Mad Men Season 4 Discussion

[stevew]

I wonder if the Manson family is going to carve up Megan and then crash the airplane.

Or maybe they get hijacked by DB Cooper.

Will be interesting if anything leaks from the 2nd half if the season now that it's in the can.

[Suicane75]

That dance. My heart melted. I know it would be too cliche for Don and Peggy to end up together but dear lord was that something.

[OldGiants]

My wife was laughing/shouting at all the digs at Peggy. "Smartest woman in advertising", etc. Plus I used to wear a sport coat like Pete's when we first met, so there is that to laugh at.

I got more of a father/daughter vibe out of Don and Peggy's dance. But the ending was great. I also remember that General Foods acquired Burger Chef and couldn't do anything with it. Important to remember that Burger Chef is a real loser, way behind MacDonald's and Burger King. Plus Sinatra singing "My way" made me think of the old Burger King jingle "Have it Your Way." As if that was what Peggy should have come up with.

Bob Benson rescuing the GM guy was how I recall the NYC homosexual scene from back then. The newspapers, when they mentioned it all, played up the violence aspect. Bob Crane's death on the west coast type of stuff. No gay household tips on TV, to say the least.

[Radii]

Wonderful mid-season finale. Just absolutely great performances from Kiernan Shipka, Jon Hamm, John Slattery, AND Elisabeth Moss.

Spoiler

RIP Bert. Good sendoff for him.

Harry Crane screwed again. I LOL'd (literally) when Roger told him to get out of his office, too late.

I can't wait to see Lou Avery get kicked to the curb in the second half. We'd better get to see that and not just skip past it!

Is this the last time we see Megan?

I've probably said it 5 or 6 times in this thread... but Kiernan Shipka remains my favorite child actor of all time. Sally Draper is simply a marvelous character, I love every single second of screen time she gets, even if it means we have to see more of Betty.

If I could wish for anytying for the final seven episodes, it would be for Don to consistently treat Peggy like he has for the last two episodes. I fear that he'll go back to being inconsistent and will be a huge dick once he's got some power again, and its going to make me really sad when it happens, even if its only for a few moments here and there.

Until next year!

[ISiddiqui]

It's been aired everywhere, I'm don't think spoilers are necessary so, I won't use the tag.

I really enjoyed that episode! A great ending to the half season and Robert Morse dancing and singing just was the perfect capper (IMO). I almost forgot about Meredith trying to 'comfort' Don because there was just so much great stuff in the episode (in another episode that may have been one of the more commented on things - how hilarious was that?).

Peggy really nailed that pitch. That was fantastic stuff. And Roger made one heck of a last second deal. I think while we are focused on this half-season being the redemption of Don - it was also the redemption of Peggy and Roger (at least from where they were in Episode 1 of this season).

[Logan]

Enjoyed the finale and the last few episodes. Still don't like the break for a show like this, because it's not "pick up where we left off" like Breaking Bad.

[OldGiants]

I've been waiting for Robert Morse to have his Broadway moment, and thought it would never get here. For 83, he still has what made him a giant on the stage during the Mad Men era. I'll be watching How To Succeed again this weekend.

In addition to all the great moments already mentioned, I found Sally looking like a young Betty, right down to the smoking gestures, to be awesome. If not for Bert's dance, this would have been the highlight for me.

Having lived through the Moon Landing, I can't really come up with a similar 'bring-the-world-together moment' at any other point in my life. That is, we all knew the moon mission was coming for years. We watched all the satellite launches and such. Every body planned to be in front of the TV, it wasn't like 9/11 or Va Tech (examples) where something happened and we all watched.

Loved Cutler putting up his hand "That's a lot of money!"

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by OldGiants

In addition to all the great moments already mentioned, I found Sally looking like a young Betty, right down to the smoking gestures, to be awesome. If not for Bert's dance, this would have been the highlight for me.

In one of the recent episodes (where Don drove her back to school and opened up to her at the diner), there were a few moments where I noticed how they've done such a good job at having her mirror Betty's speech patterns even. It's good stuff.

