they want

Radii · 03-27-2011, 02:29 AM

This was discussed in superfreakanomics I think in a section on altruism? It swayed me, we should do it here.

MrBug708 · 03-27-2011, 02:42 AM

What would happen if a person sold their kidney, spent their money, and their one remaining kidney failed? Would Jude Law come busting down your door when you fell behind on the payments?

SteveMax58 · 03-27-2011, 06:26 AM

Well, I think in its purest sense, why not? But there seem to be a lot of potential slippery slopes that I would worry about & maybe some degree of mortgaging your future could result.

For instance...should a (apparently) healthy 20 year old be able to sell half of their kidney? They may be the ideal candidate (from the recipient's perspective) but should that option really be available to them, given that they may need it 40 years from now? Its one thing to donate it to your sick brother who needs it to live....its quite another to sell it to a stranger (even if thats via a government entity) just so you can pay for college tuition or to buy a car. Its sort of the same reason prostitution isn't legal, isn't it? I think there is a name for this type of dilemma but it escapes me this early in the morning (maybe some more coffee will help).

I'd also wonder what side effects this ultimately bring s to society. Do we end up with a poor class that not only has no money, but also has missing organs now? I dont know how to precisely illustrate it...but it conjures up images of post-apocalyptic wastelands where poor people have scars where they sold their organs years ago while mega-wealthy people can simply buy their next organ to replace their old one due to excessive lifestyle. I know that would not be the intention of this...and you can certainly set restrictions to it...but I'm not sure it doesn't happen anyway(or eventually).

RainMaker · 03-27-2011, 07:10 AM

Prostitution is an interesting comparision. Similar in a lot of ways. We're allowed to do it on our own with consenting adults, but not if money is involved. I guess the primary difference would be that this could actually save lives.

I guess it is a tough decision as to whether a healthy 20 year old should be allowed to sell one of his kidneys. He may need it 40 years from now, but someone else needs it now. If there is another 20 year old who would die without it, you'd still be in a net positive in years saved. An interesting article here shows that donors have relatively the same mortality rate as non-donors. Since it is relatively new, we probably have to wait a bit for longer term rates, but in the short term, it seems pretty damn safe.

Study finds that kidney donation does not increase long-term death rates - TIME Healthland

The exploitave nature of it would be concerning. But is it anymore exploitative than the military? We do target lower income kids and entice them with opportunity. There is a risk of death involved. You're also giving these kids an opportunity to go to college or buy a home or whatever else that they may not have had. So is it really that much different? If someone determines the risk is worth being able to go to college and raise a family, why not? And while many join the military for patriotic reasons, I'm sure there are others who would donate for the reason of saving a life.

cougarfreak · 03-27-2011, 07:27 AM

My daughter was born with three kidneys. My nephew has one. I kinda figure she should hold onto that extra, just in case.

Autumn · 03-27-2011, 07:58 AM

I don't see the fact that the 20 year old may need a kidney in 40 years as a discouraging factor. In the current system, yes, where needing a kidney can be a lifethreatening situation due to low organ donations. But if in 40 years you could depend on buying one from some other 20 year old, then there's less worry for you and for society as a whole it seems.

stevew · 03-27-2011, 09:42 AM

This is a 20th century debate. The debate should be on why we aren't moving forward with the type of research that can lead to growing kidneys and other organs.

SteveMax58 · 03-27-2011, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

This is a 20th century debate. The debate should be on why we aren't moving forward with the type of research that can lead to growing kidneys and other organs.

+1

DanGarion · 03-27-2011, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So would you be for it if the end result was more lives saved?

Do we really need more lives saved? People bitch about overpopulation all the time, well for fucks sake part of the reason is because we keep extending out lives. Now don't get me wrong I want to live forever, but we keep cheating death more and more.

Lathum · 03-27-2011, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Do we really need more lives saved? People bitch about overpopulation all the time, well for fucks sake part of the reason is because we keep extending out lives. Now don't get me wrong I want to live forever, but we keep cheating death more and more.

Is this post serious?

DanGarion · 03-27-2011, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

Is this post serious?

It's half serious.

Lathum · 03-27-2011, 12:09 PM

Well I think in terms of organ donation the majority of people who get organs have a lot of life left. It isn't like we are extending the lives of 85 year old people. My Mother in Law had a heart transplant and I for one am grateful for modern medicine and the person who was her organ donor that gave the ultimate gift.

So while you or others may bitch about overpopulation, every life extended is someones mother, daughter, or grandmother that will now get to spend precious time with a loved one.

DanGarion · 03-27-2011, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

Well I think in terms of organ donation the majority of people who get organs have a lot of life left. It isn't like we are extending the lives of 85 year old people. My Mother in Law had a heart transplant and I for one am grateful for modern medicine and the person who was her organ donor that gave the ultimate gift.

So while you or others may bitch about overpopulation, every life extended is someones mother, daughter, or grandmother that will now get to spend precious time with a loved one.

Settle down, I didn't even tell you which half was serious.

TroyF · 03-27-2011, 12:13 PM

This was discussed in SuperFreakonimics and I've always wondered why this was a big deal. It's your body part, do as you please with it.

Pumpy Tudors · 03-27-2011, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Settle down, I didn't even tell you which half was serious.

This is the funniest post I've ever seen.

johnnyshaka · 03-27-2011, 01:05 PM

Why not pump more money into finding a way to "artificially" create or develop organs...through cloning or some other scientific means?

Autumn · 03-27-2011, 01:19 PM

Yeah, Pumpy, why not?

Pumpy Tudors · 03-27-2011, 02:31 PM

I stay away from organs as much as possible.

Suburban Rhythm · 03-27-2011, 06:30 PM

Pumpy I've heard that you offered an organ to Kathy Griffin, and went as far as trying to cram it inside her yourself.

Young Drachma · 03-27-2011, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

I'd also wonder what side effects this ultimately bring s to society. Do we end up with a poor class that not only has no money, but also has missing organs now? I dont know how to precisely illustrate it...but it conjures up images of post-apocalyptic wastelands where poor people have scars where they sold their organs years ago while mega-wealthy people can simply buy their next organ to replace their old one due to excessive lifestyle. I know that would not be the intention of this...and you can certainly set restrictions to it...but I'm not sure it doesn't happen anyway(or eventually).

Pretty much.

But then rich folks would argue that it's okay, because it implores those poor folks to take better care of their bodies so they can eventually sell their parts. That it's a "win-win."

I can't see any ethical way this would work. The current system stinks, too.

EagleFan · 03-27-2011, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

Pumpy I've heard that you offered an organ to Kathy Griffin, and went as far as trying to cram it inside her yourself.

"She" said.. "No thanks, I have one of my own." ???

EagleFan · 03-27-2011, 08:08 PM

Selling of organs opens up too much of a slippery slope and in so many different directions.

03-27-2011, 07:27 AM	#7
cougarfreak College Starter Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Out of Grad School Hell :)	My daughter was born with three kidneys. My nephew has one. I kinda figure she should hold onto that extra, just in case. __________________ “I don’t like the Cubs,” Joey Votto said. “And I’m not going to pat anybody with a Cubs uniform on the back."

03-27-2011, 02:31 PM	#20
Pumpy Tudors Bounty Hunter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Pittsburgh, PA	I stay away from organs as much as possible. __________________ No, I am not Batman, and I will not repair your food processor.

03-27-2011, 06:30 PM	#21
Suburban Rhythm Pro Starter Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Pittsburgh	Pumpy I've heard that you offered an organ to Kathy Griffin, and went as far as trying to cram it inside her yourself. __________________ "Do you guys play fast tempos with odd time signatures?" "Yeah" "Cool!!"

03-27-2011, 08:08 PM	#24
EagleFan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Mays Landing, NJ USA	Selling of organs opens up too much of a slippery slope and in so many different directions. __________________ The EagleFan YouTube Channel - Reactions Soarin' & Scratchin' YouTube Channel - We react to music, videos, TV, we talk, we are planning some field trips Soarin' & Soothin' - Meditation, Relaxation, and Sleep Aid; mental health is important

03-27-2011, 01:36 AM	#2
Apathetic Lurker College Prospect Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Buffalo,NY	Why not? The organs are theirs to sell if they want

03-27-2011, 02:29 AM	#3
Radii Head Coach Join Date: Jul 2001	This was discussed in superfreakanomics I think in a section on altruism? It swayed me, we should do it here.