Originally Posted by OldGiants

Having lived through the Moon Landing, I can't really come up with a similar 'bring-the-world-together moment' at any other point in my life. That is, we all knew the moon mission was coming for years. We watched all the satellite launches and such. Every body planned to be in front of the TV, it wasn't like 9/11 or Va Tech (examples) where something happened and we all watched.

I wonder if it's just because I was in the area (was in NJ the day it happened but started working in NYC *that* week) but the world felt palpably different for a few days. The scale of buildings seemed incredible again, everyone was talking to each other, etc.

One of the most vivid days of my life, without question.

I just don't know if that felt the same to someone living in Nebraska, etc. It probably didn't.

The almost infinite options of entertainment we have these days has unfortunately made that kind of moment where the world all stops unlikely to ever happen again.

[Logan]

One episode to go.

Funny to see stevew making a DB Cooper reference at the top of this page when that "theory" got a lot of press a week ago.

[ISiddiqui]

A great, great penultimate episode. Making the viewers feel sadness for Betty was simply genius stuff. And being happy for Pete... who would have thunk?

[kcchief19]

Am I the only one suspicious of Pete's new job? Duck Phillips is setting Pete up with a golden parachute -- why? He can't be getting enough of a cut to make up for getting Pete such a great deal -- everything is coming up Pete right now, and history has shown that just when Pete looks like a winner, he gets punched in the nuts.

Still seems like Don is a more than an episode away from getting his conclusion. A lot needs to happen next week.

[Bigsmooth]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Am I the only one suspicious of Pete's new job? Duck Phillips is setting Pete up with a golden parachute -- why? He can't be getting enough of a cut to make up for getting Pete such a great deal -- everything is coming up Pete right now, and history has shown that just when Pete looks like a winner, he gets punched in the nuts.

Still seems like Don is a more than an episode away from getting his conclusion. A lot needs to happen next week.

Agreed. Something is going to blow up regarding Pete. The last 3 episodes have been amazing.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Still seems like Don is a more than an episode away from getting his conclusion. A lot needs to happen next week.

I think so, too, especially with Peggy, Roger, Joan, Stan, Harry, Ted, Henry, Betty, and the kids all needing some sort of conclusion that doesn't seem to have happened yet.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Am I the only one suspicious of Pete's new job?

Yeah. I don't remember the history of the show enough to remember if Duck has that much reason to pull something huge on Pete just to fuck with him or not, but it smells like it to me.

Still seems like Don is a more than an episode away from getting his conclusion. A lot needs to happen next week.

I dunno, I am thinking this *is* Don's conclusion maybe. He's quit his job and career, doesn't need the money there, he's gonna end up a repairman or something.

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I think so, too, especially with Peggy, Roger, Joan, Stan, Harry, Ted, Henry, Betty, and the kids all needing some sort of conclusion that doesn't seem to have happened yet.

I think Roger, Joan, Stan, Ted, Henry, and Betty have gotten their conclusions. We may have seen all of them for the last time. Maybe not, maybe Don comes back to NY and interacts with a bunch of them one last time, but Roger's sendoff was with Peggy in the old office. Joan has a relationship and half the money, which is sadly probably the best she was ever going to get. Ted doesn't want to lead and is happy to just go fit in somewhere. Henry/Betty... we don't need to see how that ends to know how it ends. They could all fail to appear in the last episode and I think we'd comfortably know their endings, from the show's perspective.

The only question to me is Peggy. Is her walking triumphantly into the new office her ending?

I have no expectations. My guess is that we are basically done with everyone but Don and Peggy, and maybe Roger. But honestly, this last episode could be 100% Don and I wouldn't be terribly surprised.




The Megan episode was a huge dud to me, the rest since then have been wonderful I thought.

[ISiddiqui]

Well the last episode is called "Person to Person". The only way I can see each person to person moment would be at Betty's funeral. Or perhaps it is a reference to McCann wanting to meet with Don person to person to decide what to do with him.

[Abe Sargent]

I thought this title was "Mad Max 4 Discussion" and it was going to have some great Fury Road comments

[Logan]

I don't know if Pete's job will work out or not but I think we're done with his story. It seems more likely that it will hypothetically fall apart somewhere down the road once he/they realize they don't want to live in Wichita or Pete gets bored with married life again.

[Pyser]

very odd wrap up season. if you didnt know the next episode was its last, i dont think you could ever guess the show was almost over based on what's going on

quite a rapid wrap up for betty, that progressed fast. not sure i really like shoehorning that all in the 2nd to last episode

at this point it looks to me like the show ends with the return of dick whitman, no?

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by Pyser

very odd wrap up season. if you didnt know the next episode was its last, i dont think you could ever guess the show was almost over based on what's going on

quite a rapid wrap up for betty, that progressed fast. not sure i really like shoehorning that all in the 2nd to last episode

at this point it looks to me like the show ends with the return of dick whitman, no?

I don't know, I'd actually argue they have been setting up finishes for the characters. Or maybe that's poor wording, but setting up the next large chapter of the characters' lives? Pete taking another job, moving, and getting back together with Trudy. Joan taking the buyout to leave McCann. Betty's end-of-life. I don't know, I've enjoyed this season.

[Pyser]

randomly caught some of s1 ep 8 last night in amc's mad men marathon, where in flashbacks the hobo stays at dick's childhood farm for a night.

the hobo has a scene where he talks about how he used to have it all: a wife, a mortgage, a job, but he couldnt sleep at night. he walked away from it all, each day is an adventure on the road, and now he's happy.

hmm...

[OldGiants]

We watched the last two episodes last night and tonight, and my wife's one word comment as the credits began to roll on the final scene was "perfect" and I agreed.

So the rest of you?

[Radii]

I really, really liked it. I honestly thought we might only see Don, or Don and Peggy, in the finale, so getting a further ending for everyone else was really enjoyable. I thought the closure for everyone made sense, even for Peggy and Stan, they've shown enough of them that I get that completely even if it was a surprise. I loved that we got one more line from Roger that made me laugh out loud "I actually met her through Megan, she's old enough to be her mother. In fact, she is her mother" delivered Roger style. And everything that happened with Don makes total sense for Don given what we've seen with him. I thoroughly enjoyed seeing Christina Hendricks in a bathing suit, and am so much happier with the ending we got for Joan here than the one we would have gotten had her story ended a couple episodes ago. Overall a very satisfying and enjoyable hour+ to close out a great show.

[AENeuman]

Amazing. You go to retreats to find yourself, and that's what Don did.

[thesloppy]

It's funny to think of the whole series as a fictional origin story for a single ad.

[stevew]

Loved the Manson inclusion in there. I never really watched the show weekly but I've seen a fair amount to know sorta what was going on

[OldGiants]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

It's funny to think of the whole series as a fictional origin story for a single ad.

Not just any ad, but THE AD, what is widely considered the greatest ad campaign ever.

And it is not all that fictional, this captured the background of what was going on in America and explained why the ad was so great. Why the ad worked is explained by the last two episodes, indeed, the entire series. So it is by no means trivial.

In many ways this episode should have been called "The Real Thing". Betty's death is the real truth, Peggy says "Really?" when Stan tells her he loves her, then they are shown together with the "Real Thing." Pete and Trudy go to Wichita seeking the real thing again, but Trudy is wearing fur, and they are taking a Lear jet, so that won't work out. Roger finds The Real Thing with Marie, who now looks just like his first wife, Mona.

What's also going on for me is the complete rejection of California culture. The guy --the only one dressed in an East Coast fashion--who tells the story comparing himself to a bottle of Coke in the refrigerator who is over looked but wants to be loved for his genuine qualities, is embraced by Don. Then, while chanting that most absurd of Cali notions "Om" Don stops, smiles and we see the most successful commercial in history. So Don took California and -- to use today's term -- monetized it for Coca-Cola.

Also, remember Joan's guy offers her coke, false coke, that gives them a euphoric high that proves false. Stan tells Peggy, "you're mean when you drink", then he gets real about his feelings, and they find happiness.

[Logan]

I liked the final three minutes or whatever it was but hated pretty much everything else up to that point. So I thought it was a good way to finalize the series but thought the episode itself completely sucked. Pretty much everything with Don in the commune bored me and I thought the Peggy/Stan love story conclusion was complete cheese. It was funny...as that phone call started, I said to my wife that what made Weiner great was that he resisted putting them together and wouldn't feel pressured to come up with a sappy ending for the two of them.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by OldGiants

What's also going on for me is the complete rejection of California culture.