03-27-2011, 02:42 AM	#4
MrBug708 Head Coach Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Whittier	What would happen if a person sold their kidney, spent their money, and their one remaining kidney failed? Would Jude Law come busting down your door when you fell behind on the payments?

03-27-2011, 06:26 AM	#5
SteveMax58 College Starter Join Date: Dec 2006	Well, I think in its purest sense, why not? But there seem to be a lot of potential slippery slopes that I would worry about & maybe some degree of mortgaging your future could result. For instance...should a (apparently) healthy 20 year old be able to sell half of their kidney? They may be the ideal candidate (from the recipient's perspective) but should that option really be available to them, given that they may need it 40 years from now? Its one thing to donate it to your sick brother who needs it to live....its quite another to sell it to a stranger (even if thats via a government entity) just so you can pay for college tuition or to buy a car. Its sort of the same reason prostitution isn't legal, isn't it? I think there is a name for this type of dilemma but it escapes me this early in the morning (maybe some more coffee will help). I'd also wonder what side effects this ultimately bring s to society. Do we end up with a poor class that not only has no money, but also has missing organs now? I dont know how to precisely illustrate it...but it conjures up images of post-apocalyptic wastelands where poor people have scars where they sold their organs years ago while mega-wealthy people can simply buy their next organ to replace their old one due to excessive lifestyle. I know that would not be the intention of this...and you can certainly set restrictions to it...but I'm not sure it doesn't happen anyway(or eventually).

03-27-2011, 07:10 AM	#6
RainMaker Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chicago, IL	Prostitution is an interesting comparision. Similar in a lot of ways. We're allowed to do it on our own with consenting adults, but not if money is involved. I guess the primary difference would be that this could actually save lives. I guess it is a tough decision as to whether a healthy 20 year old should be allowed to sell one of his kidneys. He may need it 40 years from now, but someone else needs it now. If there is another 20 year old who would die without it, you'd still be in a net positive in years saved. An interesting article here shows that donors have relatively the same mortality rate as non-donors. Since it is relatively new, we probably have to wait a bit for longer term rates, but in the short term, it seems pretty damn safe. Study finds that kidney donation does not increase long-term death rates - TIME Healthland The exploitave nature of it would be concerning. But is it anymore exploitative than the military? We do target lower income kids and entice them with opportunity. There is a risk of death involved. You're also giving these kids an opportunity to go to college or buy a home or whatever else that they may not have had. So is it really that much different? If someone determines the risk is worth being able to go to college and raise a family, why not? And while many join the military for patriotic reasons, I'm sure there are others who would donate for the reason of saving a life.

03-27-2011, 07:58 AM	#8
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	I don't see the fact that the 20 year old may need a kidney in 40 years as a discouraging factor. In the current system, yes, where needing a kidney can be a lifethreatening situation due to low organ donations. But if in 40 years you could depend on buying one from some other 20 year old, then there's less worry for you and for society as a whole it seems.

03-27-2011, 09:42 AM	#9
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	This is a 20th century debate. The debate should be on why we aren't moving forward with the type of research that can lead to growing kidneys and other organs.

03-27-2011, 12:09 PM	#14
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	Well I think in terms of organ donation the majority of people who get organs have a lot of life left. It isn't like we are extending the lives of 85 year old people. My Mother in Law had a heart transplant and I for one am grateful for modern medicine and the person who was her organ donor that gave the ultimate gift. So while you or others may bitch about overpopulation, every life extended is someones mother, daughter, or grandmother that will now get to spend precious time with a loved one.

03-27-2011, 12:13 PM	#16
TroyF Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	This was discussed in SuperFreakonimics and I've always wondered why this was a big deal. It's your body part, do as you please with it.

03-27-2011, 01:05 PM	#18
johnnyshaka College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Edmonton, AB	Why not pump more money into finding a way to "artificially" create or develop organs...through cloning or some other scientific means?

03-27-2011, 01:19 PM	#19
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	Yeah, Pumpy, why not?

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