Dude, you have issues. Seek help.

Originally Posted by OldGiants

No, that would be the coach of the United Cocksuckers of Los Angeles when he didn't even shake the hand of the Virigina coach after UVA won its seventh Men's Soccer National Championship. All he could do was whine about Virginia not letting his team play their game.

What a tool, the epitome of United Cocksuckers sports.

Originally Posted by OldGiants

Kentucky 24 The United Cocksuckers of Los Angeles 0

Typical gutless performance from the Californians.

Originally Posted by OldGiants

No PAC TWAT teams. Ever.

Originally Posted by OldGiants

1962 Rose bowl, USC 42 Wisconsin 37 The California C*cks*ckers had a huge lead and then Ron VanderKelen and Pat Richter began hooking up on passes and Wisc almost came all the way back. The first time I can ever remember seeing looks of actual panic on athletes was the closeups on the C*cks*ckers sideline as Wisconsin drove to yet another 4th quarter score.

Sorry for the threadjack. Long live Don Draper.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by OldGiants

So the rest of you?

I've only watched mostly vicariously through my wife for several seasons but am up to speed on the ending & most of the twists & turns taken en route.

The advertising folks in my life all seem to have it as a "he found his true calling" ending. My takeaway was more like "there really is no escape".

Take whatever personal insights from that you choose.

[cthomer5000]

The whole "refrigerator" speech felt very deus ex machina to me, if the intended effect is to crystallize the mental state of Don.

However, if it's just another example of Don as observer, rather than participant in "real life" than I'm OK with it.

Basically if it's supposed to be "that's exactly how I feel!" I think it's kind of bullshit. If it's another example of Don co-opting the life of another to inspire himself, I think it's good. It's vague enough that I don't really know what the intent is (which Is actually a good thing on it's own).

Ultimately I like the cynical take on Don. He isn't really capable of change. He just sort of bottoms out and then starts again. Hitting rock bottom and trying to come clean to himself doesn't seem to create any real change... it just ends up inspiring another ad idea.

As for some of the other wrap-ups... I'm not sure they all felt 100% honest to the characters, but they were all close enough.

[Pyser]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

The whole "refrigerator" speech felt very deus ex machina to me, if the intended effect is to crystallize the mental state of Don.

However, if it's just another example of Don as observer, rather than participant in "real life" than I'm OK with it.

Basically if it's supposed to be "that's exactly how I feel!" I think it's kind of bullshit. If it's another example of Don co-opting the life of another to inspire himself, I think it's good. It's vague enough that I don't really know what the intent is (which Is actually a good thing on it's own).

Ultimately I like the cynical take on Don. He isn't really capable of change. He just sort of bottoms out and then starts again. Hitting rock bottom and trying to come clean to himself doesn't seem to create any real change... it just ends up inspiring another ad idea.

As for some of the other wrap-ups... I'm not sure they all felt 100% honest to the characters, but they were all close enough.

well said. im hard pressed to think of another show where the main character doesnt change. at all. there's nothing in this last episode that says don changed his life one iota, which is pretty fascinating when you think we watched him for like 100 episodes and he's still the same guy as at the start.

[Jas_lov]

I didn't like it. Peggy and Stan was disgusting. I love you. WHAT? I love you. WHAT? I love you. WHAT DID YOU SAY? That was awful. The other stuff wasn't that good either. Weiner could have ended it a lot better.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Jas_lov

I didn't like it. Peggy and Stan was disgusting. I love you. WHAT? I love you. WHAT? I love you. WHAT DID YOU SAY? That was awful. The other stuff wasn't that good either. Weiner could have ended it a lot better.

I think the problem inherent to finales is that many storylines that would feel completely plausible (within the reality of the TV show) feel like BS when a bunch of them happen at the same time.

While I find Peggy-Stan to be plausible long-term, it had a 50% "bullshit!" and 50% "I can see completely see that" vibe to it. I see both reactions to it and accept them as completely legitimate.

[Suicane75]

I loved the ending. Peggy/Stan has been building forever, they just haven't been cliched about it. Don is Don, always was, always gonna be.

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

When Don bottoms out again, instead of the hershey's pitch, it will be the "new coke" campaign.

[stevew]

Hey guys, I got this great idea! We use iconic rock superstars Van Halen to launch this Crystal Pepsi stuff. Right now!

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I loved the ending. Peggy/Stan has been building forever, they just haven't been cliched about it. Don is Don, always was, always gonna be.

Peggy's "I feel you here" as she put her hand over her heart was as cliche as it gets.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by Logan

Peggy's "I feel you here" as she put her hand over her heart was as cliche as it gets.

Completely disagree, but it's cool. I think for a person as analytical as Peggy, it's exactly something she would do in that moment.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Logan

Peggy's "I feel you here" as she put her hand over her heart was as cliche as it gets.

I think that particular scene is incredibly well-written (and insanely well acted). The only thing up for debate is whether or not it's true to that character.

[ISiddiqui]

I loved the finale, FWIW, and the more I think about it, the more I love it. I think that it is in both parts that Don finds himself and that Don goes back and makes an ad campaign over his experience, which isn't mutually exclusive. He realizes that he needs to embrace his inner Dick Whitman and not run away from himself. He realizes deep down that he is an ad man - he loves it.

I also enjoyed the rest of the episode. Peggy and Stan didn't seem too ridiculous. I mean if this showed up a few episodes ago, I doubt people would have gotten too bent out of shape about it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Pyser

well said. im hard pressed to think of another show where the main character doesnt change. at all. there's nothing in this last episode that says don changed his life one iota, which is pretty fascinating when you think we watched him for like 100 episodes and he's still the same guy as at the start.

Indirectly, I think that's a key point in the takes on the finale I've seen from advertising people. That he, basically, remembered who he was. And it's a group that can be largely incapable of significant change. You're either that animal or you aren't, they're born not made, etc etc.

[OldGiants]

Originally Posted by Pyser

well said. im hard pressed to think of another show where the main character doesnt change. at all. there's nothing in this last episode that says don changed his life one iota, which is pretty fascinating when you think we watched him for like 100 episodes and he's still the same guy as at the start.

Richard Russo is a terrific novelist who has had several of novels turned into movies or HBO series (Empire Falls, being one example) most often with Paul Newman in the starring old guy role. Russo's major theme in all his novels is that "people never change; they just get older."

I think that's what we saw with almost everybody in Mad Men. People made the same kind of mistakes, they simply had more money to try to buy their way out. And that's the way life really happens.

[Pyser]

reminds me of anthony burgess, who wrote A Clockwork Orange, talking about his frustrations of the movie cutting out the last chapter of the book:

There is no hint of this change of intention in the twentieth chapter. The boy is conditioned, then deconditioned, and he forsees with glee a resumption of the operation of free and violent will. ‘I was cured all right,’ he says, and so the American book ends. So the film ends too. The twenty-first chapter gives the novel the quality of genuine fiction, an art founded on the principle that human beings change. There is, in fact, not much point in writing a novel unless you can show the possibility of moral transformation, or an increase in wisdom, operating in your chief character or characters. Even trashy bestsellers show people changing. When a fictional work fails to show change, when it merely indicates that human character is set, stony, unregenerable, then you are out of the field of the novel and into that of the fable or the allegory.

i find that pretty interesting, as it relates to don not changing.

[OldGiants]

Yes, novel writing courses emphasize change, however, in real life folks don't change all that much. Nor do they on TV shows. So perhaps TV shows fall into the fable category--nothing wrong with that.

Three great shows ended recently and in all of them the main characters did not change but their circumstances did. In addition to MAD MEN, JUSTIFIED also demonstrated that the main characters did not change at all. Boyd and Raylon 'dug coal together'. Ava's issue is that she could not leave Harlan County. Even Boyd's son buttons his shirt all the way to the top. In PARKS AND REC, Leslie Knope's unflagging optimism is the lynch pin of all the stories and what holds the characters together.

In TV that fails, the characters change. BACKSTROM is an example. An excellent cast with solid actors and characters, yet because the main character is a drunk who winds trying to change himself by joining AA, the series flops. I think it is because Backstrom gave up trying to be himself and gave in.